Should we discontinue EVMs?

[Raja Bose]

Mobile connectivity is universal. The camera can send still pix to server every 2 min, as good as real time for us.

Are we talking about India here? Do you have any clue about mobile connectivity in India? Heck your so-called mobile connectivity is not universal even in TFTA USA. And as for sending pix to server every 2 mins. - do you have any clue whatsoever about mobile data costs at the rate you are talking about? Let me guess.....NO! This drivel is coming from a guy who claims to be a "common" and yet has NO idea how the commons live. Mehta ji please step out of your elitist Mercedes S-Class and take a look outside your elitist air-conditioned world. High on rhetoric and allegations....low on facts, are we? Please tell me how are you different from Arundhati Suzanne Roy?

But camera these are so reliable that failure will be less than 0.1% cases, and will be randomly distributed. In worst, case, how much do camera cost? If not more, we can put two cameras as sensitive booth.

Oh oh....now Mr. Mehta has become a Camera Bhakt! How quickly does the transition happen?! Ofcourse cameras cannot be hacked.....mobile communications cannot be hacked....camera firmware cannot be tampered with on Samsung CEO's orders..... RM ji, you sure have dug yourself into a pretty deep stinky cesspool havent you!

[Raja Bose]

Yay! 1400 posts completed...thats 100 in less than a week...at this rate about 2 months to go for that Oldie tag. Thank you Rahul Mehta! Your drivel drives up my post count and takes care of my entertainment too!

[harbans]

Bose dada, this thread might end up in the trash can, if you're thnking upping our post count this way..you might just end up trainee again. Don't count on that..

Anyways good logical, rational stuff from you and Dileep ji. One thing i learnt here that without total access to his stand alone EVM or it's source code it is difficult to hack into it. Speciall considering the conversation you had with the pro US TFTA hacker guy.

However is it not prudent there is transparency to show due auditable/ verifiable processes have been followed to keep the source codes of such EVMS sacrosanct.

PS: Anyways hope this thread is not trashed and preserved. Some very good arguments and logic has gone through here. This i not a dead topic anytime soon and will crop up every time in elections.

[Dileep]

Bose dada, this thread might end up in the trash can, if you're thnking upping our post count this way..you might just end up trainee again. Don't count on that..

Oh, I will pull whatever strings I still have to retain it. IT is my retirement account of posts you see.

Anyways good logical, rational stuff from you and Dileep ji. One thing i learnt here that without total access to his stand alone EVM or it's source code it is difficult to hack into it. Speciall considering the conversation you had with the pro US TFTA hacker guy.

There is a disconnect in the campaign that goes around in the public media, and the campaign that goes around here. The public media campaign and the ECs defense against it is based on the layman's perception of security. The campaign here goes much much deeper than that.

It is an accepted fact everywhere that the standalone, KISS EVM isn't field hackable, and the ONLY vulnerability is in its manufacturing itself. Even RM agrees to that. Everything that goes on in the public media is hence just circus.

However is it not prudent there is transparency to show due auditable/ verifiable processes have been followed to keep the source codes of such EVMS sacrosanct.

We need to consider both campaigns. Publishing the details is going to harm the EVM use tremendously. Hence my proposal of audit by a technical committee nominated by all parties.

PS: Anyways hope this thread is not trashed and preserved. Some very good arguments and logic has gone through here. This i not a dead topic anytime soon and will crop up every time in elections.

I wish that RM shows the backbone to raise his points in public in a way the general netas can pick it up. His advertisement will be comprehended by his type of "commons" only, and will have no effect on the people who matters. Instead, he should have made the following argument.

Code: Select all

The EVM chips are manufactured by a company abroad. This company can insert trojan code into the chip, and subvert the process.

The software is developed and handled by a very small team in BEL. They can subvert the system

This will FORCE the EC and BEL/ECIL to publicly defend those points, and we all will know them.

Will you, Rahul?

[Rahul Mehta]

Like the count on the stamper could not be modified. This is a mechanical counter as per your suggestion. That is a million times easy to modify.

It is electro-mechanical. You need some electronic circuit to create 20s delay. You might want to take a look at franking machines used in banks these days. The one I am proposing is stand alone version to stamp ballot papers with 20 second delay.

You have absolutely no clue on the vast spread of the nation, and the type of infra and facilities available all around. For your kind information, India is NOT Ahmedabad. Come back to me after you visit 30 villages in interior UP/Bihar. then we will talk.

In such remote places, nothing can stop criminals from sitting in booth for 2 hrs and punching buttons 120*5 = 200 times, unless there is police or presiding officer who resist. Pls confine to paper vs EVM comparison only. Also, such places are sparse by population and so number of votes in those booths are less. So if rigging will have less damage there. In such places, camera will be recording only and cannot transmit. Later, one can also look at radio based transmitter which can work on car battery and transmit one pix to some control station at distance as far as tech allows.

Cameras being raliable, have you any idea the abuse they have to bear in the polling process. In next election, get out of that fancy car of yours and see what it takes to arrange polling in a village.

Camera can undergo huge abuse and still function well. These days, they are pretty robust.

Rahul Mehta: You are supporting EC's decision to keep the chip layout (which also can have trojan), binary, source code is MOST likely because you actually suspect that there is some foul play and you know that that foul play may get discovered if design etc are disclosed. And you want that foul play to go on and so you insist that design etc be kept secret or be confined to experts who have promised full "co-operation".

Dileep: Are you arguing that a committee of experts, nominated by the parties are "co-operative?" In other words, are you alleging that all parties are supporting rigging?

Parties dont own India, we commons do. I couldn't care less what "parties" want. If you insist that EVM design etc should not be disclosed to public and EVMs should not be given to public for cost price, then it has ONLY one reason : to enable EC to steal votes. The parties may want to stop rigging, but the experts they appoint may later decide to sell out. They are small in number and "small number of people can always be managed".

Rahul, why do you oppose the formation of a committee of experts, nominated by all parties?

I have NOTHING against committees. Have as many as you want. I only insisted that design, code should be made public and EVMs should be given at cost (just as it is done in US), so that if EVMs are tempered at source, one can prove it. You are the one who oppose making design etc public and then you blame me for for you defunct stand !! Boss, dont blames others and "log kyaa kahenge" for YOUR choices.

[Tanaji]

n such remote places, nothing can stop criminals from sitting in booth

True, but EVMs make ballot stuffing much more difficult as compared to paper ballots. This has been pointed to you umpteen times already , but you deliberately fail to concede the fact.

120*5 = 200

Of course, in RahulWorld where time and space laws dont apply, the above holds as well. We like our mathematics laws to work though.

. In such places, camera will be recording only and cannot transmit

What is this fixation with a camera? You are the text book definition of a Grade A hypocrite. In your world everyone is corrupt except the Great Netaji Rahul Mehta. What is to prevent someone from hacking the output of the CCD? It is even easier than your stupid theory of modulo 5 EVM hacking

Camera can undergo huge abuse and still function well. These days, they are pretty robust.

Take your camera in rain or in 45C+ weather. See how robust it is.

[Dileep]

It is electro-mechanical. You need some electronic circuit to create 20s delay. You might want to take a look at franking machines used in banks these days. The one I am proposing is stand alone version to stamp ballot papers with 20 second delay.

I know how franking machines work. Their mechanism is different than what you propose. Anyway, it is not a viable solution for the vast operation of polling. The logistics to manufacture, service and maintain then is totally unviable.

Except in RahulWorld, where everything is trivial.

In such remote places, nothing can stop criminals from sitting in booth for 2 hrs and punching buttons 120*5 = 200 times, unless there is police or presiding officer who resist. Pls confine to paper vs EVM comparison only. Also, such places are sparse by population and so number of votes in those booths are less. So if rigging will have less damage there. In such places, camera will be recording only and cannot transmit. Later, one can also look at radio based transmitter which can work on car battery and transmit one pix to some control station at distance as far as tech allows.

Don't your hypocrisy have no limits? The voters there are not a part of "you commons" that is why right?

Get out of that merc s-class and find out how the rest of 70 crore voters go around their daily life, before "you commons" try to mess with them.

Camera can undergo huge abuse and still function well. These days, they are pretty robust.

"The Mehta" said so, hence it must be true.

Parties dont own India, we commons do.

No. Not "you commons". Not the Rutgers educated, 1Cr rich snobs. The rest of 70 Crores of real people, who face real problems of existence every day, who trust their party and neta to improve their lot, THEY OWN India.

Mr. Mehta, you have no right to speak about them. You don't even acknowledge their existence beyond the cell network. You don't acknowledge their lives, where one need to walk two days to reach them with the polling materials.

"You commons" have nothing to do with them. "You commons" don't even care they exist. You, the self appointed leader of "you commons" don't even think about someone who have to walk three days to get to his talati's office.

You are nobody Rahul, "you commons" don't even have a "stake" in the process, lest OWN it.

I couldn't care less what "parties" want.

Obviously. "You commons" have no platform with the parties, and agreeing to this will not further your personal agenda. You want people to stand in queue, and receive the approval of "The Mehta".

Sorry sir. It ain't happening. Whether you like it or not, the parties are the stakeholders of elections in the Republic of India". Not "you commons" who have no clue about the lot of the rest of 70 crores.

If you insist that EVM design etc should not be disclosed to public and EVMs should not be given to public for cost price, then it has ONLY one reason : to enable EC to steal votes.

That judgement comes from "The Mehta" so, it must be true. You, who have no clue on how the EC manages to extend the franchise to the remotest parts of the Republic, and have no appreciation for the people living beyond cell coverage, is now judge and jury on this.

First you establish your qualification to pass that judgement. Talk to someone from the rest of the 70 crores, other than "you commons" and ask them if they trust the govt and EC to conduct free and fair election.

I did, and I got an overwhelming affirmative.

Your judgement means nothing. You don't have the necessary qualifications to pass that judgement.

The parties may want to stop rigging, but the experts they appoint may later decide to sell out. They are small in number and "small number of people can always be managed".

That is the party's problem. The leadership and policies of all parties (including yours) is with a small number of people.

Your criminal devious mind is showing in your statements that EVERYONE will be sold out. The world runs on some element of trust, and you don't want any part of that.

Maybe it is YOU who have some problem.

I have NOTHING against committees. Have as many as you want. I only insisted that design, code should be made public and EVMs should be given at cost (just as it is done in US)

The design is NOT published in the US, and devices are NOT sold to non govt entities. READ UP before you shoot off your mouth.

You can insist anything you want. You can insiste the PM take your permission before taking a leak, but that doesn't carry any weight. You are NOBODY. "You commons" who are a feeble minority in the citizenry are NOBODY. It is the real 70 crore people whom you don't care are who matters.

If you want to be heard, win an election and present where it counts. Or do it the way others did, by making agitation. Why don't you organize a procession of more than 20 people in Ahmedabad and show your might.

Then we will talk.

so that if EVMs are tempered at source, one can prove it. You are the one who oppose making design etc public and then you blame me for for you defunct stand !! Boss, dont blames others and "log kyaa kahenge" for YOUR choices.

I have given a means that should convince the stakeholders of elections about the reliability of EVMs. You don't agree because it doesn't serve your ulterior personal motive.

You are as bad as any cunning devious neta. Your only problem is, you lack the followers. In fact you don't carry any appreciable weight among the "you commons" either.

BTW, I am monitoring your Orkut page. Till now, it has 6 members. Let us see how many sign up.

[Dileep]

Anything that goes into the polling process needs to satisfy a lot of requirements, considering the vast spread of the country, and the various problems faced thereof.

1. Light and easily transportable.
2. No dependence on mains power
3. Rugged and reliable.
4. Easy to setup and use.
5. Should allow manual seals, stamps and other protection/traceability means.

[SRoy]

Mobile connectivity is universal. The camera can send still pix to server every 2 min, as good as real time for us.

Are we talking about India here? Do you have any clue about mobile connectivity in India? Heck your so-called mobile connectivity is not universal even in TFTA USA. And as for sending pix to server every 2 mins. - do you have any clue whatsoever about mobile data costs at the rate you are talking about?

Mobile coverage in India is pretty universal.

Notwithstanding your contribution in this thread, you are talking crap now.

[vera_k]

devices are NOT sold to non govt entities.

This is not true. The authors of the famous Princeton expose on the Accuvote-TS obtained their sample from a private party.

http://citp.princeton.edu/pub/ts06full.pdf

Using a committee to certify the machines are not a complete approach because -

a) Independents who by definition are not affiliated to political parties will have no reasons to trust the committee and

b) Certifications issued by a committee are valid at that point in time and are not guaranteed to be accurate in the face of innovations in hacking. The Indiresan committee's blind spot to trojans that do not need activation is an example of this.

[ArmenT]

devices are NOT sold to non govt entities.

This is not true. The authors of the famous Princeton expose on the Accuvote-TS obtained their sample from a private party.

http://citp.princeton.edu/pub/ts06full.pdf

Interesting that the Accuvote-TS also uses a Hitachi SuperH processor (SH7709A).

Weaknesses in the Accuvote TS:
1. Bootloader chip is an EPROM rather than a ROM chip, so it can be reprogrammed by anyone with a EPROM programmer.
2. Bootloader chip is not even soldered to the board. Instead, it is inserted into a socket. This makes it trivial for anyone to field replace the bootloader, by simply using a chip extractor tool (cost < $1) and a different preprogrammed EPROM chip. This can take around 10 seconds for even the most unskilled person, if they are told ahead of time where to look and what to do.
3. The voting application is stored in flash memory and the device itself comes with facilities to reprogram the flash memory.
4. The hardware allows booting from multiple sources, and the switch settings to do this are helpfully printed on the motherboard itself.
5. The machine has slots for adding external devices built in, just plug one in and you're ready to go.
6. Runs Windows CE
7. The built in bootloader software in the EPROM itself allows software to run from an external memory card, whose slot is on the motherboard.
8. Of course, to exploit all this, the attacker needs access to the inside of the machine. Access to the motherboard is controlled by a lock, unfortunately it is a cheap one that can be easily picked. This is the weakest link, along with the fact that this thing is very easy to reprogram.
9. Surprisingly, part of the procedure allows local officials to take the machine home with them at night.

So the biggest vulnerability is that an attacker can easily pick the lock on the side of an Accuvote, add their own software by plugging in a device to a connector that is already present on the motherboard and voila! To remove traces of their skullduggery, all they have to do is pick the lock again and pull their card out of the slot.

Some of the differences between the Accuvote-TS and EVM:
1. EVM has a ROM chip, not an EPROM, so it can't be replaced easily in the field
2. Verification needed to make sure that the ROM chip is indeed soldered on to the board on the EVM, so that it can't be easily field replaced. (Some one should ask EC about this)
3. No facility for multiple boot sources, as far as the official releases seem to indicate
4. All code is in the ROM chip, not flash memory. Thus, bogus firmware can't be easily installed.
5. Very simple app with no separate OS.
6. EC's process indicates that the machines are locked in a secure facility and all interested parties are allowed to add their own additional guards around the building to verify that no one is trying to tamper with the machines.

[Dileep]

Mobile coverage in India is pretty universal.

Notwithstanding your contribution in this thread, you are talking crap now.

Where do you live SRoy? Have you even visited a remote village?

I live in the state of Kerala, in the district that is the commercial center. I can show you many many places where polling booths exist, but no mobile coverage in my own district. If you move further east to the foothills and the ghats, it is still severe.

I have first hand experience in loosing mobile connectivity even on the NHs. That is with a dual sim phone with service from the two biggest providers in the state.

You can call RB crap. He doesn't live here. But I DO, and I KNOW that mobile coverage is not universal.

[Rahul Mehta]

I know how franking machines work. Their mechanism is different than what you propose. Anyway, it is not a viable solution for the vast operation of polling. The logistics to manufacture, service and maintain then is totally unviable.

The machine I propose is NOT the franking machine, but would look like franking machine.

1. The presiding officer will slide in the paper in stamping machine.
2. He will press button (no automatic stamp)
3. The stamp comes with six digit (increasing) random number
4. There is a 20 second delay
5. It has counter to show number of ballots stamped.

Instead of stamper, one can also use a sticker printer with 20 second delay. It prints a sticker when button is pressed. The sticker has two parts, each part having same six digit increasing random number. One part is stuck on the ballot paper, another is stuck on a sheet with presiding officer. The sticker printer has a counter which shows number of ballot stickers printed. So if anyone puts fake stickers, the count of ballots in box and count on sticker printer will mismatch.

====================

In US, even in Presidential elections, each State decides its own voting mechanism and EVM and some states leave it to the districts. So there are too many State/District authorities who examine EVM. So if a manufacturer has pre-tempered EVM, there will be too many authorities and people he will have to circumvent. In India, the number is just in tens. Also, in US punishments *will* happen if a manufacturer gives a pre-tempered EVM. In India, no judge ever imprisoned a biggie. So there is deterrent in US, there is none in India against making pre-tempered EVMs.

======

ArmenT,

The EVMs can be tempered out of factory. But we are discussing "what if" tempered code was inside EVM?

BEL made 100,000 EVMs in Dec-2008 (fact). Now consider following scenario :

Say 40000 were honest. And 60000 had this logic "increase the votes of second highest candidate by 600 votes". Now CEC Chawala sends tempered EVMs to some 300 seats where Congress is guaranteed to be no. 2 in most booths and guaranteed that it wont be No.1 or No. 3. There are many such seats in India. So in each of these 300 seats, say 200 EVMs with such logic arrive. They are randomly going to any booths in that seat. Now say in 50 cases, Congress was No. 1 in that booth and in 150 cases Congress was No. 2 . So in such scenario, EVM will add (150 * 600 - 50 * 600) = 60,000 extra votes to Congress. So out of those 300 seats, where it was guaranteed not to get even 20, Congress will get some 100-120 or more seats.

IOW, there are too many ways of writing a "pro-Congress code". How do we know that BEL or Hitachi did not put pro-Congress code in EVM?

[Rahul Mehta]

RB,

I am camera bhagat. And I have been camera bhagat since ages. And ever since I saw Tahelka, I have become a devout camera bhagat.

------------

... I KNOW that mobile coverage is not universal.

What % of voters (or booths) dont have mobile connectivity?

There may be remote areas, but they have much less population and so have less voters. So , in x% cases, camera will not have mobile connectivity and cant send pix to server every minute. In those x% cases, they will be stored and later uploaded on servers. This is hardly a speed breaker not a road blocker.

----

Anything that goes into the polling process needs to satisfy a lot of requirements, considering the vast spread of the country, and the various problems faced thereof.

1. Light and easily transportable.
2. No dependence on mains power
3. Rugged and reliable.
4. Easy to setup and use.
5. Should allow manual seals, stamps and other protection/traceability means.

And pls add following condition : Physically immune to built in tempering (not just human process, but physically immune).

And yes, if above is the case, paper + stamper (or sticker printer) + camera is better than EVM.

In EVM, there is NO stopping to presiding officer himself pressing button 100 times. Whereas camera reduces the chances of that.

[Dileep]

This is not true. The authors of the famous Princeton expose on the Accuvote-TS obtained their sample from a private party.

Obsolete and de-commissioned machines are sold in auction in USA, and they can end up with anyone. That is different from the primary source selling it.

Using a committee to certify the machines are not a complete approach because -

a) Independents who by definition are not affiliated to political parties will have no reasons to trust the committee

Our political system is a party based system. Parties are the stakeholders, whether you like it or not. A system that is approved by the parties is good enough.

b) Certifications issued by a committee are valid at that point in time and are not guaranteed to be accurate in the face of innovations in hacking. The Indiresan committee's blind spot to trojans that do not need activation is an example of this.

The committee is certifying the basic system is sound. Part of the 'soundness' is that the system should take care of itself in the long run.

For example, It can be suggested that the binary should be released electronically, with a published MD5/SHA hash, accessible to everyone involved, ie software team, software QA team, production team, testing team, and production QC team. It can also be required that testing staff should be rotated to have everyone involved etc.

[Raja Bose]

Mobile coverage in India is pretty universal.

Notwithstanding your contribution in this thread, you are talking crap now.

My dear sir, the company which is currently responsible for my paycheck also owns the entity which makes the cell towers India and most of the world uses to talk. So yes, I do know what kind of cell coverage India/China/US/EMEA have and how robust they are - and also becoz part of my work earlier involved taking into account the lack of robustness esp. in rural India. Kindly step out of our cities and take a look around. And coverage doesn't imply:
(1) 24/7 coverage
(2) High quality of coverage
(3) Cheap coverage (data cost)

[Raja Bose]

This thread suddenly has burst into life again...anyhow I need to go to the gym so will have to ignore the latest amusements here for the time being

[Dileep]

Great Job ArmenT!

Interesting that the Accuvote-TS also uses a Hitachi SuperH processor (SH7709A).

Weaknesses in the Accuvote TS:
1. Bootloader chip is an EPROM rather than a ROM chip, so it can be reprogrammed by anyone with a EPROM programmer.
2. Bootloader chip is not even soldered to the board. Instead, it is inserted into a socket. This makes it trivial for anyone to field replace the bootloader, by simply using a chip extractor tool (cost < $1) and a different preprogrammed EPROM chip. This can take around 10 seconds for even the most unskilled person, if they are told ahead of time where to look and what to do.
3. The voting application is stored in flash memory and the device itself comes with facilities to reprogram the flash memory.
4. The hardware allows booting from multiple sources, and the switch settings to do this are helpfully printed on the motherboard itself.
5. The machine has slots for adding external devices built in, just plug one in and you're ready to go.
6. Runs Windows CE
7. The built in bootloader software in the EPROM itself allows software to run from an external memory card, whose slot is on the motherboard.
8. Of course, to exploit all this, the attacker needs access to the inside of the machine. Access to the motherboard is controlled by a lock, unfortunately it is a cheap one that can be easily picked. This is the weakest link, along with the fact that this thing is very easy to reprogram.
9. Surprisingly, part of the procedure allows local officials to take the machine home with them at night.

So the biggest vulnerability is that an attacker can easily pick the lock on the side of an Accuvote, add their own software by plugging in a device to a connector that is already present on the motherboard and voila! To remove traces of their skullduggery, all they have to do is pick the lock again and pull their card out of the slot.

You would know that in the US, all systems place a lot of trust on people, which is unimaginable in India. For example, would it be possible to accept personal checks in shops here?

Some of the differences between the Accuvote-TS and EVM:
1. EVM has a ROM chip, not an EPROM, so it can't be replaced easily in the field
2. Verification needed to make sure that the ROM chip is indeed soldered on to the board on the EVM, so that it can't be easily field replaced. (Some one should ask EC about this)

Yes, BEL has specified that it is not only soldered, there is a tamper evident coating, so that if the chip is desoldered, it will leave a permanent mark on the board, which will indicate the fact.

[ArmenT]

ArmenT,

The EVMs can be tempered out of factory. But we are discussing "what if" tempered code was inside EVM?

BEL made 100,000 EVMs in Dec-2008 (fact). Now consider following scenario :

Say 40000 were honest. And 60000 had this logic "increase the votes of second highest candidate by 600 votes". Now CEC Chawala sends tempered EVMs to some 300 seats where Congress is guaranteed to be no. 2 in most booths and guaranteed that it wont be No.1 or No. 3. There are many such seats in India. So in each of these 300 seats, say 200 EVMs with such logic arrive. They are randomly going to any booths in that seat. Now say in 50 cases, Congress was No. 1 in that booth and in 150 cases Congress was No. 2 . So in such scenario, EVM will add (150 * 600 - 50 * 600) = 60,000 extra votes to Congress. So out of those 300 seats, where it was guaranteed not to get even 20, Congress will get some 100-120 or more seats.

IOW, there are too many ways of writing a "pro-Congress code". How do we know that BEL or Hitachi did not put pro-Congress code in EVM?

Doing this would require collusion with the programmers of two different public companies, the independent testing staff, the QA guys that validate that the code that came back indeed matches the stuff that was sent, Hitachi Inc., the Election commissioner and the chaps who actually pick the EVMs to send to different locations. Too many people involved if you ask me.

Frankly I think a fair amount of the anti-EVM junta's heartburn is mainly because they don't have the technical knowhow to tamper with an EVM. If it was a paper ballot, some anti-EVM chaps have a far better chance of rigging the vote. And don't say it isn't possible with paper ballots -- I have Bengali ancestry with strong Darbhanga Bihari roots and I know how the game's played.

[Raja Bose]

RB,

I am camera bhagat. And I have been camera bhagat since ages. And ever since I saw Tahelka, I have become a devout camera bhagat.

Did I hear this right?! RM is a technology bhakt and that too a camera bhakt! RM, do you know why camera evidence is considered dodgy by most courts? And do you know that in a world where your fancy hardware tampering ideas are trivial, tampering with a mass-produced camera is even more trivial.

What % of voters (or booths) dont have mobile connectivity?

Please read my post above re. what connectivity means. Even US does not have the level of mobile connectivity that your idea requires to perform robustly in the field.

In EVM, there is NO stopping to presiding officer himself pressing button 100 times. Whereas camera reduces the chances of that.

What happens when the camera itself is tampered? If you choose to suspect technology, unfortunately you cannot be selective about it

[Raja Bose]

Some of the differences between the Accuvote-TS and EVM:
1. EVM has a ROM chip, not an EPROM, so it can't be replaced easily in the field
2. Verification needed to make sure that the ROM chip is indeed soldered on to the board on the EVM, so that it can't be easily field replaced. (Some one should ask EC about this)
3. No facility for multiple boot sources, as far as the official releases seem to indicate
4. All code is in the ROM chip, not flash memory. Thus, bogus firmware can't be easily installed.
5. Very simple app with no separate OS.
6. EC's process indicates that the machines are locked in a secure facility and all interested parties are allowed to add their own additional guards around the building to verify that no one is trying to tamper with the machines.

ArmenT, very good summary. Thanks! The Accuvote-TS is like most of the US EVMs with full OSs and accompanying holes. The EVM hacked by Steven Checkoway is much more simpler (as per his email) but still has that insecure external interface which is what all the exploits are using.

(5) and (6) are the big differences between Indian EVMs and US and other TFTA EVMs. In case of Indian EVM, I would be fairly certain that the ROM is soldered in - however the question to ask will be if they add some tamper detection mechanisms (seals etc. on it).

[Raja Bose]

Yes, BEL has specified that it is not only soldered, there is a tamper evident coating, so that if the chip is desoldered, it will leave a permanent mark on the board, which will indicate the fact.

Oh! I see that Dileep has already answered my question.

[Raja Bose]

You can call RB crap. He doesn't live here. But I DO, and I KNOW that mobile coverage is not universal.

Fortunately (or unfortunately) I know more about the mobile coverage in India that most people in India themselves (what to do, used to be part of job onlee) - what RM is proposing is just another of his elitist dreams borne out of sipping fresh lime soda in his air conditioned S-Class Mercedes Benz.

[vera_k]

Our political system is a party based system. Parties are the stakeholders, whether you like it or not. A system that is approved by the parties is good enough.

Haven't you heard the theory of "All Politicians Are To Blame"? What is to stop the parties from colluding to keep the status quo going?

[sanjaychoudhry]

Now, EC has rejected the proposal to have paper printouts of ballots or any kind of paper trail to cross check the results of EVMs. Things have really begun to stink the way these EC jokers -- all paid Congress courtiers -- are trying to put a veil of secrecy over their working.

Mumbai, Aug 13 (PTI) In the backdrop of allegations by certain political parties that Electronic Voting Machines (EVMs) could be hacked, the Election Commission today said EVMs were and are tamper proof.

"In the view of the Election Commission, EVMs were and are tamper proof. Nobody has been able to demonstrate that they can be tampered with," Chief Election Commissioner Naveen Chawla told reporters here.

On the demand by some parties for paper printouts of ballots, Chawla said "we believe a paper trail would foil the essence of democracy, which is secrecy of individual ballot, and it would be seriously compromised."

"The whole purpose of democracy is that individuals' preference must be secret and it is the whole pillar of free, fair and transparent election process," he said.
http://www.ptinews.com/news/228283_EVMs ... Commission

So now the demand to have any kind of paper trail of EVMs has been declared unconstitutional!

[Rahul Mehta]

Our political system is a party based system. Parties are the stakeholders, whether you like it or not. A system that is approved by the parties is good enough.

Inside Constitution, the word political party is used ONLY in context of Anti-Defection law. Except this, the Constitution makes no important mention of the word "Party". There is no law in India to regulate inner party functioning. Party are not unconstitutional, but are non-Constitutional entities. India's laws allow Independent candidates which proves that Parties dont have exclusive rights over polity.

And we commons, 71 cr voters, own India. Not some parties with corruption written all over their every MPs' faces. The final decision on EVM vs Paper issue has to be taken by commons and no one else. The EC, SCjs, Parties etc are welcome to take intermediate decisions as they may please.

---------------------

1. [putting tempering code] Doing this would require collusion with the programmers of two different public companies, the independent testing staff, the QA guys that validate that the code that came back indeed matches the stuff that was sent, Hitachi Inc.,

2. the Election commissioner and the chaps who actually pick the EVMs to send to different locations. Too many people involved if you ask me.

1. It does need co-operation of programmers BEL. The top guy in BEL can leak the code to some expert owned by Congress. He can write the pro-Congress code and give to Hitachi CEO who will ask the chip making unit to put the tempered code instead of real code. In general, it may not be possible, but India's budget is Rs 600,000 cr and if 1% of that used for this covert operation, it can be done. Now when chip come to BEL, the BEL CEO has to ensure that the persons in charge of randomly selecting the chip will select only the chips with untempered code. So inside BEL, BEL CEO has to manage only 2-3 people.

2

2a. The Hitachi CEO can ensure that first 40000 chips are good and next 60000 are bad. The BEL CEO has to ensure that first 40000 EVMs use only good chips and next 60000 chips use bad chips.

2b. CEC Chawala will order the staff that send first 40000 Seat No.1 to Seat No. 200 and send next 60000 to Seat 201 to Seat 500. Thus, chosen 300 seats get all bad EVMs. IOW, inside Election Commissioner, I need ONLY 3 top guys to ensure favorable placement.

So with 10-12 guys in India, 2-3 expert coders be inside India or outside India and 3-4 top people in Hitachi, Congress can add 100-150 seats to UPA tally.

-------------------------

Frankly I think a fair amount of the anti-EVM junta's heartburn is mainly because they don't have the technical knowhow to tamper with an EVM. If it was a paper ballot, some anti-EVM chaps have a far better chance of rigging the vote. And don't say it isn't possible with paper ballots -- I have Bengali ancestry with strong Darbhanga Bihari roots and I know how the game's played.

As far as booth capture goes, EVM creates 20 second delay and nothing more. Rest other factors are SAME. The 20 second delay can be created by a sticker printer too. And with camera, it because further impossible.

[Rahul Mehta]

Now, EC has rejected the proposal to have paper printouts of ballots or any kind of paper trail to cross check the results of EVMs. Things have really begun to stink the way these EC jokers -- all paid Congress courtiers -- are trying to put a veil of secrecy over their working. .... So now the demand to have any kind of paper trail of EVMs has been declared unconstitutional!

Thats because paper trail would PROVE that rigging happened. And look at this total !@#$%^&*() Chawala. HowTH does paper violate privacy?

Can an expert here rise and pull the collars of Chawala and tell him that paper trail does not violate secrecy? Or are you guys willing to accept this lie because it supports paper-less EVMs?

---

In US, many law-makers want a law of paper train, and compulsory 3% check of randomly chosen EVMs immediately after counting. Chawala hates this as this will stop Congress from manipulating EVMs in future. The paper trail demand shows that EVMs are riggable and paper is indispensable. I support paper trail, as that is gracious way of killing EVMs and bringing paper back. Once paper trail comes, it will be clear that paper trail is enough and there is no need for the EVMs.

[Rahul Mehta]

Dileep, RB, ArmenT, all anti-paper folks,

A sticker printer with built in counter and a 20 second delay is sufficient to create 20 second delay and stop "stuffing 200 ballots in 5 minutes".

So now can you explain how existing EVM is any better than sticker printer?

---------

Attn All,

If I want to make a following device, how much would it cost?

1. It prints a logo on paper tape (with sticker) and a serial number twice after officer presses "print" button.

2. The LED display shows counter

3. The number it prints should be (1 + a two digit random number) more than previous number.

4. Battery to print 2000 * 2 = 4000 labels

5. Impose 20 second delay between two label printing.

6. On-off buttons

7. Remembers all the numbers it generated and prints all these numbers once again when "Print All" button is pressed.

Start with cheapest printers such as dot matrix printers or thermal printers (ink should stay for 30 days). Pls add cost of cartridge.

Thanks for providing the cost estimate in advance.

[Dileep]

You can call RB crap. He doesn't live here. But I DO, and I KNOW that mobile coverage is not universal.

Fortunately (or unfortunately) I know more about the mobile coverage in India that most people in India themselves (what to do, used to be part of job onlee) - what RM is proposing is just another of his elitist dreams borne out of sipping fresh lime soda in his air conditioned S-Class Mercedes Benz.

Apologies Bose Boss. Had no clue.

My knowledge of cell coverage is very limited, but I do know that it is not reliable near my rubber land, and at many places during the 60 km drive over NH.

[Dileep]

Haven't you heard the theory of "All Politicians Are To Blame"? What is to stop the parties from colluding to keep the status quo going?

Well, we got to live with that. IMK there is no functional democracy exists on earth without multiple parties.

We vote parties. The legislature and government are run based on party policy. It is all open and kosher. If we pretend that it is not so, that would be hypocrisy.

[Dileep]

Now, EC has rejected the proposal to have paper printouts of ballots or any kind of paper trail to cross check the results of EVMs. Things have really begun to stink the way these EC jokers -- all paid Congress courtiers -- are trying to put a veil of secrecy over their working.
So now the demand to have any kind of paper trail of EVMs has been declared unconstitutional!

A paper trail, traceable to the individual voter is not desirable.

I have proposed a punched tape system, where the tape remains sealed within the BU. The only problem with that is, it makes the machine a bit complex.

[harbans]

A paper trail, traceable to the individual voter is not desirable.

Precisely. I felt the same way. Imagine goons going into houses and demanding the reciept for proof of who the voted for. Absolutely undesirable.

[Dileep]

Inside Constitution, the word political party is used ONLY in context of Anti-Defection law. Except this, the Constitution makes no important mention of the word "Party". There is no law in India to regulate inner party functioning. Party are not unconstitutional, but are non-Constitutional entities. India's laws allow Independent candidates which proves that Parties dont have exclusive rights over polity.

What does the anti-defection law say? Changing the party under which someone got elected will nullify the election. It is crystal clear that it is the Party that matters, not the person. If it was otherwise, this clause wouldn't have been there.

There are laws of inner functioning of a party, if they want to get/retain registration with EC.

If you work for a cause ALONE, you are independent. When another person joins you on the cause, the collective becomes a party. You may not be a registered one, or even an organized one. But you still are a party.

And we commons, 71 cr voters, own India.

No. "You commons" of less than 1 crore don't own India. The "pothu jaman", who are not well born, not IIT/Rutgers educated, not having 1Cr assets, not having internet access or cell coverage, THEY own India.

You are a NOBODY. You don't have anybody's mandate to represent them. You make up stuff for the advancement of your ulterior motives only. You have no care about the "pothu janam". You are interested in "you commons", and the snobbish life you have.

Not some parties with corruption written all over their every MPs' faces. The final decision on EVM vs Paper issue has to be taken by commons and no one else. The EC, SCjs, Parties etc are welcome to take intermediate decisions as they may please.

No. Not by "you commons", who propose use of mobile technology, completely ignoring the millions who live beyond that. When raised, you claim that their votes don't matter.

You disowned them, sir. Well, you never represented them to begin with. You have no identification with the 70 crore "pothu janam". You have no claim to represent them.

The parties do. At least they got the votes. What do you have?

1. It does need co-operation of programmers BEL. The top guy in BEL can leak the code to some expert owned by Congress. He can write the pro-Congress code and give to Hitachi CEO who will ask the chip making unit to put the tempered code instead of real code. In general, it may not be possible, but India's budget is Rs 600,000 cr and if 1% of that used for this covert operation, it can be done. Now when chip come to BEL, the BEL CEO has to ensure that the persons in charge of randomly selecting the chip will select only the chips with untempered code. So inside BEL, BEL CEO has to manage only 2-3 people.

2a. The Hitachi CEO can ensure that first 40000 chips are good and next 60000 are bad. The BEL CEO has to ensure that first 40000 EVMs use only good chips and next 60000 chips use bad chips.

2b. CEC Chawala will order the staff that send first 40000 Seat No.1 to Seat No. 200 and send next 60000 to Seat 201 to Seat 500. Thus, chosen 300 seats get all bad EVMs. IOW, inside Election Commissioner, I need ONLY 3 top guys to ensure favorable placement.

So with 10-12 guys in India, 2-3 expert coders be inside India or outside India and 3-4 top people in Hitachi, Congress can add 100-150 seats to UPA tally

"The incredible machine again". A lot of things and a lot of people, all perfectly choreographed to perform something, without any leaks.

Rahul, it ain't funny anymore!!

Only in RahulWorld!!

As far as booth capture goes, EVM creates 20 second delay and nothing more. Rest other factors are SAME. The 20 second delay can be created by a sticker printer too. And with camera, it because further impossible.

No, it is not just 20 Second delay. It is the enabling by the PO. It is the keypress being the only means of vote. It is the facility to close the poll any time by PO. None of them can be done by paper.

Even your stamping machine's timer can be easily byepassed, since it is a mechanical machine.

[Dileep]

Thats because paper trail would PROVE that rigging happened. And look at this total !@#$%^&*() Chawala. HowTH does paper violate privacy?

The proposal was for the machine to print a copy of the vote for the voter to take away. That violates privacy. Even dropping the paper in a box violates privacy, unless it is those papers that gets counted.

The punched paper tape might solve this, but that will make the machine complicated and failure prone.

Can an expert here rise and pull the collars of Chawala and tell him that paper trail does not violate secrecy? Or are you guys willing to accept this lie because it supports paper-less EVMs?

Paper trail as proposed DOES violate privacy, and hence can't be allowed.

In US, many law-makers want a law of paper train, and compulsory 3% check of randomly chosen EVMs immediately after counting.

That is because the EVMs used in USA are field riggable.

Chawala hates this as this will stop Congress from manipulating EVMs in future.

Did he tell you that?

The paper trail demand shows that EVMs are riggable and paper is indispensable.

That is LAHORI logic. How can a demand by someone PROVE something? I can demand that you pay me Rs 50,000 for defamation. Does that show that you actually did defame me?

I support paper trail, as that is gracious way of killing EVMs and bringing paper back. Once paper trail comes, it will be clear that paper trail is enough and there is no need for the EVMs.

Do you even KNOW what is the concept of paper trail?

State your concept of paper trail here, as you understand it. We will discuss it then.

[Dileep]

Dileep, RB, ArmenT, all anti-paper folks,

A sticker printer with built in counter and a 20 second delay is sufficient to create 20 second delay and stop "stuffing 200 ballots in 5 minutes".

So now can you explain how existing EVM is any better than sticker printer?

Oh, all the possibilities of defeating the stickers, the logistical advantages of electronic voting in comparison with the paper ballots itself is reason enough to use EVMs.

[sanjaychoudhry]

What has been suggested to EC is for the EVM to print a small ballot (the size of a postage stamp) with no time stamp that carries the symbol of the chosen party. It has to be dropped into a ballot box placed next to the EVM. That is all. When there is a dispute, the paper ballots will be counted to crosscheck the results of EVM. IIRC, this is already in operation in some countries. The ballot can be printed on thermal paper, much like credit card reciepts are printed. What exactly is the problem with this arrangement?

The fanaticism with which EVMs are being promoted by EC, brushing aside protests of every non-Congress party, is quite suspicious. Is this a democracy or is it a Congress-cracy? How come views of all non-Congress parties are being treated as a nuisance that has to be over-ruled?

What is this fetish with EVMs, keeping their working secret, refusing to share their source code and rejecting any kind of paper verification of electronic votes. This attitude stinks to high heavens, especially when EVMs are being rejected by the "advanced" Western countries one after the other.

EVM is being projected as the next best thing since sliced bread. Well, democracy is being practised in this world since the last 4000 years. Earlier, people used to raise hands to elect. Then they began to stamp papers. It is not as if demorcracy will die without computer chips.

For a democratic voting system to be successful, it has to be acceptable to all the stakeholders. Currently, EVMs are acceptable only to the Congress, not to any other party in India. What happened to the famed "consensus" by which democracy is possible? It is amazing how only the wish of the ruling party is being taken into account despit serious allegations that EVMs have delberately been introduced to benefit the ruling party. This has turned into a cuckooland scenario. "How the votes are cast" is less important than the fact that the method of voting has to be acceptable to all the contestants. Here you are doing the reverse -- you are making "how votes are cast" the holy grail of democracy. The holy grail of democracy is consensus among stakeholders, not EVMs.

What the Congress courtiers are not saying is that without EVMs, they have no chance of winning again. The tide in India has begun to shift from mindless anti-Hinduism and secularism of the last 50 years to where Hindus are becoming politically aware. EVMs are the straw that the Congress courtiers are now clutching. If there is no vote fraud, Congress is facing extinction.

Rather than concentrating on individual elections, you have to consider the U-turn that India's politics is slowly taking toward Hindu consolidation and pride. The Congress courtiers have smelled this and are furiously trying every trick in the black book to hang on to power. They are not above allying with foreign agencies to keep Hindu nationalists at bay. It is widely known that Congress courtiers lobbied agressively with the US embassy in Delhi to deny Modi a visa.

[Dileep]

What has been suggested to EC is for the EVM to print a small ballot (the size of a postage stamp) with no time stamp that carries the symbol of the chosen party. It has to be dropped into a ballot box placed next to the EVM. That is all. When there is a dispute, the paper ballots will be counted to crosscheck the results of EVM. IIRC, this is already in operation in some countries. The ballot can be printed on thermal paper, much like credit card reciepts are printed. What exactly is the problem with this arrangement?

Do you have a link to this proposal? Because IIRC, the proposals I was were for a receipt or similar.

The only privacy problem with this proposal is that the goonda might ask a voter to produce the "proof of vote" under threats. Since the vote is already cast on the machine, the PO can not really enforce putting the slip into the box. This might seem to be a trivial matter, but it sure is serious from a privacy POV.

The fanaticism with which EVMs are being promoted by EC, brushing aside protests of every non-Congress party, is quite suspicious. Is this a democracy or is it a Congress-cracy? How come views of all non-Congress parties are being treated as a nuisance that has to be over-ruled?

That is a heavily biased viewpoint.

What is this fetish with EVMs, keeping their working secret, refusing to share their source code and rejecting any kind of paper verification of electronic votes. This attitude stinks to high heavens, especially when EVMs are being rejected by the "advanced" Western countries one after the other.

The EVMs has simplified, streamlined and made more secure the elections. The reasons for the western countries rejecting them is already given.

EVM is being projected as the next best thing since sliced bread.

Any link to the sliced bread reference would be gratly appreciated.

Well, democracy is being practised in this world since the last 4000 years. Earlier, people used to raise hands to elect. Then they began to stamp papers. It is not as if demorcracy will die without computer chips.

Your question have the answer too right? Otherwise, we should still have been raising hands!

For a democratic voting system to be successful, it has to be acceptable to all the stakeholders.

Absolutely. The EVM should be acceptable to all recognized parties, and it is the responsibility of EC to make sure of that.

Currently, EVMs are acceptable only to the Congress, not to any other party in India.

Wrong. What I see is that the BJP is pretty much the only party that cries foul. I can understand that. Post a list of parties that protest.

What happened to the famed "consensus" by which democracy is possible? It is amazing how only the wish of the ruling party is being taken into account despit serious allegations that EVMs have delberately been introduced to benefit the ruling party.

BJP was in power in between didn't they?

This has turned into a cuckooland scenario.

More of the Foxland IMO, the "sour grapes" kind.

"How the votes are cast" is less important than the fact that the method of voting has to be acceptable to all the contestants. Here you are doing the reverse -- you are making "how votes are cast" the holy grail of democracy. The holy grail of democracy is consensus among stakeholders, not EVMs.

No doubt about it. The BJP should put forward valid technical objections, rather than going after the half cooked claims by some pseudo-techie. For that matter, what good old Rahul Mehta brings up is pretty decent material.

What the Congress courtiers are not saying is that without EVMs, they have no chance of winning again. The tide in India has begun to shift from mindless anti-Hinduism and secularism of the last 50 years to where Hindus are becoming politically aware. EVMs are the straw that the Congress courtiers are now clutching. If there is no vote fraud, Congress is facing extinction.

Yup!! India Shining Onlee!!

Rather than concentrating on individual elections, you have to consider the U-turn that India's politics is slowly taking toward Hindu consolidation and pride. The Congress courtiers have smelled this and are furiously trying every trick in the black book to hang on to power. They are not above allying with foreign agencies to keep Hindu nationalists at bay. It is widely known that Congress courtiers lobbied agressively with the US embassy in Delhi to deny Modi a visa.

If your party believes about the U turns and hindu consolidation, and work from that belief, your party won't make any progress for sure, EVM or no EVM.

IMHO, the platform of Hindu consolidation and pride is not going to take BJP much further.

But that is OT for this thread.

[ArmenT]

So with 10-12 guys in India, 2-3 expert coders be inside India or outside India and 3-4 top people in Hitachi, Congress can add 100-150 seats to UPA tally.

I notice you've completely omitted the verification guys and the QA guys from your list, and also the fact that the code is done by two independent teams, which puts a huge damper on to your theory. And why is Hitachi involved in this anyway, they only burn what the customer sent them to the ROM chips. If the customer sends them "tempered code", they don't care about it -- they just manufacture what the customer sent them.

You keep claiming you only need 10-12 guys. So far you have have not posted any method of how you can use 10-12 guys and get away with it. You've had holes poked through your theories time and time again, so why should anyone believe you now? Incidentally, why not take out a full-page ad detailing your theories in a national paper? Afraid of getting sued for libel by Chawla??

[Rahul Mehta]

So with 10-12 guys in India, 2-3 expert coders be inside India or outside India and 3-4 top people in Hitachi, Congress can add 100-150 seats to UPA tally.

I notice you've completely omitted the verification guys and the QA guys from your list, and also the fact that the code is done by two independent teams, which puts a huge damper on to your theory. And why is Hitachi involved in this anyway, they only burn what the customer sent them to the ROM chips. If the customer sends them "tempered code", they don't care about it -- they just manufacture what the customer sent them.

The QA is not involved. The QA is only testing the actual code and not the tempered code. The BEL chief takes the actual code and gives to 2-3 private expert who write the tempered code. So QA did not verify/test or see the tempered code at all. Also, in Dec-2008, the 100,000 EVMs were made by BEL only and present discussion is mainly around those EVMs. So thye other PSU is out of pix for the time being.

Hitachi is invovled because the official request will have untempered code while the unofficial request from BEL CEO will be to put the tempered code sent separately.


----

You keep claiming you only need 10-12 guys. So far you have have not posted any method of how you can use 10-12 guys and get away with it. You've had holes poked through your theories time and time again, so why should anyone believe you now? Incidentally, why not take out a full-page ad detailing your theories in a national paper? Afraid of getting sued for libel by Chawla?

http://rahulmehta.com/evm1.pdf

I did post an advertisement in IE on Jul-31-2009, page 3 all Indian editions. Got some response. Now I am trying to build a public movement to kill EVMs rashly by directly bribing paper back or kill EVMs in a graceful way - by putting paper trail.

No one has poked holes. Dileep etc have merely claimed that BEL CEO will never sell out, Hitachi CEO will not sell out and Chawala will not sell out. IOW, they have only claimed that tempered code can never ever get into EVM factory in BEL/Hitachi as some law of physics would stop them.

[Rahul Mehta]

As far as booth capture goes, EVM creates 20 second delay and nothing more. Rest other factors are SAME. The 20 second delay can be created by a sticker printer too. And with camera, it because further impossible.

No, it is not just 20 Second delay. It is the enabling by the PO. It is the keypress being the only means of vote. It is the facility to close the poll any time by PO. None of them can be done by paper.

Even your stamping machine's timer can be easily byepassed, since it is a mechanical machine.

The ballot is valid ONLY if it has presiding officer's signature. The PO used to make excuse that booth capturer used to force them to sign ballots.

The stamping machine or stiocker has COUNTER which increases only once in 20 seconds.How will criminal increase counter? So if ballots in box and counter mismatch by say over 1% and 10 votes, there is automatic repoll. So booth capturer looses.

Come to point. The EVM add NOTHING except 20 second delay. If criminal can hijack booth, he can also press the button that PO is supposed to press.