Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 02 Jul 2009 11:57

At the risk of sounding pro-paki

Actually this aircraft (if linked properly with their AWACS, both the swedish variety and cheeni variety) gives the Pakis a leap in their capabilities. Especially if procured in numbers they are talking about (anywhere between 100-250). That article by tufail showed the pathetic state of their fleet with the F16's being pretty much the only aircraft capable of taking on Mig 29's of the IAF.

Since then, I believe that they have learned their lesson and gone on to aggressively modernizing (More F16 of later blocks, AMRAAMs, AWACS and now JF17).

Ofcourse all this assuming that there are some weapons/sensors integrated with it and its not just a flying "shell". Plus there is this engine issue....if all these are sorted out, it is a quantum leap over the F-7PG and Mirage III that they have in their fleet.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 02 Jul 2009 14:30

Anujan Sir,
You're hypothesis is bang on target. The Pakistan Armed Forces have always realized their capabilities and shortcomings and have used their resources accordingly. It only helps that the Armed Forces are in driving seat and hence resource allocation (however meager) and decision making is on time.

As for the JF-17, it is perfect answer to PAF's problems. In the past, they’ve maintained a decent fleet of 300odd combat aircrafts which were equivalent to the IAF. It was 80s onwards that the gulf between the IAF and PAF really increased. Apart from F-16, their second line of combat jets is no way match able to that of IAF. We have both quality and quantity (both improving over time). If you remember the initial planned induction of F-16s (before Pressler uncle spoiled the part), they wanted IIRC ~100odd F-16s and balance were to be other low end fighters. In today’s scenario, the JF-17 will be that second line of fighter a/c for home defense, CAS and limited strike while the new and upgraded F-16s and J-10 will the high tech component. They would have also reduced the type of a/c in their inventory. Works quite well for them

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 02 Jul 2009 19:02

ArmenT,
the role of jf17 assembly factory would be same as the overhaul and maintenance, i.e we are looking at one major installation for this or there could be second one at max. , the facility will beused for multiple purposes, and since the production in china is cheaper, they may have opted for final assembly to integrate their avionics and substitute some parts with that of chinese which they dont like due to poor qlty.

Anujan,
right from assembly to induction, the bandar is poised to become a major front line ac of paf, and due to above mentioned facility,the same kind that they have for mirages , expect that they will be inducting at least 120 acs of this category and since they have to retire jf6,7migs a right size will be 250+, used both for strike ,interceptions as well as maritime,.

rohitvats
the problem for paf of not having acs is solved but it is not about problems alone, if you look at their present orbat and doctrine of paf, it has stark similarity with India in terms of induction , say
su30(230)- maritime,strike,air dominance
mirage2k,mig29(~100)(strike ,interceptors)
mig21bis(~100)(interceptors)
jf17(250)strike,maritime,interceptors
f16,j10(100+) strike,air dominance
mirage,j6,7(200+) interceptors,strike
both have inducted 200+ acs for a common role i.e STRIKE
But if you look at the total number of acs for strike role it is greater in case of paf, while in case of IAF air dominance is given priority .

The strike gap from Indian side is covered by Jags hence its transformation is a vital step for Iaf, but it is often neglected.

*not including LCA and mig27 because of obvious reasons of numbers and age

K_Rohit · Post by **K_Rohit** » 02 Jul 2009 19:19

Samay wrote:ArmenT,
the role of jf17 assembly factory would be same as the overhaul and maintenance, i.e we are looking at one major installation for this or there could be second one at max. , the facility will beused for multiple purposes, and since the production in china is cheaper, they may have opted for final assembly to integrate their avionics and substitute some parts with that of chinese which they dont like due to poor qlty.

Anujan,
right from assembly to induction, the bandar is poised to become a major front line ac of paf, and due to above mentioned facility,the same kind that they have for mirages , expect that they will be inducting at least 120 acs of this category and since they have to retire jf6,7migs a right size will be 250+, used both for strike ,interceptions as well as maritime,.

rohitvats
the problem for paf of not having acs is solved but it is not about problems alone, if you look at their present orbat and doctrine of paf, it has stark similarity with India in terms of induction , say
su30(230)- maritime,strike,air dominance
mirage2k,mig29(~100)(strike ,interceptors)
mig21bis(~100)(interceptors)
jf17(250)strike,maritime,interceptors
f16,j10(100+) strike,air dominance
mirage,j6,7(200+) interceptors,strike
both have inducted 200+ acs for a common role i.e STRIKE
But if you look at the total number of acs for strike role it is greater in case of paf, while in case of IAF air dominance is given priority .

The strike gap from Indian side is covered by Jags hence its transformation is a vital step for Iaf, but it is often neglected.

*not including LCA and mig27 because of obvious reasons of numbers and age

I havent quite understood this argument. Mig 27 is older than J6 and Mirages? And Mig 27 numbers are small? And you havent included Jags in the number?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 02 Jul 2009 21:47

@Samay: I'm not convinced with your argument. The ORBAT that you mention is snapshot of today and is meaningless in absence of analysis of "Ifs and Whys" of the induction and the timelines for the same. PAF has been more consistent with the a/c type they induct. It is their finances and geopolitical situation that has forced their hand. In our case it is complete lack of foresight and strategic thinking in the MOD that has led to the hotch-potch situation. We have usually been reactionary in nature as far as procurement is concerned.

As for the strike vs air dominance philosophy is considered, well the argument is way off the marg.you've concurrently calculated the no of JF-17s and F-7/J-6/Mirage III&V. While the fact is JF-17 will replace all these. And in case you intend to really understand the role of a/c type in service, please see the Sqn level ORBAT of each AF and see their designation and operational history. A short intro to the Sqn will tell you the role and based on this the sqn dedicated to each profile can be gauged.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 03 Jul 2009 01:03

Pukistan to get Tiger attack Helis for France for free

http://www.zeenews.com/news544081.html

Guillaud assured Gilani that France would provide military equipment, including Tiger helicopters, to Pakistan.

Pukistan readily shows how productive begging can be!

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 03 Jul 2009 04:57

Pakis have launched massive intelligence infiltration in Indian Army networks in border areas esp Kashmir. As IA becomes network centric they will certainly face these attacks. They are being massively helped by Chinese/Pla hackers to hone the skills in intelligence gathering. I hope India produces dedicated counter cyber intelligence which can help rats burn their tails.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 04 Jul 2009 13:01

KrishG wrote:Pukistan to get Tiger attack Helis for France for free

http://www.zeenews.com/news544081.html

Guillaud assured Gilani that France would provide military equipment, including Tiger helicopters, to Pakistan.
Pukistan readily shows how productive begging can be!

I would seriously doubt that france would give anything for free. That too a tiger attack chopper. This seems more like the news that france was dying to sign a nuke deal with the porkis.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Jul 2009 18:24

Pak army helo crash killing 26 say sources.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/04/world ... l?_r=1&hpw

Pakistan Army Helicopter Crash Kills 26
PIR ZUBAIR SHAH and ISMAIL KHAN
Published: July 3, 2009

PESHAWAR, Pakistan — A Pakistani Army helicopter crashed in a northwestern tribal area that is a Taliban stronghold on Friday, killing at least 26 Pakistani soldiers and paramilitary fighters.

The New York Times
The military said the helicopter had technical problems, and several Pakistani security officials said it was carrying too many people, but Dawn TV reported that local officials said insurgents had shot it down. One security official also said bad weather might have contributed to the crash.

The security officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said that although the official number of those killed was 26, 41 people had died.

The Pakistani military has lost many troops in offensives against the Taliban, and the crash — which the authorities said killed three officers — is grim news for the army, whether militants were involved or not. It comes as the military is locked in renewed struggle with the Taliban and is preparing for what is sure to be a difficult, full-scale offensive in South Waziristan.

Earlier in the day, several residents in South Waziristan reported what they said was an attack on a militant training camp by an American drone that killed at least 13 people. A Pakistani intelligence official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, confirmed the attack in Mazarai Narai but said eight people had died.

The residents, who were reached by phone and requested anonymity because of security concerns, said most of the dead appeared to be militants. The United States routinely withholds comment on suspected drone attacks; there have been at least 40 since August.

Much of South Waziristan, as well as the area of the helicopter crash, in Chapri Ferozkhel, near the border of the Orakzai and Khyber tribal regions, are controlled by forces loyal to Baitullah Mehsud, a Taliban leader accused of masterminding some of the deadliest suicide attacks in Pakistan in recent years.

A government official said the aircraft that was lost Friday was a transport helicopter. Helicopter gunships have been shelling the area over the past several weeks.

The helicopter had been traveling from the Kurram tribal area to Peshawar, according to one security official who was not authorized to speak to the media. He said local witnesses said that the weather was bad and that the helicopter was flying low in an area of high mountains.

“So it could either be due to bad weather or because of excess weight, but nothing can be ruled out,” the security official said. According to the Web site of the Federation of American Scientists, the helicopter, an MI-17, can carry 24 troops. If 41 people were aboard, the aircraft would have been harder to maneuver, making it difficult to deal with bad weather and mountainous terrain.

The security official said that flying low could have made the helicopter vulnerable to being hit by militant fire. “The attack and transport helicopters usually fly high to avoid fire from the ground,” he said.

Ismail Khan reported from Peshawar, and Pir Zubair Shah from Islamabad, Pakistan. Eric Schmitt contributed reporting from Washington

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 08 Jul 2009 08:21

ashish raval wrote:Pakis have launched massive intelligence infiltration in Indian Army networks in border areas esp Kashmir. As IA becomes network centric they will certainly face these attacks. They are being massively helped by Chinese/Pla hackers to hone the skills in intelligence gathering. I hope India produces dedicated counter cyber intelligence which can help rats burn their tails.

It is a wet dream for IA to have hackers working for them. If someone is that good, he wants to move to western country or work for private sector to make money. What's he/she gonna get working long hours, measly pay, field duty. not even a thanks.

The way pakistan is arming herself they are working on a plan. They are using every opportunity to procure advance combat equipment from every nation. Once the dust is settled, they will regroup and launch a pre-emptive strike. They have started to make noise-no peace without kashmir.

Typical of Indian Netas, they will be again caught napping.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 09 Jul 2009 18:01

Made in Pakistan drones

It would come as a surprise to most Pakistanis that the country has an indigenous Unmanned Aerial Vehicle [UAV] industry. In fact, there are three private entities – East West Infiniti [EWI], Integrated Dynamics [ID] and Surveillance and Target Unmanned Aircraft [Satuma] – involved in the manufacturing of UAVs in Pakistan. In addition, three government enterprises, the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex [PAC], the Air Weapons Complex [AWC], and the National Development Complex [NDC] also produce UAVs.

The Pakistan government has repeatedly requested the US to send them drone technology, a request which, according to defense analyst Ayesha Siddiqa, has been persistently denied because “we always leak technology.” But what if Pakistan develops its own drones with a missile delivery system matching the American Predator?

At this point, the question of ‘what if’ doesn’t exist because Pakistan already possesses the capability to develop its own unmanned vehicles. But there is a big difference between producing unarmed UAVs, which Pakistan currently does, and the armed Predator drones which the US has been using in FATA.

Can Pakistan come up with a UAV carrying weapons?

Dr Hammad Bin Khaleeq, Satuma’s director in charge of mechanical design and manufacturing, Dr Haroon Javed Qureshi of EWI, and Raja Sabri Khan, CEO of Integrated Dynamics, all concur.

“It is possible,” Khaleeq tells Newsline. “It is not something beyond our capability. We only need to have support – financial support as well as time. These things don’t develop overnight.” He maintains that there have been huge amounts of investment from the government for the purpose of developing drones but state entities have failed to deliver the desired product. “Acquiring and integrating a weapon in drones is advanced and difficult. But it’s not out of our reach. If the government wants, the efforts can be put in.”

Qureshi confidently explains that if the drone project is headed solely by private enterprises, “I can assure you that my company, or, for that matter, Raja Sabri Khan’s Integrated Dynamics, or Satuma, can perhaps do it in three years. One has to keep in mind that all three companies have been in this particular business for 15 years and are well aware of the ground realities.”

However, Khan is sceptical about the three-year estimate. “I worked for Suparco from 1987 to 1997, before I started my own company. Right now, the only constraint in Pakistan developing a predator type drone is money,” Khan says. He also maintains that state enterprises lack will and passion, and agrees with Qureshi’s stance on the government backing commercial firms to develop such technology. Khan reveals that a minimum investment of $50 million would be required to initiate a drone project along the lines of the Predator, but it could take as long as eight years.

According to the three private enterprises the drone technology in Pakistan is nowhere near the American Predator. The Predator carries a Hellfire missile that Pakistan does not have. Instead, Pakistan has the Baktarshikan and the Tow anti-tank missile, which can strike as far as 3,000 yards. The maximum payload weight of the Tow missile is 100lb. The main difference between the Predator and Pakistani-manufactured drones is the wing load capability and the engine size. The Predator can carry far more payload weight [450lb] and can fly more than 20 hours, covering a distance of 3,700km. The missile capability depends on how much load the wing can carry. The current technology in Pakistan limits the companies in terms of how much load per square foot they can put on the wing.

“There is a thought process along these lines in Pakistan, but, as far as real work is concerned, nothing is being done. Several of the UAV programmes that are now being carried out will have the capability of carrying at least 150lb.” Khan goes on to emphasise that his company is not providing Americans with the drones being used in FATA, a common misconception.

The Predator (MQ-1) and Reaper (MQ-9) cost approximately $4.5 and $10.5 million, respectively. Qureshi claims: “We can develop a drone in half a million or a million dollars, not more. And it would be cheaper for us to operate the drone any day.”

The operating cost for a drone is broken down into three elements: the actual weapon, the human costs and the engineering resources – which keep the aircraft flying and operational, both in the field and in the workshops – including their refurbishment and upgrading, and the people who are actually flying in the field. Pakistan’s human resources costs are at least 10 times cheaper than those in the US.

Qureshi expresses his discontent with the military establishment and its enterprises heading the drone programme, saying that there is no drive and vision in these organisations. According to him, all state programmes involving drone manufacturing are headed by brigadiers. “They are all marking their time. Their motive is to do something that will result in their promotions. Soldiers just want another badge on their shoulders.” A regular speaker at military platforms, he doesn’t mince his words. “You [military personnel] want development in military technology, so remember that there is no on-and-off button in this process,” he tells them to their faces. “This project should have continuity in research and development. The best you can do is to leave us alone. Let us develop it ourselves. Let us operate like a commercial entity.”

The Predator, the Reaper and all related programmes in the world were privately driven innovations, claims Qureshi. “None of them are state-established. They [the companies] come up with a vision and present it to the state which says, ‘Very well, how much would it cost to develop this product?’ Whatever amount it is, the state gets that amount sanctioned and they tell the company to put up matching funds. Suppose the total developing cost is $50 million, we [the company] put up 15% and they [the government] give us 85%. These are the yardsticks one should consider. This project would be evaluated after two to three years. If you’re not meeting the yardsticks, the state pulls the plug on you [the business].”

One could sense the anger in him. He mentions a recent decision by the Pakistani military establishment that he considers a blunder. In 2006, the army bought 28 UAVs from EMT, a German manufacturer, at a cost of $24 million, and the Pak Air Force bought 24 Italian Galalio Falco’s – medium-altitude endurance tactical UAVs. Qureshi says that the same kind of UAVs could have been delivered for $4 million from within Pakistan.

The civilian government might still be unaware of Pakistan’s home-grown drone manufacturing capability and industry. Both Qureshi and Khaleeq claim that they have not been approached by the civilian leadership to develop drones with missile-carrying capability.

“I don’t know if they are aware of our existence, and we don’t care if they do or if they don’t. We are a private company and we haven’t approached the political leadership. We don’t interact with politicians,” Khaleeq says.

When asked if President Zardari is aware of this, Qureshi argues that he doesn’t know if the president knows or not. “Zardari himself is standing on one foot. But if the leadership commits to this project, we can have a drone carrying weapons, made and operated in Pakistan.” Khan tells me that due to a lack of financial capital, his company is not moving in the direction of developing anything of the sort. “We need the backing of the government,” he urges.

Currently, Pakistani-manufactured drones are closer to the American Shadow drone programme. Shadow 200 is being used by the US Marines in Afghanistan and Iraq. Shadow has small experimental delivery systems and relatively less endurance and range. Pakistani manufacturers have not copied UAV designs; they have been successful in developing their own UAV models. In addition, there is no doubt that Pakistan can develop its own UAVs because commercial companies have a proven track record.

Drones were first produced in 1983 by the Malir Air Defence School in Karachi. Since then, others have gotten into the act. EWI, established in 1983, was approached by Suparco in 1993 to develop a UAV. Qureshi, EWI’s founder and managing director, informs Newsline that the Pakistani establishment had approached him with a half-hearted effort to develop such a technology.

“The chairman of Suparco told us in 1993 to develop a UAV in three months. We declined, as it was out of the question to develop something of the sort in such a short amount of time. Then they came back in 1995 and gave us a one-year period,” Qureshi recalls. “A while later, they ran out of money.”

Coming from a military family, Qureshi has a fair idea of the ins and outs of the military. His father was a brigadier in the Pakistan Army. Qureshi, on the other hand, was in pursuit of bridging the gap between the East and the West in terms of technological advancement and exchange of information between people from both regions of the world. This obsession was what initially pushed him to found East West Bridge, now known as East West Infiniti.

According to Qureshi, the US military itself is not yet trained to operate UAVs. The person who operates the Predator [being used in Afghanistan and bordering Pakistan] is the contractor who supplies it. The functions of taking off, landing and flying the drone are carried out by the engineering element. Only the weaponry is handled by people in uniform. Essentially, the company that manufactures the drones has the joystick, and the person in uniform presses a button to release the missile to strike the target.

EWI initiated its serious UAV business model in 1995. Qureshi outlines their objective, to develop an unmanned aircraft covering a distance of 100km at 150 km/h, with an endurance time of four to five hours. For a UAV to be successful, he explains, one needs to fly it as slowly as possible, to get good imagery from the sky.

“We collaborated with the newly-founded company Satuma in 1995, and formed Satuma Infiniti Technology,” says Qureshi. “We developed two UAV models and we had a fairly decent device. Also, every senior military officer was aware of our products.”

The ferry range of EWI’s UAV was around 400km. “We gave our last demo in 1999 in Islamabad, two months before the military coup took place,” he says.

In 2001, EWI changed course and abandoned developing drones because it was too costly. According to Qureshi, it was costing his company around Rs 1.5 million a month. Key costs were the senior employees – PhDs and autopilot experts. Currently, EWI develops micro-drones and unmanned airships. Hardly two feet in size and electric-powered, the micro drone is like a bird-size spy plane. The unmanned airships fly at a ceiling of 3,000 feet with an autopilot mechanism, and can carry a payload of 50kg. The sole buyer of this spy plane is Pakistan’s military.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 23 Jul 2009 06:48

French connection, déjà vu ---- Taj M Khattak

The only blemish on this otherwise healthy relationship between France and Pakistan was the detention of the Pakistani Navy's submarine, PNS/M Khalid, after our nuclear explosion, when it had been handed over to the Navy and was flying the Pakistani ensign. This was an unheard-of breach of international law and norms.

The earlier French acquisitions were relatively free from corrupt practices. The French not having perfected the art of commercial marketing in their early forays into Pakistan or the officials negotiating contracts were not for sale in the good-old days.

yeah right.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 26 Jul 2009 01:29

FAS Obtains Key Report on US Arms Exports

http://www.fas.org/programs/ssp/asmp/pu ... July17.pdf

The incremental lifting of the ban on arms transfers and other security assistance to Pakistan began shortly after the 9/11 terrorists attacks and culminated in the sale 36 F-16 aircraft in 20064 – a watershed moment in the United States’ on-again, off-again relationship with Pakistan.5 Weapons delivered to Pakistan in FY08 included $81 million in communications equipment, 867 TOW anti-tank missiles worth more than $26 million, and eighty-eight 155 mm howitzers valued at more than $25 million.

"Section 655" Reports to Congress:
FY 2008: Includes FMS, EDA, IMET, and drawdown assistance. Broken down by country.
http://fas.org/programs/ssp/asmp/factsa ... x.html#655

vina · Post by **vina** » 30 Jul 2009 04:36

Alright. Her it is. Pakistan's bheek /baksheesh list for the air raids against Baitullah Mehsud. Wish list of more F16s and IR pods and mid air refuelling.

Evidently, those dorks were using Google Earth for targeting!. I find that very hard to believe. Isn't G.E imagery rather dated (2 to 3 years) and not current ? Check it out Pakistan's Air War Against Taliban

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 30 Jul 2009 05:08

Quoting some interesting snippets from the above

The air force’s new tools and tactics have several sources. The air force has without fanfare accepted some American assistance, like sophisticated surveillance equipment and high-grade images.

Pakistani officials are urging the Obama administration to lease Pakistan upgraded F-16s, until its own new fighters are delivered in the next year or two. This would allow Pakistani pilots to fly night missions, impossible with their current aircraft.

“The biggest handicap we had in Bajaur was that we didn’t have good imagery,” Air Chief Marshal Qamar said. “We didn’t have good target descriptions. We did not know the area. We were forced to use Google Earth.

“I didn’t want to face a similar situation in Swat,” he said.

In advance of the Swat campaign, the air force equipped about 10 F-16s with high-resolution, infrared sensors, provided by the United States, to conduct detailed reconnaissance of the entire valley.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 30 Jul 2009 23:06

Why is this not being covered here?
China delivers warship to Pakistan:navy
Pakistan Navy receives first Chinese F-22P frigate
Friends
PNS Zulfiqar is the first new frigate that PN has recieved since its inception and thus can be considered as a serious upgradation of capability. This ship will be accompanied by Z9 helicopter which is a eurocopter dauphin built by Chinese under license.
With the OHP lease and these frigates this indicates an unprecedented improvement in PN.

question regarding the date of induction,
is this induction being done under hurry after knowledge of date of the launch of INS Arihant, or was it actually planned at this date?
edit: wiki links say it was to be delivered in august, perhaps slight expedience for h&d sake.

arun · Post by **arun** » 01 Aug 2009 16:25

X Posted.

The martial spirit of Pakistan’s security forces on display

:

Militants kidnap 10 FC men in NWA

Friday, July 31, 2009

By Mushtaq Yusufzai & Malik Mumtaz Khan

PESHAWAR/MIRAMSHAH: Dozens of Taliban militants attacked the British-era Girdi Rogha Fort on the Esha-Razmak Road in North Waziristan Agency on Tuesday night and kidnapped 10 soldiers.

Officials said the Taliban militants affiliated with commander Hafiz Gul Bahadur, after hours of fighting, kidnapped 10 personnel of the Shawal Rifles, a wing of the paramilitary Frontier Corps (FC).

Ahmadullah Ahmadi, a spokesman for North Waziristan Taliban commander Hafiz Gul Bahadur, however claimed that their fighters had kidnapped 20 soldiers.The Pakistan Army spokesman and ISPR Director General Maj Gen Athar Abbas denied the reports.

“That is not correct. Had anything happened, I would have the knowledge,” he added.Official sources told The News that dozens of Taliban militants attacked the historic fort with heavy weapons, including rocket-propelled grenades and AK-47 assault rifles. …………….............

The News

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 04 Aug 2009 16:44

x-post from tsp thread
Complete Paki Orbat from Irantracker.org

Forces deployed in current conflicts:

* 37th Mechanized Infantry Division, I Corps – Swat (based out of Mangla)
* 19th Infantry Division, X Corps – northern Swat (based out of Rawalpindi)
* 7th Infantry Division, XI Corps – North Waziristan (based out of Peshawar)
* 9th Infantry Division, XI Corps – South Waziristan respectively (based out of Peshawar)
* All Frontier Corps and Frontier Constabulary units in NWFP, FATA and Baluchistan, based in theaters of operations.

Order of Battle for entire Pakistani military:

Forces under Army command:

GHQ[2] – Rawalpindi[3] (Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani)

I Corps[4] – Mangla (Lt. Gen. Nadeem Ahmed[5])

6th Armored Division – Kharian

17th Mechanized Infantry Division[6] – Kharian (Maj. Gen. Nasser Khan Janjua[7])

37th Mechanized Infantry Division – Gujranwala (Maj. Gen. Ashfaq Nadeem[8]); operating in Swat after taking over 17th Mechanized Infantry Division responsibilities[9]

II Corps[10] – Multan (Lt. Gen. Sikandar Afzal[11])

1st Armored Division – Multan

14th Infantry Division[12] – Okara (Maj. Gen. Mohammad Ijaz Chaudhry[13])

40th Infantry Division – Okara

IV Corps[14] – Lahore (Lt. Gen. Ijaz Ahmed Bakhshi[15])

10th Infantry Division – Lahore

11th Infantry Division – Lahore

3rd Independent Armored Brigade – Lahore

212th Independent Infantry Brigade – Lahore (Brig. Syed Amjad Shabbir[16])

X Corps[17] – Rawalpindi (Lt. Gen. Tahir Mahmood[18])

Force Commander Northern Areas – Gilgit

12th Infantry Division – Murree

19th Infantry Division – Jhelum (Maj. Gen. Sajjad Ghani[19]); operating in northern Swat[20]

23rd Infantry Division[21] – Gujrat (Maj. Gen. Khadim Hussain[22])

111st Independent Infantry Brigade – Rawalpindi

XI Corps – Peshawar[23] (Lt. Gen. Mohammad Masood Aslam[24]); Responsible for NWFP, Baluchistan, Afghan border, and, previously, reinforcement of eastern formations along border with India[25]

7th Infantry Division – Mardan (Maj. Gen. Naweed Zaman[26]); involved in operations in North Waziristan[27]

9th Infantry Division – Kohat (Maj. Gen. Khalid Rabbani[28]); involved in operations in South Waziristan[29]

XXX Corps[30] – Gujranwala (Lt. Gen. Nadeem Taj[31])

8th Infantry Division – Sialkot

15th Infantry Division – Sialkot

XXXI Corps[32] – Bahawalpur (Lt. Gen. Muhammad Yousaf[33])

14th Infantry Division[34] – Pano Aqil (Maj. Gen. Mohammad Nawaz[35])

35th Infantry Division – Bahawalpur

105th Independent Brigade Group

Frontier Corps (FC) – The FC is one of five Paramilitary Forces, which are subordinate to the Ministry of the Interior in peacetime and to the GHQ in war; it consists of 14 units based in the NWFP and 13 units based in Baluchistan.[36]

FC in NWFP[37] – Peshawar[38] (Maj. Gen. Tariq Khan[39]); responsible for the Afghan border and the FATA[40]

Bajaur Scouts – Khar, Bajaur Agency[41] (Col. Nauman Saeed[42])

Chitral Scouts[43] – (Col. Suhail Iqbal[44])

Dir Scouts[45] – Balambat, Dir Agency[46]

Khushal (Khan) Scouts[47]

Khyber Rifles – Landi Kotal, Khyber Agency[48] (Col. Qaiser Alam[49])

Kurram Militia – (Col. Qazi Riaz[50])

Mahsud Scouts – (Col. Mujahid Hussain[51])

Mohmand Rifles – (Col. Saif Ullah[52])

Orakzai Scouts[53]

Shawal Rifles[54]

South Waziristan Scouts – Wana, South Waziristan Agency

Dargai[55]

Jandola[56]

Manzai[57]

Seplatoi[58]

Serwakai[59]

Tiarza[60]

Zalai[61]

Zam Chan[62]

Swat Scouts[63]

Thall Scouts[64]

Tochi Scouts[65] – Mir Ali[66]

FC in Baluchistan[67] – Quetta (Maj. Gen. Salim Nawaz[68]); responsible for the Baluchistan border

Frontier Constabulary[69] – Peshawar (Commandant Zafarullah Khan[70]); responsible for the border between FATA and NWFP and, while independent, associated with the Frontier Corps[71]

Army Aviation Corps – Rawalpindi (Maj. Gen. Tanveer Ullah Khan[72])

9th (Composite) Squadron – Peshawar[73]

Military Police Corps – Dera Ismail Khan[74]

Armored Corps – Nowshera (Maj. Gen. Najeeb Uz-Zaman[75])

Service Corps – Nowshera[76]

Corps of Artillery – Nowshera[77]

Corps of Engineers[78] – Risalpur (Maj. Gen. Muhammad Asif[79])

Corps of Signals – Kohat[80]

Special Services Group (SSG) – Cherat[81] (Maj. Gen. Muhammad Haroon Aslam[82])

Division Troops[83]

Akbar Company (Combat Diver Unit)

Iqbal Company (Communications Unit)

Zarrar Company (Counter-Terrorism)

1st Brigade[84]

1st Commando Battalion

Ayub Company

Liaqat Company
Kamal Company
Mitha Company

2nd Commando Battalion

Ghazi Company
Tipu Company
Quaid Company
Bilal Company

4th Commando Battalion

Shaheen Company
Jungju Company
Yaqub Company
Yusuf Company

2nd Brigade

3rd Commando Battalion

Hamza Company
Ibrahim Company
Zakria Company
Easa Company

Forces under Air Force command:

AHQ[85] – Islamabad (Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman[86])

Northern Air Command[87] – Peshawar[88] (Air Vice Marshal Faaiz Amir[89])

No. 36 (Tactical Attack) Wing – Peshawar

No. 16 Squadron[90]

No. 26 Squadron[91]

No. 81 Squadron[92]

kasthuri · Post by **kasthuri** » 04 Aug 2009 19:17

A sensible writer in "The News"

http://www.thenews.com.pk/print1.asp?id=191145

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 05 Aug 2009 17:31

Pilot killed in Pakistan Air Force plane crash
Islamabad, Aug 5 (Xinhua) A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) pilot was killed Wednesday when his aircraft crashed near Attock city on a training flight, the air force said in a statement.
The PAF said that the FT-7 aircraft went down because of technical problems near Attock city in the eastern Punjab province Wednesday.

It said that the pilot, Shahryar Nisar, died in the crash .

Jagan do you have any data on crashes this year in PAF? It seems they are loosing a lot of T-37 and FT-7s, mostly trainers i guess.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 05 Aug 2009 17:32

^
kasthuri, thats very subtle psyops.

If the recent US offer of sale and co-production of F-18 Hornet E/F series to India materialises it will bring a qualitative upgrading in its delivery systems. With the help of Israel and US, India is also developing a long-range reconnaissance capability and an air defence system. India’s missile capability is set to grow at a steady pace. It has developed both ballistic and cruise missile technology providing it the ability to project power. India is improving range and accuracy of its long range missiles to be able to reach potential targets in China. Pakistan has kept pace with India in both missile and nuclear development and have operational missiles with a range of 2000 km that practically cover most of India.

on an average a better article by their standards, yet the usual does of psyops is mixed subtly.

soutikghosh · Post by **soutikghosh** » 06 Aug 2009 03:53

Pakistan's first Air to Air refuelling capable combat planes: ROSE Upgraded Mirages

http://i332.photobucket.com/albums/m348 ... 10/1-9.jpg

http://i332.photobucket.com/albums/m348 ... 10/4-6.jpg

http://i332.photobucket.com/albums/m348 ... 10/5-4.jpg

http://i332.photobucket.com/albums/m348 ... 10/7-6.jpg

http://i332.photobucket.com/albums/m348 ... a10/fg.jpg

http://i332.photobucket.com/albums/m348 ... a10/ki.jpg

http://i332.photobucket.com/albums/m348 ... a10/as.jpg

http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz51 ... G_1547.jpg

shynee · Post by **shynee** » 08 Aug 2009 07:40

Pakistan Navy to get US frigate

LAHORE: USS McInerney, a US Navy frigate, is slated for transfer to Pakistan following its decommissioning, a report in the Stars and Stripes, a US military newspaper, said on Friday.

The 30-year-old vessel will fly the flag of Pakistan after retirement from the US Navy next year.

Countries such as Pakistan can be granted US ships no longer in commission. The required repairs or alterations are paid for with US foreign military aid. The cost for the vessel’s refurbishments, including anti-submarine missile defence, is set at $65 million. daily times monitor

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 08 Aug 2009 08:48

India will be inducting satpura and new talwar and these pigs would be getting a 32 year old ship. Good Good...

tripathi · Post by **tripathi** » 08 Aug 2009 18:34

vavinash wrote:India will be inducting satpura and new talwar and these pigs would be getting a 32 year old ship. Good Good...

how many yrs old ins jalashwa is or for that matter ins virat,ins vikramaditiya,ins vikrant all were 2nd hand procurment by indian navy.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 08 Aug 2009 19:56

for its price (which is 0 I guess) it would be a good ASW platform for PN provided they have the relevant helos. it can carry 2 ASW helos BTW. which helo will PN use, will they get the sh-60 seahawks too ?

incidentally, all OHP class frigates have had their mk13 single arm launchers removed on the retirement of the SM-1 missile. unfortunately the ability to fire the harpoon also went away with that per wiki. wonder if the ship will be modified again for the pakis to give a harpoon ability or it will stay a dedicated ASW ship.

oh, all this to hunt taliban subs surely !

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 08 Aug 2009 20:07

^ Its the capabilities that the platform carries that matter. It will be quite a lot more capable than the Leander class that PN is replacing. Dunno if it can fire barber missile.
Apart from the fact that they are getting it for free, we are buying it. But surely quite an improvement in their ASW capabilities. As I had said earlier 0.1 is much better than 0.
PS why no discussion on F22 frigate acquisition by TSPN?

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 08 Aug 2009 21:06

tripathi, spoken like a true land lubber. Read up on carriers, LPD's before spouting rubbish. LoL comparing viraat or jalashwa to a measly frigate.

The pakis will be happy with OHP but it really offers then no protection from IN. They will ned to equip the ship with harpoons and FM-90's. I don't see them buying Sh-60's most likely Z-9's or old seakings.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 08 Aug 2009 22:09

tripathi, true we bought old ships but ones that still could perform well. why ?
because all the examples you give are of ships with considerable air arms. modernise that and have modern capabilities from the same old ship !!

KM, the F-22P is about the same level as the P25A class with a bit more signature reduction.
it doesn't change the balance in any way does it ?

if I were IN I would be much more concerned with the harpoon firing patrol boats they are buying from turkey. although I'm not sure the deal actually materialised.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 08 Aug 2009 22:52

RM,
If you see what is happening with respect to PN, you see a considerable impetus on ASW especially in the new acquisitions in the surface and air fleet.
P3Cs getting an upgrade, the OHP with a focus on ASW, and the F-22P with its Z9C.
It is not the F-22 per se, but the Z9 which changes things. It has higher payload capacity as well as loiter time as compared to the alouettes, that does change a few things. The frigates will be the first new frigate PN ha ever operated, and will serve for a long time, giving it decent experience. Also unlike the harpoons, the silkworms would be amenable to modifications and available in numbers. All this is mostly to create a surface fleet capable of detecting and even thwarting a sub attack.
An attack from surface fleet can be detected by the P3Cs as well as aging Atlantiques, and it would be easier to detect it by other means too (Sats, comms monitoring etc).
If Paks are thinking about making a sneak attack using stealth boats and subs, the next thing Paks would like is to avoid a blockade, atleast for some days.
I too have been following the stealth boat acquisitions. It too falls in line with this theory of mine.
The stealth boats were acquired from Turkey without any kind of armament including guns, though other equipment could have been acquired. There wont be harpoons fitted on them. But silkworms can be and in my opinion will be its main armament. It would create a attacking unit similar to the missile boats we possessed in 72.

arun · Post by **arun** » 09 Aug 2009 10:33

Pakistani imports of weaponry per the UN Register of Conventional Arms over the past 5 years. These imports are on a calendar year basis and are compiled on the self declaration by the concerned UN member:

CY 2008:

67 M109A5 Howitzer
03 Mirage-VF (Ex Libya)
10 F-16A/B (Refurbished?)
06 JF-17

CY 2007:

18 Al- Khalid MBT
02 JF-17
12 Refurbished Cobra Helicopters (AH1F?)

CY 2006:

10 MBT (Model unspecified. From PRC)
03 Mirage-V (Ex Libya)

CY 2005:

10 MBT (Model unspecified. From PRC)
02 F-16A Block 15 (Refurbished?)

CY 2004:

10 MBT (Model unspecified. From PRC)
63 D-30 122 mm Howitzer (PRC)

CY 2003:

80 D-30 122 mm Howitzer (PRC)
05 A-5 Fantan

UN Register of Conventional Arms

I thought the Al-Khalid MBT was supposedly “indigenous” so why have the Pakistani’s declared to the UN (CY 2007) that they are imported from the PRC

.

tripathi · Post by **tripathi** » 09 Aug 2009 10:55

reading them sir got the difference.........peace

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Aug 2009 11:22

> 67 M109A5 Howitzer

good example of khan giving a steroid injection to its pet bandicoot.
these are big force multipliers, 4 regiments of proven & latest guns.

arun · Post by **arun** » 09 Aug 2009 20:40

X Post.

The US catches on a bit late in the day that the Pakistani’s, particularly the Pakistani military, has adroitly milked them :

US anti-terror aid to Pak funds corruption in military: Report

Washington: The US 'thank you' to Pakistan in aid to fight terror during 2002-08 cost American tax payers 2.37 billion dollars but it has "funded" large-scale corruption in Pakistan's military and security services, according to a report.

The report by Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs of the prestigious Harvard University said there has been widespread agreement in this country that the US aid has not been spent effectively in Pakistan over the past decade .........................

The report said the Pakistani military did not use most of the funds for the agreed objective of fighting terror. Pakistan bought much conventional military equipment.

Examples include F-16s, aircraft-mounted armaments, anti-ship and anti-missile defense systems, and an air defence radar system costing $200 million, despite the fact that the terrorists in the FATA have no air attack capability..........

There is also clear evidence of corruption within the Pakistani army, the report said. The US provided $1.5 million to reimburse Pakistan for damage to Navy vehicles which had not been used in combat, $15 million for the Pakistani army to build bunkers for which there is no evidence that they exist, and about $30 million for Pakistani road building for which there is no such evidence either.

Zee News

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Aug 2009 20:54

KM, very interesting insight !!

I always had the feeling that TSPN was finally resigned to the futility in trying to match IN conventionally, even for the limited objective of sea denial and has been moving towards an Iranian Navy type guerilla force of sorts, with the larger capital assets serving as holding forces while smaller expendable forces did the actual job in almost fedayeen mode.

your observations would fit in snugly with this doctrine isn't it ?

I too have been following the stealth boat acquisitions. It too falls in line with this theory of mine.
The stealth boats were acquired from Turkey without any kind of armament including guns, though other equipment could have been acquired. There wont be harpoons fitted on them. But silkworms can be and in my opinion will be its main armament. It would create a attacking unit similar to the missile boats we possessed in 72.

'71 you mean.

TSPN already has some chinese knock-offs of the OSA boats. I suspect they will progressively upgrade to the newer PRC cruise missiles as the silkworms are long in the tooth.

plausible targets will include the ports and refinery in gujarat, I hope those installations have some permanent SAM cover.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 09 Aug 2009 21:19

RM,

The turkish patrol boats are mainly for defending their shores. PN is buying these to prevent a 71 like attack on their ports and harbors. They will need larger ships to tow them to any decent target. Which will be a sitting duck for MKI's and Jags. The PN is resigned to the fact that the best they can do in terms of surface ships are outdated chinese ships and 32 year old american ships. In order to defend their shore based assets they need small missile boats in numbers.

arun · Post by **arun** » 10 Aug 2009 09:14

arun wrote:X Post.

The US catches on a bit late in the day that the Pakistani’s, particularly the Pakistani military, has adroitly milked them :

US anti-terror aid to Pak funds corruption in military: Report

Washington: The US 'thank you' to Pakistan in aid to fight terror during 2002-08 cost American tax payers 2.37 billion dollars but it has "funded" large-scale corruption in Pakistan's military and security services, according to a report.

The report by Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs of the prestigious Harvard University said there has been widespread agreement in this country that the US aid has not been spent effectively in Pakistan over the past decade .........................

Zee News

Times of UK’s take on the matter:

August 9, 2009

US ‘aids Pakistani corruption’

Glasgow-born counter-terrorism adviser Azeem Ibrahim says money given by the US government has been used to buy weapons

Mark Macaskill

Billions of pounds of American aid given to Pakistan for the war on terror have been used to bolster its defences against India in its dispute over Kashmir or looted by corrupt officials, according to a study by a government adviser………………

Ibrahim found that £121m was spent on an air defence radar system despite terrorists in the region having no air attack capability.

About £48m per month was paid to soldiers to fight during months when there was a ceasefire, £33m to maintain helicopters which were not maintained, £18m for roads which were never built, £9m for bunkers which were never dug and £900,000 to repair damage to navy vehicles which did not see combat. Last year, of the £550m of military support the United States gave Pakistan, only £180m reached the army, according to American government reports.

Ibrahim’s study calls for greater scrutiny of how American aid is spent in Pakistan and for a crackdown on the madrasahs, which have been used to groom Islamist extremists.

“For the past eight years, US taxpayers’ money has funded corruption in the Pakistani army and intelligence service,” said Ibrahim.

“It has enriched Pakistani individuals at the expense of the proper functioning of Pakistani institutions. It has provided already kleptocratic institutions with further incentives for corruption.

“Despite the Bush administration’s stated intention to encourage democratisation, it actually discouraged democratisation in Pakistan. But perhaps worst of all, it actually hindered Pakistan’s ability to fight terrorists.” ……………

Times Online

The discussion paper put out by Harvards Belfer Center is titled :

US Aid To Pakistan – US Taxpayers Have Funded Pakistani Corruption

The paper (1.5 MB) is available here:

Clicky

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 11 Aug 2009 10:20

Housing F-16, Amraam missiles at Jacobabad: PAF wavering to sell non-operational land

Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is reportedly wavering in taking decision to sell its non-operational land as directed by the Prime Minister, to develop infrastructure in Jacobabad (Sindh) for housing the contracted F-16 aircraft and Amraam missiles, expected to be completed by January 2010, official sources told Business Recorder.

At the same time, the government has refused to assume any financial liability in this case and directed the PAF to retire the loans as early as possible from the sale proceeds of its land.

"PAF will have to comply with the US government (USG) quality and security standards whereby delivery of F-16 and Amraam missiles would only materialise after a favourable survey report from National Disclosure Policy Committee of the USG," sources said.

Sources said that the Prime Minister had approved, in principle, the infrastructure development of Shahbaz Forward Operating Base (FOB) as Main Operating Base (MOB) at an estimated cost of Rs 7.000 billion by January 2010 to house the contracted F-16 aircraft and financing of the development project through the sale of non-operational land owned by PAF in 2007.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 11 Aug 2009 16:09

Rahul M wrote:KM, very interesting insight !!

I always had the feeling that TSPN was finally resigned to the futility in trying to match IN conventionally, even for the limited objective of sea denial and has been moving towards an Iranian Navy type guerilla force of sorts, with the larger capital assets serving as holding forces while smaller expendable forces did the actual job in almost fedayeen mode.

your observations would fit in snugly with this doctrine isn't it ?

'71 you mean.

TSPN already has some chinese knock-offs of the OSA boats. I suspect they will progressively upgrade to the newer PRC cruise missiles as the silkworms are long in the tooth.

plausible targets will include the ports and refinery in gujarat, I hope those installations have some permanent SAM cover.

RM,
71 indeed.
TSP has this tendency to try and do things as were done previously. Their attack in Kargil was an attempt to repeat Siachen but on their side. IIRC 65 and 71 armor attacks were done on lines of German armor offenses on WW II. So yes, both possibilities, ie attacks with and without escorts exist.
SAM cover might help against the missile attacks, but good radar coverage would definitely deter such misadventure, however the small stealth missile boats will have an advantage vis a vis a non stealth missile boat or conventional frigate. Newer generations of silkworms are being developed by PRC, I guess by now they would have been with TSP.

vavinash wrote:RM,

The turkish patrol boats are mainly for defending their shores. PN is buying these to prevent a 71 like attack on their ports and harbors. They will need larger ships to tow them to any decent target. Which will be a sitting duck for MKI's and Jags. The PN is resigned to the fact that the best they can do in terms of surface ships are outdated chinese ships and 32 year old american ships. In order to defend their shore based assets they need small missile boats in numbers.

vavinash,
if they need the Turkish boats in number, please tell me how many numbers they have ordered? Our Osa class boats too were primarily for shore defense, but the fact remains that they were used offensively. If we can do it they can do it too. Also refer how close ports like Jakhau and Dwarka are to TSPN bases. Read more here
For the larger boats to be sitting ducks they would have to be detected first. Maritime recon capabilities of IN at the moment are not even adequate at the moment. After the slap they received in 71, I dont think TSPN is going to sit quiet this time.
Its not the equipment, but the tactics in which the equipment is used that matters. Dont be fooled by the outer appearance. We bombed east Pak with an aircraft carrier with leaking boilers and we were successful.
And not everything which is new and hitech is useful. That kind of thinking is called Next-war-itis
Stop being a jingo and think rationally once, is it possible to do what me and RM are saying?
We think so, and just because a vessel is old or not the ultimate in technology, doesnt mean it is not a threat. Never underestimate the enemy.

arun · Post by **arun** » 19 Aug 2009 11:19

X Posted.

The Pakistan Army unleashes its genocidal doctrine perfected in the former East Pakistan to suppress Bangladeshi’s against the Pashtun of FATA.

Is this Jihad in the way of Allah

:

Pakistan 'army death squad hangs Taliban body from lamp post'

Pakistani security forces have been accused of sending death squads to execute suspected Taliban militants, in one case hanging a body from a lamp post.

By Dean Nelson in Islamabad and Emal Khan in Peshawar
Published: 6:00AM BST 19 Aug 2009

The country's leading human rights lawyer, Asma Jahangir, accused the armed forces of waging a campaign of extra-judicial killings in the Swat valley and called for an independent inquiry after reports that 20 bodies were found in a mass grave at the weekend.

The Human Right Commission, which she founded, said it had compiled evidence that at least six of the dead had been shot by the security services.

It also alleged that more than 100 bodies have been found dumped in the streets of towns and villages in Swat since July 13 ………………

In Dargai in the neighbouring Malakand district, the body of a Taliban militant was left hanging from a lamp post with a note pinned to his body saying "anyone who joins the Taliban will meet the same fate". …………..

One man from Swat's capital, Mingora, told The Daily Telegraph his brother, a Taliban fighter, had been arrested by soldiers two weeks ago. He alleged that four days later his dead body was found dumped on wasteland by neighbours. Locals said the bodies of four more militants were found in similar circumstances.

An army spokesman denied any of those killed had been in its custody. But Asma Jahangir said she had hard evidence and challenged army claims that local mass graves contained the bodies of militants killed by other Taliban fighters.

"We have allegations to the contrary, from eyewitnesses, that these were militants but they were not killed by other militants. We're asking for an investigation because no-one should be above the law," she said. ………..

Telegraph, UK