Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 04 Aug 2009 20:24

RayC wrote:We have not been able to contact the ball with the bat and so our middle stump has been blown to smithereens!

Slow Ball Kills Wicketkeeper

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Aug 2009 20:39

My ref to willow is to the state its grown in.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 04 Aug 2009 21:07

ramana wrote:Hain jee and how do you think the PMO can handle the US pressure? With what? All alpha squirrels around.

The MOD officials are forever on take and delay procurements. The Army takes for ever to mobilize and wants to fight WWI Battle of Somme all over again. The scientists give duds.

The economists do their best to screw the economy.

The judical systems allows criminals to take over the internal society.

Pray with what the PMO can be tough with the US? MMS has bought time to clean up but will be wasted. However, a clever babu will come up with a procedure objection and derail everything and then the politicians will bandwagon on it and back to stasis and members getting banned here.

I did NOT steal Ramana's password and I did not write this post.

But looks like people are becoming more and more RM like everyday

.

---

AFAIT, we must build a US class Military or US will completely enslave us. S-e-S is just the beginning.

--

Also with US pressure, one reason is that US is promising Nobel Peace Prize to MMS if he obeys and gets JK problem "solved". MMS is fame hungry and so this Nobel Peace Prize carrot is working on him.

kshirin · Post by **kshirin** » 04 Aug 2009 21:24

shiv wrote:I am just beginning to wonder - are our bureaucrats well informed about Pakistan? I am beginning to feel that there is something completely dysfunctional about the way Pakistan is handled by India.

Our politicians have ad hoc reactions and do not seem to base their judgements on either a deep study of Pakistan or a knowledge of history of post-independence Pakistani actions. Look at SM Krishna. I am certain that he does not know Pakistan the way many on this forum know it. But if politicians are ignorant - it is up to the bureaucrats to educate them and if our IAS/IFS cadre do not have what it takes to teach the politicos it explains exactly why Indians look like such idiots dealing with Pakistan.

And where would our bureaucrats get their information from? Senior Indian bureaucrats would have had their main education 20-30 years ago. What was the literature available on Pakistan then? In fact it is only in the last 5 years or so that there has been an explosion of literature about Pakistan written by Indians and an even bigger explosion of literature written by non Indians.

Many of us have become experts on this forum after reading and reading all the available literature. Have our bureaucrats doe that? Apart from a few people like Parthasarathy, B Raman and the late JN Dixit - it is not at all clear that the Indian government is not talking through its hat when talking about Pakistan.

The idiocy and ignorance displayed is frightening. Its not just the top echelons - the foundations are weak. The advice given to the PMO and other senior politicians is faulty.

Maybe it was a well kept secret - reading, General Knowledge and academics are indeed at a low premium in the services (paradoxical, since the way of recruitment is academic) though there are many exceptions - but after SeS it is out. Markey seems to be correct in his assessment of the shallowness of strategic thinking.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 04 Aug 2009 23:08

Why are folks here getting so agitated over SeS and a possible "peaceful/giveaway Kashmir solution"? The giveaway will not bring peace, since for TSP such a gievaway is only one small piece of all the loot it expects. Terror strikes will continue as then it will be "internal" IM and home-grown terrorists who will be taking revenge for all the atrocities being committed on IM's by the "Hindus" - according to Pakspeak. TSP's continued aggression, terror strikes, an increasingly militant political Islam taking inspiration from the success of the first phase of the campaign, all will combine to expose what the reality is. At least then there will be a possibility to make a clean sweep and start again, and in fact then a drive can be started to take back all that has been "given up", since 47.

Shivaji, and Ranjit Singhji could arise only after the older Gurjara-Pratihara/Paramars or the likes of Siddharaja had been wiped clean off the face of India. Even then Shivaji had to face some of the most illustrious Rajput allies of the Mughals.

Let the babus and the or leaders give it all up. That is the golden opportunity for us to look forward. If any babus or Intel guys are scanning these pages, please convey back how eagerly we wait the "giving away" - for that starts your ultimate fall and destruction. Free of you, Bharat can take back what rightfully belongs to it.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 04 Aug 2009 23:13

Once upon a time our FM spokesperson used to say "No Third party intervention",
Nowadays our Foreign Policy needs "Third party directives" on every issue.

(ex "India should forget NAM", "India needs to accomodate TSP", "India's options are talks not war" )

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 04 Aug 2009 23:52

brihaspati,

But do you realize what that would mean for our nation? If you go by the historical record, it is doubtful that a compromise on Kashmir alone would trigger the reaction you want. The first loss in Kashmir happened sometime around 800AD and the takeback did not start for another 800 years. In the meanwhile, the nation fell into ruin and lost out on the modernisation sweeping the world. If similar events happen, much of North India will fall all over again before recovery starts. And as someone said, this is not a twosome game, so other external actors would definitely get involved again.

Too high a risk and too high a price. A better alternative is to keep up the pressure and put the ideas behind any compromise to bed.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 05 Aug 2009 00:01

vera_kji,
On the scenarios thread I had speculated on this possibility long ago, where the entire Indo-Gangetic belt falls to Jihad in one form or the other. But that will clear off the "dhimmis" and the collaborators who even now are doing their utmost to exactly make such a scenario quite plausible. The first time also we had wonderful collaborators like Siddharaj of Gujarat, who allowed everything that our predominantly north-dominated leadership now allows in concession to the Jihadis.

Sometimes, we have to allow a rotten fence to be destroyed by the storm and wind, so that we can build up anew, and stronger and firmer. Bharats's greatest enemy is not outside, it is the weakness that we show towards the collaborator compromiser give-away mentality inside, that divides us.

On the other hand, what I wrote, if hopefully reaches the right ears - could just strike a paranoid bell somewhere, for they are afterall primarily in love with themselves, and will do anything to stay on in power. Then you could have your wish.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 05 Aug 2009 00:55

B"sir
Freedom from all major thorny issues is in the hand of public which is deliberately kept ignorant by applying various media, educatiive and other communicative tools. Kashmiri Sunni fanatics problem wont last more than a week if GOI let janta settle it for the "satisfaction'of all parties . Patiently waiting for 2020 plus when current crop of 70 plus politicians to go dust to dust and ashes to ashes so new blood can get oppertunity to remedy the wrongs. Right now we are in dark midnight strom with Babbus, Buddhhas and Budddhus controling the helm, soon dawn approacheth to dispell the inertia and India will go steady to tryst with destiny.
Just one difference ,the whole Gangetic best is not be blamed , onlee Ganga Jamuni "culture" folks are deep into Dhimmiism.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 05 Aug 2009 01:16

All said and done looks like "Writing on the wall"
scenario is going to come to reality much sooner than Gen Paddy predicted.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 05 Aug 2009 05:23

This Krishna's strategies boomerang

Former Union minister Lalu Prasad hit out at the confusing statements coming from within the government on Pak-sponsored terrorism. "The government is getting cornered because of the contradictory statements from the government. The impression gaining ground is that Pakistan has shown the mirror to India," he pointed out.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 05 Aug 2009 07:05

This city has been a major port. Gold trade flourished in the Sharm el Sheikh due to its location on teh Red Sea. It also commanded enormous importance as it was the gateway to Jabal Musa, where Moses is believed to have been bestowed with the Ten Commandments.
Sharm al Sheik

I presume that is why the Jt Statement enshrined:

1. "Do not steal."

2. "Do not bear false witness against your neighbour".

3. "Do not murder"

4. "Neither shall you desire your neighbour's house, or field, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour."

Now, do your permutations and combination with the text and the above.

Holy men prepared the Jt Statement!

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 05 Aug 2009 07:20

Now picking up from Ramchandra Guha, who for a change talked about age-wise assessment about the people involved in SeS low point. As this is the age of worshipping all scientific, testable and modern methods, should people (especially like selected leaders who haven't directly interacted with the populace to win an election) in babucracy be subject to Psychiatric evaluation and required to pass such tests. No, it is not said with malice, the Army personnel are routinely subject to Physical fitness evaluation to maintain the efficiency of the army. Please correct me if defense Personnel aren't required to meet medical standards routinely.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 05 Aug 2009 07:35

new twist to the firestorm reaction to the SeS joint statement. {Must be potent joints, those.}

A Pak daily claims Hillary lunch was the reason for the resentment against the Indian PM, reports Farzand Ahmed.

link

arun · Post by **arun** » 05 Aug 2009 07:38

The Islamic Republic of Pakistan is wasting no time in building on Dr. Manmohan Singhs lapse of good “Drafting”

sense by permitting the “Unilateral”

mention of Balochistan in the Sharm El Sheikh joint declaration:

Wednesday , August 5 , 2009

Baloch crackdown after statement - Pakistan accused of torturing students and extracting confession of Indian hand

K.P. NAYAR

Washington, Aug. 4: For the babus in South Block, the inclusion of Balochistan in the India-Pakistan joint statement is no more than a case of “bad drafting”, but in the restive province on the other side of the border, Balochis are paying with their lives and limbs for the foibles of Indian diplomats who were in Sharm-el-Sheikh.

The Pakistani establishment, crowing in vindication about its line on Balochistan following the joint statement, is heavily stepping up the crackdown on the people in the province, vowing to stamp out not only any traces of secession but even of dissent and legitimate assertion of time-honoured Baloch identity.

Within 48 hours of the release of the joint statement in Sharm-el-Sheikh, the Frontier Constabulary in Quetta abducted Sami Baloch, a leader of the Baloch Student Organisation, while the postgraduate student of Balochistan University was returning from tuition at night..............

In another case which is attracting international attention — while India is wrestling with the semantics of the joint statement — Fazal Baloch, a 19-year-old student at Bolan University, was pulled off a bus by plainclothes intelligence officers in Panjgur district of Balochistan, tortured and then formally handed over to the crime branch of the Anti-Terrorist Force in Quetta.

Fazal told his family when he was eventually dumped in a hospital that he was forced to confess under torture that he was aware of India funding an outfit in Balochistan known as the Baloch Liberation Army.……………..

Telegraph India

arun · Post by **arun** » 05 Aug 2009 07:45

The Communist (CPI-M) view of SeS:

India-Pak joint statement made under US influence: Karat

Jalandhar (PTI): The CPI(M) on Tuesday alleged that the India-Pak joint statement at Sharm-el Sheikh in Egypt was made under US influence.

Party general secretary Prakash Karat also charged the UPA government of playing into the hands of America by signing the nuclear deal and claimed the country was now at the mercy of the west on strategic issues.

"We are also in favour of talks with Pakistan but direction of these should not be dictated by the US," Mr. Karat told reporters …………………

PTI via The Hindu

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 05 Aug 2009 08:16

Ha I said this couple of pages ago while we are pre occupied with our sharam, what about others who were sharing info with us through other agecies. We screwed a lot of lives and scored massive self goals, now the PM should get penality kick.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 05 Aug 2009 08:46

brihaspati wrote:Sometimes, we have to allow a rotten fence to be destroyed by the storm and wind, so that we can build up anew, and stronger and firmer. Bharats's greatest enemy is not outside, it is the weakness that we show towards the collaborator compromiser give-away mentality inside, that divides us.

To use the same analogy, we can also take down the rotten fence ourselves. Why wait for the storm and wind? The only lesson to be drawn is that the collaborator compromisers have to be dealt with proactively.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 05 Aug 2009 08:57

Baloch crackdown after statement - Pakistan accused of torturing students and extracting confession of Indian hand

It has become an albatross around India's neck and a total millstone in tandem!

I am amazed that such a blunder can be committed by a delegation lead by worthies like the PM and his advisers.

Real extraordinary!

From a victim to a perpetrator!

But then, of course, we have nothing to hide - excepting our head that was held high so far!

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 05 Aug 2009 09:09

John Snow wrote:All said and done looks like "Writing on the wall"
scenario is going to come to reality much sooner than Gen Paddy predicted.

Snow garu, sorry but can you state his prediction; and your views on them?

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 05 Aug 2009 09:13

brihaspati: What gives you the confidence that once the rotten fence is broken down that we will be erect another one? We should bear in mind that if we lose territory then it means we just lost territory. Why would dhimmism give way to rejuvenated people?

tripathi · Post by **tripathi** » 05 Aug 2009 09:38

SwamyG wrote:brihaspati: What gives you the confidence that once the rotten fence is broken down that we will be erect another one? We should bear in mind that if we lose territory then it means we just lost territory. Why would dhimmism give way to rejuvenated people?

unless bharat get enslaved again it wont understand the true freedom.or is it that bhartiya can not rule they can only comply with some strong coming from outside and ruling them.no revolution is successful without blood flow and bhartiya got freedom in alms without blood flow.

arun · Post by **arun** » 05 Aug 2009 11:12

Brahma Chellaney does a decent job of debunking incorrect notions about Pakistan that our Prime Ministers has tried to peddle to our Parliament while defending his Sharm El Sheikh joint declaration:

Dangerous fallacies

Brahma Chellaney
Tuesday, August 4, 2009 20:46 IST

…………. Singh's latest statements in Parliament reveal eight dangerous misconceptions on Pakistan

One, political geography is unalterable. "We cannot wish away the fact that Pakistan is our neighbour," Singh says. But political maps are not carved in stone. Didn't Indira Gandhi change political geography in 1971? …………………

Two, India and Pakistan are locked by a shared destiny. Therefore, "our objective must be permanent peace with Pakistan, where we are bound together by a shared future and a common prosperity." How can a plural, inclusive and democratic India share a common future with a theocratic, militarised and radicalised Pakistan? ………............

Four, India cannot emerge as a great power without making peace with Pakistan. "It is in our vital interest, therefore, to try again to make peace with Pakistan." By linking India's global rise to the placation of Pakistan, Singh has hyphenated India with that country even more strikingly than any international actor. Actually, to say that the country cannot emerge as a major power without making peace with an adversary wedded to waging war by terror is to go against the grain of world history ………….................

Five, as India has nothing to hide and indeed "our conduct is an open book," it can let Pakistan include any issue in the bilateral agenda. It was such logic that encouraged Pakistan to turn its terror target, India, into an accused on Balochistan. …………..........

Six, if Pakistan merely acknowledges what is incontrovertible, that is enough for India to change policy course. ……………............ That Pakistan has yet to begin dismantling its state-run terror complex against India was overlooked. ………………........

DNA

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 05 Aug 2009 11:30

Reading Brahma Chellaney's piece, it reminds me of Neville Chamberlain's appeasement foreign policy, in particular regarding his signing of the Munich Agreement in 1938, conceding the Sudetenland region of Czechoslovakia to Germany and for his "containment" policy of Germany in 1939.

Of course, to be fair to our PM, he did not carry an umbrella nor had a top hat!

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 05 Aug 2009 12:38

brihaspati wrote: Let the babus and the or leaders give it all up. That is the golden opportunity for us to look forward. If any babus or Intel guys are scanning these pages, please convey back how eagerly we wait the "giving away" - for that starts your ultimate fall and destruction. Free of you, Bharat can take back what rightfully belongs to it.

What are you smoking?

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 05 Aug 2009 14:49

x-post

Headlines Today reporting "Tough talk by Phak-i-stan: No talks without Kashmir".

Great. India says "No talks without action against terror".

So the only common ground that I see is "No talks".

I think the S-e-S capitulation has finally come full circle with TSP shooting itself in the foot. Even MMS can now no longer talk to TSP. That takes some doing - forcing the impatience of even a Gandhian/pacifist such as our honorable PM.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 05 Aug 2009 14:50

What are you smoking?

b-ji is known to smoke a particularly severe version of the truth. Most ordinary mortals pass out after the first few drags.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 05 Aug 2009 14:56

Hari Seldon wrote:
What are you smoking?
b-ji is known to smoke a particularly severe version of the truth. Most ordinary mortals pass out after the first few drags.

Well said!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 05 Aug 2009 17:29

vera_k wrote
To use the same analogy, we can also take down the rotten fence ourselves. Why wait for the storm and wind? The only lesson to be drawn is that the collaborator compromisers have to be dealt with proactively.

It would have been the happiest moment for me to be able to see that we would be able to do this "tearing down" within the required time-frame. Most of the nationalist elements who could have slowed down or prevented the process of political rot that resulted from the handing over of power to JLN by the British, scored magnificient self-goals by being over-idealistic in real-politic, where they should have been ruthless. Subhas eulogized MKG - left India, Ballavbhai withdrew, etc. What has resulted is a decimation of almost two generations of nationalist thought and leadership. That essential bridge between the commons whose heart is in the right place alright, but who do not always have the confidence to collect themselves into a compact "fighting force", and those individuals who are sparked by a vision of the nation and its destiny has been broken. It will take time to revive, and I do not feel that we would have the time to revive before the assault comes. That is why I said that we may have no alternative to allowing the "storm and the wind" to do their job. Moreover, there are many loud voices among ourselves perhaps, who fondly look at this old and rotten fence as something of "ourselves". It is an understandable sentiment, (I even feel bad in throwing old used clothes - because I remember how colourful they had been once and what memories they are associated with) but a problem nevertheless.

SwamyG wrote
brihaspati: What gives you the confidence that once the rotten fence is broken down that we will be erect another one? We should bear in mind that if we lose territory then it means we just lost territory. Why would dhimmism give way to rejuvenated people?

We did it before, with Shivaji and Ranjit Singhji. We did it again with the modern nationalists after the British broke down our remaining rotten fences. I may be accused of being an idealist, but I do not flinch from accepting the reality and the pain of necessary surgery, which if we cannot perform ourselves or do not have the time and capability as yet to perform, then allow to be done by others. Sometimes that saves the whole body, sometimes it can regenerate and cover the scar.

I have stated before, that for me, Bharatyia nationhood survived by not pinning it down explicitly to territory. If we equate territory with nation, then any loss of the smallest bit translates into loss of nation. Bharatyia retreated territorially, when holding onto territory would have meant loss of the essential thing that holds a nation together - a living suatianable population that continues its culture. Those who equated culture with nation, escaped with it to more difficult terrain where they could continue and regroup as themselves - others who placed individual survival before that of the nation, compromised and gave up their nationhood and stayed back for property or life.

This does not mean that I support giving up territory indiscriminately. It should only be given up if it jeopardizes the survival of the culture and the living population and becomes militarily necessary. It should only be undertaken with a clear vision of reclaiming with interest later.

Dhiman wrote
What are you smoking?

Hari Seldon wrote
b-ji is known to smoke a particularly severe version of the truth. Most ordinary mortals pass out after the first few drags.

RajeshA wrote
Well said!

Friends, I am a mere mortal. I left university debating and theatre performance because I had severe problems in pretending to be someothing or say things which did not come from a deep conviction inside me. I do not or cannot say things which I do not feel deeply about. I try not to give in to sarcasm and bitterness, but my towering passion of teenage years still comes through from time to time - and it may come out as acceptance of things like "breaking of rotten fences by storm and wind". I have nothing but a vision of the greatness and expansion of our nationhood in my heart, and in reality I might be more compassionate than it appears to be. I would be flinching inside if the storm and wind actually plays it out over my people. I hope you understand my agony.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Aug 2009 17:51

The good Doctor is still trying to peddle his "snake-oil" medicine,which he was peddling when the N-deal was being condemned.The latest news from the US that Hillary's statements don't hold water reg. the N-deal,only shows that the good doctor is peddling his lies to the people again and again,including the sell out at S-al-S.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 05 Aug 2009 17:53

brihaspati wrote:I have nothing but a vision of the greatness and expansion of our nationhood in my heart, and in reality I might be more compassionate than it appears to be. I would be flinching inside if the storm and wind actually plays it out over my people. I hope you understand my agony.

I understand, Brihaspati ji.. Bengal and Magadh, sadly, will be the biggest sufferers when the storm comes. And it is not that far. The West and South will have to ensure the rise of Magadha after the storm. Bhaarat cannot think of attaining her supreme position without a strong and wealthy Magadh.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 05 Aug 2009 18:05

brihaspati wrote:
SwamyG wrote
brihaspati: What gives you the confidence that once the rotten fence is broken down that we will be erect another one? We should bear in mind that if we lose territory then it means we just lost territory. Why would dhimmism give way to rejuvenated people?
We did it before, with Shivaji and Ranjit Singhji. We did it again with the modern nationalists after the British broke down our remaining rotten fences.

Well, despite Shivaji, Ranjit Singh, and the modern nationalists, we are still in a sorry condition. Will things be better next time around, after another 800 years of dhimmitude, in 2800AD?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Aug 2009 18:13

Pranav et al, Please read this poem;
http://www.bartleby.com/101/741.html

Quoted by Churchill.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 05 Aug 2009 18:30

ramana wrote:Pranav et al, Please read this poem;
http://www.bartleby.com/101/741.html

Quoted by Churchill.

Ah yes, but imho, if one is worried about rotten fences, then one should get rid of them oneself, rather than wait for some external actor to do it for you, and in the process, occupy your house.

Which brings us to the necessity of a "compact force" that B-ji talks about. Generally, big changes are accomplished by small, well-organized groups, with the right type of backing. For example, the Bolshevik revolution was sponsored by the Rothschilds, Schiffs et al via agents like Trotsky.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 05 Aug 2009 18:33

well quoted, ramanaji!

pranavji,

let us be realistic. To bring about any changes in the current drift, we need a popular movement - a mass movement that is intensely nationalist. Nationalist movements ususally do not start until faced with the real depredations of a "foreign devil" who does not recognize all your superfine distinctions and fractures insde - but treats you all uniformly and ruthlessly and does not discriminate in its violence against you. As of now, I hardly see any organized political force capable of sowing the seeds of that regeneration (there are potential in some, but they lack "confidence" and perhaps a confusion of "vision").

But there are reasons for me to feel that the changes you are hoping for will take the next generational span of 30 years, until the 2040's, to make the first significant turnarounds. I definitely hope to live much beyond that date to have the satisfaction. The key is to have the confidence, that we are capable of bringing about the changes, each of us in our own small ways, openly, legitimately, within the norms and practices of our societies - and never to give up, never, ever to give up the faith that we will make it. We will retreat, we will be defeated many times, but we will never give up, until we achieve our goal. Nothing that this or that leader or party or group does, matters.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 05 Aug 2009 18:42

Hari Seldon wrote:x-post

Headlines Today reporting "Tough talk by Phak-i-stan: No talks without Kashmir".

Great. India says "No talks without action against terror".

So the only common ground that I see is "No talks".

I think the S-e-S capitulation has finally come full circle with TSP shooting itself in the foot. Even MMS can now no longer talk to TSP. That takes some doing - forcing the impatience of even a Gandhian/pacifist such as our honorable PM.

The actual reports that I have seen are quoting Omar Abdullah as saying this. Pak media are pathological liars and distorters of the truth, but the Abdullah family is famous for playing both sides against the middle, for the benefit of the Abdullahs. I trust Omar about as much as I trust the Mirwaiz.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Aug 2009 20:38

Pranav and Jove, India is a deep, complex and complicated society with ancient thought process. What this means is applying Modern framework to analyse the polity wont work. For all we know there could be strong undercurrents already unleashed due to the success in the consolidation from the 2009 elections that we might not be aware of it.

In Telugu there is a saying "Varu, veeru ayyaru!" I am not so good at translating this and leave it to better minds to translate this.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 05 Aug 2009 21:06

ramanaji,
not clear. Do you mean "undercurrents" aligned towards the forces that apparently "consolidated" or against it? I do not think the time has yet arrived, but certain core thoughts "against" are perhaps emerging. A rediscucssion on the relation of the Partition to all the subsequent troubles should be relevant now at all possible levels. The J&K initiative - can be a quicksand and danger for "solvers". If the separation of "Kashmir Valley" - the ubiquitious smaller "Partition" creates so much problem which can only be solved by removing the "barriers" and "reintegrating", why cannot the mother of all separtions - the Partition of 47 come back under spotlight? IMO a good starting point to start changing the argument of the psecs and Pak-preservers - if reintegration is so important for a small piece, why not consider reintegrating on a much larger scale? That would be a real gesture of love and peace towards the civilians of Pak - isn't it?

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 05 Aug 2009 21:37

Thats why I said how does it matter, if Pakistan merges with India, or India merge with Pakistan a whole lot of pages ago.
( And shivji promised me to be shot at

)

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 05 Aug 2009 21:58

@ the risk of being shot at by Shiv

Indians need a pakistan, all Indian houses have a designated Pakistan, because if there is no Pakistan, Indians will do potty on each other. Our founding fathers "agreed" to have a Pakistan but failed to wall it off properly which is why the microbes have grown into such a force that only high dose antibiotics will solve the problem. Our babus still dont realise this and try to convince average Rams that a WHO certified Pakistan is in India's interests, well it isn't , we only need to build our walls higher and nourish Pakistan by directing all sewage pipes from India to Pak and from there to Iran or wherever , that way Bakistanis will enjoy their filth and we can have peace of mind. I am not convinced that dividing Pakistan into clean pakistan, user friendly Pakistan and rabidly unsanitary Pakistan is the way forward