India-China News and Discussion

[Dhiman]

Time will tell what will happen but India has to get its economy going at 7-9% for a decade or so. That was the conclusion reached in the latest NSC meeting as well.

Oh well , at least this time the powers-that-be have been able to see a major emerging threat to Bharatvarsh coming. Let's see how many hundred years this one lasts If the current attitude of Chinese government and its juvenile tantrum throwing strategic thinkers continues, then it will probably take well over my lifetime to deal with this crap at the minimum. At least this time, we already have our eyes on the horizon

Since the great Chinese strategic thinkers are already copying old true and tested and miserably failed British and Porki strategies, perhaps its time to open a new thread to compare the three approaches. "God save the Chicom Porkies" should be an appropriate title

[Sanku]

Since Gerorge F uncle let the cat out of the bag, there is string of public statements by high level functionaries of GoI with a rapidly increasing frequency that China as India are not perhaps bhai-bhai after all.

Adm Mehta's statement is very intresting, is he trying to send a couched message on behalf of GoI to hint at hard conflict? His he trying to wake up GoI? His he just escalating a currently known threat and one which has the fancy of GoI right now to get more money for IN

Questions, questions

[amit]

X-posting what I wrote on the Naval thread as it may be more appropriate here:

What CNS says is right and its very much known fact , we cannot match china , ship to ship , submarine to submarine and missile to missile , the gap between us and them is too wide.

Actually instead of being witty and clever about what the CNS said, it may be instructive (and productive) to ponder at why the CNS said this now and not, say six months ago or six months later.

First of all we’ve got to understand that when the CNS delivers a speech on national security challenges at the National Maritime Foundation with all manner of fat cats in attendance he doesn’t give an off the cuff, “say it like you feel it” kind of speech.

I would bet that his speech was vetted by government babus and inputs came from MoD folks.

If we take that presumption then its easy to assume that through the CNS the govt was/is trying to send out a message.

The question is what is the message? Everybody knows that China spends zillions on arms and that in sheer numbers, if not sophistication they are years ahead of us. Then why state the obvious?

Could it be for any one of the following reasons?

1) The Indian government is preparing the ground work and justification for a more closer alignment with the US in military terms?

2) Is it because with the Rice-eater getting ready to swim the government is paving the ground work for reversing the up till now stance of keeping missiles and war heads separate? Afterall the Rice-eater will have to carry active missiles if it’s to do its job?

3) Is it to prepare the groundwork for justifying a significant increase in Defence spending vis a vis our GDP – say from 2.2 per cent to over 3 per cent?

There could be other reasons also and I think it would be interesting to try and conjecture why exactly the message was delivered now and dwell less on the truth or otherwise of the contents of the message?

JMT

[Philip]

The Chinese capacity for mischief is unparalleled.Let's examine why this particular Chinese sh*tworm was allowed to publish his diatribe against India.
The Chinese will never allow such an article to be printed,with such potential explosive content,if it has not received sanction from the highest level.If sanction has been given,we must ask why?

At the moment,the great Chinese bubble of global leader and Asian superpower,second only to the US,was yet again punctured by its troubles in Xinjiang.The scale and intensity of the riots and anti-Han/Chinese govt. protests by the Uighars was a political earthquake of magnitude equal to 8.0+ on the Richter scale,for the Middle Kingdom mandarins.The Tibetans erupted last year just before the Olympics sverely embarassing the Chinese and the Chinese hoped that its totalitarian showpiece Olympics orchestarted like Hitler's infamous Berlin Olympics would mesmerise the world.With Taiwan still independent,Tibet and now Xinjiang exploding ,China has lost much face globally.Added to this humiliation,the fact that India has weathered the global economic strom as well as China,remains independent and emocratic,having just held the world's largest free and fair global election,outperforms China in the eyes of the world.Everyone knows that China's economic miracle has been achieved only by its musclepower,which is now being tested like never before.The recent outbreak of plague in another provicne is another public relations disaster,as the world has not forgotten China's "bird flu" epidemic,especially as "swine flu" has become a global pandemic.

China's string of pearls strategy has also had some significant hiccups.Little Sri Lanka amazingly won its war against the world's most diabolic terrorist outfit the LTTE,and promptly proceeded to cancel large arms shipments from China and Pak,sabing money and also to please India.It knows that India is just a few miles away,while China,thousands of miles away can never come to Lanka's assistance in a crisis the way India can,demonstrated by the IPKF.The Indo-Lankan joint strategy,both political and strategic has got a huge boost after the war's end,with both nations working together likemindedly.The Lankan President,has also reassured India publicly,that it will never allow its territory to be used by China against India!

In Nepal too,the Maoists have got a punch on the nose,as their attempts to gain control over the army by sacking its chief was repulsed in style.The age-old relationship between India and Nepal still stand and India is forcefully resisting-thus far with some success,the insidious sinister attempts by China to annex Nepal by proxy.In Bangladesh too,a far more pro-Indian govt. was also elected,and Indo-B"desh cooperation is gradually growing,though not as quickly as desired.In Afghanistan,the Indian role in helping restore that nation's infrastructure ahs been far more productive than the entire efforts of the US and NATO,who are clueless as to understanding the needs and mindset of the Afghan people,viewing them simply through the tinted glasses of anti-Islamist myopia.India's relations with Burma are also on the mend and have carved out for itself an acknowledgment that we have genuine interests too if Burma's foreign policy takes on an anti-Indian hue.
In science and tech.,India has also made rapid strides.India's Moon mission was received very well internationally.It's IT industry is the world's best still.Even as the lethargic Indian MOD modernises the Indian armed forces,the recent launch of India's first nuclear sub,that too openly stated to be aimed at deterring China,has received huge global praise and attention.

Therefore,China is deeply concerned that India is making much ground,plodding along like the proverbial Indian elephant,but gaining ground on China,which is showing cracks at its political seams.The growing Indo-US relationship worries China,even though Obama said that "China and the US would lead the world".Democratic,stable and militarily powerful India is China's greatest threat to its hegemony in Asia,especially as it straddles the trade routes of the IOR especially oil shipments from the Gulf.China's hysterical plea to India's neighbours to try and destroy it is also no coincidence that it comes after the IDR published an analysis that China might be tempted to attack India in the near future to bring its population.It is therefore trying very hard to coax India's S.Asian neighbours to gang up on India,use terrorism as a means of attack and to widen the cracks that divide us,rather than pour the balm of peace upon our differences as part of the family of SAARC nations.

[NRao]

FT Editorial:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a15dbae8-85e3 ... ck_check=1

Even before last month’s $2.5bn reconstruction loan package from the International Monetary Fund, Mr Rajapaksa’s ability to find new sources of finance, especially from China, had made him relatively immune to international pressure.

[kenop]

China admits its cos' involvement in shipping fake drugs
In fact, it is not as clean as it seems from the headline. Indian government took it up with the Nigerians first and then the Chinese

Though, China had assured of investigations in the matter, Indian authorities were not given any time frame.

There is no admission from the Chinese side. Nigerians seem to agreeing with Indians.
Waiting for denials from the Nigerians and Chinese (denying it was ever discussed).

[Vivek K]

I must thank Liu and other Chinese posters that have helped draw the attention of Iindians away from Pakistan. Page after page in hundreds of threads have been devoted to understanding the Pakistan psyche and intentions. What a waste and how misled we are.

It is funny to see the pot calling the kettle black. Let me explain - look at the brutal suppression of Tibet, Eastern Turkistan, and the pro-democracy movement in China (Tiananmen Square). Recently, the Chinese let loose their thugs on the peacefully protesting Ujghurs and murdered thousands. Yet another example of the peacefulness of China and its society?

Also, the Chinese are basically now wanting to take over the mission that has been so poorly handled by their stooge - Pakistan. Pakistan's often stated mission was to bleed India by a thousand cuts (like Mr. Liu says about exploding India). Yet look at the two countries today - India a rising economic and military power that has sent a probe to the moon; and the other Pakistan - a rising pile of smelly cr$p that threatens to spread to its erstwhile sponsors through Al-Qaeda and the Ujghur separatist movement. So my friend learn from history and like Pakistan has found to its own discomfort, two can indeed play at the game.

Take your pick Mr. Liu - friendship or a fight, you will not find us wanting in either. However, I must once again thank you for jerking the Indian posters/populace out of their slumber and driving home to their uncomprehending brains so nicely that Pakistan is just a sideshow. The main threat and Enemy No. 1 for India like George Fernandes (former Defence Minister) put it, is Communist China.

[Liu]

The Chinese capacity for mischief is unparalleled.Let's examine why this particular Chinese sh*tworm was allowed to publish his diatribe against India.
The Chinese will never allow such an article to be printed,with such potential explosive content,if it has not received sanction from the highest level.If sanction has been given,we must ask why?

At the moment,the great Chinese bubble of global leader and Asian superpower,second only to the US,was yet again punctured by its troubles in Xinjiang.The scale and intensity of the riots and anti-Han/Chinese govt. protests by the Uighars was a political earthquake of magnitude equal to 8.0+ on the Richter scale,for the Middle Kingdom mandarins.The Tibetans erupted last year just before the Olympics sverely embarassing the Chinese and the Chinese hoped that its totalitarian showpiece Olympics orchestarted like Hitler's infamous Berlin Olympics would mesmerise the world.With Taiwan still independent,Tibet and now Xinjiang exploding ,China has lost much face globally.Added to this humiliation,the fact that India has weathered the global economic strom as well as China,remains independent and emocratic,having just held the world's largest free and fair global election,outperforms China in the eyes of the world.Everyone knows that China's economic miracle has been achieved only by its musclepower,which is now being tested like never before.The recent outbreak of plague in another provicne is another public relations disaster,as the world has not forgotten China's "bird flu" epidemic,especially as "swine flu" has become a global pandemic.

China's string of pearls strategy has also had some significant hiccups.Little Sri Lanka amazingly won its war against the world's most diabolic terrorist outfit the LTTE,and promptly proceeded to cancel large arms shipments from China and Pak,sabing money and also to please India.It knows that India is just a few miles away,while China,thousands of miles away can never come to Lanka's assistance in a crisis the way India can,demonstrated by the IPKF.The Indo-Lankan joint strategy,both political and strategic has got a huge boost after the war's end,with both nations working together likemindedly.The Lankan President,has also reassured India publicly,that it will never allow its territory to be used by China against India!

In Nepal too,the Maoists have got a punch on the nose,as their attempts to gain control over the army by sacking its chief was repulsed in style.The age-old relationship between India and Nepal still stand and India is forcefully resisting-thus far with some success,the insidious sinister attempts by China to annex Nepal by proxy.In Bangladesh too,a far more pro-Indian govt. was also elected,and Indo-B"desh cooperation is gradually growing,though not as quickly as desired.In Afghanistan,the Indian role in helping restore that nation's infrastructure ahs been far more productive than the entire efforts of the US and NATO,who are clueless as to understanding the needs and mindset of the Afghan people,viewing them simply through the tinted glasses of anti-Islamist myopia.India's relations with Burma are also on the mend and have carved out for itself an acknowledgment that we have genuine interests too if Burma's foreign policy takes on an anti-Indian hue.
In science and tech.,India has also made rapid strides.India's Moon mission was received very well internationally.It's IT industry is the world's best still.Even as the lethargic Indian MOD modernises the Indian armed forces,the recent launch of India's first nuclear sub,that too openly stated to be aimed at deterring China,has received huge global praise and attention.

Therefore,China is deeply concerned that India is making much ground,plodding along like the proverbial Indian elephant,but gaining ground on China,which is showing cracks at its political seams.The growing Indo-US relationship worries China,even though Obama said that "China and the US would lead the world".Democratic,stable and militarily powerful India is China's greatest threat to its hegemony in Asia,especially as it straddles the trade routes of the IOR especially oil shipments from the Gulf.China's hysterical plea to India's neighbours to try and destroy it is also no coincidence that it comes after the IDR published an analysis that China might be tempted to attack India in the near future to bring its population.It is therefore trying very hard to coax India's S.Asian neighbours to gang up on India,use terrorism as a means of attack and to widen the cracks that divide us,rather than pour the balm of peace upon our differences as part of the family of SAARC nations.

" china to down" has been eagerly expected by west medias for decades and has never disappeared.

now ,it seems that you attend the chorus!

[Liu]

I must thank Liu and other Chinese posters that have helped draw the attention of Iindians away from Pakistan. Page after page in hundreds of threads have been devoted to understanding the Pakistan psyche and intentions. What a waste and how misled we are.

It is funny to see the pot calling the kettle black. Let me explain - look at the brutal suppression of Tibet, Eastern Turkistan, and the pro-democracy movement in China (Tiananmen Square). Recently, the Chinese let loose their thugs on the peacefully protesting Ujghurs and murdered thousands. Yet another example of the peacefulness of China and its society?

Also, the Chinese are basically now wanting to take over the mission that has been so poorly handled by their stooge - Pakistan. Pakistan's often stated mission was to bleed India by a thousand cuts (like Mr. Liu says about exploding India). Yet look at the two countries today - India a rising economic and military power that has sent a probe to the moon; and the other Pakistan - a rising pile of smelly cr$p that threatens to spread to its erstwhile sponsors through Al-Qaeda and the Ujghur separatist movement. So my friend learn from history and like Pakistan has found to its own discomfort, two can indeed play at the game.

Take your pick Mr. Liu - friendship or a fight, you will not find us wanting in either. However, I must once again thank you for jerking the Indian posters/populace out of their slumber and driving home to their uncomprehending brains so nicely that Pakistan is just a sideshow. The main threat and Enemy No. 1 for India like George Fernandes (former Defence Minister) put it, is Communist China.

stop hypocrisy!

the nature of states is that :

" When I am weak, I avoid being bullied by others"
"when I am powerful, I bully others"

[Vivek K]

stop hypocrisy!

We will when you do the same!

the nature of states is that :

" When I am weak, I avoid being bullied by others"
"when I am powerful, I bully others"

So you agree that you are a bully??

[RajeshA]

stop hypocrisy!

the nature of states is that :

" When I am weak, I avoid being bullied by others"
"when I am powerful, I bully others"

Liu ji,

the "nature of states" is to maximize their security, well-being and international acknowledgment of their principles.

How you do it, differs from state to state. China may like to take the bullying route. That is your choice. India has made a different choice.

[archan]

You gotta be careful who you bully, though.

[Hari Seldon]

Breaking news: **The gleat halmonious rise of PRC shall eclipse the entire world. **

OK, with that out of the way, maybe we can discuss other things.

why bother....

[Rahul M]

stop hypocrisy!

the nature of states is that :

" When I am weak, I avoid being bullied by others"
"when I am powerful, I bully others"

Liu, a one-track mind can't conceive nor contemplate new ideas.

there's a saying, "A dog can think of god only as a bigger dog."

try to realise that there may be other schools of thought than the 'bully or get bullied' philosophy you espouse.

[Suraj]

stop hypocrisy!

the nature of states is that :

" When I am weak, I avoid being bullied by others"
"when I am powerful, I bully others"

Thanks for being clear about China's motives.

We can now agree that 中國和平崛起 ("China's peaceful rise") as the official pronouncements from everyone including Hu Jintao goes, is nothing more than a load of bullsh*t.

As I mentioned previously, China's actions are merely that of a bully. It is regularly reflected in the posts of Chinese posters as well. One does not respond to a bully with sense, or worse, deference. In the real world, one bides their time, using deceit or any manner of building one's own strength quietly.

Online though, the standard response is to never go on the defensive; any accusations in our direction are merely cause to respond in kind; 'justifying' ourselves in any way, or even as much as acknowledging their statements, is a mistake.

[brihaspati]

Let Liu talk and boast. The more such things happen, the better is the psychological scenario for us. It is a good sign that the common Chinese begins to believe in the propaganda of their one-party state regime about invincibility. The shock of disillusion paralyzes such societies - as happened in Russia.

[Liu]

Let Liu talk and boast. The more such things happen, the better is the psychological scenario for us. It is a good sign that the common Chinese begins to believe in the propaganda of their one-party state regime about invincibility. The shock of disillusion paralyzes such societies - as happened in Russia.

the history is always written by the victors.

Had USA been defeated in the cold war, USSR would be as lovely as Angels and USA would be as evil as Nazi now.

[Suraj]

That's a convenient claim, but not quite valid. China lost to Japan and was ruled by them in the 1930s. Yet China keeps demanding that Japan revise their history of Nanjing etc. Why ? Japan won that war. So what if they committed human rights crimes. Let them write the history, because the real history of Nanjing is what Japan says it is.

Sure, this is just a rhetorical statement from me to rebut you, but you see, it's very easy to be a tough guy on the internet

[Prem]

No country can become superpower soley relying on export. How can a slave be master ? Chinese are mistaken just like Japanese and soon they will learn good lesson. WEST is not going away soon and Indians will always be there to remind and teach China that hypocracy wont pay. Chinese Sun will start setting right after 2020 as they will start growing old before they enjoy youth.

[RayC]

Liu,

This may interest you.

New Delhi: China has admitted that its pharmaceutical companies were involved in shipping fake drugs labelled 'Made In India' to Nigeria.

"The Chinese authorities have accepted this position (that its firms were involved in the case)," an official said.

"The Indian government took up the matter with the Nigerian authorities and on further probe, it was found that the drugs had actually originated in China and not in India," he added.

In June, Nigeria's drug regulatory authority National Agency for Food And Drug Administration And Control (NAFDAC) had reported about the detention of a large consignment of fake anti-malarial generic pharmaceuticals labelled 'Made in India' which were actually produced in China.

Following the incident, India took up the issue with China fearing that this could damage the reputation of the 12-billion-dollar Indian pharmaceutical industry in the global market............................

China Repeats Fraudulent Existence

[KLNMurthy]

the history is always written by the victors.

Had USA been defeated in the cold war, USSR would be as lovely as Angels and USA would be as evil as Nazi now.

But the USA was not defeated, so your point is historically irrelevant. It was not random chance that USA won and USSR lost. USSR collapsed because it was, ultimately, built on lies. There is a lesson there for those who care to learn.

[Liu]

That's a convenient claim, but not quite valid. China lost to Japan and was ruled by them in the 1930s. Yet China keeps demanding that Japan revise their history of Nanjing etc. Why ? Japan won that war. So what if they committed human rights crimes. Let them write the history.

Sure, this is just a rhetorical statement from me to rebut you, but you see, it's very easy to be a tough guy on the internet

guy, Japan surrendered and China were the main winner ,during WW II.
Japan indeed occupied about 1/3 of CHina at first , but then sino-Japan war fell into stalemate soon . the stalemate kept on until Japan surrendered in 1945.
china won the war,although CHina usually lost battles.

[RayC]

" china to down" has been eagerly expected by west medias for decades and has never disappeared.

now ,it seems that you attend the chorus!

Apparently you live in a Shangrila existence since you know not what is happening.

You believe what your govt tells you and you regurgitate the same.

In order to suppress unfavorable news coverage, the Chinese government has adopted a two-pronged approach. First, Beijing has attacked the source of dissent, threatening any grieving parents who persisted in their protests. Second, the government has embarked on an extensive campaign of media censorship. For instance, foreign reporters covering the parents' demonstrations in Sichuan were detained and deported from the towns where the protests took place. The Los Angeles Times notes that "web discussion groups have seen postings deleted" magically, as if by some unseen Web umpire.[2] And The Washington Post notes that at least one web journalist, Huang Qi, along with two associates, was arrested for posting revealing commentary on the aftermath of the disaster.
Hide Reality and Keep People Fooled

[Sanku]

china won the war,although CHina usually lost battles.

Mods, a simple request please can you gentlemen move the posts after Liu's post to humor thread? They belong there far more than here.

[RayC]

That's a convenient claim, but not quite valid. China lost to Japan and was ruled by them in the 1930s. Yet China keeps demanding that Japan revise their history of Nanjing etc. Why ? Japan won that war. So what if they committed human rights crimes. Let them write the history.

Sure, this is just a rhetorical statement from me to rebut you, but you see, it's very easy to be a tough guy on the internet

guy, Japan surrendered and China were the main winner ,during WW II.
Japan indeed occupied about 1/3 of CHina at first , but then sino-Japan war fell into stalemate soon . the stalemate kept on until Japan surrendered in 1945.
china won the war,although CHina usually lost battles.

From the Rape of Nanking , as it is popularly called, China has been on the wrong end of the stick.

[RayC]

不要发明历史。

Dont invent history!

[brihaspati]

Liu,
what exactly were the battles won by the Chinese against Japan? The "Nationalist" of the Kuo-min-dang gov kept on retreating down south along the coast and into the interior. The Chinese were more busy fighting their civil war. It was only when the fifth encirclement campaign by Chiang was on the point of liquidating the CCP base in the south, that 8th Route Army broke out (they left a lot of people and resources behind) and only then at the Tsunyi conference, was the Maoist line accepted. Only then the CCP decided to cover its flight for survival as a "northward-journey" to fight the "Japanese" - especially because "the betrayers had retreated before the Japanese" and "given up territory". But in doing this the 8th moved further west, crossing the notroiuous Tatu/Dadu and then through the high ranges coming down from the Tibetan Plateau (if China was such an unified fighting machine, they could have gone staright up to fight over a much easier route), and then the swamps, and then reaching NW China to form a new base. Only after consoldiating, they started to expand their influence. The 8th's and the remnants of the 4th, could only achieve some degree of presence further east when the son of a warlord abducted Chinag and forced him to come to an agreement with the communists. I am sure you know his name!

But even then, Manchuoko/Manchuria under Japan could only fall into CCP hands, after the Japanese army surrendered to the Russians, in spite of Mao's demands that they surrender to the Red Army. The spectacular progress of the 8th, across the North and then the river-crossing, which the Allies chose not to interrupt (in spite of their naval presence in the river), took place only after the Japanese had already surrndered. There are reasons to believe, that Russian pressure helped the American and British side to stay neutral. All this expansion of the CCP and its army was only in the period 1945-1949.

Incidentally, have you been told, that Mao suddenly found the Americans not to be imperialists for a brief period, when certain high ranking US commanders considered using him in the anti-Japanese framework. When the prospect died, Americans again became imperialists.

Has it always been a Chinese leadership trait to pretend to be something that they are not? Or that ultimately there is no ideology or principle left in the modern Chinese elite - just opportunism and drive for personal power?

[svinayak]

the history is always written by the victors.

Had USA been defeated in the cold war, USSR would be as lovely as Angels and USA would be as evil as Nazi now.

History shows that Humanity always wins and good regime always wins.
Repressive regimes such as USSR is against humanity and will always lose. USSR can never be an angel.

PRC is just like USSR. That is a warning sign.

[Jaspreet]

I wonder why are Chinese being so shrill and childish about this?
This is an old civilization tnat is supposed to be sophisticated. So why are they behaving so crudely?
On top of that they're making the Indians more cautious. If they talked softly and lulled Indians into a false sense of security their dividends would be higher like in 1962. There's no sense in attempting to intimidate your enemy thereby forcing them to prepare better for a war.

I don't understand what will they achieve with this posturing.

[xie]

guy, Japan surrendered and China were the main winner ,during WW II.
Japan indeed occupied about 1/3 of CHina at first , but then sino-Japan war fell into stalemate soon . the stalemate kept on until Japan surrendered in 1945.
china won the war,although CHina usually lost battles.

From the Rape of Nanking , as it is popularly called, China has been on the wrong end of the stick.

The war between China and Japan lasted 14 years (if you consider the loss of Manchu in 1931 as the beginning). There were countless battles between the then weak China and the mighty Nippon during that 14 years. China lost many of the battles, China also won some of them. China suffered huge loss of life (Nanjing being only one of them) and property, but the Chinese PEOPLE and government held and FIGHTED till the end. Japan was finally defeated (thanks to the help of US and USSR) and all the Japanese troops on the Chinese land surrendered to the Chinese authority. China was one of the nations in the winning camp of WWII. This is an indisputable fact.

[svinayak]

There's no sense in attempting to intimidate your enemy thereby forcing them to prepare better for a war.I don't understand what will they achieve with this posturing.

It is part of the current geopolitics. Lot of Chinese posturing was absent earlier for the last 20 years. It was because they were on larger mission in the world to accumulate the largest currency reserve in their country's history.

Now with a global economic collapse Chinese strategic community will focus on the near region and possible new war to suit PRC. It may have been instigated by other G2 so they both can come out of the current climate.

[RayC]

roverxie,

This may help:

First Sino-Japanese War (1894-1895)--The first conflict between China and Japan took place over who would control Korea, a small nation located between them. Japan defeated the technologically inferior Chinese forces, and gained control of Korea. Japan would rule Korea until the end of World War Two in 1945.

The Boxer Rebellion (1899-1901)--A Chinese secret society called the Righteous Harmony Society, and called "The Boxers" by Western observers, began an uprising to drive Western influence from China. While the rebels also at first opposed the ruling government, called the Manchu Dynasty, the government soon managed to direct most of the violence against European, American, and Japanese cultural, political, military, and diplomatic interests in China. After the rebels and the government's military began a siege of the Foreign Legations (foreign embassies) in the capital of Beijing (known as Peking at the time), an unlikely alliance of eight nations gathered military forces to invade China and save their embassies, as well as to preserve the power and influence they had long held in China. These allies included: Great Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Austria-Hungary, Russia, the United States, and Japan. This China Relief Expedition totaled nearly 45,000 men, and quickly invaded China, seizing Beijing. China was forced to pay war reparations, (in other words, they had to repay their enemies for the financial cost of the war), accept more foreign troops on Chinese soil.

Jinan Incident (May 3rd Incident) (1928-1929)--During the period of Chinese civil wars between the Nationalist government and various warlords, one of the warlords allied himself with Japan, who already occupied the Shantung Peninsula during World War One. In 1927, the advancing Nationalist army clashed with Japanese and warlord forces. A cease-fire was agreed upon in March, 1928.

Japanese Occupation of Manchuria (1931-1932)--The Japanese Army invaded the Chinese province of Manchuria in 1931, setting up a puppet government. Japan wanted Manchuria due to the great natural resources in this northern portion of China. Japan's excuse for invading was the so-called Mukden Incident (known as the "9.18 Incident" in China). Some historians date the beginning of World War Two to the beginning of the Mukden Incident and the Japanese takeover of Manchuria.

First Battle of Shanghai (January 28 to March 4, 1932)--In an attempt to break the Chinese boycott of Japanese goods and businesses begun after the Mukden Incident, the Japanese Army lands at the Chinese port city of Shanghai in January of 1932. The Chinese 19th Route Army held 70,000 Japanese troops to the area around the waterfront for nearly a month until being driven from the city by the invaders. As a result of the Japanese seizure of the city, China abandoned the boycott. Japan's effective use of aircraft carrier-based planes was the first use of this tactic in the Pacific/East Asia region. This is also known as the Shanghai War of 1932.

Japanese Invasion of Jehol Province (January to March 1933)--The Japanese advanced from their positions in occupied Manchuria (which they renamed Manchukou), to occupy Jehol, near the Mongolian border. Chinese resistance ended as the Japanese advanced closer to Peking. An armistice was signed on March 31.

Second Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945)--Japan launched an all-out invasion of China after the Marco Polo Bridge Incident on July 7, 1937. Japan used this battle as an excuse to invade China, beginning a war which would kill millions, draw in the United States, Great Britain and other nations, and end with the defeat of Japan in 1945. Some historians date the beginning of World War Two to the beginning of this war.

[Anujan]

I wonder why are Chinese being so shrill and childish about this?

Jaspreet-ji

You need to understand the psyche of constant advertisement (I didnt use the word "propaganda", I dont want to reduce intelligent debate to empty rhetoric) by the CCP to the public.

The original raisin-dieter of the communist party was communism (from all according to his deed to all according to his need). When that failed to deliver (and also some clever diplomacy by Unkil to drive in the Sino-soviet split), they switched to a semi-capitalist system. Now what is the raisin-dieter of communist party now ? Without communism, which serves as a self evident justification of the existence of the party (just like the justification for the existence of the american constitution rooted in liberty and equality is self evident), why need a party ?

That is when CCP switched to stability and nationalism from communism and social justice. The former is needed to supress internal dissent, the latter is needed to co-opt the local population into seemingly contradictory foreign policy manoevers. To reinforce the message of stability and nationalism, you need three ingredients

1. A foreboding of the dangers of lack of stability and identifying fleeing betrayers. (Dalai lama pleading for his monks to not be beaten up ? Well they are the Dalai Clique splittists.)
2. A sense of victimhood and historic injustice. Japan/USA/Imperial wester powers/Russia
3. A sense of imminent victory to set right this historic injustice. Decadent west, peaceful rise, reunification around the corner, Japanese humiliation imminent

In addition to stability and nationalism, the CCP needs to sell another crucial idea. The idea that the one party rule is the only way to achieve stability and rise. I find it surprising that nobody in China asks so why is US stable and nationalistic ? There are the usual excuses of "but decadent imperialism/but china needs chinese system". You have to admire and give this round to the CCP for convincing the population.

Now the sense of victimhood and the sense of impending victory should be finely balanced. The former as tool of demagoguery to force the people to act and rally behind the CCP, the latter to boost their morale. Too much of the former, you break the spirit of the people and too much of the latter, the population gets complacent and starts questioning the party. Thats why you find the frequent "Japanese Raped us, but we defeated them too" (victimhood/victory)

I find the "but India is a slum and is not developed" to be funny. The reason it is funny is that the switch to the stability/nationalism rhetoric from the communism/social justice rhetoric has one and only one bridge. That is roti/kapra/makan.

In this context, you should note that there is no contract between a democratic government and its citizens which specifies that the citizens will prosper. The only contract is that of freedom --- the citizens can choose the rulers and make decisions on the freedom they agree to give up to the government for common good (freedom to kill for example) and the freedom they retain to protect against tyranny and safeguard happiness (freedom of movement, assembly, speech, religion). Within this umbrella of freedom, people gather, set up businesses, work hard and prosper. On the other hand the contract between CCP and the people seems to be --- we will feed all of you, build skyscrappers, make sure the white men (and the brown) think that we are the top of the world. Some of our goons might break into your house and imprison you though.


Well, we like our system, they like theirs.

But I am astounded that the land that gave us confucious and tao, counts skyscrapers and lack of slums as points of pride and justification of the governance system. I would have expected to see a river of tears for massacres such as the great leap forward and cultural revolution. Oh well.

Interestingly as OT China is one example which makes me question the premise of "Historical and cultural attitudes" hypothesis to explain the behavior and wants of the people. These historical and cultural attitudes can be wiped clean by effective propaganda and information control, erasing the society's consciousness over atmost two generations.

I wonder why are Chinese being so shrill and childish about this?

Because of past victimhood and impending victory.

[Suraj]

The US and UK achieved far more towards defeating the Japanese than the Chinese did. Even India had a significant role to play - we were the first country to stop the Japanese, and also the staging point of all the relief traffic into China over the hump and the Stillwell Road.

The Chinese themselves (Chiang and Mao) were busy fighting each other instead of the Japanese - a case of a husband and wife slapping each other on the foyer while someone walks in and takes things out of their house. If it weren't for allied support, there would have been a dozen Nanjings.

But all this is a nonsequitur. Quoting pithy claims from Sun Tzu, or even badly translating De Gaulle, does not amount to much more than provide the recipient a source of mirth.

[sanjaykumar]

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009- ... 864522.htm

India on verge of panic over spread of A/H1N1 flu


China, China, China that is moronic.


Canada has had 60 deaths out of 30 million population and India has had 6 recorded out of 1,100 million and India is on the verge of panicking?

[samuel]

Is it possible to help China cook in its own rhetoric while preparing for the inevitable without falling into the other G2's hands?
Historically, China's turned bully just when there was a window to do so, as now.
S
PS: Ultimately, it helps us to realize that if China can bully, it will. So there must always be a constant counter to the prospect. I suppose, given the regime that runs it, this approach is entirely predictable.

[svinayak]

Interestingly as OT China is one example which makes me question the premise of "Historical and cultural attitudes" hypothesis to explain the behavior and wants of the people. These historical and cultural attitudes can be wiped clean by effective propaganda and information control, erasing the society's consciousness over atmost two generations.

It is one of the largest homogeneous population in the world and this can inhibit this process of dissent for the sake of the homogeous unit. In a similar way they can wipe out all the old memories of their civilization but there are pockets of old civilization. These are not allowed to express and they are suppressed. THey have suppressed all the old thought process and have not allowed dissent for the sake of stability.

Reading the history of China during the period of war lords and anarchy one can see why the CPC is very careful about anarchy.

[xie]

I wonder why are Chinese being so shrill and childish about this?
This is an old civilization tnat is supposed to be sophisticated. So why are they behaving so crudely?
On top of that they're making the Indians more cautious. If they talked softly and lulled Indians into a false sense of security their dividends would be higher like in 1962.

Obviously there is a huge gap between India and China's views on the 1962 war. On India's side, China was depicted as an aggressor who betrayed India's trust and attacked India. On China's side, India, especially India's then PM Nehru, was just so greedy and naive to think that they can assume the ILLEGAL McMahon line as the India-China border and even pushed pass that line under the reckless "forward policy". Therefore I am not sure which side should be blamed.

There's no sense in attempting to intimidate your enemy thereby forcing them to prepare better for a war.
I don't understand what will they achieve with this posturing.

I guess that your impression on China's intimidating and threatening posture probably came from all the Internet posts and I doubt you often see such (if any at all) talks from Chinese leaders or high diplomatic officials. Remember on the Internet, anybody can say anything without thinking.

[Lalmohan]

nihao roverxie
thanks for the perspective. what in your opinion is the official, or shall we say 'senior' opinion in China about relations with India
rgds
L

p.s. i think admins may ask you to change your username to one more human sounding

[xie]

LOL, thank you for the effort but I don't think I need another Chinese history lecture, I've read , heard, and experienced enough.

If you think what I wrote is wrong, please point it out directly, I am just too slow to guess. Please forgive me for my English, but I think there is a difference between battle and war. I'll say this again, China lost many battles, but in the end, China, together with other alliance nations, defeated Japan in 1945. This is a fact and please prove otherwise.

roverxie,

This may help:

First Sino-Japanese War (1894-1895)--The first conflict between China and Japan took place over who would control Korea, a small nation located between them. Japan defeated the technologically inferior Chinese forces, and gained control of Korea. Japan would rule Korea until the end of World War Two in 1945.

The Boxer Rebellion (1899-1901)--A Chinese secret society called the Righteous Harmony Society, and called "The Boxers" by Western observers, began an uprising to drive Western influence from China. While the rebels also at first opposed the ruling government, called the Manchu Dynasty, the government soon managed to direct most of the violence against European, American, and Japanese cultural, political, military, and diplomatic interests in China. After the rebels and the government's military began a siege of the Foreign Legations (foreign embassies) in the capital of Beijing (known as Peking at the time), an unlikely alliance of eight nations gathered military forces to invade China and save their embassies, as well as to preserve the power and influence they had long held in China. These allies included: Great Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Austria-Hungary, Russia, the United States, and Japan. This China Relief Expedition totaled nearly 45,000 men, and quickly invaded China, seizing Beijing. China was forced to pay war reparations, (in other words, they had to repay their enemies for the financial cost of the war), accept more foreign troops on Chinese soil.

Jinan Incident (May 3rd Incident) (1928-1929)--During the period of Chinese civil wars between the Nationalist government and various warlords, one of the warlords allied himself with Japan, who already occupied the Shantung Peninsula during World War One. In 1927, the advancing Nationalist army clashed with Japanese and warlord forces. A cease-fire was agreed upon in March, 1928.

Japanese Occupation of Manchuria (1931-1932)--The Japanese Army invaded the Chinese province of Manchuria in 1931, setting up a puppet government. Japan wanted Manchuria due to the great natural resources in this northern portion of China. Japan's excuse for invading was the so-called Mukden Incident (known as the "9.18 Incident" in China). Some historians date the beginning of World War Two to the beginning of the Mukden Incident and the Japanese takeover of Manchuria.

First Battle of Shanghai (January 28 to March 4, 1932)--In an attempt to break the Chinese boycott of Japanese goods and businesses begun after the Mukden Incident, the Japanese Army lands at the Chinese port city of Shanghai in January of 1932. The Chinese 19th Route Army held 70,000 Japanese troops to the area around the waterfront for nearly a month until being driven from the city by the invaders. As a result of the Japanese seizure of the city, China abandoned the boycott. Japan's effective use of aircraft carrier-based planes was the first use of this tactic in the Pacific/East Asia region. This is also known as the Shanghai War of 1932.

Japanese Invasion of Jehol Province (January to March 1933)--The Japanese advanced from their positions in occupied Manchuria (which they renamed Manchukou), to occupy Jehol, near the Mongolian border. Chinese resistance ended as the Japanese advanced closer to Peking. An armistice was signed on March 31.

Second Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945)--Japan launched an all-out invasion of China after the Marco Polo Bridge Incident on July 7, 1937. Japan used this battle as an excuse to invade China, beginning a war which would kill millions, draw in the United States, Great Britain and other nations, and end with the defeat of Japan in 1945. Some historians date the beginning of World War Two to the beginning of this war.