Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 05 Aug 2009 09:13

yes boss, I'm aware of that. the altitude rating can come in useful for the platform itself, for firing out of the range of SAMs. if launched with sufficient velocity the missile can free fall till it comes into its operating regime while maintaining proper attitude and then ignite. it's a cruise missile after all. the very idea behind the above scenario is getting 2 different missiles with different attack profiles to over-burden the target.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Aug 2009 09:21

John wrote:Brahmos is a ramjet which places limitations on its operational altitude IIRC they are most effective around ~40,000 ft any higher and their range degrades.

Yep thats what I was thinking , the Brahmos can fly anywhere between 5m to ~ 20 Km although its typical high altitude flight in a Hi-Lo flight trajectory is limited to ~ 14 Km.

One option is to take it high like 20Km on a Mig-31 and release it , its small wing should generate some lift and allow it to glide quite a distance as it looses altitude , as it reaches lets says ~ 12 - 14 km , its solid rocket booster can then kick in and ramjet takes over , it should get substantial increase in range if its release at higher altitude.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Aug 2009 19:20

Did we miss this news of Dr Pillai proposal to kick the russians out , is our scramjet program mature enough to kick them ?

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/08/ex ... ussia.html

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 05 Aug 2009 19:47

Austin wrote:Did we miss this news of Dr Pillai proposal to kick the russians out , is our scramjet program mature enough to kick them ?

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/08/ex ... ussia.html

OT - Dr Pillai (along with VK Saraswat) are strongly being considered for the post of the next DRDO chief. Shri M Natarajan is retiring soon. So it is highly likely next DRDO chief is a missile man.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 05 Aug 2009 21:33

Dr Pillai's proposal is spot on. Its a low risk decision with potentially high rewards. Though its a great missile, we have not sold Brahmos to anyone else. As Shiv Aroor says, the missile is not reaching its full potential, thanks to Russia holding on to key technologies. Plus the MTCR range limitation is a big bummer. India needs to master its seeker technology and this looks like an excellent place to start.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 05 Aug 2009 23:43

Regarding http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/08/ex ... ussia.html

This "new initiative" to cast away the Russian component in BrahMos is lunacy and almost certainly an attempt to ruin one of the few state-of-the-art projects India is involved in.
Here is something:

Has anybody asked as to the state of Indian scramjet technology?
Has India demonstrated any real capability in scramjet technology other than those seen on Powerpoint presentations?
Shouldn't real groundwork be done in parallel before such motives are announced/entertained?

Has BrahMos Aerospace produced enough missiles to fulfill even the needs of the Indian military? I believe this is an attempt to neuter India strategically. Frankly who gives a damned if the range is constrained to 300 Kms. or no missile has been sold abroad.

If the range is constrained by MTCR, the parallel work in some other organizations should have worked on extending the range, commencing with reverse engineering the non-Indian technology in Brahmos-I, before such grandiose words and claims are thrown about.

Scramjet powered Brahmos-II is is even a more far fetched pipe dream without Russian participation. IMVHO some serious amounts of moola is changing hands, all under the watchful gaze of the servants of foriegn interest!

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 05 Aug 2009 23:59

Arun

why do you assume Aroor knows what he is talking about??

Or that it was meant to be public.

For all you know Aroor used it to enhance his blog

Aroor needs sensationalism for a living.

arunsrinivasan · Post by **arunsrinivasan** » 06 Aug 2009 00:21

Arun_S, I completely agree, I'm surprised people are suggesting that we kick out the Russians, would they sit idle when we kick them out of the project? If we piss them off, just think of the number of ways they can screw us, we have enough trouble with the spares & price escalation, when we have good relations with them. Just wonder what it would be if we manage to piss them off. This idea is sheer stupidity in my opinion.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 06 Aug 2009 00:26

Assuming the report is credible -

an annual five-year plan for indigenization resulting in bulk production,

Should there not be a working fully indigenous prototype before any talk of bulk production (or even low scale production)?

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 06 Aug 2009 00:37

That statement to Shiv Aroor is IMVHO cheap posturing by Sivathanu Pillai at the expense of the country he claims to serve. Empty tinpot to make noise to cry for topjob.

Next scientific advisor to the defence minister & DRDO chief :

Previous choice of M Natarajan was extremely poor.
Sivathanu Pillai will be even more worse.

Army vice-chief's appointment kicks up a row

On the other hand, lobbying is under way by various groups for the post of the next DRDO chief. Incumbent M Natarajan, who is also scientific advisor to the defence minister, is retiring at month-end. His replacement will be chosen by the government from the military research agency's senior chief comptrollers, who include BrahMos missile corporation chief A Sivathanu Pillai, chief of aeronautical laboratories Dipankar Banerjee and VK Saraswat, who is in charge of missile and strategic systems.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 06 Aug 2009 00:45

If this news is media sensationalism, then BrahMos should strongly come out with a denial. How can Pillai have a "ManTech" group within a JV whose main aim is to dissolve the JV? This ManTech group should have been a highly confidential outfit extraneous to BrahMos, dedicated to asking the hard questions and having powers and funds to mitigate the glaring shortcomings in Indian R&D and actual technology level to achieve the following objectives:

1. Replicate the existing Brahmos-I
2. Extend its range
3. Evolve to BrahMos-II

All within 3-5 years from today! IOW, such an effort should have commenced about 5 years ago. Given the lack of any serious Indian capability in scramjet technology, and seekers (to a certain extant), etc. the objectives might not be met even 5 years from today (10 years from when such a ManTech group appraisal should have commenced). But the at least, some basic infrastructure would have been in place.

As things stand if Pillai doesn't retract his comments and the Russians call his bluff, he's left with poo in his mouth! What leg does he have to stand on then?

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 06 Aug 2009 00:53

Manufacturing Technology(ManTech)
The article makes sense.There is no mention of Kicking the Russian out.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 06 Aug 2009 01:05

ok so I would wait till Pillai or someone official makes a statement

We know Aroors plusses and minuses by now

I doubt people who have manged this upto now would be so stupid.

on the other hand Aroor - what can I say -

Now if he leaked it - he should be flogged

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 06 Aug 2009 01:23

Arun: we dont know whether Dr. Pillai is making this claim now with an eye towards the DRDO chief position. Aroor also hinted at this possibility at the end of the blog post. If that's really the motive, its a pretty stupid move because the decision making authorities can see right through it, given the timing. At any rate, without knowing more about him, I cant suspect his motives. His track record is fairly good.

But what he is recommending in the case of Brahmos is the right way to go IMO. Read the last section of the article - it says that the Brahmos Co will produce a report with a list of items that they can indigenize and a timeframe for the same. Well - he and his team can be held accountable to that (whether or not he becomes the chief).

However, I agree with you that the hard work needs to have happened before the boast. Seems to be a common Indian phenomenon - Kakodkar claims we can make nuke-powered warships etc. Sure - everything is possible on paper.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Aug 2009 01:23

A Sharma wrote:Manufacturing Technology(ManTech)
The article makes sense.There is no mention of Kicking the Russian out.

So its R&D agency to acquire technologies in this area. If so then Dr Pillai will be busy implementing these to be really effective as the SA.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Aug 2009 01:33

Here is the pdf article (six pages):

MANUFACTURING TECHNOLOGY (ManTech)

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Aug 2009 01:42

Aroor seems to have stepped beyond his bounds:

It is proposed to formulate Manufacturing Technology (ManTech) policy statement and
programme structure under Department of Defence as part of BrahMos Joint Venture to
meet the indigenisation/bulk production requirements of high-end technologies in the
field of supersonic and hypersonic cruise missiles.

So, where is this "shake of Russia" coming from?

And this document is right on Brahmos web site!!!!!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Aug 2009 01:48

Much ado about nothing.

Looks to me like that the Russians have agreed to provide "Indigenisations" of some techs - perhaps for a sum of monies.

More like complete ToT wrapped around by ManTech.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Aug 2009 01:49

Is Aroor being paraochial?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Aug 2009 01:53

If only he had checked that pdf first ...................

Does anyone read anything sinister in that doc? I could not find anything ........... so far.

The fact that it is on the BrahMos web site should mean that the Russians knew about it, actually were consulted prior to writing that doc and placing it on the web site. Or is this another Hillary-misspoke, which I doubt, syndrome?

to meet the indigenisation/bulk production requirements of high-end technologies in the field of supersonic and hypersonic cruise missiles.

Seems like nothing to do with the BrahMos - at all!!!

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 06 Aug 2009 02:08

One doesn't make bombastic statements about setting up ManTech groups within a JV whose main aim is to ultimately dissolve the JV, and that too at a delicate juncture when Russian assistance in scramjet technology BrahMos-II is critical.

The ManTech report is shallow and superficial, but potentially explosive in its timing, especially in light of teh fact that scramjet is a critical futuristic technology, for which 100 % Russian support is required. It isn't available at the "corner paan shop", nor will it be provided by any of India's new "strategic friends".

Also, note the persistent use of the term "Department of Defence". I trust that the good Colonel has been sufficiently tuned to teh Indian system to know that it's called the "Ministry of Defence". This might be genuine mistake, but then again one wonders.

Pillai's only way out is to deny Aroor's statements as a hoax or a misunderstanding. However, if Aroor has proof (recordings etc. of Pillai's statements), then Pillai might be in serious poop. The intent of the ManTech cell is good, but its timing and origin are potentially explosive. The Russians aren't going to part with a single scramjet engine part if they know that there are intentions to sidetrack them eventually. Thinking otherwise would be wishful thinking.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 06 Aug 2009 02:10

You could read a whole bunch of motives in Aroors post .

But by discussing it we give him more publicity and traffic

Sridhar · Post by **Sridhar** » 06 Aug 2009 02:13

If you replace all occurrences of "Department of Defence" with "Department of Defence Production" (which is part of the Ministry of Defence), everything works out ok in the report.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 06 Aug 2009 02:23

NRao wrote:If only he had checked that pdf first ...................

Does anyone read anything sinister in that doc? I could not find anything ........... so far.

The fact that it is on the BrahMos web site should mean that the Russians knew about it, actually were consulted prior to writing that doc and placing it on the web site. Or is this another Hillary-misspoke, which I doubt, syndrome?

to meet the indigenisation/bulk production requirements of high-end technologies in the field of supersonic and hypersonic cruise missiles.
Seems like nothing to do with the BrahMos - at all!!!

Your comment that it's ToT packaged as ManTech might be a plausible answer. But then again, they would certainly want something in return. Nobody parts with scramjet technology (or even an engine part), which is akin to lighting a candle in a typhoon, unless something substantial is to be gained. That means the MRCA is certainly going to be given to Russia in addition to more reactor orders. How will the "fearless leader" MMS explain this to his new (old wine new bottle) friends ?

There is some undercurrent to indicate MRCA will be cleaved along the original 126 crafts and 74 crafts that was added later to the MRCA requirement. Mig-35 is definitely in, question is how much?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Aug 2009 02:23

In support of Aroor, I just checked and found that of three quotes, two are from that document. So, he has been through that document.

However, the document does not seem to support Aroor's contention that anyone is trying to get rid of the Russians!!!! There is a chance that I have missed it, but .....................

In fact it says:

BrahMos Aerospace shall prepare a technical report describing deliverables received and
activity conducted for each ManTech project for which funds have been expended. This
report shall be submitted to the Secretary Defence Production.

I do not see the ManTech effort to be outside that of BrahMos. On the contrary.

The only controversial part IMHO is (from liveFist):

In February last year, Pillai had told me, "As long as we do not control the critical technologies, i.e. engine and seeker, Russia will call all the shots in BrahMos, including cost which is critical to export competence."

But, the doc also has "cost" as a reason. What the doc does not have is the word "export".

But, again, my suspicion is that this has the blessings of the Russians. IF they have not blessed it, it will come out sooner than later.

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 06 Aug 2009 02:34

gents

let us not have emotional replies about something logical and long overdue.

first - may i ask where is scramjet mentioned in the document or talk of reneging on scramjet JV with russians; i am asking as i cannot find it in document at all

second- where is talk of "throwing the russians out" apart from aroor who is not reliable!!

third- if this was so top secret and talk of indigenisation then why is this document made public on brahmos website and written by Col JP Uniyal?

(and if it was secret, it is aroor to blame for making a secret document public and compromising india plans!!)

on one hand people had complaint --> why brahmos is still using russian propulsion not made in india and that seekers is not indian, but when pillai comes out with logical long term plan, he is called names

is this behaviour right?

gents sivathanu pillai is a highly respected scientific personnel who has done yeoman service to the nation via brahmos project and other projects. he comes up with far reaching proposal to improve state of indian defence R&D in open manner and it is not right that people use motives imputed by yellow journalist to attack him.

this is same man, who against service disinterest made brahmos into tri service missile, with credible delivery against timeline that made service interested and take delivery.

same man who delivered missiles on time, on target and met mission objective constantly despite political and other vendor attempts to sidetrack brahmos project.

same man who leveraged full pvt and public industry in india to make missile and did not do "chalta hain"

now, all of sudden, we are to think, he has not thought about what his plan is, and brahmos is going to disappear because "moola has changed hands"

fourth and finally, enuff missiles have been delivered to arm several warship and one regiment of army already received missiles and series production is also going on

same pillai who does not know what to do, managed to get keltron into brahmos corp, getting MOD (ie antony support for troubled plant from home state) support, and enhanced production facilities to match production requirements bypassing bottleneck of BDL wihtout even creating controversy.

this is very serious man, his record is not one of timepass.

The brahmastra

Exclusive
R. Prasannan watches the exciting flight of BrahMos
Lieutenant-Colonel Vishnu Ram was not new to BrahMos, the world's fastest cruise missile. He had rehearsed its firing many times, and had actually fired it thrice. He knew what to do at what point of that monotonous countdown. As the countdown reaches 11, he would insert the key. At nine, the missile would get pyro-armed. At count-zero, it would shoot straight up from the back of his Tatra truck, turn horizontal a few metres above his head, and rush towards an enemy target some 290 km away, three times faster than sound. There would be a tremble felt inside his truck, but he liked it. For no soldier in the world has had this privilege even once-of firing a cruise missile that flies three times faster than sound. He has done it thrice, and had even been in the team that fired an Agni three years ago.

On Sunday, April 22, he was going to insert the BrahMos firing key for a fourth time, a few minutes after 11 a.m. Today he had a sore throat, the result of yesterday's long briefings and exposure to the sea-breeze at Chandipur-on-Sea. Here, twice every day, the sea recedes nearly three kilometres, leaving a vast stretch of crescent-shaped land over which one could drive a fully-loaded missile truck or even a battle tank. And twice every day, the sea would reclaim that stretch where test-weary scientists and soldiers can enjoy a little paddling.

They could even conduct a small test in high tide, and collect fallen parts either for tests or as souvenirs. "This range is the envy of many countries," said S.P. Dash, director of the Integrated Test Range. "The British had set up the Proof & Experimental Establishment here in 1895, which came under DRDO in 1958." The acquired test range is 19.4 km and notified range more than 50 km.

Today's was going to be the final test for the Army, and Colonel Ram was excited. He tried his best to brief Lieutenant-General B.S. Pawar, commandant of the Deolali-based School of Artillery, and Major-General V.K. Chaturvedi, deputy director-general, artillery, at the Army Headquarters in Delhi. Both of them had come to witness the last launch. It was special because the Army had asked for some unique manoeuvring at the terminal end and Dr Sivathanu Pillai, head of the BrahMos Corporation and chief controller of DRDO, had promised them that the capability had been packed into the missile.

For Pillai, this was going to be the 14th test of his BrahMos. He had conducted 10 tests and handed over an undisclosed number of missiles to the Indian Navy. So confident was he about his missile by the ninth test that when the Navy asked for a tenth test with a warhead, he asked them to pay for it. The amused Navy complied. And as the then Navy chief Arun Prakash and his colleagues watched, Pillai had blasted away a decommissioned naval ship 290 km away.

Today would be his final test-launch for the Army, and he was confident that nothing would go wrong. But wasn't there something wrong in the positioning of the canisters? They were not straight up, but slightly slanting. Pillai had ordered the launcher to be positioned at a 92-degree angle. He wanted to show the Army that they could take the launcher truck to a rugged countryside terrain and fire the missile, as accurately as straight up from the flattest terrain. Pointing to the middle one among the three canisters on the Tatra truck, Pillai told General Pawar. "The one marked D-15 will be launched today."

Fourteenth test with D-15? "Don't be confused by the number," a young scientist whispered in my ear. "We didn't have one marked 13." There was no need to tell me. Earlier in the morning, I had seen R. Appavuraj, deputy director (safety) of the range, breaking a coconut in front of the mobile command post manned by scientist Prameela and her team. From the remains of coconuts scattered there, I had judged that virtually every scientist there had sought divine blessings.

Except perhaps Dr S.K. Chaudhuri, associate director, Research Centre Imarat, and M.V. Ravindranath who was on A.P.J. Abdul Kalam's personal staff for 15 years. Both of them had an arm each in sling; Chaudhuri by slipping in a ship (perhaps he was integrating BrahMos on a warship) and Ravindranath while helping the workers load the canisters. Pillai had asked them to take rest, but they won't. "That is the spirit that Pillai invokes in his team," a scientist told me.

Later, BrahMos project director Sibnath Som would tell me that before every launch he would go to Puri and seek the blessings of Lord Jagannath. "There could be a one-millionth of a chance for something to go wrong," Som would tell me. "We seek divine blessings to take care of that." Those who can't or don't go to Puri have a local temple, a gurdwara, a masjid and a church within the test range.

But Colonel Ram's problem, however, was his sore throat. As Dr Pillai asked him to brief about today's launch, the colonel could only whisper. Pillai and the generals smiled affectionately, as Ram told them about his problem. Colonel Uniyal, who retired from the Army and joined the BrahMos team, came forward to give the briefing.
The countdown began a few minutes past 11 a.m. It came down to 'eleven'. Colonel Vishnu Ram inserted the pyro-arming key. He was two seconds late. The key went in at nine. The countdown came to zero, and there was no sight of the missile. In the air-conditioned control room, Pillai sweated. At stake was his entire credibility as one of India's foremost rocket and missile scientists, built from the days when he assisted the legendary Vikram Sarabhai in evolving a 10-year space profile for the country.

Pillai had also been a member of the Kalam-led core team that developed the SLV-3s where he had developed the four-stage rocket motors, the first stage of which had become the booster for Agni. He had been a key member of the study team for the polar satellite launch vehicle which was to have the first successful commercial launch the next day. And he had tested his most favourite baby 13 times, most of them with cent per cent success.

All that, and the entire future of BrahMos as India's Brahmastra, was hanging in the balance. "I have never seen Dr Pillai more worried (than at that moment)," Dr Venugopalan, director of the Hyderabad-based Defence Research and Development Laboratory, would say later. No one knew what was wrong. The previous night Pillai had reviewed everything, when he should have been sleeping off a jet-lag and a drive-lag. For Pillai had reached Delhi in the early hours of Saturday after a trans-continental flight, slept for two hours, attended office, taken a two-hour flight to Bhubaneswar and then had a four-hour back-breaking drive to Chandipur. He had reached five minutes late for the meeting, and had satisfied himself that everything was in place. He had told everyone, "We will have a perfect launch and this would be the last" (for the Army).

He had even solved a counting problem after that meeting. Just as he was about to go sleep, his six-year-old grandson had called from the US with a counting poser. "Why do you count one, two, three... in India?" he asked. "Here in America, we are taught to count zero, one, two, three..." Pillai explained to him a little bit of arithmetic and assured his grandson that Indians, and not Americans, had discovered zero. Barely 12 hours after he had explained the value of zero to the six-year-old, a zero was confronting him.

Over the radio, in the VIP shamiana, the control room, and all the monitoring stations the monotonous count continued, sending trajectories of worry lines through a hundred foreheads. Would safety officer Appavuraj have to 'destruct' the missile? The same monotonous voice was now counting up: "zero, one, two..."

Everything changed at that split second with a whoosh. BrahMos blasted out of its canister, shaking Colonel Vishnu Ram's truck. She flew straight up; in a split second, fire and smoke emitted from her side. Like a cobra that turns on its hood, the missile turned horizontal and rushed towards the horizon. That would have been a unique sight even for those who have watched Agnis, Prithvis or even Minutemans and Titans. All those ballistic missiles are launched vertically, and they slowly climb up into space. Here is a missile that suddenly turns on its head full 90 degrees. In another few seconds, she was lost to the naked or even to the binocled eye.

Not to the dozens of sensors and radars which were sending signals to scores of computer monitors. The monitors had already been showing the intended flight-path and one only had to monitor whether the missile was following it. Almost like a nursery-child's game of joining the dots. To eyes familiar with a ballistic missile flight path, this one looked grotesque. When the dots would be joined, it would look like the back of a giant snail.

That grotesque snail-back flight path is what makes BrahMos unique. It is easy to draw the flight path of a ballistic missile-a huge parabolic curve. The missile flies like a shell shot (though unlike a shell shot, it leaves the atmosphere and re-enters) from a cannon following all the laws of motion of Newton. And not even Newton can change its flight path.
But BrahMos is a cruise missile. She flies as if piloted by a skilled flier. In war, a fighter pilot takes off from his base, and climbs high into the sky. (Flying high saves fuel and thus gives him a longer range, than flying low.) But as he approaches enemy territory, he flies low so as to evade enemy radars.

BrahMos also does almost the same. As she approaches the target, BrahMos climbs down to just a few metres above the ground (much lower than a fighter plane) and closes in towards the target. The similarities end there. The fighter pilot delivers his bomb; whereas BrahMos hits the target with a 300kg warhead. A fighter plane closes in at subsonic or just above the speed of sound. BrahMos hits the target at almost three times the speed of sound, thus enhancing the impact and destructive power some seven times. A fighter plane, however low it approaches, may be picked up by the enemy radar; BrahMos is much sleeker, and is less prone to be spotted. And since it closes in at thrice the speed of sound, there is no time for the enemy to take evasive or counter-action.

The guidance technology of a cruise missile is the most complicated. Initially, the missile flies on inertial navigation, just like any other ballistic missile or rocket. But as it closes in on its target, the missile's navigation computer takes over. From this stage, it flies on a trajectory by matching with the ground data, either gravitationally or matching with the terrain images already fed into its navigational computers. In other words, it knows its target and also the route through which it has to fly to that target.

On the monitors in the control room, and the VIP shamiana, a hundred pairs of scientific and military eyes were glued on to the snail picture. One could see BrahMos rushing forward joining the dots. As she climbed up to about a 14-km altitude, Colonel Uniyal stabbed his thumb on a computer monitor and warned the Army officers: "At this point, you may find the missile following a trajectory at a little variance-up and down. That is not because the missile is deviating, but because radars cannot pick it up accurately."

And thus it happened. After seeming to deviate a bit, the missile followed the course that Pillai and his team had charted for her. As she approached the target, she dipped. And just about a few metres above the surface, she turned horizontal-and unlike the previous tests-and veered round the target, and hit it from behind-a last-second manoeuvring technology.
Sounds of applause rose from various corners of the vast test range, scaring away a flight of cranes in the Nisarg bird sanctuary. The sanctuary was built 12 years ago by a keen bird-watcher who used to frequent Chandipur then. He used to check into Room-4 (now named Mahendragiri) on the first floor of the spartan inspection bungalow and stay for days, mostly to contemplate on India's strategic technological potential, and occasionally to test an Agni or a Prithvi. How he saved a parrot from being swallowed by a snake is still the lore of the tea-boys, gardeners and janitors.

From the control room, Pillai dialled that old bird-watcher. "It was a 100 per cent success, Sir. We have met all the requirements of the Army. It flew 290 kilometres." And more technical details, partly in Tamil and partly in English. Then he handed over the phone to General Pawar. The general jerked to attention and spoke with utmost deference, addressing him, "Your Excellency". The bird-watcher of Chandipur is now his supreme commander, President Kalam.

Half a dozen more calls were made to Delhi to inform Defence Minister A.K. Antony, Army Chief General J.J. Singh and other dignitaries about the perfect launch. "My heartiest congratulations," one could hear Antony's otherwise subdued, but now excited, voice. "Soon we will see the system inducted in the Army."
How soon? The answer I heard later shattered all myths about DRDO's delays. The promise had been to deliver BrahMos to the Army next year, but Pillai told his colleagues: "Your job is going to be harder now; let us try to deliver the missile next month." In fact, this is what makes BrahMos different from other DRDO projects. Though under DRDO, BrahMos is run autonomously as an Indo-Russian private company. And it is the developer, maker and marketer of its product.

The young Army officers present at the launch were excited. For, in one month, there would be revolutionary change happening to the Army. Everyone knew it, but it was a young colonel who blurted it out to me, "Do you know what this means to us? Our strike capability has doubled."[/B]

It took me time to work out the arithmetic. It had taken the Indian Army nearly three decades to acquire a strike range of 35 km with the Bofors gun in the 1980s. In just another decade, India's missile scientists made it nearly five times with the 150-km Agni. (The 250-km Agni is for the Air Force.) Now the same scientists are giving them a capability to strike an enemy some 290 km away.

The strategic implications of such a capability are mind-boggling. Till now the Army was viewed, especially by the snooty Air Force, as a tactical force in conventional wars. Only the Air Force had the power to strike deep in enemy territory, but use of air power has always had the danger of escalating the war. The whole equation will change now. Without a single warplane having to cross the Indian airspace, without a single rifleman having to cross the border, the Army can deter an enemy with a threat to strike deep in his territory. And that goes with the doctrine of a winnable limited conventional war, enunciated in 1999 by the Kargil-victorious Army chief, General V.P. Malik.

Not that the air force has to be left behind. Having delivered the naval version, and proved the Army version, Pillai is eyeing two more platforms-the Sukhois for an air-launched version, and a submarine.

i would also say natrajan sir has been good chief and all three competitors for new post of DRDO chief are very capable people.

the big scandal is actually in choice of vice chief of army.

gen vk singh is recognised as very forthright soldier by some. it was said that is why he would not be chosen as he is not "munna". that is what has happened.

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 06 Aug 2009 02:37

ramana wrote:Is Aroor being paraochial?

he is deliberately stirring pot for publicity, shamelless fellow. there was no need to make comments about "india versus russia". sadly, this is the indian express "buddhi" which has stayed with him. if i talk about why that series of articles with him as writer (against drdo) was made to run also, there is huge issue even there.

munna · Post by **munna** » 06 Aug 2009 02:38

FT wrote:Russia, the regional behemoth, remains in deep trouble. Many analysts expect the economy to contract by 10 per cent this year

BRIC Economies and Financial Crisis

This July 27 report in FT mentions the deep economic doo doo Russia finds itself in and I guess an honest partner like India can bankroll quite a significant bit of their MI complex and Russians would not let the opportunity go lest they fall behind other countries by several multiples. Let us view the entire context of the global geopolitics and the opportunities that have arisen for us. Beg, Borrow or Steal should be the buzz word, but nothing beats friendly Bharatiyakarana of complex technologies. Jmtp

John · Post by **John** » 06 Aug 2009 02:43

Austin wrote:
John wrote:Brahmos is a ramjet which places limitations on its operational altitude IIRC they are most effective around ~40,000 ft any higher and their range degrades.
Yep thats what I was thinking , the Brahmos can fly anywhere between 5m to ~ 20 Km although its typical high altitude flight in a Hi-Lo flight trajectory is limited to ~ 14 Km.

One option is to take it high like 20Km on a Mig-31 and release it , its small wing should generate some lift and allow it to glide quite a distance as it looses altitude , as it reaches lets says ~ 12 - 14 km , its solid rocket booster can then kick in and ramjet takes over , it should get substantial increase in range if its release at higher altitude.

Yeah the range should much higher when air launched but it seems to be limited by MTCR. As for air launched Brahmos itself i am little doubtful whether it will ever see the light of day, russians have expressed no interest in it. Along with the fact that Su-30 requires structural modifications to carry them might make IAF think twice before purchasing it. IAF/IN ultimately will have to procure air launched harpoon/Exocet/uran for this purpose, i know there was tender for it.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 06 Aug 2009 02:53

NRao: If its nothing to do with BrahMos, then why is the report written by a BrahMos employee and placed on the BrahMos website? That in itself implies corporate intent (or intent of part of the corporation). Also, Aroor's article is full of direct statements about Pillai's dream of making Brahmos a fully Indian missile. Something smells fishy here, and someone will be required to do some serious explaining, either Aroor, Pillai, or perhaps even the "fearless leader" MMS.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 06 Aug 2009 03:10

After reading through the PDF, the following are some observations:

a) The point about ManTech being under Brahmos (as Arun pointed out) doesnt make sense. It should be outside of Brahmos Corp. The document sounds like a business plan that Brahmos put forward to MoD asking for funds

b) Its not clear where DRDO R&D stops and ManTech begins.

But besides these, the idea seeks to address a key problem that all of us are acutely aware of, especially after witnessing OFB's incompetence: mass manufacturing of high end defence products/components. ManTech might just be a front-end for reverse engineering and licensing production engineering drawings & material science data to the private & public sector firms. I dont see anything sinister about this - the idea looks right.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Aug 2009 03:12

Arun_S wrote:... then why is the report written by a BrahMos employee and placed on the BrahMos website?

to meet the indigenisation/bulk production requirements of high-end technologies in the field of supersonic and hypersonic cruise missiles.

That in itself implies corporate intent (or intent of part of the corporation).

Absolutely it does. It is meant to, that seems to be the only way out.

Also, Aroor's article is full of direct statements about Pillai's dream of making Brahmos a fully Indian missile.

I did not read it as "Pillai's dream of making Brahmos a fully Indian missile". And if we were to visit the Aroor quote:

In February last year, Pillai had told me, "As long as we do not control the critical technologies, i.e. engine and seeker, Russia will call all the shots in BrahMos, including cost which is critical to export competence."

I read that as "as long as Russia has something to do with BrahMos, we do not have any control, therefore we need to go on our own under the BrahMos umbrella". This does not mean that BrahMos would be sidelined - as Aroor (irresponsibly) implies. ManTech would be (If approved) a JV but "Made in India" (pure BS, but who cares?). Mother Russia would get paidin bananas from Kerala perhaps ............... but that is all accounting stuff. Who cares?

It also may be because India is ready to cross the 290 Km limit placed on BrahMos. But cannot say that this is a Russian JV. Which is perhaps what it is ALL about. Dunno.

Something smells fishy here, and someone will be required to do some serious explaining, either Aroor, Pillai, or perhaps even the "fearless leader" MMS.

What is fishy is crossing MTCR ......................... with a straight face.

ManTech.

ManTech is meant specially for fearless leader to keep a great posture and a very straight face and say "Yes, it is Made in India".

I am more excited because now India can have a CM that can blast Coco Island and Gwadar and whatever that stuff in SL and of course anything in BD. I love this >300 Kms CM that is truly China centric. (Have I gone totally OT? Sorry. Just too excited.)

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Aug 2009 03:13

Prem Kumar wrote:After reading through the PDF, the following are some observations:

a) The point about ManTech being under Brahmos (as Arun pointed out) doesnt make sense. It should be outside of Brahmos Corp. The document sounds like a business plan that Brahmos put forward to MoD asking for funds

b) Its not clear where DRDO R&D stops and ManTech begins.

But besides these, the idea seeks to address a key problem that all of us are acutely aware of, especially after witnessing OFB's incompetence: mass manufacturing of high end defence products/components. ManTech might just be a front-end for reverse engineering and licensing production engineering drawings & material science data to the private & public sector firms. I dont see anything sinister about this - the idea looks right.

How do you propose to beat the crap out of MTCR?

Who cares if DRDO is there or not, etc, etc, etc?

(Granted I am speculating.)

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Aug 2009 03:17

I think we should wait for a week or two for Russian reaction.

The question to them is bound to come up ............ Aroor - now - cannot sit quite. He is THE center of this storm.

IF Russia keeps quite or says it is OK or the like, then I am going to assume that MTCR is pretty much dead. In fact India may even be one more step closer to getting a seat on THAT table.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 06 Aug 2009 03:29

Vikram_S:
1. How does one achieve a sustainable and efficient hypersonic regime without using a scramjet? (Ramjets are most inefficient above speeds greater than ~Mach 5).

2. It is Aroor's comments that are being discussed and a denial or confirmation sought from Pillai owing to teh strategic nature of this project. Pillai and BrahMos need to respond to this ASAP. In cases like this, silence is tantamount to acceptance. Owing to the strangulation of a truly free, knowledgeable and unbiased press in India, it is only in forums such as BRF that questions can be asked. Some call BRF a small well and teh hoopla a storm in the cup, but we are happy to live as fog in a (prominent) well.

3. Nobody is accusing Pillai of corruption. His record of efficiency and discretion is truly outstanding at the very least, which makes statements and motives attributed to him in Aroor's article even more puzzling. For e.g., reliable reports indicate that even the Russian's were deeply impressed by the "S" shaped manoeuvres at low level demonstrated by the BrahMos at Pokhran, given the fact that the BrahMos is derived from teh Yakhont which is an anti-ship missile. However, the fate of BrahMos is not dictated by Pillai, but by people way above him in the GoI hierarchy.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 06 Aug 2009 03:42

NRao wrote:
How do you propose to beat the crap out of MTCR?

Who cares if DRDO is there or not, etc, etc, etc?

(Granted I am speculating.)

NRao Sir: My post wasnt meant to be critical of ManTech. On the contrary - except for a couple of operational details I highlighted, the idea is a very sound one.

Beating MTCR is super exciting. But since Brahmos is a JV, anything developed under its umbrella might automatically come under MTCR. In fact the >300 KM Brahmos should not even be called Brahmos. That's why it might make sense for ManTech to be outside Brahmos (unless of course they just develop the R&D, pass it to TATA and the latter comes up with a 1000 KM range supersonic "Gamuna"

)

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 06 Aug 2009 03:43

It is rare to find good project managers I say lets not mess with them

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 06 Aug 2009 03:46

Arun_S wrote:
3. Nobody is accusing Pillai of corruption. His record of efficiency and discretion is truly outstanding at the very least, which makes statements and motives attributed to him in Aroor's article even more puzzling. For e.g., reliable reports indicate that even the Russian's were deeply impressed by the "S" shaped manoeuvres at low level demonstrated by the BrahMos at Pokhran, given the fact that the BrahMos is derived from teh Yakhont which is an anti-ship missile. However, the fate of BrahMos is not dictated by Pillai, but by people way above him in the GoI hierarchy.

Sorry Arun, but your post quoted below did point fingers at Dr. Pillai unjustifiably (though you didnt explicitly say corruption).

That statement to Shiv Aroor is IMVHO cheap posturing by Sivathanu Pillai at the expense of the country he claims to serve. Empty tinpot to make noise to cry for topjob.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 06 Aug 2009 03:49

Vikram_S wrote:
ramana wrote:Is Aroor being paraochial?
he is deliberately stirring pot for publicity, shamelless fellow. there was no need to make comments about "india versus russia". sadly, this is the indian express "buddhi" which has stayed with him. if i talk about why that series of articles with him as writer (against drdo) was made to run also, there is huge issue even there.

This is not his first such stirring. He had already done that once about two years ago when Pillai's extension was in doubt.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2007/07/wa ... havan.html

I had taken him to task for writing such nonsense without any basis and proper research (my comment would be there). Seems like he is still at it. Simply search for Pillai in his blog and you will understand what I mean.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 06 Aug 2009 03:56

And I do not see why the onus is on Pillai to explain anything Aroor comes up with.

Its not like it was an interview with Aroor which contained this.

Like Aroors many "exclusives" of stuff which is already out there this could be another sensationalisation