India-China News and Discussion

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
xie
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 37
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 22:55

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby xie » 12 Aug 2009 08:22

Bade wrote:
xie wrote:Ok, I suppose you are at least college-educated. Then why do so many posters (including you) so hastily label anybody who is pro China as brainwashed by the PRC propaganda?

China has adopted the "Open-door" policy for over 30 years. Tens of millions Chinese people go abroad every year and there are plenty of Chinese people who are highly educated and who have the ability to make their own independent judgement regardless of the government propaganda.

I seriously start to think that the India government has done at least as good a propaganda to make so many posters here to think this way.


I have met and worked with some really educated Chinese who have left China in the last 2 to 3 decades and they have nothing good to say about the PRC government themselves. But, there have been quite a few who despite their education and degrees seem brainwashed and have argued along the same lines as you have here. :)

Ok, so in your logic, if they have nothing good to say about the PRC government then they are not brain-washed, if they say something like my posts then they are brain-washed. I can't help laughing. BTW, to be honest, I also have many bad things to say about the PRC government, would you also call me not brain-washed? Look the other forums on the site, there are also many India posters who badmouthed the GoI, would you call them brain-washed too?

Please if you ever post, point out where I was wrong if any, labeling anybody as being brain-washed is just so LAZY and CHEAP!

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16913
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 12 Aug 2009 08:25

I find it surprising and amusing that someone can talk of "winners, keepers" in this day and age !
it's like talking to a caveman ! xie, good luck to your country with that mentality, you'll need it.

p.s. does anyone else notice that PRC has tried its best to emulate the worst policies of the very colonialist states it pretends to hate, so much so that ideas of decency doesn't even enter the equation and the glaring hypocrisy of their action is invisible to the avg chinese ??!!

Bade
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7212
Joined: 23 May 2002 11:31
Location: badenberg in US administered part of America

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Bade » 12 Aug 2009 08:27

xie wrote: :eek: Please, don't tell me that Bade has a Ph.D in politics or is a professor of politics. I would be so embarrassed!

What is this fascination with degrees ? :rotfl: I was told by a Beijinger that Mao hated academicians and this was the sole reason why he turned out to be who he became. He was denied a job and insulted by an academic. I have known academics who were sent out of cities to live in hard labour camps. So what use is a degree or a PhD for someone who believes in PRC theology.

xie
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 37
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 22:55

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby xie » 12 Aug 2009 08:28

munna wrote:
xie wrote: :eek: Please, don't tell me that Bade has a Ph.D in politics or is a professor of politics. I would be so embarrassed!

Most of the posters here are from elite institutions of the world and hold multiple degrees across a vast spectrum of academic fields. Before jumping to hasty conclusions figure out the depth of knowledge available here before choosing to run it down.


Well, thank you for letting me know this. God, I am so grateful to know the elites of India via these posts.

putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4438
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby putnanja » 12 Aug 2009 08:42

Occupying a region against the will of the people just based on the fact that centuries ago it was part of their kingdom is weird argument. The chinese are colonists, occupying tibet. They are a colonizing power. And their threatening of Taiwan whose people don't want to be part of China is another instance of their imperial designs. Thousands of people who could left Hong Kong before it reverted to chinese rules. Large areas of Canada, Australia etc are full of immigrants from Hong kong who left it because they didn't want to be a puppet under the chinese govt.

munna
BRFite
Posts: 1392
Joined: 18 Nov 2007 05:03
Location: Pee Arr Eff's resident Constitution Compliance Strategist (Phd, with upper hand)

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby munna » 12 Aug 2009 08:45

xie wrote:Well, thank you for letting me know this. God, I am so grateful to know the elites of India via these posts.

Mao lies defeated!!

khan
BRFite
Posts: 568
Joined: 12 Feb 2003 12:31
Location: Tx

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby khan » 12 Aug 2009 08:56

Things have heated up considerably between China and India. I do not think that it is a coincidence that this is happening when China's favourite cat's paw - Pakistan has been neutered by the American presence in Afghanistan. I think that they are deeply concerned about India's ability to challenge them.

The riots in the west of their country must also make them very nervous.

India must beware and not be overconfident.

I think a fruitful line of discussion would involve strategy's to deter and counter Chinese aggression.

samuel
BRFite
Posts: 818
Joined: 03 Apr 2007 08:52

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby samuel » 12 Aug 2009 08:57

well said khan

vasu_ray
BRFite
Posts: 550
Joined: 30 Nov 2008 01:06

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby vasu_ray » 12 Aug 2009 09:08

we could resume overt nuclear testing at a place of choice when the first PRC attack starts

Bade
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7212
Joined: 23 May 2002 11:31
Location: badenberg in US administered part of America

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Bade » 12 Aug 2009 09:12

khan wrote:I think a fruitful line of discussion would involve strategy's to deter and counter Chinese aggression.


Despite the incredible advances that PRC has made in recent decades, the wars it fought and did not win does give ample pointers to this. India needs to be strong and raise the bar unlike '62 and show willingness to keep going at it as long as it takes to deter any aggression. Vietnam has shown the way, so no need to panic. PRC has a lot to lose from any aggression. These are just empty threats on their part. Border incursions are not new in any case despite what is said in the media in all likelihood.

csharma
BRFite
Posts: 639
Joined: 12 Jul 1999 11:31

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby csharma » 12 Aug 2009 09:18

khan wrote:Things have heated up considerably between China and India. I do not think that it is a coincidence that this is happening when China's favourite cat's paw - Pakistan has been neutered by the American presence in Afghanistan. I think that they are deeply concerned about India's ability to challenge them.

The riots in the west of their country must also make them very nervous.

India must beware and not be overconfident.

I think a fruitful line of discussion would involve strategy's to deter and counter Chinese aggression.


This is exactly what Bharat Verma was saying and today B Raman has also said that China is feeling insecure about Tibet and Sinkiang.

In any case, GoI is doing the right thing by boosting defences along the border. Some elements in China might push for a short war to grab land.

http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot. ... ahead.html

INDIA-CHINA: LOOKING AHEAD

As a result of the difficulties faced by the Chinese in Tibet and Xinjiang, the Chinese are feeling increasingly insecure about their hold on these areas. As a result, the People's Liberation Army (PLA) is increasingly in the seat of decision and policy-making in these two areas as also with respect to the border dispute. Even in the unlikely event of the Chinese political leadership wanting to dilute its claims to Indian territory in the over-all interest of the economic ties between the two countries and the stability of their economies, it is doubtful whether
the Chinese military leadership will accept any compromise which falls short of Chinese demands.

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby RayC » 12 Aug 2009 09:19

Image

A brief account of Tibet, its origin, how it grew into a great military power and carved for itself a huge empire in Central Asia, then how it renounced the use of arms to practise the teachings of the Buddha and the tragic conseguences that it suffers today as a result of the brutal onslaught of the Communist Chinese forces is given in the following passages.

Five hundred years before Buddha Sakyamuni came into this world i.e., circa 1063 B.C., a semi-legendary figure known as Lord Shenrab Miwo reformed the primitive animism of the Shen race and founded the Tibetan Bon religion. According to Bonpo sources there were eighteen Shangshung Kings who ruled Tibet before King Nyatri Tsenpo. Tiwor Sergyi Jhagruchen was the first Shangshung King.

Shangshung, before its decline, was the name of an empire which comprised the whole of Tibet. The empire known as Shangshung Go-Phug-Bar-sum consisted of Kham and Amdo forming the Go or Goor, U and Tsang forming the Bar or Middle, and Guge Stod-Ngari Korsum forming the Phug or Interior.

As the Shangshung empire declined, a kingdom known as Bod, the present name of Tibet, came into existence at Yarlung and Chongyas valleys at the time of King Nyatri Tsenpo, who started the heroic age of the Chogyals (Religious Kings). Bod grew until the whole of Tibet was reunited under King Songtsen Gampo, when tha last Shangshung King, Ligmigya, was killed.

The official Tibetan Royal Year of the modern Tibetan calendar is dated from the enthronement of King Nyatri Tsenpo in 127 B.C. This lineage of Tibetan monarchy continued for well over a thousand years till King Tri Wudum Tsen, more commonly known as Lang Darma, was assassinated in 842 A.D.

Most illustrious of the above kings were Songtsen Gampo, Trisong Detsen and Ralpachen. They are called the Three Great Kings.

The Great King Songtsen Gampo with his Nepalese and Chinese Queen



During the reign of King Songtsen Gampo (629-49) Tibet became a great military power and her armies marched across Central Asia. He promoted Buddhism in Tibet and sent one of his ministers and other young Tibetans to India for study. He first took a Tibetan princess from the Shangshung King as his wife and then obtained a Nepalese consort. After invading the Chinese Empire he also obtained a Chinese princess as one of his wives. The two latter wives have been given prominence in the religious history of Tibet because of their services to Buddhism.

During the reign of King Trisong Detsen (755-97) the Tibetan Empire was at its peak and its armies invaded China and several Central Asian countries. In 763 the Tibetans seized the then Chinese capital at Ch'ang-an (present day Xian). As the Chinese Emperor had fled, the Tibetans appointed a new Emperor. This memorable victory has been preserved for posterity in the Zhol Doring (stone pillar) in Lhasa and reads, in part:

"King Trisong Detsen, being a profound man, the breadth of his counsel was extensive, and whatever he did for the kingdom was completely successful. He conguered and held under his sway many districts and fortresses of China. The Chinese Emperor, Hehu Ki Wang and his ministers were terrified. They offered a perpetual yearly tribute of 50,000 rolls of silk and China was obliged to pay this tribute

It was during his time that Samye, the first monastery in Tibet, was founded by Guru Padmasambhava, who also established the supremacy of Buddhism and coverted the indigenous deities into guardians of the Dharma. King Trisong Detsen also expelled the Chinese monk (Hoshang) and banished the Chinese Chan school of Buddhism from Tibet forever and adopted the Indian system. He also declared Buddhism as the state religion of Tibet.

During the reign of King Ralpachen (815-36) the Tibetan armies won many victories and in 821-2 a peace treaty was concluded with China. The inscription of the text of the treaty exists in three places: One outside the Chinese Emperor's palace gate in Ch'ang-an, another before the main gate of Jokhang temple in Lhasa and the third on the Tibetan-China border at Mount Guru Meru. Eminent Tibetan scholars, Kawa Paltsek and Chogru Lui Gyaltsen, worked with Indian scholars, invited them to Tibet and prepared the first Sanskrit-Tibetan lexicon called the Mahavyutpatti.

In 838 King Ralpachen's brother, Tri Wudum Tsen, ascended the throne. He tried to reinstate the Bon religion and persecuted the Buddhists. After his assassination by a Buddhist monk the kingdom was divided between his two sons. With warring princes, lords and generals contending for power the mighty Tibetan Empire disintegrated into many small princedoms and a dark period fell over Tibet during 842-1247.

In 1073 Konchog Gyalpo founded the Sakya monastery. His son and successor, Sakya Kunga Nyingpo, formulated the tantric traditions of the great scholars Marpa and Drogme and founded the Sakya sect. The Sakya lamas grew in power and from 1254 to 1350 Tibet was ruled by a succession of 20 Sakya lamas. The Mongols, who invaded many countries of Europe and Asia, also invaded Tibet and reached Phenpo, north of Lhasa. However, Prince Godan, the ruling Khan, was converted to Buddhism by Sakpa Kunga Gyaltsen, popularly known as Sakya Pandita, and the invading force was withdrawn. The next Khan, Kublai, was also converted to Buddhism by Sakya Pandita's nephew and successor, Sakya Phagpa. In return, Kublai Khan gave recognition of full sovereignty over "the three provinces of Tibet : U-Tsang, Dhotoe and Dhome" to Sakya Phagpa.

The influence of the Sakya priest-rulers gradually declined after the death of Kublai Khan in 1295. In 1358 the province of U (Central Tibet) fell into the hands of the Governor of Nedong, Changchub Gyaltsen, a monk of the Phamo Drugpa branch of Kagyud school, and for the next 86 years, eleven Lamas of the Phamo Drugpa lineage ruled Tibet.

But, after the death of Drakpa Gyaltsen, the fifth Phamo Drugpa ruler, in 1434, power passed into the hands of the Rinpung family who were related to Drakpa Gyaltsen by marriage. From 1436 to 1566 the heads of the Rinpung family held power.

Meanwhile, Tsongkhapa Losang Dragpa, one of the greatest scholars of Tibet, was born in 1357. He founded Gaden, the first Gelugpa monastery, in 1409 and began the Gelug lineage.

The Great Ganden Monastery



During the first decade of the 16th century, Tseten Dorje, a servant of the Rinpung family, with the help of some local tribes and Mongols, managed to gain control of Shigatse and the surrounding regions of Tsang province. From 1566 to 1642 Tseten Dorje and his two successors ruled Tibet with the title of Depa Tsangpa.

Sonam Gyatso, born in 1543, emerged as a scholar of great spiritual and temporal wisdom. He became the spiritual teacher of the Phamo Drugpa ruler, Drakpa Jungne. He was the Abbot of Drepung monastery and the most eminent lama of that time. He provided extensive relief to the Kyichu flood victims in 1562, founded Lithang Monastery in 1580 and Kumbum Monastery in 1582. He also successfully mediated between the various warring factions in Tibet. He converted Altan Khan to Buddhism and the latter conferred on him the title Dalai Lama meaning "Ocean of Wisdom" in 1578. As Sonam Gyatso was third in his line, he became the Third Dalai Lama, the title being posthumously conferred on his two previous incarnations.

A close spiritual relationship developed between Tibet and Mongolia. The Gelugpa sect grew stronger and gradually eclipsed the waning Sakya authority.

In 1642, the Fifth Dalai Lama, Ngawang Lozang Gyatso, assumed both spiritual and temporal authority over Tibet. He established the present system of the Tibetan Government, known as the Ganden Phodrang, "Victorious Everywhere". After becoming the ruler of all Tibet, he set forth to China to demand Chinese recognition of his sovereignty. The Ming Emperor received the Dalai Lama as an independent sovereign and as an equal. It is recorded that he went out of his capital to meet the Dalai Lama and that he had an inclined pathway built over the city wall so that the Dalai Lama could enter Peking without going through a gate.

The Emperor not only accepted the Dalai Lama as an independent sovereign but also as a Divinity on Earth. In return the Dalai Lama used his influence to bring the warlike Mongols into acknowledging the Emperor's sway in China. Henceforth, there started a Priest-Patron relationship which brought a new element into the relations of Tibet, China and Mongolia. Another important event was the statement of the Fifth Dalai Lama that the line of the first Panchen Lama, Choskyi Gyaltsen, who was one of his tutors, would continue.

The glorious reign of the Great Fifth was followed by a period of intrigue and instability. To start with, the powerful prime minister, Desi Sangye Gyatso, had kept the death of the Fifth Dalai Lama secret for fifteen years in order to complete the construction of the Potala Palace and also to ward off possible interference from the Manchus, who had become increasingly powerful in China. When the Sixth Dalai Lama, Tsangyang Gyatso, was finally enthroned in 1697 he turned out to be an embarrassment to the Desi and his associates, refusing to take interest in the affairs of state and leading a frivolous life. Circumstances arising from the behavior of the young Dalai Lama and also the personal conflict between the Desi and Lhazang Khan, the grandson of Gusri Khan and the chief of the Qosot Mongols in Central Tibet, led to the resignation of the Desi and the complete take-over of political power by Lhazang Khan, who later allied himself with the Manchus and sent the young Dalai Lama into exile.

Lhasang Khan was himself defeated and killed by Dzungar Mongols who had come to Tibet at the invitation of the monks of the three big Gelugpa monasteries in Lhasa. The Dzungars, who were staunch followers of the Gelugpa tradition, were not content with the death of Lhazang Khan. They proceeded to persecute the adherents of the Nyingamapa sect. This brought about a feeling of disenchantment against their presence among sections of the Tibetan people.

When Kalsang Gyatso, the reincarnation of the Sixth Dalai Lama, was discovered in Lithang, in eastern Tibet, there was a struggle among various tribes of the Mongols and the Manchus to gain control over him so that they could exercise their influence in Tibet. The Manchus were successful in this endeavor and so it was that in 1720 the Manchus sent in troops to escort the young Dalai Lama and also avenge the death of their ally, Lhazang Khan. At the same time, Tibetan troops under Khangchennas and Pholhanas took advantage of the situation to attack the Dzungars, who fled with as much loot as they could take with them.

When the Manchu troops entered Lhasa, the Dzungars hact already left. But they had other designs and when their troops finally left in 1723 they left behind a Resident or Amban ostensibly to serve the Dalai Lama but in fact to look after their own interests. This was the beginning of Manchu interference iri Tibetan affairs. The Manchus also put up their own nominee as the Tibetan Regent against Tibetan wishes. A few years later the Manchu nominee was killed and then the Manchu Emperor, Yung Cheng, sent a military force which was the first time the Manchus invaded Tibet. The Manchu force in 1727 tried to bring changes in the administration of Tibetan Government. The Manchu Emperor also tried to buy the allegiance of certain Tibetan princes, chieftains and lamas by giving many of them seals of office. But the Tibetans regarded the seals as a compliment and did not acknowledge them as a mark of vassalage. However, the Manchu Residents (Ambans) began to meddle in Tibetan state matters whenever the opportunity arose.

The Tibetans were repelled by the extent of Manchu intrigues when the Manchu Resident murdered the Tibetan Regent. The Tibetans retaliated by massadring the Manchus in Lhasa. Again the Manchus invaded Tibet in 1749 and they tried in vain to increase the power of the Manchu Resident.

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby RayC » 12 Aug 2009 09:21

In 1786 the Gurkhas invaded Tibet. The cause for this invasion went back a few years before the Gurkhas had gained full control of Nepal. Nepal had started adding copper to the silver coins which they were supplying to Tibet. In 1751 the Seventh Dalai Lama had written to the three Newari Kings, who ruled over the principalities of Kathmandu, Patan and Bhatgaon, to protest against this practice. When Prithvi Narayan, chief of the Gurkhas, overthrew the Newari rulers he was similarly apprised of the situation.

Another sore point in the relations between the Gurkhas and the Tibetans had been the intervention of Tibet in the Gurkha invasion of Sikkim. Tibet offered help to Sikkim and a treaty was concluded between Nepal and Sikkim in the presence of two

Tibetan representatives. The Gurkhas resented this interference and were looking for an excuse to attack Tibet. Such an opportunity arose in the controversy over the third Panchen Lama's personal property which was being claimed by the Panchen's two brothers, Drugpa Tulku and Shamar Tulku. The latter hoped to use the backing of the Gurkhas for his claim. The Gurkhas used the claim of Shamar Tulku and invaded Tibet.

The Eighth Dalai Lama, then 26 years old, requested the Manchu Emperor, Ch'ien Lung, for temporary military assistance. The Manchu army which entered Tibet in 1792 became more harmful to the Tibetans and they again tried to increase the power of the Manchu Resident. Further, Ch'ien Lung sent a golden urn from Peking and declared that future reincarnations of the Dalai Lama and other important lamas should be determined by putting the names of the candidates in it and extracting one at random in the presence of the Manchu Resident. This imperialist imposition was not adhered to by the Tibetans and the Thirteenth Dalai Lama, whose own choice had not even been referred to the Manchus, publicly abolished this form.

During this period Tibet was invaded several times and the Manchu Resident at Lhasa engaged in nefarious intrigues and meddled in Tibetan state affairs. But Tibet never lost her sovereignty. The Tibetan people recognized the Central Tibetan Government, headed by the Dalai Lama, as the only legal Government of Tibet.

The sovereignty of Tibet was further shown in her dealings with Nepal in 1856 when a treaty was signed between the two countries without reference to China. In the internal affairs of Tibet, the sovereignty of the Central Government of Tibet at Lhasa was most clearly illustrated in the internal war which broke out during the middle of the nineteenth century between the chieftain of Nyarong on the one side and the King of Derge and the Horpa princes on the other. The Tibetan Government sent an army, crushed the Nyarong Chief, whose invasion of his neighbour was the cause of the trouble, and set up a Tibetan Governor in his place, charging him with the general supervision of the affairs of Derge and the Horpa principalities.

In 1876, the Thirteenth Dalai Lama, Thupten Gyatso, at the age of 19, took charge of the duties of state from Regent Choekyi Gyaltsen Kundeling. He was an outstanding personality and helped Tibet to reassert her rightful sovereignty in international affairs.

At this period the British had close and profitable ties with China. The Chinese had persuaded the British that they exercise 'suzerainty' over Tibet. Therefore on September 13, 1876, the Sino-British Chefoo Convention, which granted Britain the 'right' of sending a mission of exploration into Tibet, was signed. The mission was abandoned when the Tibetans refused to allow them on the grounds that they did not recognise China's authority. Two more similar agreements, the Peking Convention of July 24, 1886 and the Calcutta Convention of March 17, 1890, were also repudiated by the Tibetans.

The Tibetan Government refused to have anything to do with the British who were dealing over their heads with the Chinese. This coincided with new contacts between Russia and Tibet around 1900-1.

There followed an interchange of letters and presents between the Dalai Lama and the Russian Czar. This strengthened British fears about Russian involvement in Tibetan affairs. As the Russian power in Asia was growing, the British Government felt that their interest was at stake. Tibet was invaded by a British expeditionary force under Colonel Younghusband, which entered Lhasa on August 3, 1904.

A treaty was signed between Tibet and Great Britain on September 7, 1904. During the British invasion Tibet conducted her affairs as an independent country. Peking did not so much as protest against the British invasion of Tibet.

When the British invaded Tibet, the 13th Dalai Lama went to Mongolia. The Manchus, who were then ruling China, made one last attempt to interfere in Tibet through the military campaigns of the infamous Chao Erhfeng. Mhen the Dalai Lama was in Kumbum monastery in the province of Amdo, he received two messages - one from Lhasa, urging him to return with all speed as they feared for his safety and could not oppose the intruding troops of Chao Erhfeng, and the other from Peking, requesting him to visit the Chinese capital. The Dalai Lama chose to go to Peking with the hope of prevailing upon the Chinese Emperor to stop the military agression against Tibet and to withdraw his troops.

When the Dalai Lama finally returned to Lhasa in 1909, he found that, contrary to all the promises he had received in Peking, Chao Erhfeng's troops were at his heels. During the annual Monlam festival of 1910, some 2,000 Manchu and Chinese soldiers under the command of General Chung Ying entered Lhasa and indulged in carnage, rape, murder, plunder, and wanton destruction. Once again the Dalai Lama was forced to leave Lhasa. He appointed a Regent to rule in his absence and left for the southern town of Dromo with the intention to go to British India if necessary. Events in Lhasa and the pursuing Chinese troops forced him to leave his country once again.

In India the Dalai Lama and his ministers appealed to the British Government to help Tibet. Meanwhile the Manchu occupation force tried to subvert the Tibetan Government and to divide Tibet into Chinese provinces - exactly what, not half a century later, the Communist Chinese would do.

But, when the news of the 1911 Revolution in China reached Lhasa, the Chinese troops mutinied against their Manchu officers and attacked the Amban's residence. Fighting broke out between rival Manchu and Chinese generals. Then, in a desperate attempt to regain their dwindling hold in Lhasa, the Chinese attacked the Tibetans. By then, however, the Tibetans had reorganised themselves with orders coming from the Dalai Lama in India. Chinese troops in Lhasa, and elsewhere in Tibet were overcome by the Tibetans and finally expelled in 1912. During this period of fighting and confusion the new ruler of China, President Yuan Shih-kai, tried to send military reinforcements to the beleagured troops while at the same time trying to placate the Tibetans. He apologised for the excesses and

said that he had restored the Dalai Lama who wrote back saying that he was not asking the Chinese Government for any rank as he intended to ezercise both spiritual and temporal rule in Tibet and declared Tibet's independence.

A treaty was signed between Tibet and Great Britain on September 7, 1904. During the British invasion Tibet conducted her affairs as an independent country. Peking did not so much as protest against the British invasion of Tibet.

When the British invaded Tibet, the 13th Dalai Lama went to Mongolia. The Manchus, who were then ruling China, made one last attempt to interfere in Tibet through the military campaigns of the infamous Chao Erhfeng. Mhen the Dalai Lama was in Kumbum monastery in the province of Amdo, he received two messages - one from Lhasa, urging him to return with all speed as they feared for his safety and could not oppose the intruding troops of Chao Erhfeng, and the other from Peking, requesting him to visit the Chinese capital. The Dalai Lama chose to go to Peking with the hope of prevailing upon the Chinese Emperor to stop the military agression against Tibet and to withdraw his troops.

When the Dalai Lama finally returned to Lhasa in 1909, he found that, contrary to all the promises he had received in Peking, Chao Erhfeng's troops were at his heels. During the annual Monlam festival of 1910, some 2,000 Manchu and Chinese soldiers under the command of General Chung Ying entered Lhasa and indulged in carnage, rape, murder, plunder, and wanton destruction. Once again the Dalai Lama was forced to leave Lhasa. He appointed a Regent to rule in his absence and left for the southern town of Dromo with the intention to go to British India if necessary. Events in Lhasa and the pursuing Chinese troops forced him to leave his country once again.

In India the Dalai Lama and his ministers appealed to the British Government to help Tibet. Meanwhile the Manchu occupation force tried to subvert the Tibetan Government and to divide Tibet into Chinese provinces - exactly what, not half a century later, the Communist Chinese would do.

In January 1913 a bilateral treaty was signed between Tibet and Mongolia at Urga. In that treaty both countries declared themselves free and separate from China.

The Thirteenth Dalai Lama, having returned from India i.n January 1913, issued a formal declaration of the complete independence of Tibet, dated the eighth day of the first month of the Water-Ox year (March 1913). The document also clarified:

"Now the Chinese intention of colonising Tibet under the patron-priest relationship has faded like a rainbow in the sky".

The Thirteenth Dalai Lama started international relations, introduced modern postal and telegraph services and, despite the turbulent period in which he ruled, introduced measures to modernise Tibet. On December 17, 1933 he passed away.

The following year a Chinese mission arrived in Lhasa to offer condolences, but in fact they tried to settle the Sino-Tibetan border issue. After the chief delegate left, another Chinese delegate remained to continue discussions. The Chinese delegation was permitted to remain in Lhasa on the same footing as the Nepalese and Indian representatives until he was expelled in 1949.

In September 1949, Communist China, without any provocation, invaded Eastern Tibet and captured Chamdo, the headquarters of the Governor of Eastern Tibet. On November 11, 1950, the Tibetan Government protested to the United Nations Organisation against the Chinese aggression. Although El Salvador raised the question, the Steering Committee of the General Assembly moved to postpone the issue.

On November 17, 1950, His Holiness the Fourteenth Dalai Lama assumed full spiritual and temporal powers as the Head of State because of the grave crisis facing the country, although he was barely sixteen years old. On May 23, 1951 a Tibetan delegation, which had gone to Peking to hold talks on the invasion, was forced to sign the so-called "17-point Agreement on Measures for the Peaceful Liberation of Tibet", with threats of more military action in Tibet and by forging the official seals of Tibet.

The Chinese then used this document to carry out their plans to turn Tibet into a colony of China disregarding the strong resistance by the Tibetan people. What is more, the Chinese violated every article of this unequal 'treaty' which they had imposed on the Tibetans.

On September 9, 1951 thousands of Chinese troops marched into Lhasa. The forcible occupation of Tibet was marked by systematic destruction of monasteries, suppression of religion, denial of political freedom, widespread arrests and imprisonment and massacre of innocent men, women and children.

On March 10, 1959 the nation-wide Tibetan resistance culminated in the Tibetan National Uprising against the Chinese in Lhasa. The Chinese retaliated with a ruthlessness unknown to the Tibetans. Thousands of men, women and children were massacred in the streets and many more imprisoned and deported. Monks and nuns were a prime target. Monasteries and temples were shelled.

On March 17, 1959 the Dalai Lama left Lhasa and escaped from the pursuing Chinese to seek political asylum in India. He was followed by unprecedented exodus of Tibetans into exile. Never before in their history had so many Tibetans been forced to leave their homeland under such difficult circumstances. There are now more than one hundred thousand Tibetan refugees all over the world.

It has been almost 40 years since Chinese occupied Tibet and the destruction of a unique

Culture is still going on Tibet, yet the world has not come in aid of Tibet, only lip service.

SwamyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16143
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 09:22

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby SwamyG » 12 Aug 2009 09:22

Sorry if this was already posted. Break India, says China think-tank

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby RayC » 12 Aug 2009 09:22

Xie,

Hope that helps.

It is from my HDD. I can't find the link.

Slightly dated though.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54159
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 12 Aug 2009 09:56

Two reports from Nightwatch, 11 Au 2009

India-China: Navy Chief of Staff Admiral Sureesh Mehta, said today India has neither the capability nor the intention to match China's military force, Indian Express reported.

Mehta said India must alter its strategic planning away from a focus on Pakistan to address China’s growing power. Also, China will begin asserting itself more forcefully in the region, and this will have consequences for India, such as in the boundary dispute between the two countries. Mehta said India's strategy toward China would be to use modern technology to create a "reliable stand-off deterrent" and to reduce the military gap to counter the growing Chinese presence in the Indian Ocean region.

Admiral Mehta’s comments are the most explicit about the nature Chinese threat ever made by a serving Indian senior military officer. Such comments have become much more explicit in this decade. He also showed that he has a clear sighted understanding of the relative importance of China vs Pakistan. India has won the struggle for regional supremacy in South Asia, especially the Indian Air Force and Indian Navy.

On a close reading, Mehta’s ending statements contradicted his opening statement. An arms race is occurring in four dimensions: geographic area, space and timing of the arrival of new modern weaponry. The leadership of Asia is at stake. India has a grudge match to play against China for the 1962 Chinese invasion of India. Memories are long in Asia.

The story behind the statement is that Mehta wants a larger share of defense rupees but not more than his service deserves.



There is no grudge agains misled pandas.

and


China-India: The South China Morning Post reported today China has sought India's expertise in dealing with Islamic insurgency to inform its handling of political unrest in the Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region, an official said. India has agreed to participate in a strategic dialogue to be conducted by Chinese State Councilor Dai Bingguo and India's National Security Adviser, M. K. Narayanan, a former Intelligence Bureau chief.

The significance of this agreement is that China has had an epiphany about success in counterinsurgency tactics. It has had a close relationship with Pakistan for decades, presumably including tracking Chinese Uighurs at Pakistani intelligence-run training camps for Kashmiri insurgents. That relationship has not helped China avoid an outbreak of Islamic extremism in Uighur country.

Now China is looking to India for advice, one of two South Asian countries – with Sri Lanka – that has defeated an insurgency. That is probably both good intelligence work and good policy thinking. The Chinese have the troop and paramilitary police strength to adopt and execute the Indian model of overwhelming law and order forces in the ratio of 400 policemen for every militant.

svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby svinayak » 12 Aug 2009 09:57

xie wrote:
Oh, yeah, it looks the ancient India map had a physical boundary with Tibet.

Atleast you are admitting this now.

It looks the after-1947 India government had a clearly delineated boundary with Tibet and had historic control over the disputed southern Tibetan area. What a lame argument!

PRC has nothing to do with two sovereign nations and their boundary.
I am not even talking about southern Tibet. There are large areas which are not even in the current Tibet.
If southern Tibet was an issue for PRC or ROC in 1947-1949 they did not even claim it then. Why is that?
Or is it that they do not know anything about Tibet land or Tibetian people. :lol:

vera_k
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3046
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 13:45

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby vera_k » 12 Aug 2009 10:06

China to be Buddhist Spiritual Superpower

Should bode well for India-China relations if this is true.

tripathi
BRFite
Posts: 168
Joined: 11 Dec 2008 12:35

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby tripathi » 12 Aug 2009 10:11

vasu_ray wrote:we could resume overt nuclear testing at a place of choice when the first PRC attack starts
how about nuclear testing at tawang and ladak. :wink:

RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15995
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby RajeshA » 12 Aug 2009 10:24

tripathi wrote:
vasu_ray wrote:we could resume overt nuclear testing at a place of choice when the first PRC attack starts
how about nuclear testing at tawang and ladak. :wink:


Now with all due respect, that would be stupid indeed!

Nuclear Tests are not some Yagyas, that if we carry them out somewhere, the locals would be happy! All it would prove is, how little consideration the Indians have for the sentiments of the Buddhists living in the area, who have a long relationship with Tibet! India would be weakening her legitimate sovereignty over these areas, and giving PRC a propaganda stick to beat India with!

vasu_ray
BRFite
Posts: 550
Joined: 30 Nov 2008 01:06

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby vasu_ray » 12 Aug 2009 10:39

by overt I meant above ground testing that can only be done outside any inhabited place something similar to murora atolls

you don't need too much prep

good for psyops

of course the real intention is to 'prove' the designs

and I think the best thing during the tapasya phase is to design a variety of them to ensure better chances of success

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16913
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 12 Aug 2009 10:44

tripathi wrote:
vasu_ray wrote:we could resume overt nuclear testing at a place of choice when the first PRC attack starts
how about nuclear testing at tawang and ladak. :wink:

how would you like some nuke testing in front of your house ? :wink:
thoda soch ke likho ji !

svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby svinayak » 12 Aug 2009 10:46

xie wrote:Please read your own history.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thanks, I've read enough.

Not enough! Know your Tibet


Even now many area of Tibet nation are within India and Nepal.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Funny, are you suggesting that China should claim these territory back from Nepal and India? Thanks for the support. -

You should know your land and region better than other people



You have not regained CONTROL of Tibet yet since you do not know the boundaries of Tibet country.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The fact is the boundaries between India and China/Tibet were never delineated (forget about the McMahon line!). The fact is much of the land in southern Tibet were disputed but occupied by India in the 1950s.

India and China never had a boundary in historical times. China never made any claims over southern Tibet in 1949 and does not really know the boundaries of Tibet.


Read British documents. Why did they have to have separate agreement with Tibet leadership and Tibet authority for the last 200 years. That is because they recognize Tibet as a separate nation and separate country.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
LOL, this is because the British empire was probably the most evil nation in the globe by launching a war to protect its opium business, by colonizing India for hundreds of years, and by
trading human beings as slaves. Don't start telling me the British also had the "good" intention of helping Tibet gain freedom and independence. It is laughable that you should use this as the basis of Tibet had been an independent nation.

British had to abandon everything in the subcontinent including Tibet when the Empire collapsed. ROC and PRC just claimed Tibet without knowing what Tibet and Tibetian land was.


What ever they have made statement recently is for getting trading concession from PRC govt and getting favors now but will never remove their historical position on Tibet.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
oh, do you want me to call the British and the India government hypocrite for saying something against their real will or call them coward for not dare to stand up against China?
Why dont you check with them and the historical records.


Just because China "invaded" Tibet in 1950 or China "didn't know" the India-Tibet border that India can help TIbet win its freedom as an independent nation.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Oh, please! this is the lamest self-promotion I've ever heard and I have to say you are even better than the communist party. The Japanese empire used exactly the same excuse to brutally invade the most part of Asia in WWII. I doubt you know any diplomatic history between India and China during the 1950s at all.

Free Tibet is in the strategic interest of India.
Please update yourself with the 5 diplomatic visits of Chau Enlai to India. I have the link here.
http://www.claudearpi.net/index.php?nav ... d=5&lang=1




arun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10248
Joined: 28 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby arun » 12 Aug 2009 11:46

PRC owns up to supplying spurious anti-malarial drugs falsely labelled as “Made in India”, to Nigeria:

Wednesday , August 12 , 2009

China admits to fake ‘made in India’ drugs: Official

New Delhi, Aug. 11 (PTI): China has admitted that its pharmaceutical companies were involved in shipping fake drugs labelled “made in India” to Nigeria.

“The Chinese authorities have accepted this position (that Chinese firms were involved),” an official said.

“The Indian government took up the matter with Nigerian authorities. On further probe it was found that the drugs had actually originated in China, not India,” he added.

In June, Nigeria’s drug regulatory authority, the National Agency for Food And Drug Administration And Control, had reported the seizure of a large consignment of fake anti-malarial generic pharmaceuticals labelled “made in India”. ……………

Telegraph

Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Sanku » 12 Aug 2009 12:00

xie wrote:
Sanku wrote:You guys need your opium, if not the one grown in the Gangetic plains, the ones your CPC feeds to you. So yes -- China won WWII against all odd and against all enemies, and Tibet is a part of China since 100000000000 thousand years only (please be adding more 0000s if they fall less)


There is an old Chinese saying "raising your voice doesn't make you more righteous". Let's have a cool head and talk about facts.


How can I raise my voice on typewritten forum, oh yes for that I WOULD HAVE TO USE BOLDS, which I have not, I suppose such facts are too hard for you to understand.

Meanwhile, if the normal voice causes you so much angst since the truth is a bitter pill, I can only wonder what will happen when we raise our voices. What facts do you want to talk about BTW?

The way in which CCP murdered its own culture by killing its own people? Of how a culture which is supposedly respect old people sent millions of those to die in concentration camp? Of how Tibetian art and culture were systematically destroyed by thugs?

Of how many monasteries were destroyed poor unarmed monks killed and the priceless works of art destroyed for the gold content? Of book burning?

Yes, we should talk of the Chinese civilization, which was once there, before Mao and cahoots completely destroyed themselves in their quest to be pale cookie cutter imitation of west. Monkeys pretending to be like their master in the short period they have seen of their masters. And since all you saw of your master (British & Japanese) for two hundred years was senseless bullying by the worst of the races you have tried to turn your entire country into the celebration of those two traits.

Shallow empty culture with superficial materialist glitter and any cost and enjoying the brutality of such a situation.

Dhiman
BRFite
Posts: 527
Joined: 29 Nov 2008 13:56

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Dhiman » 12 Aug 2009 12:09

xie wrote:On China's side, India, especially India's then PM Nehru, was just so greedy and naive to think that they can assume the ILLEGAL McMahon line as the India-China border and even pushed pass that line under the reckless "forward policy". Therefore I am not sure which side should be blamed.


Ms Xie,

With all due respect, anyone who has heard of the Himalayas would not even raise such arguments irrespective of what the official Chinese propaganda might be. The only thing that Nehru was trying to do was to formalize the natural boundary in the form of Himalayas that exists between India and the territories currently occupied by China.

Irrespective of wherever highly-loaded propaganda term (such as "forward policy") China likes to use, the fact is that Nehru is fully justified in formalizing this natural boundary since there is no means through which Chinese control could have historically extended to the south of the Himalayan peaks.

These 6000+ meters tall peaks of the Himalayas are as good as the natural boundary between India and Australia in the form of Indian Ocean. If Australia tomorrow started claiming A&N islands or state of Tamil Nadu despite this natural boundary and despite the fact that there are several "buffer states" that lie between India and Australia, then I would say that the Australian government have lost their ability to reason and gone mad.

xie wrote:Even the British government who had long colonized India has officially acknowledged that Tibet is part of China, don't forget that the GoI is also one


And this is where Nehru went wrong since his policies were not "forward" enough. Holding territory based on conquest and illegal occupation is not the only means of establishing claim. India has better claim(s) to Tibet than China does and I would certainly press for a future Indian government to assert these claims if only to neutralize the Chinese claims and aggressiveness.
Last edited by Dhiman on 12 Aug 2009 12:31, edited 4 times in total.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20491
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 12 Aug 2009 12:13

China is using flattery ("Beware of the flatterer,for he feeds you with an empty spoon",ancient saying) to keep India out of stirring the Uighar pot of woe that it is experiencing.With both Tibet and Xinjiang in ferment,India can pay back China in the same coin as it is doing in our N-East.With Chinese statements claiming Arunachal Pradesah as "S.Tibet",why on earth should we engage the Chinese in helping them resolve problems of their own making? Unless China openly acknowledges that Arunachal Pradesh is Indian territory and makes concessions on the border question,India should refrain from getting involved with Xinjiang.China wants to know what India's thinking is on the subject,whether we are attempting to stir the Uighar pot, and MK (MIke) is the patsy,who will later on be blamed by China when it feels like doing so!

Unless the border question is resolved,we should be most wary of assisting China in solving its own problems.We can politely tell China that instead of asking us to intervene in the Xinjiang problem,India should be part of normalising relations with the Tibetans and the Dalai Lama,as Tibet is "Indian" in religion and culture! Furthermore,China should stop its strategic and ballistic missile military assistance to Pakistan,which continues to send in terrorist into India.The GOI is being taken for a sweet ride by the PRC and we are going to pay a very heavy price when the ride is over and we are unceremoniously dumped on the highway to disaster.MMS and the MEA should be most careful in engaging with the OPRC,who preach one thing and practise another.

RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15995
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby RajeshA » 12 Aug 2009 12:31

Regarding Chinese suggestions/request for Indian Help in COIN,

India should simply say, that India does not wish to interfere in China's internal affairs, neither positively nor negatively, neither taking the side of Beijing, nor taking the side of Uyghurs.

This Chinese request for Indian consultancy on COIN is simply another way for PRC to equate the two situations. PRC is suggesting, that India's legitimacy on Kashmir is just as tenuous as PRC's legitimacy over East Turkestan, and in fact threatening India with consequences on Kashmir if India decides to meddle in East Turkestan. Or is PRC trying to send a message to the Islamists of the world, that Kashmir is also a fight worth fighting, the only difference wrt Kashmir, being that Indians have used better techniques to quell the problem. Or is PRC reminding us of our blunders in Sri Lanka, and rubbing salt in our wounds, where we ended up helping the Sinhala to quell the Tamil insurgency, an ethnicity we felt much closer to, thereby having a laugh at our expense, as if Indians are used to acting against Indian national interests. Of course, the message has been packaged in shiny wrapping paper.

There is no reason for India to try to help PRC with its 'Muslim' problem. Has PRC ever helped India? Was it help, when PRC refused to include Masood Azhar in the UN List of Terrorists? In fact India's whole Islamism problem is based on PRC's support for it.

India should refuse to take the bait. If we are cheeky, we can simply say, that "Uyghur is a much tougher problem that PRC faces, as the ethnic and religious gap between the Uyghurs and Han Chinese seems to be much greater. India was more lucky! The Chinese have our understanding for the uphill task they face!"

derkonig
BRFite
Posts: 952
Joined: 08 Nov 2007 00:51
Location: Jeering sekular forces bhile Furiously malishing my mijjile @ Led Lips Mijjile Malish Palish Parloul

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby derkonig » 12 Aug 2009 13:47

@Mods, I strongly call for the outright ban of all PRC drones. They will spew nothing else but the vilest of their propaganda. They cannot carry out a civilized debate, they will always go back to spewing lies and calling names the moment somebody calls their bluff. So, how does their participation add value in these forums? Don't their posts only reinforce the barbaric & brain-washed/dead image that PRC drones/citizens anyway have?

Let BRF not get carried away in the name of inclusive membership, multiple viewpoints and other PC stuff. Let us be bold enough to state that we need no more of 'education & opinion' from these cyber thugs.

rkirankr
BRFite
Posts: 773
Joined: 17 Apr 2009 11:05

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby rkirankr » 12 Aug 2009 15:08

xie wrote: Man, don't you see this is the nature of Nations, why do you think India is on a morally higher ground than China?

Because Chinese invaded Tibet after it was freed by British.


xie wrote:Oh, Jesus! British freed Tibet?!!! Please, don't insult your own intelligence any more.

Hmm, It seems commie idealogy has no effect on you. Be careful you may be sent for reeducation :rotfl: :rotfl:
Last edited by rkirankr on 12 Aug 2009 16:11, edited 1 time in total.


khan
BRFite
Posts: 568
Joined: 12 Feb 2003 12:31
Location: Tx

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby khan » 12 Aug 2009 16:28

Bade wrote:
khan wrote:I think a fruitful line of discussion would involve strategy's to deter and counter Chinese aggression.


Despite the incredible advances that PRC has made in recent decades, the wars it fought and did not win does give ample pointers to this. India needs to be strong and raise the bar unlike '62 and show willingness to keep going at it as long as it takes to deter any aggression. Vietnam has shown the way, so no need to panic. PRC has a lot to lose from any aggression. These are just empty threats on their part. Border incursions are not new in any case despite what is said in the media in all likelihood.


India needs more than just staying power. China can take the body count - this is a very nationalistic country with 30+ million extra males.

India needs to get aggressive, grab some land. Stir the pot in Tibet and maybe further north. Air drop some weapons to the Tibetians when hostilities start. I would go as far as suggesting the liberation of Tibet and maybe the territories further North.

The nuclear testing idea sounds non-starter - India will look too much like Pakistan... An unstable state with an itchy trigger finger.

amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby amit » 12 Aug 2009 17:06

khan wrote:India needs more than just staying power. China can take the body count - this is a very nationalistic country with 30+ million extra males.


Khan Saab,

Good point about the Dragon. However, it has one big weakness. And that's a loss of face. If India can give it a bloody nose while taking a lot of punishment itself then China loses face, more importantly the Government loses face to its people. The Nationalistic quotient would be badly affected immediately.

Methinks, asymmetric warfare is the way to go if there's a clash with China.\

And your second point:

India needs to get aggressive, grab some land. Stir the pot in Tibet and maybe further north. Air drop some weapons to the Tibetians when hostilities start. I would go as far as suggesting the liberation of Tibet and maybe the territories further North.


Is also a very good suggestion. Don't fight in the theater China wants to fight. Expand the battle to new areas, I'm sure the last thing China wants is an escalation. Their ideal situation would be sharp, localised border conflict like 1962 where they grab a lot of land. Once they do that declare a ceasfire, like in 1962, and then in a display of magnanimity just withdraw. I'm not really convinced China wants the whole of Arunachal, Tawang maybe on account of its importance to Dalai Lama but not the whole of the State.

IMO this show of magnanimity is very important part of the Chinese calculus.

Why? That's because that would be a lesson not just to India but to other nations like Vietnam, Philippines, Indonesia etc. Sooner or later China will try to develop the old tribute payment model in which the Middle Kingdom depended on. The modern version could be in the form of raw materials and access to markets, while competitors are kept out.

For all that to work, China has to appear not only as a strong power but a magnanimous one too. There's an interesting book, When China Rules the World by Martin Jacques. It makes for good reading to understand of how the Chinese leadership may operate.

With India being the next biggest bloke in the neighbourhood, China needs to make sure we are stymied and humiliated so we don't become a rallying point for smaller countries which are potential victims of the tribute system. And the best way to do that is to deliver a very public humiliation to India aka 1962. However, if the war is stalemate or if China loses control over the direction of the war the very purpose would be defeated and China would lose face.

The best thing for India to do IMVHO is to convey to China that we'd have a irrational response to any aggression. And I think this 2012 deadline for a Chinese attack is important because after that China, despite a bigger military may not be able to keep the border skirmish under its control. India would be too big for that. I think it already is and that's why the Chinese know they have problem in their hands.

JMT

RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15995
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby RajeshA » 12 Aug 2009 17:26

Very good insights amit!

India seriously needs to think out of the Kargil mold. There is no reason to restrict the theater to the border region only. A few things should happen simultaneously:

1. India should expand air strikes into Tibet on a much larger scale hitting at military bases and road, bridges and railroad infrastructure.

2. A Tibetan Resistance well trained but lying dormant in Tibet should be reactivated, and they should use guerrilla tactics and asymmetric warfare on the Chinese. Those Chinese forces used to suppress internal Tibetan dissent should be used.

3. A few thousand Indian commandos should join in asymmetric warfare against the Chinese.

4. All Tibetans should rise as one in protest against Chinese rule.

5. World's media should be focused on these Tibetan protests.

6. The rebellion should quickly expand to East Turkestan.

7. Very important is that India has long-range nuclear-armed missile capability of reaching all major Chinese cities, with a few nuclear submarines prowling in the Pacific and Indian Ocean, as a deterrent.

8. We should declare that any attacks on the Indian Mainland would mean a full nuclear retaliation against all big Han Chinese cities.

We should expand the border war into Tibet and East Turkestan areas, with full preparation of cooperation there.

Kargil was for an India in the last millennium. In this century we have to adopt a different mentality.

In the mean time India should start giving proper military Training to all Tibetans. Let us say it need not be official, but what stops Tibetans from getting training in India privately.

Gerard
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7870
Joined: 15 Nov 1999 12:31

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby Gerard » 12 Aug 2009 17:28

China can take the body count


And deprive all those families of their only child, their son?

This is 2009 and the days of mass attacks are over.

azad
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 1
Joined: 12 Aug 2009 08:40

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby azad » 12 Aug 2009 17:33

I realize this is a more military concerned forum but I feel it's sort of relevant to see where the context of the "split india" article came from. I had to sort of laugh at this article cuz I find it incredibly naive and aggressive at the same time. I just checked the source and the site it came from is merely a commercial web portal for military fans. If anything, this hardly strikes a cord as being the Chinese consensus, much less a Chinese strategy that we need to give serious weight onto. This being said, I agree with many posters that the Chinese attitude towards the territorial dispute has been less than friendly esp in recent time.

Admittedly I have limited understanding of both countries' specific historical backgrounds pertaining to the issue, but I see articles like these, and in someway the animosity, largely a result of lack of understanding of each other. Almost no Indians or Chinese have lived in the other country prior to the 80s (hence the unfortunate Nehru strategy) and very few know the other country well enough even in this day (would love to know the number of bilingual speakers). Most Chinese I know of get their conception of the Indians from the colonial period (20s-30s) when some Sikhs served as police/security personnel under British colonies in cities like Shanghai. They were loathed to a large degree because of them being perceived as British colonists' accomplice and being police/security personnel doesn't help. While that serves as an important part of the Chinese general public's perception of the Indians,Chinese flawed logic in the Tibetan issue further exacerbated the fault line at the time of the 50s & 60s. The Chinese logic went much like a)Tibet is ours b)if anyone meddles with it, they are trying to undermine our country, much alike the colonists c) India accepted His Holiness as a refugee in 1959, OMG they are against us. Bang, war in 62. Unfortunately, this logic line continues in some forms even to this day. Few Chinese have ever heard of hindi-chini bhai bhai (communist media control) and many simply assumed that India just "inherited" the British path of undermining China. On the other hand, most Indians I know of get the conception of China from 62, news channels, nepalese momos, although NRIs often get to know the Chinese diaspora through work relations.

An added inherent difficulty in bilateral understanding is the extreme diversity in both countries. The original article understands that of India but unfortunately tries to exploit that through egregious means. On the other hand, China is also hardly monolithic. Mao was partially successful during CR but every decade after that has only witnessed the fracturing of the society and increasing role of individualism. As many have pointed out, the communist state government is desperate trying to use nationalism to re-connect the threads in the society precisely due to this breakdown of a uniform society. Therefore, a single Indian or Chinese article rarely captures the sentiment or understanding of most people in the nation. After all, most people in both countries live in the countryside and many don't even go online (and most of them could care less about India Chinese relations to be honest).

While increasing number of Indian are living in China now (Punjabi by Nature's chefs are working at Vedas in Shanghai btw), but few get to mingle with the locals extensively- partially due to the mutual distrust. The Chinese knowledge of India is even more limited, as the Chinese population in India is still negligible even to this day. I was talking to a very pious Chinese friend once. She told me that she went to a local buddhist temple in China and there were sales of blessed incense sticks from an allegedly extremely high-ranking Indian monk. She was surprised when I inquired whether the monk was of Tibetan/Nepalese origin. One of the most positive images of India to many Chinese is ironically the perception of "a buddhist majority country like us".

Whoever said of nuking Ladakh is way out of his or her mind. Go visit once and be awed by the view and the hospitality of the people. It showcases what Tibet could have been like without Chinese interference. However, (correct me if I am wrong) I sense Ladakhis do feel encroached by the large number of Kashmiri workers and to some degree the increasing number of Muslims from the Kargil district, similar to the Tibetans' reaction to the Han workers, although the latter is even more atrocious as the Chinese government is intentionally orchestrating an ethnic dilution. Race tensions are an unfortunate reality for both countries (and most multi-ethnic countries in the world). Babri masjid and xinjiang represent some of the saddest chapters in both countries' recent history and there's no need to say which one glorifies a bigger failure. People died.

Regarding to soft power, I also see that India leads significantly in terms of political appeals. However, I do not entirely agree with Nye's usage of the term and I see it as more of a channel for communication rather than domination (well, maybe rumali rotis are dominating shanghai while gobi manchurians are dominating bangalore). Both Indian and Chinese traditional cultures have large audiences in the western world but unfortunately neither shows up much in the other. There are increasing number of fans of Hindi films in China (even an SRK fan club at http://www.shahrukhkhan.com.cn). Although Chinese movies continue to do well at Cannes, Berlin, and Oscar, still very few Indians have seen any, and Chandni Chowk to China doesn't do. Soft powers have been beneficial for peaceful purposes while the record for military advances remains dubious (the trite case of Iraq). Thus I do hope India and China both grow in their soft powers. After all, i doubt any Chinese fans of SRK will agree with the article aforementioned.

While peace may be an artificially constructed concept to many, it does ring the bell to people who are living at the core area of where the conflict is at. Ask any Ladakhis or Sikkimese whether they want a war. It's easy for people from bombay/delhi/shanghai/beijing to talk of the possibility of a frontier war that has virtually no effect on their lives and I am certainly also guilty of that. There are many instances when the Chinese actions are provocative to say the least, but if a restoration of "justice" only brings bloodshed to the people we want to protect, is it worth it? Justice for the purpose of life or for our internal sense of dignity? Well, this is a military forum, sorry for the digression. But even from the strategic point of view, how much will India benefit from a "win" in this military conflict? China probably needs a war much more desperately than India to divert the focus on its internal domestic issues, should India co-operate with the communist diversionary war by wasting the blood of young Indian lives?

Sorry for the long post and please help me along. I do appreciate this forum/thread, as it gives a reasonable space for understanding and communication. I didn't hear about the case of Masood Azhar and I too am aghast/angry at the Chinese government's action. A previous poster mentioned about banning all Chinese posters. I am of Chinese origin but I do not consider nation as a meaningful characterization. After all, which nation can really "own" mountains like everest or kailash. The war of the border is a shame to the mountains below, which belong to everyone in the humanity.

Username changed to azad.
Rahul.
Last edited by Rahul M on 12 Aug 2009 18:03, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: edit.

amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby amit » 12 Aug 2009 17:50

RajeshA wrote:Very good insights amit!

India seriously needs to think out of the Kargil mold. There is no reason to restrict the theater to the border region only. A few things should happen simultaneously:...


Thanks Rajesh.

I think we fall into the trap of looking at the effect and not the cause in much of our analysis about China. Everyone here understands that there's a high probability of a war with China. But we're too focused on war scenarios rather than trying to understand the rationale behind a possible war.

India vis a vis China is a status quoist power, meaning that we'll never start a war ourselves. But China can and is certainly willing to do so. However, I think the basic assumption that China would start a war to occupy large parts of Indian territory forever is not correct.

The reason for that are the following IMVHO:

1) It would take too much effort to pacify the population (say in the case of Arunachal)
2) While China would like to humiliate India and box it in South Asia to ensure its ascendance I don't think it's willing to do so in such a manner that the sole raison d'etre of the Indian leadership would be take "badla". It wouldn't want an irrational power on its vulnerable borders with Tibet. And that would push India irreversibly into the US camp.
3) Fighting a war and occupying Indian land permanently sends precisely the kind of negative signals that the authoritarian Chinese regime and its friends around the world would not want. For example just think the position the Madrain-speaking stooge who's the Aussie PM would be put in. His beloved China has occupied land of a democratic country. Even he'd find it difficult to wiggle out of that one.
4) Finally its about the signal that China would send out to its smaller neighbours. It wants the appearance of a stern but benign Middle Kingdom - an image which would be considered acceptable to these small nations who'd rather pay tribute than mess with it.

All these reason methinks leads to only one aim in a war against India. Humiliating it in the world stage to ensure a free run to Chinese hegemony. And that Yellow dream falls flat if the war gets out of hand or does not go according to the script. It is not about occupying Arunachal forever.

Again JMT, take it for what its worth.

amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby amit » 12 Aug 2009 17:55

Maybe our Chinese posters would like to chip in? :twisted:

However, NO LOSS OF FACE is not guaranteed!

:rotfl:

brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby brihaspati » 12 Aug 2009 18:01

There were quite extensive cultural and commercial contacts, and therefore between traders at least, between China and India - north India, and the southern kingdoms even after Islamic disruption of the northern trade routes. The link with Bharat was disruptedonly after Islamic rule. The colonial empire had every reason not to allow relinking for their own interests.

What the Maoists have done, and are increasingly doing, is give a national project of empire building and colonizing to replace the weakening appeal of "communism" - especially because all the practical economism are throwing up more and more evidence of the irrelevance of the "communist" claims to absolute power. The philosophical basis of "Marxism" stands discredited in the very "success" of the radical capitalist strategy followed by the CCP.

For those Chinese posters who feel that it is fortunate that weak leaders are at the head of GOI, I should simply point out that it is also actually fortunate for India that such rash and boasting leadership of CCP or the PLA exists. For these very hawks will help to replace the current weak leadership of GOI. I would encourage the Chinese posters to shout more about Tibet and the invincibility and empire building by CCP or the PLA. You are actually helping us to bring up the correct leadership of India.

My gratitude!

archan
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6821
Joined: 03 Aug 2007 21:30
Contact:

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Postby archan » 12 Aug 2009 18:04

derkonig wrote:@Mods, I strongly call for the outright ban of all PRC drones.

While I know this discussion has somewhat moved the thread into uncomfortable zones (for some), but it does not look like it has been derailed and despite the dissent it seems to me that the users have been rather respectful of each other and a lot of information has be brought out by both sides as a result of this debate.
We don't want this forum to be allowing only one point of view. Sometimes contrary views from outside provide for good discussion. The Chinese members - they have their thoughts, views and understanding based on their education. This has so far been a good debate as far as I am concerned.


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 29 guests