Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

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Rishi
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Rishi »

Why Pakistan is obsessed with Kashmir
http://www.newkerala.com/nkfullnews-1-88295.html
By Amulya Ganguli:
If Pakistan cannot envisage 'long-lasting peace' with India unless the Kashmir problem is solved, as the country's Foreign Secretary Abdul Basit has said, the reason has less to do with its concern for the 'wishes of the (Kashmiri) people' than with the question of Pakistan's own survival as a nation.

Having already lost East Pakistan that became Bangladesh in 1971, the ruling establishment in Islamabad is scared of allowing Kashmir to slip out of its grasp as well. Hence, the persistent attempts to foment subversion in the valley and also organise large-scale incursions by both the mujahideen and the army, as in Kargil.

The jehadi attacks on the Indian parliament in 2001 and in Mumbai in 2008, apart from random acts of terrorism, are also intended to weaken India so that it will become easier to wrest Kashmir from it.

The fear in Islamabad is that if India succeeds in holding on to Kashmir, then Pakistan will slowly start unravelling. The reason is that, first, a "long-lasting peace" based on the fading of hopes of securing Kashmir will undermine the army's dominance over Pakistan. If India is no longer seen as a major military threat, the army will lose its raison d'etre.

But the second reason is more potent. Pakistan had expected to make up for the loss of its eastern wing by annexing Kashmir. It would have been a great morale booster for a country which has always been paranoid about coming second to India, whether in cricket or in diplomacy.

The inability to make any headway in Kashmir will confirm the present-day reality that Pakistan can no longer claim parity with India. The earlier hyphenation, encouraged by America, is gone. India has forged ahead as a vibrant multicultural democracy while Pakistan is seen as the nursery of Islamic terror.

Not only that, it is also perceived to be coming apart at the seams with the army having to use helicopter gunships to retain control over its north-west while Balochistan is in the grip of an insurgency with or without India's help. It is worth recalling that even the religious extremists of the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) in the north-west had pointed out during their conflict with the Pakistan Army that India has never used helicopters to control the unrest in Kashmir. (?? Any links?) The difference between a democracy and a virtual military dictatorship was evident even to the fundamentalists.

There are other causes of disquiet in the Pakistani establishment. It is that a "long-lasting" peace will enable India to exercise its "soft" power via its cultural influence, of which the most overwhelming will be Bollywood movies and Hindi film songs.

There is a revealing passage in Pakistani author Mohammed Hanif's book, "A Case of Exploding Mangoes", on General Zia-ul Haq's death, in which the hero (or anti-hero), Ali Shigri, is travelling in a car driven by Major Kiyani of Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI). The latter "reaches into his glove compartment", the passage says, "and starts rummaging for a tape. 'Asha or Lata', he asks". It may be mentioned that General Pervez Ashfaq Kayani headed ISI before he became Pakistan's army chief.

Since the two-nation theory was based on exploiting supposed Hindu-Muslim incompatibility, Pakistan's efforts throughout its history of six decades have been to assert its distinctive identity. It is for this purpose that it designated itself as an Islamic republic despite Jinnah's obvious preference for a secular state, as outlined in his Aug 11, 1947, speech.

Any resolution of the Kashmir problem on India's terms will mean that the widely admired Indian secularism will influence Pakistani society. The result will be a curbing of the excessive emphasis on religion, which was encouraged by General Zia, leading to the emergence of extremist groups.

As suspected by India, the clandestine links between the army and these elements have helped the latter to thrive since the military regards them as "strategic assets" in the event of a war with India. The removal of the Kashmir issue from the India-Pakistan equation will mean that the militant fundamentalists will be orphaned by the withdrawal of support from the army.

In addition to secular concepts, Indian democracy is also likely to act as an inspirational model for Pakistan. Its experiments with the system haven't been successful till now because of the army's frequent interventions and its overpowering presence based on the exploitation of the anti-Indian bogey. The army's return to the barracks will boost democracy.

No one can say how real is the Pakistani fear of Indian (read Hindu) cultural dominance because the two communities lived side by side for centuries before the partition of 1947 and still do in India. As is obvious from the sub-continent's past history and India's present experience, the identities of neither have been diluted-as they haven't been in the cases of other minorities in India such as the Sikhs or the Christians or even a minuscule one like the Parsis.

In all likelihood, therefore, it is the roots of the composite culture for which South Asia has long been known which will be further strengthened.

(8.8.2009-Amulya Ganguli is a political analyst. He can be reached at [email protected])
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Rishi »

Via Twitter
marvi_memon Rumours of aug 11 being declaration of indp here ripe. Pak flags no where to b seen as I drive thru quetta. Worsening beyond imagination
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by RayC »

Extracts from my HDD:

On August 11, 1947, the British acceded control of Balochistan to the ruler of Balochistan, Mir Ahmad Yar Khan - the Khan of Kalat. The Khan immediately declared the independence of Balochistan, and Mohammad Ali Jinnah signed the proclamation of Balochistan’s sovereignty under the Khan.

Within 24 hours of the declaration of Independence 1947, the Khan of Kalat formed Baluchistan's House of Commons and the House of Lords. On 16th December 1947 Khan of Kalat called a meeting of both houses of Balochistan to discuss the possibility of joining Pakistan. All the members from both Houses had unanimously rejected the idea of joining Pakistan.

However the state of Pakistan invaded Balochistan on 27 March, 1948. The illegal and forceful occupation of Balochistan by the Pakistani army had resulted in killing of many workers and members of the Independent State of Balochistan and imprisonment of the Khan of Kalat and his family members in their palace.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by RayC »

Jundullah a wedge between Iran, Pakistan
By Raja Karthikeya

Far from the headlines of the mainstream media, the border between Iran and Pakistan is heating up to epic proportions. In recent months, cross-border raids by a Balochistan-based terrorist group, Jundullah, targeting Iranian security personnel and civilians, has plunged bilateral relations to unprecedented depths.

But Jundullah isn't just the prime mover for the internal security crisis in southeastern Iran. It also threatens to become the key to the survival of the Taliban on the border between Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan......................

Within days, Iran closed its border with Pakistan. Bilateral relations plunged to unprecedented depths. For Pakistan, which has border disputes and hostile relations with two of its three neighbors - India and Afghanistan - the Iranian moves could not have come at a worse time.

Jundullah a wedge between Iran, Pakistan

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Rishi »

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... AD99UI7Q80

Pakistanis admit helping in Mehsud missile strike
ISLAMABAD — Local intelligence officials acknowledged Saturday that a CIA missile strike that killed Pakistan's Taliban chief was carried out with Islamabad's help, indicating growing coordination between the two countries on battling militants despite Pakistan's official disapproval of the strikes.
Two Pakistani intelligence officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak to media, said the CIA launched the missiles after Pakistan passed along a confirmed report that the militant chief was staying at his father-in-law's home.

A video of the attack was shared with Pakistani authorities.

In it, Mehsud's vehicle is seen parked inside a sprawling compound and Mehsud was also visible, said one of the intelligence officials. The official declined to give more specifics, such as exactly where Mehsud was, but said his body was destroyed.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Rishi »

http://thenews.jang.com.pk/updates.asp?id=84553

Baitullah Mehsud is alive, claims Hakeemullah Mehsud
Updated at: 1255 PST, Saturday, August 08, 2009
PESHAWAR: The spokesman of Tahreek-e-Taliban and close relative of Baitullah Mehsud has denied the reports of killing of Baitullah Mehsud and claimed that he is alive.

Talking to an Arabic Television, Hakeemullah said Baitullah is alive and remained leading Tahreek, a videotape will be release soon as a proof of statement.

Hakeemullah said Baitullah gone into hiding as a part of strategy and he is not in contact with anyone after drone attack.

Replying to question about his presence in father-in-law house, Hakeemullah said living in in-laws house is against Peshtoon tradition :rotfl: and Baitullah was not present in his father-in-law house at the time of drone attack. He said meetings of Majlis Shura of Tahreek-e-Taliban are part of routine.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by arun »

X Post.

Canada’s National Post recognises the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s terrorist supporting ways with an editorial appropriately titled “Pakistan’s Two-Faced Game”:
Pakistan's two-faced game

National Post
Published: Saturday, August 08, 2009

If anything has been proven by the reported killing on Wednesday of Pakistani Taliban leader Baitullah Mehsud, it is that Pakistan is fully capable of liquidating Islamist terrorists operating on its soil -- when it wants to. Unfortunately, Pakistan targets only those murderers who, like Mehsud, threaten the regime in Islamabad -- not those who seek to wage jihad in neighbouring India or Afghanistan.

The Pakistanis have long been playing a two-faced game. They pretend to be partners in the War on Terror when it suits their own purposes, then pretend not to know what is going on in their own tribal provinces when they would rather not be drawn into the war against radical Islam. ...........................

National Post
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by SSridhar »

Gerard wrote:She's Back
From the above,
It was during her stewardship of the South Asian Affairs portfolio in the State Department that the Taliban under Mulla Mohammad Omar came into existence in 1994 with the joint support of the Pakistan and US Governments.
Robin Raphael is one big venomous person as far as India goes. The above by B.Raman is absolutely correct. : This is what the US Under Secretary of State and the nemesis of India, Ms. Robin Raphael, said in a conference: “The Taliban control more than two-thirds of the country, they are Afghan, they are indigenous, they have demonstrated staying power. The real source of their success has been the willingness of many Afghans, particularly Pashtuns, to tacitly trade unending fighting and chaos for a measure of peace and security, even with severe social restrictions. It is not in the interests of Afghanistan or any of us here that the Taliban be isolated.”

The US involvement with the Taliban can be divided approximately into two periods, pre-1997 and post-1997. The pre-1997 support was impelled by a desire to access the oil and gas fields of the Central Asian Republics (CAR) especially that of Turkmenistan by UNOCAL. The May, 1997 massacre of the Taliban fighters in Mazar-e-Sharif and the parallel development of Turkmenistan-Ceyhan pipeline by Turkey dimmed the prospects of UNOCAL and suddenly the US began seeing ‘despicable human rights violations of the Taliban’, in the words of its then Foreign Secretary Ms. Madeline Albright.

Now that Ms. Robin Raphael is appointed to a position of power in Pakistan, India needs to watch closely her actions. She is bad news for us.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Jaspreet »

Soon after making that infamous statement that Kashmir is a disputed area, Robin Raphael visited India. I remember Chandan Mitra (HT editor) almost called her a *hore and b!tch in a front page article he wrote the day before she was to land.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by tripathi »

next decade seems to be of up and downs for india like 1990s.india will do good on economic front but defence forces will get neglected.kashmir will flare up again and india will come on the verge of losing it.pakistan will emerge much stronger from afpak and taliban storm which going to be unleashed on india with full force.the difference with 1990s will that in 90s only kashmir was targeted with jihadis this time whole of india will be targeted by jihadis thereby spreading our forces thin.and one point indian people themselves barter away kashmir in order to by peace.reason----INDIANS HAS LOST THE WILL TO FIGHT....
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Jaspreet »

Tripathi,
I disagree totally. That's worst-case scenario. Do you have any data to support your statements?
1. Defence just got a whopping budget increase and has been getting so for the past several budgets. So why do you think defence is being neglected?
2. Why would Pak emerge stronger, if at all? Given that their economy is going down since the 90s and their children to madrassahs what makes you say they will be stronger?
3. Why do you think Indians have lost the will to fight? Any data points, not anecdotal, to support this?
4. Other than a few stray journalists, do you have any evidence of majority Indians trying to barter away Kashmir?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Gerard »

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by SSridhar »

Pakistan's back-channel diplomat, Niaz Naik, found dead
Former Pakistan Foreign Secretary Niaz A Naik, who was involved in back channel diplomacy with India during the 1999 Kargil conflict, was found dead in his residence here today, a police spokesman said.

Mr. Naik apparently died three to four days ago and there were no marks of injury on his body, the spokesman said.

Mr. Naik had been living alone in his house in a neighbourhood in the heart of Islamabad for a long time, he added.

The body was found after people living in the area complained of foul smell emanating from Mr. Naik's home. The body was sent to a state-run hospital for autopsy.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Gerard »

Rishi wrote: It is worth recalling that even the religious extremists of the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) in the north-west had pointed out during their conflict with the Pakistan Army that India has never used helicopters to control the unrest in Kashmir. (?? Any links?) The difference between a democracy and a virtual military dictatorship was evident even to the fundamentalists.
link
JI Lahore Amir Amirul Azeem, speaking on the occasion, flayed the military offensive launched in Swat and the other ears of Malakand Division, saying that the history never witnessed such military move against the own citizens even India never used heavy weapons including the tank and warplanes against Sikhs to suppress their movement for establishment of ‘Khalistan’.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Gerard »

Fiction and facts
It would have been better if Pakistani think tanks had come out with the maps showing how India would look like after its disintegration. They could have shown Bombay, East Punjab and Kashmir as parts of Pakistan.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by tripathi »

Jasprit ji,
1.Its true that defence got whooping increase in budget and every year it happens but then forces remain there itself where they were 10 yrs back in terms of equipment.why?coz our procurement is dead slow.meanwhile our competitors race ahead coz they r good at procurement.

2.No pak is not going weaker rather new life is being infused into it by its masters.rather gonna see a stable/stronger pak in next 5 yrs.

3.Talk to general ppl on street about pak or audience in program all u see dejected people ready for peace at any barter.i ve seen armymen talking about futility of holding kashmir.which goes on to show that eve our forces r getting demoralized.

4.majority of indians dont even know kashmir they dont even care about it .its the ellites and policy makers who decides fate of the country and media/journalist who help form majority opinion in that favour.

my mistake about point 3. some part got deleted while i typed previously.
Last edited by tripathi on 08 Aug 2009 20:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Nihat »

tripathi wrote:Jasprit ji,
1.Its true that defence got whooping increase in budget and every year it happens but then forces remain there itself where they were 10 yrs back in terms of equipment.why?coz our procurement is dead slow.meanwhile our competitors race ahead coz they r good at procurement.

2.No pak is not going weaker rather new life is being infused into it by its masters.rather gonna see a stable/stronger pak in next 5 yrs.

3.Talk to general ppl on street about pak or audience in program all see peace for.i ve seen armymen talking about futility of holding kashmir.which goes on to show that eve our forces r getting demoralized.

4.majority of indians dont even know kashmir they dont even care about it .its the ellites and policy makers who decides fate of the country and media/journalist who help form majority opinion in that favour.
With all due respect Sir , I do concur on you first point but absolutely fail to understand the next 3.

What kind of new life is being infused into TSP , IMF loans and raging insurgency is hardly an indicator of a stable nation.

Who are these army men who talk about the futility of holding Kashmir , please back that statement up.

Every Indian knows Kashmir , just like people know where mumbai is - of course the common man cannot be extremely bothered about Kashmir , it hardly means everyone's deserted it.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Akshut »

http://pakobserver.net/200908/04/Articles01.asp
.
Some of these reservations were expressed by former foreign secretary Shamshad Ahmed Khan who said indications were very clear that America wanted to “remote-control” the region from Islamabad. A former diplomat was also reported to have said: “Clearly these are people who would be coming under cover of diplomatic assignments for covert operations that would be detrimental for Pakistan’s security interests.” If this report is authentic then there is cause for alarm because it would annoy Pakistan’s friends like China that are already wary of increased US presence in the region.
.
What does that mean for India?
.
What is there to be remote-controlled which is so significant?
Is the passage to CAR the only explanation for this? Or..
.
Three weeks ago, national English daily in its editorial had written that American diplomats in Islamabad keep roaming free on the city roads armed with guns and revolvers and in cars bearing fake numbers.
.
.
Whats up with Unkil to keep tab and eye on every nook and corner of the world? Yes its a superpower, but Islamabad's streets?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by asprinzl »

About Robin Raphael
She is just another two bit diplomat if the people who deal with her grow some cojones. It is as simple as that.

On using or not using tanks and helicopters against terrorists:
Winning brownie points against terrorists has been such a trumpeting points for Western Democracies and India. In the west they never face any real threat of losing their territories but in Israel and in India this threat exists. War is a reality and being nice guys does not make you bullet proof but just prolongs the conflict for ever and the price is the slow bleeding plus on the Indian side some half a million homeless Pandeet Hindus in refugee camps.

I wholely support the Chinese method. No hanky panky, swift, bloody, shocking and breaks the morale of the opposition for a long time to come paving the way for gradual Han-ization.

If India had been swift, brutal and bloody right from the beginning, the morale of the Kashmiri Muslims would have been broken and their resistance to Bharat-ization would have been gone. But being nice guy to them empowers them to be defiant and what you see is major uprising even in the case of leasing a little plot of land to Hindu pilgrims. Admit it.....with policy like this Kashmir will NEVER be Re-Indianized but for ever be Indian-held defiant population. Being nice guys to the enemy is delusional and you might feel good about it looking at yourself in the mirror but other than that it is plain stupid. Those who make such policy may sit comfortable with armed security and peons running around servicing them but for the common man in the street and the soldiers in the trench....it is the ultimate price tag unknown and unfelt by the policy maker.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by arun »

X Posted.

The all consuming obsession of the Pakistan Military with India and the concomitant need to keep control of nuclear weapons as the “ultimate defense against India” on full display.

The same is recognised by John Bolton who consequently fears that an Islamist takeover in Pakistan will dilute this US comfort in control of nuclear weapons being vested in the Pakistan military as the Islamists would undoubtedly point some of Pakistan’s nuclear weapons away from India.

Recognising that compared to the Pakistan Military, the Pakistan Islamist’s are for India a less malignant force simply because unlike the Pakistani Military the malevolence of the Pakistani Islamist is less focussed on India, time I think for the Indian Foreign Policy establishment to take a similar unsentimental stand setting aside any regard for "notional allies" :wink: and act to protect our national interests by promoting any group in Pakistan that will undercut the military:
Child Soldiers: Kidnapped by the Taliban, Trained for Terror

Friday, August 07, 2009 Fox News .....................

VAN SUSTEREN: All right, so now you have the Pakistani army, which is the best that's going on there for us, and you've got them fighting the Taliban in the northern part of the country, and if they are ineffective to keep even children from being taken from their homes, even protecting the children, why in the world should we think that they're so effective in protecting their nuclear arsenal? It sounds like an infiltrated or an overwhelmed military, at best.

BOLTON: Increasingly at risk of being fragmented. Obviously, the nuclear weapons are Pakistan's ultimate defense against India. So the military's done its best to keep them under control.

But that was even before the Islamists began working their way through the military hierarchy. That's one reason we're at risk. We haven't paid enough attention to this problem over the years, so we're down in a pretty difficult situation.

VAN SUSTEREN: So what do we do?

BOLTON: Well, I think you've got to try and use the pro-western, pro- American parts of the Pakistani military to work with us. I think we made a mistake in effectively forcing President Musharraf out of office, and I think a lot of people in Pakistan understand that now.

This is a divided country. It's not entirely against us. But we are in a desperate and really end-game struggle here.........................

Fox News
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Prem »

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Form ... 871869.cms
Former Pakistan foreign secretary Niaz Naik murdered
ISLAMABAD: Former Pakistan foreign secretary Niaz A Naik, who was involved in back-channel diplomacy with India during the 1999 Kargil conflict, has
been tortured and murdered by unidentified persons at his residence here, police said on Saturday.

Naik's body was found in his home in the heart of the Pakistani capital.

The revelation that he has been murdered marked a turnaround from a police spokesman's earlier statement that there were no marks of injury on the former diplomat's body. Naik, 70, was unmarried and had been living alone in his house in a neighbourhood in central Islamabad for a long time.

A post-mortem examination of Naik's body revealed he was tortured before being killed, said police officials and doctors who performed the autopsy.

Naik was hit with a sharp and heavy object and there were signs of torture on his neck. Four ribs and the jaw were fractured and the lungs were damaged, the autopsy report said.

Naik, who also served as high commissioner to India and was involved in back-channel diplomacy during the Kargil conflict of 1999, apparently died three to four days ago, police said. Police officials said they were trying to ascertain
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by a_kumar »

tripathi wrote:Jasprit ji,
1.Its true that defence got whooping increase in budget and every year it happens but then forces remain there itself where they were 10 yrs back in terms of equipment.why?coz our procurement is dead slow.meanwhile our competitors race ahead coz they r good at procurement.

2.No pak is not going weaker rather new life is being infused into it by its masters.rather gonna see a stable/stronger pak in next 5 yrs.

3.Talk to general ppl on street about pak or audience in program all see peace for.i ve seen armymen talking about futility of holding kashmir.which goes on to show that eve our forces r getting demoralized.

4.majority of indians dont even know kashmir they dont even care about it .its the ellites and policy makers who decides fate of the country and media/journalist who help form majority opinion in that favour.
Strongly agree on 1, 2 & 4.

On 3, am not sure. Am afraid you may be right.
Nihat wrote: What kind of new life is being infused into TSP , IMF loans and raging insurgency is hardly an indicator of a stable nation.
IMF and Friends of Pakistan will soon waive off the payments and suddenly Pakistan will start seeing good Forex reserves. Its history repeating all over again.
Nihat wrote: Every Indian knows Kashmir , just like people know where mumbai is - of course the common man cannot be extremely bothered about Kashmir , it hardly means everyone's deserted it.
Yeah.. they know Kashmir as in like (Kashmir to Kanyakumari). Until recently we didn't even know about the PoK map. All the talk of giving away Siachin is a good proof of "how little they know about Kashmir".

They don't even understand how much Paki-Chini relations would have been effected had there not been a clean nice KKH. We are strategic morons on that front.

Sadly, I share the gloom in Tripathi's post. Hopefully am wrong.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Jaspreet »

Gloom is not the way forward.
How did we learn so much about Pakistan and about Kashmir? By perusing forums such as these.
So educate people. Write blogs. Refer them to this forum. Do as much as you can. If you educate only one more person, that's one more on our side.

Jo gloom gayaa, samjho haar gayaa.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by pgbhat »

Mastering the language of strength --- Vir Sanghvi
I am getting increasingly tired of people — well-meaning Indians and not so well-meaning Americans mainly — telling us that we have to look at the problem of terrorism from Pakistan’s point of view. We should accept, we are told, that we have not given Pakistan any proof about Hafiz Saeed or the 26/11 plotters that will stand up in a court of law.

Besides, we are advised, we cannot expect the Pakistanis to hand over terrorists to a country like India against whom there is so much public sentiment. Moreover, India is interfering in Pakistan’s internal affairs and its area of influence. It is arming Balochis and establishing a presence in Afghanistan. In the circumstances, we should accept that Pakistan has gone as far as it can in meeting our demands.

The most annoying thing about these arguments is that they seem superficially reasonable. Surely, as a liberal democracy, India must respect the rule of law and understand the need to provide proof. Can’t we accept that Pakistani public opinion is against us and so the Pakistani government must tread carefully? How can Pakistan stand by and watch while we establish a presence in Balochistan? And so on.
Like all sensible people, I have no desire to see India go to war with Pakistan. Nor do I believe that diplomacy between neighbours should be conducted on the basis of threats. India and Pakistan have to learn to co-exist.

But when you consider the differing responses that Pakistan has given to America and India, you cannot escape one conclusion: the language that Islamabad understands best is the language of strength.

That’s a lesson that all Indian governments should never forget.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Prem »

Is Baitullah really dead?
http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=192191

News of his death first came through American media sources on Aug 7. Pakistani Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi also confirmed his death by quoting intelligence sources but Interior Minister Rehman Malik is careful. A senator from South Wazirastan told him in the morning of Aug 8 that Baitullah is not dead and that was why Rehman Malik never confirmed the death of the most wanted man to media. Many Pakistanis think that if Baitullah is dead just few days before the 62nd independence day of Pakistan then it is a great gift from a US drone but common Pakistanis are also raising some questions.
Few weeks ago a rebel militant from South Wazirastan Qari Zainuddin Mehsud gave interviews to Pakistani media and claimed that Baitullah was working for Americans and Indians. This rebel militant was backed by the security establishment and his claim created lot of misunderstandings. Within few days of these interviews, Baitullah killed Qari Zinuddin on June 23, 2009, in Dera Ismail Khan and gave a message that he can target his enemies anytime and anywhere in Pakistan.

Just few weeks after the death of Qari Zainuddin, Pakistani intelligence sources are now claiming that Baitullah have been killed in a US drone attack. Question is that will the Pakistani government pay Rs50 Million to CIA for eliminating the most wanted man in the country? U
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Chinmayanand »

Intolerable insult

THE incident of an American security official pointing a gun at a local police official as he was passing by the US Embassy in Islamabad with his family is highly offensive to the dignity{if any} of the country. The SHO has also alleged that the security man, who holds a diplomatic status, used abusive and humiliating language against Pakistan{When you deal with La-Whore,you have to stoop down to that level,what to do :( }. Washington must realise that the fault lies with the arrogance of power that certain senior US officials at times show to register their country's global dominant status, little appreciating that it might filter down to the junior level and could be seriously mishandled. Understandably, the disgraceful behaviour has provoked countrywide adverse reaction and the Foreign Office has felt compelled to take notice. Its spokesman has been quoted as saying that the diplomat could be deported after declaring him as persona non grata. There should be no second thoughts and the concerned person should be expelled from the country without further delay.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by NRao »

Pakistan Official: Taliban Rivals Involved in Shooting
Pakistan's interior minister says the government has received reports of a shooting between two rivals for leadership of Pakistan's Taliban, and that one of them may have been killed.

Rehman Malik told reporters Saturday that fighting reportedly broke out between Taliban commanders Wali-ur-Rehman and Hakimullah Mehsud, during a meeting to decide a successor to Taliban leader Baitullah Mehsud.
ABC News reported that both of them died.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by NRao »

Is Bin Laden Next on Drones' Hit List?
Mehsud and his wife are believed to have been killed early Wednesday morning by a U.S. drone attack when they were on the roof of Mehsud's father-in-law's house in his birthplace of Makeen.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by ramana »

Rishi wrote:Via Twitter
marvi_memon Rumours of aug 11 being declaration of indp here ripe. Pak flags no where to b seen as I drive thru quetta. Worsening beyond imagination

Ahmed Quraishi also says the same here:

Baloch to declare Independence
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by tripathi »

Prem wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Form ... 871869.cms
Former Pakistan foreign secretary Niaz Naik murdered
wait n see they gonna blame it on RAW
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by SSridhar »

NRao wrote:Pakistan Official: Taliban Rivals Involved in Shooting

ABC News reported that both of them died.
Nirupama Subramanian of The Hindu says both are killed
Two Taliban commanders positioning themselves as successors to Beithullah Mehsud were killed, apparently in fighting that broke out during a shura or council meeting of the militants in South Waziristan, according to unconfirmed reports emerging from the region late on Saturday.
We know that the PA has been trying desperately to drive wedges among the TTP factions and have spread disinformation before. We have to wait & see how far these information are true.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by RayC »

An interesting read, though dated:
The Washington Quarterly, Spring 07:

When $10 Billion is Not Enough: Rethinking US Strategy Toward Pakistan
Quote:
...For all the talk of the United States’ global dominance and despite considerable U.S. support to the Pakistani military, Washington finds itself with relatively little leverage to influence events in Pakistan. During the past five years, the United States has given Pakistan more than $10 billion in assistance, channeled primarily through the Pakistani military. What Pakistan gives in return may be only enough to keep the money coming.

After the September 11 attacks, many U.S. policymakers believed that Pakistan was one place where they were justified in saying, “You are either with us or against us.” Nevertheless, despite the billions of dollars spent, the United States has not made the necessary commitment to solidify the relationship for the long term. This is not merely a function of the scale of assistance, but of its type. U.S. engagement with Pakistan is highly militarized and centralized, with very little reaching the vast majority of Pakistanis. More problematic still, U.S. assistance does not so much reflect a coherent strategy as it does a legacy of the initial, transactional quid pro quo established in the immediate aftermath of the September 11 attacks and a familiar menu of what the United States was already organized to provide. U.S. soft power in Pakistan, the ability to influence by attraction and persuasion, is far lower than it could be, considering the historic, economic, and personal bonds that unite the two countries..

Rethinking US Strategy toward Pakistan
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by arun »

Pakistani imports of weaponry per the UN Register of Conventional Arms over the past 5 years. These imports are on a calendar year basis and are compiled on the self declaration by the concerned UN member:
CY 2008:

67 M109A5 Howitzer
03 Mirage-VF (Ex Libya)
10 F-16A/B (Refurbished?)
06 JF-17

CY 2007:

18 Al- Khalid MBT
02 JF-17
12 Refurbished Cobra Helicopters (AH1F?)

CY 2006:

10 MBT (Model unspecified. From PRC)
03 Mirage-V (Ex Libya)

CY 2005:

10 MBT (Model unspecified. From PRC)
02 F-16A Block 15 (Refurbished?)

CY 2004:

10 MBT (Model unspecified. From PRC)
63 D-30 122 mm Howitzer (PRC)

CY 2003:

80 D-30 122 mm Howitzer (PRC)
05 A-5 Fantan

UN Register of Conventional Arms
I thought the Al-Khalid MBT was supposedly “indigenous” so why have the Pakistani’s declared to the UN (CY 2007) that they are imported from the PRC :?: .
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by svinayak »

Musharraf in Hindsight
By Zainab Jeewanjee
Wednesday, August 5 2:40 am EST
http://pakistan.foreignpolicyblogs.com/ ... hindsight/

No explanation can at this moment adequately address the horrors carried out in Gojra Pakistan. But these horrors are newsworthy and have potential to serve as a lesson in uprooting such inhumanity. Rather than focusing squarely and vaguely on vast historical causation that might allow factions to commit these horrors, a closer look at the multifaceted ways in which to uproot that causation by drawing on recent history is valuable.

Because in some ways recent events are repetitive of the country’s history of cyclical, civilian to military governance. Just over half of 62 years of Pakistani statehood have been spent under martial law (which is bizarre, though not entirely as alarming as it sounds). Civilian regimes have been notoriously corrupt and did little to bring about democracy when scrutinized beyond the cover of a “civlian” title. Given this backdrop and our long engagement with Islamabad, Washington’s lenses should be discerning when dealing with Pakistan. But events like Gojra, the Mumbai atrocities and relentless, daily plight Pakistan’s military and civilians face in uprooting terror from in and around their borders, consistently begs the question: what is still going wrong?
As mentioned, if we draw on recent events for explanation, there is one consistency: Since the War on Terror began, Pakistan was most stable under Musharraf with respect to security and international standing and since his departure, the economy is deteriorating. Correlating these successes to Msuharraf’s tenure might come across as reductive, but it is tangible. Thus, to better formulate our strategy in Pakistan given the luxury of hindsight, it could be useful to revisit Musharraf’s policies by way of dispelling vociferous censures that follow him until now:

As a military leader Musharraf’s governance deepened the cycle of martial law ultimately not allowing a democracy to take shape in Pakistan:

* Not necessarily: South Asian policy expert Anatol Lieven explains “All civilian governments have been guilty of corruption, election rigging and the imprisonment or murder of political opponents, in some cases to a worse degree than the military administrations that followed.” And the pool from which to select leaders post Musharraf offered little hope for anything different. Alternative options were extensions of the very leadership Lieven explains. They offered dynastic governance (Benazir Bhutto as daughter of Zulfiqar Bhutto) or perpetual subversion of democracy through maintaining a feudal system (Asif Zardari). In fact, the feudal system wherein masses of uneducated Pakistani’s are bound to a servile existence is what causes this kind of aristocracy to reign. This rampant subversion of Pakistani citizenry is a far cry from democracy.

* Musharraf indirectly addressed this by privatizing news media. This profoundly affected everyday Pakistani’s by spurring, fresh news, views, ideas, occupations and attention independent of state censorship and interest. Something I took for granted until spending time in Karachi before Musharraf’s tenure (especially under Sharif’s government). If anti- Americanism was a problem in Pakistan, Sharif’s rigid and religious driven censorship of television, and print media certainly did not help while Musharraf’s policies, did.

* On a side note: although media privatization is eclipsed by other news out of Pakistan in the past few years, I cite this as Musharraf’s crowning achievement. I maintain that its effects will have lasting impact on ultimately allowing a viable democracy to take shape in Pakistan by way of a meaningful dissemination of independent and increasingly globalized information.

Musharraf should not be credited with the economic growth because it was driven by foreign support funds from the War on Terror which would have been collected from cooperation by any Pakistani government in power at the time:

* This is Simplistic: While it’s true his government presided over Pakistan’s most successful economy, averaging 7 percent annual growth over the past five years which comes in part from foreign aid, Musharraff’s policies in tandem with Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz drove those funds into Pakistan in an unprecedented manner. In comparison, there was just 3% average growth in the 1990s under civilian rule most of which is known to have travelled outside Pakistan into the pockets of individually corrupt politicians. And while state patronage might have abounded under Musharraf, the military being “instilled with a sense of loyalty to the state, which has been absent from civilian governments” therefore better maintains security of Pakistan and circulates capital for domestic interests rather than more individual minded politicians who pilfer funds out. Thus, the military winds up “more restrained in its corruption and graft and indeed, Pakistani generals probably do more to circulate patronage to the lower ranks than their bureaucratic counterparts”.

* Also while investments were “paternalistic” during martial law, economic growth actually did, “trickle down” as was seen in major cities. A more modernized standard of living through increased consumption and access to products reflected this economic expansion amongst all levels in society. For the first time in Karachi, I saw hired help, including chauffeurs who are part of the working class carrying cell phones and purchasing American DVD’s. Women were increasingly seen occupying positions in the financial sector and politics. So military paternalism, is sadly more productive than the civilian corruption that takes place because it means funds are at least circulated domestically, rather than driven out of the country entirely.

Now I’m not equating these specific instances of consumption and progress necessarily to full-fledged support of Musharraf, nor am I making a case for permanent military rule in Pakistan or condoning military corruption. However, such tangible developments amidst unfounded criticism and the reality of Pakistan’s history should inform Washington. A senior fellow on South Asia at the Council on Foreign Relations perhaps prescribed this best in 2007:

Musharraf offers Washington continuity in the face of uncertain political transition. He is a familiar face, a leader with whom the Bush administration has established a sustained working relationship. Under even the smoothest possible transition scenarios, Musharraf’s departure would interrupt bilateral cooperation on military, counterterrorism, and intelligence matters for days or weeks—with uncertain consequences for U.S. security


In hindsight, this assessment is quite apt. Musharraf was an ally who provided results and continued to successfully expand our efforts in the War on Terror. Not just for U.S. interests, but for Pakistani interests in security and development also. Had Musharraf not fired the Supreme Court judges and declared the state of emergency that wound up dismissing further justices, he might have maintained his leadership that is needed in Pakistan at this time. And I hope the Obama Administration takes this recent history into close consideration when formulating our ongoing cooperation with leaders in Islamabad.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by arun »

Israeli newspaper Haaretz on how the US during the Reagen Presidency covered up Pakistan’s nuclear weaponisation programme:
Thu., August 06, 2009

Khan, king of the nukes

By Zvi Bar'el

Richard Barlow, an analyst at the the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency, was sure his career was about to take off. It was the 1980s, and he had information suggesting Pakistan was buying components to build a nuclear weapon, and even had refitted F-16 fighter planes purchased from the United States to carry nuclear bombs. He ran to his superiors and expected to be lauded. Instead he was fired, and word spread that he was a spy. All the suspicions against him were refuted in an investigation, but that did not help him: Barlow had revealed something the American administration preferred to keep secret.

For then-president Ronald Reagan, cooperation with Pakistan was essential at a time when the Soviet Union was threatening to control Afghanistan, even if the price was helping a Muslim state acquire nuclear weapons. Barlow's revelation - that the administration was violating laws prohibiting the sale of military equipment that might lead to nuclear proliferation - was considered treason. He was pushed out and the administration carried on its business with the senior Pakistani official responsible for acquiring nuclear technology, Abdul Qadeer Khan. ……………
…………… Meanwhile, U.S. President Barack Obama finds himself trapped in the same dilemma as all his predecessors since Reagan: How do you handle a nuclear state that has not signed the nuclear nonproliferation treaty, which was on the verge of a take-over by the Taliban several weeks ago, whose military is said to support this group, and which supports the parties that pose the biggest threats to U.S. interests in the Middle East and the Far East? On the other hand, this is a regime the United States needs to eradicate the Taliban in Afghanistan and in northern Pakistan. There are quite a few aspects of the Pakistani-Afghani dilemma that the United States has itself alone to blame. From the pinnacle of his mountain of cash, national pride and international connections, Abdul Qadeer Khan doesn't really care.
From here:

Haaretz
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by SSridhar »

Sartaj Aziz on 'excessive' leaders
Book Review by Khaled Ahmed of "Between Dreams and Realities: Some Milestones in Pakistan’s History;
By Sartaj Aziz; "
It is the nuclear test of 1998 where perhaps Sartaj Aziz briefly abandons his theory of matching economic requirements with national strategy. He approved of the test because Pakistan’s “deepening economic imbalance will bring about a decisive shift in the balance of power between India and Pakistan” and the idea was to recreate balance through deterrence.
In May 1999, General Musharraf briefed the prime minister on Kargil. This may not have been the first briefing but for Sartaj it was. The PM was accompanied by him, Abdul Majid Malik (minister for Kashmir affairs), Raja Zafarul Haq (minister for religious affairs), Shamshad Ahmad (foreign secretary), and Tariq Fatemi (additional secretary in the PM secretariat). Sartaj Aziz was among the dissenters, and what he said must be flagged as the intellectual thesis of the book, that the Pakistan Army is ‘tactical’ rather than ‘strategic’ in its thinking.

He said: “I see that the tactics are brilliant but the strategy does not seem viable.
And the objectives of the operation are even less clear.” (p.258) Other Foreign Office diplomats were perhaps in the loop, unlike Sartaj. In the RAW telephone intercept of General Musharraf — and there have been many since — General Aziz in Islamabad is heard telling the chief in Beijing in Appendix III of the book that while Mian Sahib was okay, ‘Shamshad as usual was supporting’.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by SSridhar »

Pakistan admits to helping drone attack on Mehsud
So, what happened to all protestations that drone attacks by the US were violations of sovereignty ?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by Vivek_A »

SSridhar wrote:Pakistan admits to helping drone attack on Mehsud
So, what happened to all protestations that drone attacks by the US were violations of sovereignty ?
I doubt TSP was involved in any way, shape or form. This is just like the "TSP and US are operating drones jointly" thing that turned out to be TSP getting damage reports after drone strikes.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - July 07, 2009

Post by SSridhar »

Strategic Concerns
Carved out as a state for the Muslims of the British subcontinent :roll: , Pakistan partly lies on the Indian subcontinent, partly in the northern Himalayan lands, adjacent to Chinese Turkistan and partly in Southwest Asia.{Truly dissembling Pakistanis}
The GNP is increasing more rapidly than the population, but the GNP per capita remains, among the lowest in Asia, albeit the highest in South Asia.
The largest trading partners of Pakistan are the United States and Japan. Other important trading partners of Pakistan are Germany, Britain, Saudi Arabia and Hong Kong.
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