Vote for the MRCA

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Which fighter would you select for the IAF's MRCA?

Poll ended at 30 Aug 2009 02:08

Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet
31
12%
Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper
10
4%
Eurofighter Typhoon
44
17%
Saab Gripen NG
13
5%
RAC MiG MiG-35
46
18%
Dassault Rafale
109
43%
 
Total votes: 253

Gerard
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Vote for the MRCA

Postby Gerard » 16 Aug 2009 02:08

The evaluation flights of the MRCA contenders has begun. There have been numerous iterations of the MRCA thread. Technical information has been presented. Everyone has had their say. Let us now see the forum's choice. If you were a member of the CCS, which MRCA contender would you select?

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby PratikDas » 16 Aug 2009 08:47

Gerardji, my vote is cast.

Perhaps one shouldn't be able to see the results thus far before casting his vote to prevent herding?

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby Austin » 16 Aug 2009 08:58

Oh if I were a member of CCS , I would cancel this deal waste of Tax Payers money and put this money to good use for aam junta , and let IAF build more MKI and fund LCA/MCA from the same amount.

But if PM forces me with the working TN bum under my chair to make a choice or else ......... I will vote for Mig-35 coz of logistics advantage and cost effective choice.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby AmitR » 16 Aug 2009 09:19

I vote for Spitefire. Why is it not even in the list?

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby m mittal » 16 Aug 2009 10:50

I don't know why but I have a gut feeling that its gonna be an american plane at the end of the day.

P.S.: I did not vote for an american plane.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby Dev A » 16 Aug 2009 11:57

m mittal wrote:I don't know why but I have a gut feeling that its gonna be an american plane at the end of the day.


Fully agree with you. At the end of it, many planes will qualify, but this is (1) A golden opportunity for India to get out of the Russian sphere and (2) India needs to further a relationship with the US.

Pakistan is a distraction now. Our threat is China. With the Maoists in Nepal and gaining strength in WB and Orissa, I fear a North to South punch through which will divide India in two.

Devesh

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby KrishG » 16 Aug 2009 13:27

Rafale, Eurofighter and Super Hornet are the clear contenders. Super Hornet seems to have the edge as of know.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby saptarishi » 16 Aug 2009 14:18

f-16in is good ,super hornet is hot bcoz of apg-79,mig-35 is sexy --tvc,,,gripen is not hot,,but typhoon and rafale are ahead,,,,,but typhoon doesn't have a fully developed aesa,,,they only have a CAESAR/CAPTOR-E demonstrator,,,,so its rafale all the way,,,,buy rafale get a kiss from sexy CARLA BRUNI,,,,french first lady

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby kuldipchager » 16 Aug 2009 14:31

Mig 35.Since 1963 Mig have serve Iaf and India very well.We do know that all contender needs business to servive but we can't let Mig down.We can upgrade mig to over needes.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby Nihat » 16 Aug 2009 14:43

We do know that all contender needs business to servive but we can't let Mig down



The country can't let the IAF down either - that's much more important.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby anirban_aim » 16 Aug 2009 15:34

Friends, we all know that, it has been said a no. of times from the GOI's side that geo - political considerations will play a major part in finalizing the deal. Now that to me means taking unkil's tacit support in covering our flanks in case the chinks get over ambitious, which by going by their past records can not be ruled out and this is becoming the single major security threat with Pak becoming more of a distraction (Hope most will agree with this assumption)

Secondly, GOI cant discard Russkies totally as a strategic partner, but they are bound to see red in Unkil's team runs away with the pie.

So to balance things out IAF/GOI might decide on splitting it between Unkil's gifts & Russkie's candies. Depending on how deparately IAF wants to get away from the Russky umbrella, we might see some French Love also coming in.

I'm more than willing to stick my neck out to rule out Gripen & Eurofighter.

Comments, Counter Points most welcome....

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby enqyoob » 16 Aug 2009 17:57

10,000 Sopwith Camels. The only plane for the only runways that will be left after 2 days of Befitting Lessons.

MiG otherwise, because it leaves some chance of advancing independent R&D, and the aerodynamics beats the heck out of the competing offers. Besides, the fuselage shape is reminescent of Mandira Bedi. Typhoon reminds me of Shrilleen.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby abhiti » 16 Aug 2009 18:52

My vote is to Rafale, I see so far it is winning.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby RavinM » 16 Aug 2009 19:04

My 100 votes are for the Mig 35, TVC. gives more teeth for the bite!! :idea:

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby shiv » 16 Aug 2009 20:48

Despite the fact that it is detested, I voted for F/A 18 because I suspect it might win.

Of course there is a caveat. India negotiates hard and the US will have to give us what we want (and we will sign their clauses in exchange)

Let me state my thoughts. Assume Indian manufacturing capability is generation A. The F/A 18 offers us generation A+1. Eurofighter, Rafale and Gripen are all probably generation A+1.5 to 2.
In other words India's capacity to absorb the technology may be limited and we will import rather than produce because of that. This is less likely to occur with lower generation technology which will not provide such a tech jump.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby AmitR » 16 Aug 2009 21:04

My suggestion is that BR should start a special Betting forum for MRCA. Since no one seems knows what IAF is technically looking for and what MoD wants it is as good as playing poker. I suggest we should keep a standard betting amount and the money will go to the people who have selected the correct plane.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby Rahul M » 16 Aug 2009 21:07

why isn't there a 'none of the above' option ?

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby prabir » 16 Aug 2009 21:08

Peter Baynham wrote:
m mittal wrote:I don't know why but I have a gut feeling that its gonna be an american plane at the end of the day.


Fully agree with you. At the end of it, many planes will qualify, but this is (1) A golden opportunity for India to get out of the Russian sphere and (2) India needs to further a relationship with the US.

Pakistan is a distraction now. Our threat is China. With the Maoists in Nepal and gaining strength in WB and Orissa, I fear a North to South punch through which will divide India in two.

Devesh


Really, India can get divided ? Impossible. Its just not possible.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby karthik » 16 Aug 2009 21:08

I voted for the Mig-35, simply because we get complete technology transfer including Engine Design and Radar. In case of war no Technology Denial would hamper our strategy. An independent foreign policy is more important than an token gesture from uncle sam. As i see it, its better to have a blunt sword made by us than to have a sharp one from our enemies friend.

Its not a good idea to put india in a list with Afghanistan, that show uncle Sams arrogance in foreign policy towards us.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby NRao » 16 Aug 2009 21:10

This is NOT a representative survey - one that would reflect an Indian environment.

In India voting more than once on such systems is allowed. Changing someone else vote, ................................

So, take this result set with a boat load of salt.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby Sandipan » 16 Aug 2009 21:39

I voted Rafale, I believe it is the best among the list

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby krisna » 16 Aug 2009 21:39

voted for MIG. with full TOT.
agreed shornet EF and rafale might have some edge over MIG in technology.
1) Russia(erstwhile SU) has been with us, though there has been :cry: :( nowadays. overall there are the most important suppliers of defence tech to us. It may be good or bad to us. there may be troubles wrt to spare parts supplies etc. when there is TOT India should be able to do build and operate fully on its own in India. !!less dependence on Russia.( my untrained gut feeling- hope gurus can correct me!!) They have helped us in many ways-latest being in ATV. I am not sure how much SU/Russia has helped in India defence, but definitely substantial compared to other contenders. They have also not impeded our progress.
2) Not sure how much will uncle sam help us in adversity. it arms bakistan, may not help us wrt chini. it likely will force us to stop retaliation in case of war. there is and will be some arm twisting India in many ways to its benefit onlee.
It has embargoed many tech transfer to india under various guises. now it is supposedly becoming more friendly due to changed economic conditions and also India is rising on its own with less dependence on sam.
I hope sam does not stifle Indian technolgy thru various means at its disposal.
3) As per my knowledge Europe(french/sweden etc) will salivate and lick to all and sundry when money is offerred.

Hope GOI takes a correct decision and IAF gets the best AC with all its goodies.

JMT.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby Gerard » 16 Aug 2009 21:49

Rahul M wrote:why isn't there a 'none of the above' option ?


Because one of those six is going to be selected by the CCS. There is no going outside the contenders who responded to the RFP.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby Rahul M » 16 Aug 2009 21:52

gerard boss, I was just joking ! :D

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby sharma.abhinav » 16 Aug 2009 22:00

I've voted for Dassault Raffale. It meets the original criteria of the competition to have an advanced technology multirole fighter, is not Russian (overreliance), is of a new design but has been used in war time scenarios, past experience with Mirage has been great, and is also sanction proof. Just the cost is on a higher side but that shouldn't be much of a problem with the increased defence budget.

Just my 2 cents. :D

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby SG_Raman » 16 Aug 2009 22:09

I have voted for EF .
Bcos, I am EADS employee :D

Real Reasons being:

1. Young Platform with opportunities to tailor develop to suit customer needs. (IAF will take any winning A/C and is sure going to tailor it with domestic Tech on communication & network kit, modify heat & radar sig with additional Composites, Mission Comp SW (partial) etc. does not have to be only EF)

2. Tech Spin-off's from Airframe, Avionics and Engine can cross develop (EU - Ind). Overnight nothing is going to happen. Over 5-7 year period and committed working groups.. real spin offs will be there. There are good e.g.s from the past were two nations have worked and enjoyed good partnerships. Airbus Composite Mafc. uses SW Gita from ADA/HAL and there will be others.

3. What could be the opportunity for IAF / India is in this deal would be a much deeper Industry / Tech. partnership wide across various aerospace institutions.

4. Towards the end one could say, above points could be said the same for other A/Cs in the race. Yes, i agree to most.

So, i believe this will come down to evaluation on:
40% to technical grounds,
40 % to TOT (range, volume, time-frame, latitude available for future local programs)
& 20 % towards a Political decision.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby KrishG » 16 Aug 2009 22:39

karthik wrote:I voted for the Mig-35, simply because we get complete technology transfer including Engine Design and Radar. In case of war no Technology Denial would hamper our strategy. An independent foreign policy is more important than an token gesture from uncle sam. As i see it, its better to have a blunt sword made by us than to have a sharp one from our enemies friend.

Its not a good idea to put india in a list with Afghanistan, that show uncle Sams arrogance in foreign policy towards us.


Russia will only transfer production technology. They'll not be giving us any designs of their engines and radars. Better go with EF or Rafale.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby karthik » 16 Aug 2009 23:21

KrishG wrote:
karthik wrote:I voted for the Mig-35, simply because we get complete technology transfer including Engine Design and Radar. In case of war no Technology Denial would hamper our strategy. An independent foreign policy is more important than an token gesture from uncle sam. As i see it, its better to have a blunt sword made by us than to have a sharp one from our enemies friend.

Its not a good idea to put india in a list with Afghanistan, that show uncle Sams arrogance in foreign policy towards us.


Russia will only transfer production technology. They'll not be giving us any designs of their engines and radars. Better go with EF or Rafale.


From what i read Russia has said it will transfer all "key" technologies to India, doesnt that mean complete technology transfer?

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby Nihat » 16 Aug 2009 23:26

all said and done , Russia still does not want us to become entirly self reliant in this sector , after all it has to look after it's future export market too.

Engine and AESA tech. would always remain out of our hands unless we develop it ourselves , just like the case with Brahmos (seeker and booster tech.).

I voted Rafale , simply because the IAF is looking for the latest technology aircraft's and Rafale alongside Euro are the best bet in that regard.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby Rahul M » 16 Aug 2009 23:49

karthik wrote:From what i read Russia has said it will transfer all "key" technologies to India, doesnt that mean complete technology transfer?

it never does.
but they will transfer more than the others IMO, except may be Saab.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby RamaY » 17 Aug 2009 00:00

My pic is Mig35. All the balance amount should go to LCA/MCA program.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby atma » 17 Aug 2009 00:19

Voted for the loser... at least on this poll. :cry:

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby karthik » 17 Aug 2009 00:28

Rahul M wrote:
karthik wrote:From what i read Russia has said it will transfer all "key" technologies to India, doesnt that mean complete technology transfer?

it never does.
but they will transfer more than the others IMO, except may be Saab.


It really depends on what we get in the bargain, if the Russians are ready to give full tech transfer for the cost of 35-40million/unit cost then i guess GOI would go for the Mig. If the tech transfer is only as good as the French deal i suppose they would stick with the Rafale. Either way with the Migs low cost we could still afford some Super Hornets after the buy, just a thought.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby Rahul M » 17 Aug 2009 00:35

as I said, there is no such thing as full tech transfer.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby karthik » 17 Aug 2009 00:42

Rahul M wrote:as I said, there is no such thing as full tech transfer.


Ya, i get that but i thought Mig was in a desperate position for us to do some arm twisting and get the best out of the deal. Who know to what level they could be brought down.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby Rahul M » 17 Aug 2009 00:45

however desperate they may be, they are not stupid. giving us complete tech (although that is practically impossible for reasons which would make this post too long if explained) or even 95% tech, it will make us virtually independent, effectively cutting off *any* chances of future sales.

as I said, they are not stupid. they will always hold something back, it's the prudent thing to do.
we would, if we were in the same situation.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby Cain Marko » 17 Aug 2009 01:35

however desperate they may be, they are not stupid. giving us complete tech (although that is practically impossible for reasons which would make this post too long if explained) or even 95% tech, it will make us virtually independent, effectively cutting off *any* chances of future sales.

But but saar, they are already at this point - india either goes independent or western, Mig knows this. The MRCA is in all probability india's last phoren purchase. There is no question of "cutting off future sales". This sale is the mother of all sales and it is the finality of it that makes it so not the just the $$$s involved.
So they give all the damn TOT for a bird they are not so hot about any way @ a decent price where they can make some profit (if not a killing) OR get nothing, now or in the future. This is their last shot at the IAF pie (same is the case with the rest) so why not give away all doodads/TOT for a bird like the 35, which is hardly their premier platform? They almost did it with the MKI and even the frenchies were willing to do it with the M2k-5.
as I said, they are not stupid. they will always hold something back, it's the prudent thing to do. we would, if we were in the same situation.

What can they hold back? India is already in the Pakfa program something league ahead of any fulcrum, India today is on the verge of total indigenization in man aspects of its defence production, this is a last chance for big $$$s. The ej-200 guys said as much when they noted that "we are willing to give them all the tech they want for the lCA engines, because if we deny it now, they'll get it in a couple of years anyway".

cm.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby Cain Marko » 17 Aug 2009 01:39

As far as the vote goes, if india can't get the MiG-35 for a ridiculously low price enabling them to get close to 180 super fulcrums with all the TOT and doodads they want, i'd rather see a rafale.

CM.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby b_patel » 17 Aug 2009 01:40

The Mig-35 should not be allowed to win this contest. Tech wise its not as advanced as any of the other contenders. It has some nice parts: OLS mainly, but at the end of the day why buy an aircraft that the host country won't even induct? Also people on this board are convinced that it is one of the cheapest fighters in the competition. All of the quoted prices are just huge guesses, there is no possible way to determine how much it will cost when it is not even being produced. Same could be said for the Gripen but at least SAAB has the older Gripens to estimate off of.
That said I voted for the Eurofighter!! It is the second best aircraft in the world (after the raptor). Its the best A2A fighter in the competition, nothing comes close (maybe the Rafale). India would be allowed to collaborate in future Tranche developments. EF has a good export base unlike the other contenders (I don't could the legacy hornets and falcons). Its practically sanction proof. Posters on this forum rag on its A2G capabilities, lets wait for the weapons trails im sure it will surprise you! Also the lack of AESA (prototype exists, will have have more T/R modules than the APG-79 might be a better radar in the end who knows). Also Everyone rags on the price of the EF, well thats what happens when you want to buy the best you gotta pay.

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Re: Vote for the MRCA

Postby Rahul M » 17 Aug 2009 01:42

But but saar, they are already at this point - india either goes independent or western, Mig knows this. The MRCA is in all probability india's last phoren purchase.

powerplants !


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