Indian Army Discussion

[rakall]

Unfortunately sometimes that not a good idea. One defends the ARmy when it comes to J&K , NE etc.

But if society feels that the army is following some outmoded habits of our former colonial rulers - it has a right.

Now some maybe fine - eg. regimental breakup and others may not be. Sahayak

But Somnath is right - this is a real trivial matter in the scheme of things but an indication of coming battles.
The Army brass need to anticipate these and decide what to fight. If they fight this - it will be a PR nightmare

It is unwarranted to single out army on the issue of sahayak's..

Have you ever considered how the IAS or IPS treat their 'sahayak's? Why - have you considered how even an MRO or an Irrgation engineer or how even the health inspector of a town treats his staff? A health inspector used to rent my parent's house -- his staff would come to clean his toilets !!!

It it is a malice -- then it exists in every single pore of this society.. It is wrong to single out the army..

Why ? We had two MP's manhandling/slapping public servants in public, under full glare of cameras within 2 weeks -- how do you condone that? How do you condone the fact that elite NSG guard stupid politicians just bcoz they voted for a certain party in trust vote -- and for that they have to run alongside the car while the VIP drives in it?? That is worse than the sahayak issue..

[Surya]

It feels like groundhog day.

and rakall of all people

Could you please go and read my other posts and see the context?

[RayC]

Groundhog day?

Someone saw the shadow and scampered back in the hole

God said let there be light and there was light!

[rakall]

It feels like groundhog day.

and rakall of all people

Could you please go and read my other posts and see the context?

Boss - I have been reading all posts..

My reply is not necessarily directed against you - I just happened to quote your post.. When i said "you" in my post, it did not mean "you" = Surya.. but, "you" = all of us.... each one of us.

Its just the bile that comes out once in a while -- bcoz the fault lies in every section of the society & and here we are taking the specific issue of sahayak's which insinuates the army...Any system is as good or as bad as we make it.. one cannot take a "few typical" examples as the norm... However, if that is a fight that had to be taken up against babus & politicians fist.. Obviously - if we had the power we could change many things in society.. Unfortunately the power lies with people who need the change..

ofcourse, I would feel the same anger against the army whenever the DGMF/DGMO make statements aginst the Arjun..
Even with Emraan Hashmi saying " I didnt get a house bcoz I am a muslim".. If he did more of serious acting & less of scmooczing on the screen & his illustrious uncle did more meaningful cinema than the semi-ponr stuff -- people would have had better opinion of them..

If we so much have a problem with sahayak's -- just give all those who need them, a washing machine, dishwasher & a lawnmower and be done with... but for some the sahayk could also be a buddy & extended family - also give a thought to how to replace them..

[RayC]

It surprises me when my shayaks (still in service and now JCOs) ring me up at their expense and have long chats with me, my family including my children who are grown up and working.

I can do no favours now.

Why those who are from North India and Maharastra come and visit us and stay with us, when they have no reason or connection with Kolkata?

Funny!

After all, as per your perception they should not. The officers are but tyrants, right?

[Surya]

Np Rakall

We all agree that if this issue were not brought up - we are by and large not overly concerned about it.

But in the future if the issue comes up again (and something tells me it will) - then the question is - should the army fight to retain it?

My view is No- its a losing battle to pick up because you will be isolated with no one to back you.


And in the process of giving up the Army can make all the arguments ASP, you etc make - all valid and try to strip those guys(IAS,IPS) of all their perks too.


What you are seeing is the start of a long battle (between IAS,IPS and the Armed forces) and the services top brass will need to grow a spine and think through long term how they are going to fight this.

[rakall]

Np Rakall

We all agree that if this issue were not brought up - we are by and large not overly concerned about it.

But in the future if the issue comes up again (and something tells me it will) - then the question is - should the army fight to retain it?

My view is No- its a losing battle to pick up because you will be isolated with no one to back you.


And in the process of giving up the Army can make all the arguments ASP, you etc make - all valid and try to strip those guys(IAS,IPS) of all their perks too.


What you are seeing is the start of a long battle (between IAS,IPS and the Armed forces) and the services top brass will need to grow a spine and think through long term how they are going to fight this.

For an officer posted at border areas -- some of them very much uninhabited areas where no help is available, while the officer is more worried about guarding the borders - he might need help with some of his daily stuff... and that is the reason why they might need sahayak''s... Sometimes they may have to spend longtimes without family, many times their kids have to be transported to a school that is very far off -- there is a need for sahayak's.. There are many such instances which do require the officer to have a sahayak...

It is obvious that in a few cases the system gets put to wrongful means.. some might treat their sahayk's as bonded labor.. but that is should not be considered the norm..

Now - what we could question is whether an officer living in Bangalore cantonment needs a sahayak? Or whether a babu living in national/state/districk capital needs a sahayak? In such cases it might be worthy to consider & probably better to do away with the govt appointed/provided sahayk's, and let the officer/babu employ private domesitic help.. and pay the officer/babu an allowance for the same..

But.. in forward areas, in some of the army settlements - where the nearest 'small town' is far away, there are numerous instances where an officer would be better taken care of by a sahayak..

[negi]

The problem is people tend to take these issues to heart ; the reason why issues with sahayak is brought up not because we 'think/believe' that they are being exploited ; the simple question is are they required or even indispensable in IA of today ?
And why do the folks here have to become so defensive and draw an equal equal with IAS or politicos is this what well wishers of the IA are left with to support their pov ?

Brig. Ray I like your posting style passionate and straight from the heart, and seriously my personal opinion on this matter is of little significance hence I only raise questions about the relevance and utility of this system in present day.To answer your concerns No I don't single out commissioned officers for exploiting or ill treating the sahayaks that was never my argument infact one can't use that argument for every system can be defeated or misused.

We raise such issues in IA thread for we hold it in high esteem and believe an appraisal of latter's customs/practices from a civilian pov will not be ridiculed but at least given a patient hearing. If there indeed exist legitimate reasons to persist with the Sahayak system which is indispensable to IA's functioning then those aspects need to be clarified .

If quoting anecdotal references/instances are of any help ,all members of my family has/is served/serving the three services and my concerns do take into account my personal impression about the whole system.

Rakall the very idea of cantonment or a army/navy/af base is to provide all the amenities to the family of service personnel within the premises in a safe environment so that in absence of the bread earner the family can go about their daily chores without hassels.

All IA personnel posted in field have their families stationed in an Army Base which by and large is self sufficient and well equipped to cater to a familiy's needs.

If your arguments are indeed valid then by that logic won't jawans need Sahayaks ? that is why my first post started with the system prevalent during the British Raaj.

[Surya]

Rakall

Let me be the devils advocate here.


In all your scenarios - Are officers needs different from the needs of other IA men in such postings?? All those concerns apply to all men who need to deal with personal family issues or personal issues. Can't you have an alternate system to help out all men?

Last trip to a SF base I met an OR who had not been home for 9 months. His house on the border in J& K was damaged in shelling and the local govt pr$cks were giving him the run around. He does not have enough time to go back and deal with those guys for restoring electricity etc due to the short trips. I would rather figure out a scenario where he could be helped out. If any the travails of ORs are much harder than officers

[nelson]

many a thing in life lie in the border between luxury and comfort or comfort and necessity. whether providing a sahayak is luxury or necessity depends on the circumstance of use( ie if we leave the misuse part of it for the residue of this discussion).

now every person (all humans) have time constraints. everyone in an organisation at his level of hierarchy needs aid to manage time which is constantly in short supply. now for eg, a company commander with 125 ratings under him can ill afford to waste time in mundane things of daily routine. at the same time he can not set low standards of personal example in matters of dress or living in front of his men.

somewhere the system devised by elders(you may want tocall imperialists) offers via media where one out of the 125- suitably junior, pliant but smart enough to manage certain chores for the officer. the time saved is utilised for the benefit of the company if seen in isolation and the organisation and nation if seen holistically. like, if a compamy commander can hear out/address one additional person from his company in a day in lieu of wasting time in trivial activities of daily routine that company stands to benefit immensely, as i see.

this has been in practice for six decades of independent India also and will be officially authorised as long as the army is able to convince the govt/ people through whatever means. no one is immune to change.

there are some misconceptions about the authorisation which may be dispelled by knowing the following.

- there is scale of sahayak, set forth by army order. it is one jawan for each officer from the rank of lieutenant to general, nothing more or less. ranks above colonel do have an enhanced scale of personal staff, but not sahayaks.
- jcos are authorised sahyaks too. however at a fractional scale. one between two subedars or between three naib subedars. again not as a privilege or comfort but a measure to enhance his efficacy of work at his level in hierarchy.
- the aid is available only to those posted as part of batallion or regiment. but it does overflow to officers in staff and instructional appointments.
- one employed as sahayak continues to do his soldierly duties including training and is usually given ample chance to further his professional career.
- there is a set of rules to be followed in employing sahayaks which are generally adhered to.

thanks

[rakall]

Rakall the very idea of cantonment or a army/navy/af base is to provide all the amenities to the family of service personnel within the premises in a safe environment so that in absence of the bread earner the family can go about their daily chores without hassels.


All IA personnel posted in field have their families stationed in an Army Base which by and large is self sufficient and well equipped to cater to a familiy's needs.

.

Atleast we have now moved to the crux of the problem..

The army base being self-sufficient & well equipped to a family's needs is not always true.. A cantonment area in Bangalore or Bhopal might be.. but not necessarily in many army bases/posts.. and that is where there is a utility role for sahayak's..

I was visited my sainik school senior's who were posted in such a location - about 4-5hrs from Siliguri, near Damdim tea estate... it was an ASC depot supplying to forward posts (that were much forward) and it was like a godforsaken place.. there was no humanity or civilization -- you cant get a thing.. Now imagine what would be the plight in forward posts..

Whatever I have expressed is from what I have seen during that short time...Sometimes we feel many things in Army are archaic or inhuman, but for some of the things (atleast some) they do seem to have a good reason..

For Ex- while i was there I saw some jawan's constantly gardening.. and I asked why? The reply was "otherwise they will get ideas.. idlebrain is a devil's worskhop.. if they are idle - they will either get suicidal tendencies or think about insubordination.. both dont work in war.. the best way to keep them mentally prepared when they are not training is to keep them occupied"...

If your arguments are indeed valid then by that logic won't jawans need Sahayaks ? that is why my first post started with the system prevalent during the British Raaj.

Obviously Indian army (or any army) doest really club jawans & officers in the same category, right? That no means is discounting the contribution/sacrifices that the jawans make..

But look at the ratio of officers to jawans (40 to 1 or something).. look at the selection procedure for officers vs jawans.. offciers dont get through SSB and get trained in NDA+IMA for nothing.. Indian army places lot more value on its officers, bcoz they lead from the front.. With great respect for the jawans & due reagrd for them, it is a fact that army does place more importance to officers because of their job profile...

Yes.. jawans need better protection, better facilities, better everything.. being the poorer lot from poor families - they need more govt support, especially interms of social security and what we could provide to their families.. but, that is a larger battle and a different fight... it was disgusting that even families of martyr's (especially jawans) are neglected and that is a fight that needs all our support..

[rakall]

Rakall

Let me be the devils advocate here.


In all your scenarios - Are officers needs different from the needs of other IA men in such postings?? All those concerns apply to all men who need to deal with personal family issues or personal issues. Can't you have an alternate system to help out all men?

Last trip to a SF base I met an OR who had not been home for 9 months. His house on the border in J& K was damaged in shelling and the local govt pr$cks were giving him the run around. He does not have enough time to go back and deal with those guys for restoring electricity etc due to the short trips. I would rather figure out a scenario where he could be helped out. If any the travails of ORs are much harder than officers

I have partially answered this in my previous post... but let me put it in a different sense..

Yes.. tha jawans needs more assistance than the officers, bcoz they tend to be from poorer families and have more challenges w.r.t basic amenities in life...

and, YES they do need a sahayak -- that sahayak has to be the govt itself.. they need a sahayak to provide social security & basic support to their families when they are on duty.. and that sahayak has to be the govt/MoD... That is the sahayak that they need & should get..

[Surya]

nelson

so far the most logical explanation. thanks

of course what is a daily mundane routine could be the issue.

once again playing the devils advocate

What is the difference of the mundane routines that lets say a company commander in the IA does vs the company commander in the British army or the Israeli Army?? Are the efficiencies of those armies any less?? Are the British living with a lower level of appearance??

Interesting comparison along the lines. Couple of the IAF pilots who came in as part of the exchange program to the USAF had some interesting comments (one happened tobe my classmate). He would spend long hours before returning home when in the US but would return earlier in India. The reason according to him was the amount of paperwork he had to fill out after the sorties etc. In India he does a much smaller portion and the rest is handled by designated staff.

[Surya]

rakall

Flip side of it

Maybe the officer handles a lot of unnecessary things which really do not need his oversight?? Maybe that can be farmed off to others? A lot of it could be carry over from the days when the most of the ORs were less educated - they are a lot different now.

[rakall]

rakall

Flip side of it

Maybe the officer handles a lot of unnecessary things which really do not need his oversight?? Maybe that can be farmed off to others? A lot of it could be carry over from the days when the most of the ORs were less educated - they are a lot different now.

thats whole point.. innit? I mean i cant guess how mcuh has changed interms of the roles bcoz the troops are more educated.. the roles havent changed much.. have they?

The officers still have to handle the lot.. from getting the recon reports, making sense of them, foresee enemy plans, strategize, plan patrols/watches, keep his men together, motivate them all the stuff.. thats where the role for sahayak's is.. just bcoz the offciers job profile needs him to take care of a lot more, a sahayak would help in the day to day stuff..

but, ofcourse, especially for cases of inland postings - the role of sahayak's probably needs to be reconsidered..

[nelson]

there is little credence in comparing similar institutions of varied nations or varied institution within the same country. if there are good points/ practices one can sure emulate or atleast try to.

if someone else is not doing a job in the way you are doing it, that does not mean your way of doing it is worthless.
a practice has been handed over through generations of existence of an organisation. it purportedly works in the benefit of the organisation as it has done in the past.
there are / would be negatives but the benefits have outweighed them. the negatives are not life-threatening and does not harm the organisation majorly.
so as of now the system may continue as has the govt decided.

with soldiers of this gen Y or next, change there shall be, certainly. but an overnight transformation may do more harm than benefits that may accrue.
this sahayak issue, should be left as an internal matter of the organisation unless there is some(even minutest) grave danger to the national security as whole.

[Surya]

there is little credence in comparing similar institutions of varied nations or varied institution within the same country.

but thats the question that will be asked and like taking the fifth - answering that comparisons are not possible will skew the opinion.

[negi]

Rakall read your posts it is evident that the 'additional work load' is not a governing issue for it is common to both the one having a Sahayak and the others who don't ; the help for the family is never an issue as that is what Army bases are meant for . Your example from Siliguri does not cut in those chaps fresh from Sainik school don't expect to get posted in Chandigarh or Delhi do they ? and moreoever even if they are in field their families are eligible to be allotted a house in residential bases in WB.

The officers still have to handle the lot.. from getting the recon reports, making sense of them, foresee enemy plans, strategize, plan patrols/watches, keep his men together, motivate them all the stuff.. thats where the role for sahayak's is.. just bcoz the offciers job profile needs him to take care of a lot more, a sahayak would help..

Above is an exaggeration to be honest the amount of work is divided pretty evenly if it is not then that is a different topic for discussion; going by the sheer number of personnel serving in IA (we have the second biggest Army in terms of numbers) it is difficult to imagine people complaining about being overworked .

Also please note an officer has men dedicated for carrying out his tasks in the field ; it is the non essential tasks for which a Sahayak is being used is being questioned here. Lets not mix the core operations with the tasks being assigned to the Sahayak.

a practice has been handed over through generations of existence of an organisation
That is the standard mantra for resisting change , and specially for a practice which was NOT devised by the IA but BA under the British rule . I am sure in past 60 years we have progressed enough and the IA has kept up with changing times to acknowledge there are things more important than blindly following a practice, specially one which was put in place by the foreign rulers.

[Picklu]

rakall

but, ofcourse, especially for cases of inland postings - the role of sahayak's probably needs to be reconsidered..

This will come down to it .. sooner or later. The more army appears fighting .. the more of a PR issue it will become giving more ammunition to the media and burocracy. [I know it is unfair but what to do, human beings are like this onlee]

Sensitivity to Collateral damage, Sensitivity to LEGAL human rights, Accepting female cadets(Caveat: I know IA always followed them in spirit, but i am talking in terms of procedure) - all these items were not part of the original organization ethos and the armed force were not any worse (by and large) without them in terms of capability. But these civilian concepts could not be kept out. That is the price to be payed for accepting civilian control.

A PR savy organisation will
a. promptly change the name of the Sahayak post to something like "executive officer" or similar in the field posting for taking care of runner, bodyguard etc functionality
b. appoint civilian contractor to do the chores in inland posting like navy or af do

Will the above solutions solve everything? No. However, it will take the sting away from the media and burocracy. And further fine tuning is always possible to arrive to a better solution.

My two naya paisa.

[nelson]

The entire concept of personnel management in the army devolves on treating an individual in a dignified, honourable and fair manner. The entire structure of leadership in the army is based on camaraderie. Even non-combatants enrolled in jobs that are still considered as menial in large sections of society, were combatised by the Army in 1972 and are treated at par with other soldiers.
In view of the above, the impression of 'British practices' and lack of dignified treatment to any person in the Army is not valid.
Authorisation of sahayaks is a service requirement and not a colonial legacy. The system of providing sahayaks prevailed in all Armies of the world. It is reiterated that if officers and JCOs of the Army are to perform their functions as leaders, they have to be provided with protection and assistance of carrying out their allotted tasks unmindful of personal considerations and problems. A sahayak is a combatant who takes part in all operations and training activities of his unit and is kept fit for war at all times.
The complexity of officer-man relationship and the organisational role of the sahayaks are not normally appreciated by persons viewing the system from outside. Elaborate instructions have been issued on the duties to be performed by Sahayaks. However, more important is the strict code of conduct, which is observed due to regimental affiliations and ethos.

http://164.100.24.208/ls/committeeR/Defence/17.pdf

no one can resist change. no, not the organisation that has been most subservient to the the indian people/ govt in all its years of experience. it is simply incapable of doing it against the wishes of its masters (the people). but there has to be alternatives. that would not be obtained from sourcing it from israel or uk or us. it has to be indigenous.

one probable solution is having non-combatants for such role. but putting civilians at risk in low paying jobs is not impossible but a difficult proposition.
that leaves us with non combatants enrolled. however if there has been conscious decision to abolish non combatants who were previously enrolled/employed in the army there was the cause of social justice which brought about that decision/change. that cause of social justice is "dignity of labour". now, if a soldier of the indian army can be barber, safaiwala, washerman, waiter and masalchi, i do not find any reason why one cannot do so called "menial tasks" of preparing uniform or shining the medals.
now who wants to create a separate class/ trade of soldiers for such duties when a more viable option exists. more viable because a person caught in such trade/ class will be banished to do so for his entire service without any chance of commission.

[Surya]

that would not be obtained from sourcing it from israel or uk or us.

No one is asking for that -


if a soldier of the indian army can be barber, safaiwala, washerman, waiter and masalchi, i do not find any reason why one cannot do so called "menial tasks" of preparing uniform or shining the medals

As long as that can be done for the entire unit. washerman and waiter etc are there to serve the whole unit - so if thats the definition then that will be Ok


Authorisation of sahayaks is a service requirement and not a colonial legacy.

I would love for that to be said in public and see how they handle the questioning on that

[nelson]

Dear Surya,

that would not be obtained from sourcing it from israel or uk or us.

No one is asking for that -

then why compare with them.

if a soldier of the indian army can be barber, safaiwala, washerman, waiter and masalchi, i do not find any reason why one cannot do so called "menial tasks" of preparing uniform or shining the medals

As long as that can be done for the entire unit. washerman and waiter etc are there to serve the whole unit - so if thats the definition then that will be Ok

you can go back to my first post on this page

Authorisation of sahayaks is a service requirement and not a colonial legacy.

I would love for that to be said in public and see how they handle the questioning on that

that is from a report tabled in parliament in 2002, and is in public domain since then. now seven years later, this issue being raked up by media, seen in the context of spc goof ups/ tussle, implies something that does not augur well for the army and therefore the country.
^all this, while i maintain that it will change, give it time and let it be done internally

[Sanku]

Authorisation of sahayaks is a service requirement and not a colonial legacy.

I would love for that to be said in public and see how they handle the questioning on that

It hardly makes the public argument right, in fact given that the public are chiefly characterized by lack of knowledge of military matters, it sounds more like a call to a mob mentality judgment than a measured debate.

And as far as I know this is a open public forum too, so it is being said in public by someone, those who have real issues against the system can do so here too

So far there are arguments for
1) Same EVERYTHING for all officers and men -- what next hand over the Army to PWG style redistribution program?
2) This is from colonial era -- guess what 90% of Army rules are from that and probaly 85% of IPC? Lets throw it all out together? Why not.

Any thing substantive? No Negi did make some substantive points earlier which were replied to in a measured manner before, but now its all muck raking.

Given that all the world of real issues that exist the debate on this one in the press reminds me on Arun Dhoti Suzzane's triade against some poor goat which was killed in Kashmir rather than the sheer butchery of Terrorists.

Its a army issue, let army handle it, enough messes exist which are more important, worry about them first rather than going after something which will create another mess.

Why does no one care about the living quarters issues for Jawans and CMP forces? Why not address issue of not getting enough leave?

No the main angst is reserved for such issues. And Surya will come out hammer and tongs at army where he gets a chance? Any chances of Surya going hammer at tongs at MoD? At Babus? Nope. All ills can be blamed on the gunner chief and his sahayak onlee.

Very simple.

[ramana]

Enough batman discussions. Thanks for all the participation.

ramana

[Surya]

oops

self deleted per ramanas request

Sanku

sorry cannot answer per ramanas request

but if you must bring in my gunner chief arguments please bring in my IPKF arguments etc. How about keeping track of all of these?

Or would you rather just wait for another 20 yrs while the IA gets outgunned in the arty section a prime cause of most of the casualties in Kargil??

[Sanku]

but if you must bring in my gunner chief arguments please bring in my IPKF arguments etc. How about keeping track of all of these?

Or would you rather just wait for another 20 yrs while the IA gets outgunned in the arty section a prime cause of most of the casualties in Kargil??

My complain with that is that these are outside the control of IA at any level. Simple. IA can not control the factors that hurt it. The chief has written about it, there are limits to the pressure he can exert.

And anyway my impression is that the current GoI hardly cares about what any of the chiefs think, they seem to be on their own path.

The solution is to create a political pressure on GoI (note this is independent of the political party in power) we need to think of creating a jingo constituency (not merely a passively nationalist one) but this is OT

[Surya]

Sorry Sanku

In the situation we are - something more drastic needs to be done


IMO - and you have the right to disagree.


Imagine I am a gunner throughout life - I reach the pinnacle of army career - I have been watching in extreme frustration the neglect of this essential arm. I have seen my units scrounging around, cannibalising, shorthanded and still gamely taking on the pukis in Kargil. And since then I see them in even worse situation while the opposite side is adding more.

And all I can do is to write a letter??

what will happen if I make more drama?? They will not give me a Governership. Big deal - What happens if I make a number of public noises non stop from the day I took over. Ok they will pressurize me - and if I do not give in they might try and make me resign. How will that go in public?? As long as I do not make it personal with any party or person - the public will believe me.

Now lets say the next guy who comes in carries on the same vein - what the hell will the Govt do? Sack him too??

It needs sustained pressure and unity and spine by all the top guys. It has to be a succession of chiefs but right now the gunner should have at least more passion for this - I am glad he made at least one statement\letter but I need more.

JMO


NOTE: I had the same opinion about Air Chiefs wrt to the AJT and many argued the same thing - they cannot do much!! - All kept looking for Governerships while lives being lost due to our unbalanced training routine. Even if 10% of those lives could have been saved it would have been worth it. Bloody a$$es. It is only an opinion so take it for what its worth

[ramana]

Ind Exp was reporting the moving back to NE of the 27th div from J&K.

Folks there is stuff going on and can we move on?

[svinayak]

How many new mountain divisions have been raised so far

[negi]

^ It might have to do with the recent demand for reducing the presence of the ARMY and CRPF in the valley .

[RayC]

Sorry Sanku

In the situation we are - something more drastic needs to be done


IMO - and you have the right to disagree.


Imagine I am a gunner throughout life - I reach the pinnacle of army career - I have been watching in extreme frustration the neglect of this essential arm. I have seen my units scrounging around, cannibalising, shorthanded and still gamely taking on the pukis in Kargil. And since then I see them in even worse situation while the opposite side is adding more.

And all I can do is to write a letter??

what will happen if I make more drama?? They will not give me a Governership. Big deal - What happens if I make a number of public noises non stop from the day I took over. Ok they will pressurize me - and if I do not give in they might try and make me resign. How will that go in public?? As long as I do not make it personal with any party or person - the public will believe me.

Now lets say the next guy who comes in carries on the same vein - what the hell will the Govt do? Sack him too??

It needs sustained pressure and unity and spine by all the top guys. It has to be a succession of chiefs but right now the gunner should have at least more passion for this - I am glad he made at least one statement\letter but I need more.

JMO


NOTE: I had the same opinion about Air Chiefs wrt to the AJT and many argued the same thing - they cannot do much!! - All kept looking for Governerships while lives being lost due to our unbalanced training routine. Even if 10% of those lives could have been saved it would have been worth it. Bloody a$$es. It is only an opinion so take it for what its worth

I wonder if the Chiefs do not press an issue because of a Governorship carrot.

It is more because they are worried that they will be turfed out unceremoniously like Admiral Bhagawat. They are also aware that neither the rank and file of the Force will fight for them, nor will the nation. The media will go to town and throw muck around some with imaginative spin and this will besmirch them for life. Therefore, they take the easy way out.

Consider the plight of Admiral Bhagawat.

The only honourable way a Chief, who insist that his way be done, is to resign if it is not done.

How many will do it?

Everyone cannot be like the juniors of Hari Sadu and at that age, even if they have heard of Naukri.com, they would still not get a job!

[Surya]

RayC

Thats why it needs unity amongst the Generals itself so that divide and rule will not work- plus not make the Bhagwat mistake of getting into a personal exchange with GF.

agree hard to put in practice but if a few jolts can be given to the Govt it might be worth it

[RayC]

RayC

Thats why it needs unity amongst the Generals itself so that divide and rule will not work- plus not make the Bhagwat mistake of getting into a personal exchange with GF.

agree hard to put in practice but if a few jolts can be given to the Govt it might be worth it

George was overstepping.

The media went to town and gave it a spin to keep the pot boiling and so you have a different take of the issue and the world will also believe what the media said. Not that Bhagawat was totally in the right!

The 6th Pay Commission error on Lt Cols was corrected only because of Adm Sureesh Mehta, who took a stand!
He Stood Up!

[somnath]

^^^ Anyone wanting to find out more about how influence peddling works between politicians and public servants, please read ex Cab Sec TSR Subramanium's Journey Through Babudom and Netaland...Doesnt cover the services, but pretty sure the pulls and pressures are similar!

As for service chiefs "standing up", I think it is naive to believe that they are "naive"! In fact increasingly the services have gotten very media savvy and are using the same with graet effect where their interests are concerned...Look at the post-Cuba (Indo Pak statement) statements by Gen JJ Singh on Siachen - if there was a whiff of a "political resolution", it was snuffed out..Look at the periodic leaks about Arjun's inadequacies, which the IA clearly doesnt like for whatever reason..Look at Adm Sureesh Mehta's statements about "reoloking at our relations with Russia" on the Gorshkov issue (in this case he was clearly overstepping the line though)..Look at the whole media coverage over 6th CPC...The generals can be quite savvy when they want to!

It is a fact that there are stories "planted" on the other side as well, ones that have real and perceived slights to the services (the sahayak one for example) - but the point is one needs to take the rough with the smooth! You cant use the media so exhaustively, and it should be, and not be at the receiveing end of its ills once in a while...

The point is that the media, barring some very honourable exceptions, lack the expertise to argue on substantive matters of national defence - thats why so many generals have post retirement careers as analysts (TV and print)!

I have been for example, extremely surprised that there has been absolutely zero discussion on the AV Singh committee recos, and the increasing top-heaviness of the services, and its impact on operational efficiency..I posted some data in a post above..

Again, barring the periodic references, there is no substantive discusion on why the CDS is taking so much time to come about - the generals have been brushing it off, the politicians avoiding it - but very few, if at all, have presented a cogent case (even on the other side, why we probably dont need a CDS)...

[somnath]

Good news (who says no news in good news!)

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... army+glory

[RayC]

As for service chiefs "standing up", I think it is naive to believe that they are "naive"! In fact increasingly the services have gotten very media savvy and are using the same with graet effect where their interests are concerned...Look at the post-Cuba (Indo Pak statement) statements by Gen JJ Singh on Siachen - if there was a whiff of a "political resolution", it was snuffed out.

JJ Singh was MMS'man and he was ready to implement it. It is only when the others indicated the folly and reminded him that he would be doing another 1962, he baulked.

What 'political solution' do you visualise that would have solved the Siachen issue?

If it is demilitarisation, what guarantee was there that Pakistan would not occupy the heights at a later date?

One can say there would be a UN type of force enforcing that none occupied the heights. We are well aware how much a UN type of force can enforce.

If Pakistan started occupying and India rushed troops, even if from Leh, these troops would require two stage acclimatisation and that would be too late.

And occupy what? In the Siachen weather, the fortifications crumble fast and requires regular maintenance. Therefore, even if the Indian troops reached, they would be seeing the ruins of their fortification hewed down by weather and they would be exposed to the elements without shelter! Hardly conducive for warfighting!

Therefore, while many delight at such 'peace' ideas and heave a sigh of relief, the reality is different.

If 'Peace at all costs' is the message as was formulated in Sharm al Sheik, then the only solution to Siachen is handing it over in a silver platter to Pakistan.

Any takers for that idea?

Look at the periodic leaks about Arjun's inadequacies, which the IA clearly doesnt like for whatever reason..

Leaks? I thought it was clearly and openly stated.

Glitches were cleared. No one wants a lemon, especially when such lemon will cost them their lives and tarnish their name in case of a war being fought with a lemon!

It is like a banker being told to accept ISI manufactured fake Rs 500 notes and being told it makes no difference since none can tell the difference! I was handed such a note and so I am using this example.

Look at Adm Sureesh Mehta's statements about "reoloking at our relations with Russia" on the Gorshkov issue (in this case he was clearly overstepping the line though).

Someone had to take the call. Yes, it was beyond his pay grade to comment on policy and that is why I suspect, he may have proxied for the Minister and the Govt since they could not, for obvious reasons, upset Russia politically. A message had to be sent to Russia that India would not buckle to their blackmail, which Russia was doing, by putting impediments and escalating the price!!

Look at the whole media coverage over 6th CPC...The generals can be quite savvy when they want to!

Notwithstanding the sty in the eye, there was a huge turmoil brewing within the rank and file, the pensioners were also restive and it was already in the media. Therefore, it is a wonder who leaked. The bureaucrats or the Uniformed!!

I have been for example, extremely surprised that there has been absolutely zero discussion on the AV Singh committee recos, and the increasing top-heaviness of the services, and its impact on operational efficiency..I posted some data in a post above..

The report speaks of 'Pull and Push''. The Govt has been able to Pull, but have no idea how to push and since they are not willing to get embarrassed, no discussion is taking place.

Again, barring the periodic references, there is no substantive discusion on why the CDS is taking so much time to come about - the generals have been brushing it off, the politicians avoiding it - but very few, if at all, have presented a cogent case (even on the other side, why we probably dont need a CDS)...

Apart from the internal turf wars within the Services, the bureaucrats and the politicians don't want a powerful position amongst the uniformed, which can prove to be a strong lobby of ALL three services and which can skew the bureaucrats' and politicians' stranglehold over the services.

[RayC]

Good news (who says no news in good news!)

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... army+glory

Would they also be TA Honorary Colonels like Kapil Dev?

A brand ambassador?

That means nothing in real terms!

Or will they do their two months stint every year and if embodied go to Kashmir to join in the COIN activities as a average officer does?

Will they join as Lt or be given honorary ranks?

KP Singhdeo was a TA officer and he rose through the ranks and retired as a Brigadier. He as a Minister of State for Defence.

[somnath]

^^^RayC, I was not commentng on the merits (or the lack of it) of the specific issues, only that the services are quite media savvy if and when they want to..

On Siachen, there has been the discussion in a previous post already - a lot of people, ex servicemen included, who wdo not consider Siachen to be the strategic frontier it is positioned as and in fact condier it is a colossal waste of resources and lives now - Gen VR Raghavan and JN dixit come to the mind immediately...But we have discussed this before..

but it would interesting to discuss the AV Singh recos and its implementatio though...yiou say "push and pull" - I guess you mean pull more and better quality people in and push some of the deadwood out? But the focus has been, at least seemingly on only a large scale lateral level "pull" in the middle and senior ranks! So more colonels, brigadiers, generals and their equivalents..Does the IA (and IAF/IN) have enough appropriate jobs to allocate to so many new "senior" staff?

Currently what we are seeing is that existing jobs are being "upgraded" - so almost all infantry battalions are commanded by Colonels, many (in fact most) combat squadrons have multiple Wing Cos - the day IMO is not far when combat squadrons will be commanded by Gr Captains! Even smaller (1200 ton class) ships are being commanded often by Commanders, mid sized frigates often commanded by captains, and larger ships by Commodores...

How does this impact the opertional effectiveness of the services as an organisation? In most conventional orgs, the top heaviness would be deleterious to its efficiency...Plus the problems in terms of a "greying" force.

[RayC]

^^^RayC, I was not commentng on the merits (or the lack of it) of the specific issues, only that the services are quite media savvy if and when they want to..

Was this a news release by the Army?

I think it is more of a Congress sponsored news wherein the are trying to project their GenNext politicians as highly motivated, nation loving, patriotic and ever so active and involved!

The whoopee Rahul Gandhi's Young Things - something on the lines of the youth and enthusiasm of Indira Gandhi's monkey Brigade when she was a child! Reinventing the wheel!

On Siachen, there has been the discussion in a previous post already - a lot of people, ex servicemen included, who wdo not consider Siachen to be the strategic frontier it is positioned as and in fact condier it is a colossal waste of resources and lives now - Gen VR Raghavan and JN dixit come to the mind immediately...But we have discussed this before..

Yes, we have discussed, but then I asked you a few questions that you did not answer:

1. Why was Lt Gen Raghavan not having this opinion earlier?

2. How is Siachen different from other areas of Kashmir. If Siachen is redundant to India's national interest, so should others be. If the Pakistani should occupy Siachen and then the adjoining mountain ridge (I forget the name), then it is hop skip and jump to Daulat Beg Olde and then giving the warm embrace of their all weather friend - China. Another piece of territory handed over ever so kindly to the Pakistanis and Chinese and bringing them close to Leh!

but it would interesting to discuss the AV Singh recos and its implementatio though...yiou say "push and pull" - I guess you mean pull more and better quality people in and push some of the deadwood out? But the focus has been, at least seemingly on only a large scale lateral level "pull" in the middle and senior ranks! So more colonels, brigadiers, generals and their equivalents..Does the IA (and IAF/IN) have enough appropriate jobs to allocate to so many new "senior" staff?

Currently what we are seeing is that existing jobs are being "upgraded" - so almost all infantry battalions are commanded by Colonels, many (in fact most) combat squadrons have multiple Wing Cos - the day IMO is not far when combat squadrons will be commanded by Gr Captains! Even smaller (1200 ton class) ships are being commanded often by Commanders, mid sized frigates often commanded by captains, and larger ships by Commodores...

How does this impact the opertional effectiveness of the services as an organisation? In most conventional orgs, the top heaviness would be deleterious to its efficiency...Plus the problems in terms of a "greying" force.

Those that matter in fighting the actual wars are not in the greying zone. In fact, they are now getting more blacker!

Since the push is not there, they are being absorbed in higher echelons.

Whether this is a good thing or not, it is a moot point, but I think the Govt is doing the same as they do it for the IAS and IPS - create sinecures and buy peace!

[somnath]

On the CDS, something got written today!

http://www.asianage.com/presentation/le ... staff.aspx

This seems to be the "services" view - however the point is that successive chiefs have themselves been less than enthusiastic about it...