India-China News and Discussion

[Bade]

the ideal counter attack area is supposed to be through sikkim.

I have pictorial evidence that in Sikkim, PRC goons are right across the border, so close that one can shake hands with them. So it will be all hand to hand fight all the way through the finger region if it comes to that. Their bunkers are really close.

Thus the Chinese will end up with an unsustainable supply line to Arunachal, but with a terribly weakend strategic posture, with the TSP link gone, Gwadar gone and Nepal gone.

What are the chances for India gobbling up Nepal, now that it is a democracy so to speak and more common interests than with B'desh as of now at least. With B'desh sticking out like that over the Northeast is a real big security risk for India even more than Pakistan. The job in the north-east looks so far away from being done from the Indian point of view.

[jaladipc]

If there is a Chinese thrust in the NE, India should try to hold the line there, but attack all out in the POK area and cut off the PRC-TSP link, then take out the Chinese installations at the south of Myanmar and cut off all oil shipping to China until the PLA withdraws from both Arunachal and Greater Arunachal (aka Tibet). The war in POK will lead to Paki antics, which should then be used to wipe out Gwadar facilities. Also use the opportunity to knock out the Marxist regime in Nepal.

Thus the Chinese will end up with an unsustainable supply line to Arunachal, but with a terribly weakend strategic posture, with the TSP link gone, Gwadar gone and Nepal gone.

The known Chinese strategic reserves are over 125 million barrels of refined oil for automobiles,means ready for usage.And 10-20 million barrels of aviation fuel apart from 200 million barrels of crude oil which was stored in the underground storage facilities.( this is 2008 year end report)

It means even if the war is escalated into a fully blown out conventional,we are the ones who will be out of fuel and running to gulf or haggling the local producers for oil.

A blockade of chinese supplies in the arabian gulf will do less to china in terms of its war fighting .On a one-one fight we will be out of resources first if all the forces are applied .
china wont venture into IOR untill its slaves both paki and bangla take losses and keeps a part of IN fleet engaged.Hence we can only apply a part of Army while other part being help in engaging Pakis.Same goes with IAF.A war with china next time is like a trilateral war,Unless India takes some bold steps in dealing with pakis.

War on the western front has to be ended in no more than 2 days(being highly confident that pak wont dare to use its nukes under US pressure)and sanitizing operation has to start while the rest of the forces relieved in western front can do a backup job on the eastern side.It takes a min of 2 days for china to move a significant amount of its troops from its eastern coasts where majority part is concentrated.

But there is a lot of uncertainty that both china and India throwing nukes at each other.

In a pure conventional war on north-east, we can keep moving ahead on the tibet apart from holding down our positions and fortifying them.since tibet is a highly fortified landmass as compared to Indian side ,we better take defensive positions rather than offensive on north-east.

The moment when whole pak looses on its mainland and in Kashmir,China will definitely take the pressure and if the war still continues a world pressure will mount of both giants ending up the war,with both LAC and LOC lines moved in India`s favor.

[RajeshA]

We should concentrate on some key strategic victories, without losing any land.

As N³ pointed out, PoK and Gwadar are two such victories.

In Nepal, India needs to start with a massive Hinduisation drive as a counter to Maoism gaining ground. Hinduisation Drive should be well-financed and should include providing medical check-ups and medical treatment for the Nepalese. We have been left behind in the fight for hearts and minds.

Nepalese who have been working in India can also be drafted into this.

[Rahul M]

I have pictorial evidence that in Sikkim, PRC goons are right across the border, so close that one can shake hands with them. So it will be all hand to hand fight all the way through the finger region if it comes to that. Their bunkers are really close.

nathu la pass.

[enqyoob]

I hate 2 b the bringer of bad news on these things, but.... IMO, in any conflict, PRC will unhesitatingly use tactical battlefield nukes. Esp. true in mountain areas where the blast can be kept inside a valley.

I doubt very much whether India has enough to retaliate in such a case, and will definitely not be the first to escalate to strategic exchange.

PRC-Russia standoff is supposed to be a happy dance of thousands of tactical nukes. These are not counted in any of these "warhead reduction" tamashas.

IIRC, there is a strong suspicion that such weapons may have been used already in the Ussuri River pleasantries.

So, all talk of massive counter-attacks into the Tibet plateau, even if India could get that many troops up the mountains from the Indian side, is rather pointless.

[sanjaykumar]

IIRC, there is a strong suspicion that such weapons may have been used already in the Ussuri River pleasantries.

Not at all, USSR gave hints that it was prepared to wipe out Chinese nuclear forces. They in fact transfered the commander of west facing strategic rocket forces to the China facing districts. Poor China, if it ain't MacArthur, it is them pesky Russians threatening them with nukes.

[John Snow]

It might be instructive to dust off and thumb through

Himalian Blunder Brig JP Dalvi
The Untold Story Lt. Gen BM Kaul
India's China War by Max Villian
and other books on NEFA Operations

[sanjaychoudhry]

"India's China War" by Neville Maxwell is avalable online. It was banned in India.
{And rightfully so. ppl can find it if they feel compelled to .. I suggest we don't make anti-Indian propaganda available any easier. As I understand, Maxwell's account is 400% pro-commie, anti-Indian lies, and that's why it was banned in India.}

[SSridhar]

Does Beijing really want to break-up India ?

[enqyoob]

Understandably, the PRC's mouthpiece (or other opening) in Chennai must declare that the PRC has only the kindest and most peaceful intent towards India.

[suryag]

If at all Chicoms open a front in the Arunachal Pradesh Sector cant we not open two eastern fronts with one front's being offensive with thrust towards Lhasa through the kulong chu wildlife sanctuary(bhutan) towards Lhasa and one defensive front to face the onslaught of AP. The front through Bhutan can help us maintain a pincer pattern and the Chinese troops run the risk of having their supply lines cut. In addition, to this to keep the Chinese occupied can we open one front from out of Himachal Pradesh to cut off G 219 so that Aksai Chin is starved and not defendable anymore. Ofcourse, FWIW, I frankly do not know the terrain or any practical difficulty just couldnt control the itch to be an Arm Chair Havildar.

[John Snow]

India's China War by Max Villian

Tsk Tsk I thought elite of the BRF would easily get the meaning of it.

Here is why I called him Max Villian.

Neville Maxwell (b. 1926) is a British journalist.

Born in London, Maxwell was educated at McGill University and Cambridge University. He joined The Times as a foreign correspondent in 1955 and spent three years in the Washington bureau. In 1959 he was posted to New Delhi as South Asia correspondent. In the next eight years he traveled from Kabul to East Pakistan and Katmandu to Ceylon, reporting in detail the end of the Nehru era in India and the post-Nehru developments. In 1967 he went as a senior fellow to the School of Oriental and African Studies in London in order to write India's China War. He was with the Institute of Commonwealth Studies at Oxford University at the time when his work India's China War was published in 1971.

In a Rediff Special "Remembering a War", the editorial wrote: "No account of the 1962 war (between India and China) would be complete without Neville Maxwell's authoritative analysis."

While serving as South Asia correspondent in The Times, Maxwell authored a series of pessimistic reports filed in February 1967. In the atmosphere leading up to the 4th Lok Sabha elections, he wrote that "The great experiment of developing India within a democratic framework has failed. [Indians will soon vote] in the fourth—and surely last—general election." An article written in The Guardian in the weeks prior to the election provided a contrary view, noting that "the Delhi correspondent of a British newspaper whose thundering misjudgments in foreign affairs have become a byword has expressed the view that Indian democracy is disintegrating.

A true British BAS%^ as good as they come.

[csharma]

KS has talked about Chinese vulnerabilities.

Unlike in 1962, China has today
multiple vulnerabilities and has to consider seriously the effect of
a war on its energy supply lines. In such circumstances mutual
cooperation is to the benefit of both countries.

If India gets technological edge in weapons, Chinese dreams of being sole superpower in Asia will come to naught.

[csharma]

With opinions (or dreams) like that about Indian democracy, Neville whatever can hardly be expected to be a neutral observer. Probably a man too pained by the loss of the empire.

I had a Brit manager in my office. Very derisive towards Indias. One time he asked me how the hell did the Indians make an atom bomb.

[sanjaykumar]

Neville's opinions are like a$$holes, every one has one; only his is an imperforate one.

[Ben Thomas]

To our Chinese guests: please do not try to compare China with India.
It is morally wrong!
China and India have different history, philosophy and value system though both are ancient cultures.

India is more than a nation. India stands for Dharma just as US stands for Freedom. The political boundaries
of India have changed many times but as people we still have the same values and beliefs :
That Truth will always prevail over what is UnTruth/Wrong.

This was established 5000 years ago in the battle fields of Kurukshetra and is repeated every day in our daily lives and through the cycle of Time. To a Westerner - India means land of Sadhus, religion and spirituality.

China on the other hand is a stark materialistic country ruled by hypocrite Communists.
Its history is riddled with internal wars: no wonder most of your artifacts and monuments are somehow connected to
martial arts.

If China has a soul, I for one would love to know what it is.

Dynasties come and go, nations rise and fall.. and china will have its turn (as has happened so many times in the past).

[svinayak]

I had a Brit manager in my office. Very derisive towards Indias. One time he asked me how the hell did the Indians make an atom bomb.

Can you recall which year he said

[csharma]

I had a Brit manager in my office. Very derisive towards Indias. One time he asked me how the hell did the Indians make an atom bomb.

Can you recall which year he said

Around 1999-2000.

I must add there were younger Brits as well who knew about the potential of India and were aware of India as a rising power.

[Yogi_G]

I had a Brit manager in my office. Very derisive towards Indias. One time he asked me how the hell did the Indians make an atom bomb.

Sorry for the OT. I had a Scottish Manager. My project's architect was Chinese (victim of cultural revolution siberian border mines who fled to US and managed to bring in his family later on in 80s. He codes even now in his late 60s) When not discussing project work it would always be about politics and the Chinese would with a grudgeful voice regret as to how financial reforms came into China but not political reforms. He kept saying that China should emulate India in this front with the Scot nodding his head all the time. The respect for the freedoms in India can be seen very easily.

[RayC]

I have pictorial evidence that in Sikkim, PRC goons are right across the border, so close that one can shake hands with them. So it will be all hand to hand fight all the way through the finger region if it comes to that. Their bunkers are really close.

Bade,

Could you post them?

I did not see them when I was there. It was my beat!

A new development I presume!

[Liu]

RAND now claims ROCAF likely to lose air war with PLAAF (PDF link)

wasn't sure whether to put this under psy-ops, so I posted it here

This is psy-ops indeed, but it goes much further. The Chinese have managed to build a sense of inevitability in the public mind about their eventual global dominance. On a recent trip to Taiwan, I found many who were earlier quite vocal for the need for freedom and democracy now reconciled to the need to accept Chinese-style dictatorship as the necessary price to pay for economic progress (or even survival). I put to them that the world was witnessing a great experiment assessing the sustainability (and poverty-alleviation capacities) of two alternative forms of governance: a liberal democracy (India) on the one hand, and a brutal, immoral dictatorship (China) on the other. The fact that India could be viewed as a competitor to China did not even begin to enter the world-view of the average Taiwanese.

India needs to be pro-active in projecting itself in popular discourse in East Asia. There is no doubt that our soft power is growing. In Taiwan, there is growing positive sentiment about India. Bollywood is a key driver. "Tare Zameen Par" was being shown in the remote eastern Taiwanese town of Ilan. Yoga is hugely popular. There is a recognition that India is perhaps no longer the cesspool that it was previously veiwed as. But India as global power that might supplant China is a proposition that is still too alien.

We need to capitalize on our soft power, and insert ourselve more pro-actively into public discourse in these places.

well, in fact , in the world-view of most east asian people, India is a example how "unmature democracy" becomes the barrier of economy development.

[kidoman]

well, in fact , in the world-view of most east asian people, India is a example how "unmature democracy" becomes the barrier of economy development.

Ohhh..is it???
Actually in the eyes of "Most World People", China is an example how in Modern day also Dictatorism prevails.

[rkirankr]

Liu wrote

well, in fact , in the world-view of most east asian people, India is a example how "unmature democracy" becomes the barrier of economy development.

Oh, have you done a survey. Can you publish the link? Or just Kite flying like china's claim over Tibet?
Well Liu when we got Independence,most of the western powers thought we will be split in say 10 or 20 years but pakistan would become a progressive and powerful nation. Look around and understand.
And it is democracy which is now ushering in economic development. Problems are galore but obviously we will not have tanks running over us as it happened in our eastern neighbourhood 20 years back

[Liu]

Liu wrote

well, in fact , in the world-view of most east asian people, India is a example how "unmature democracy" becomes the barrier of economy development.

Oh, have you done a survey. Can you publish the link? Or just Kite flying like china's claim over Tibet?
Well Liu when we got Independence,most of the western powers thought we will be split in say 10 or 20 years but pakistan would become a progressive and powerful nation. Look around and understand.
And it is democracy which is now ushering in economic development. Problems are galore but obviously we will not have tanks running over us as it happened in our eastern neighbourhood 20 years back

well ,
no offence!
if you could read chinese, you would find how amusing india's imagation is in CHina.

put to them that the world was witnessing a great experiment assessing the sustainability (and poverty-alleviation capacities) of two alternative forms of governance: a liberal democracy (India) on the one hand, and a brutal, immoral dictatorship (China) on the other. The fact that India could be viewed as a competitor to China did not even begin to enter the world-view of the average Taiwanese.

well, if the quoted were to be translated into chinese and posted on Chinese forum, it would be a laugh stock among chinese.

[harbans]

well ,if you could read chinese, you would find how amusing india's imagation is in CHina.

Can you translate a few examples for us?

[shravan]

Clash at China smelter after 100s of kids poisoned
Monday, August 17, 2009

BEIJING — Police clashed with residents of two neighboring villages in northern China where nearly all the children were poisoned by lead apparently from a nearby smelter, reports said Monday, the latest sign of growing anger over China’s rampant industrial pollution.
.
.
China’s breakneck economic development has left much of its soil, air and waterways dangerously polluted, and environmental showdowns with outraged residents are growing. Authorities routinely pledge to close down polluting industries, but often back down because of their importance to the local economy.
.
At least 615 out of 731 children in two villages near the Dongling smelter have tested positive for lead poisoning,

[Chellaram]

Does Beijing really want to break-up India ?

B Raman's response to this article (for those that havent read it already):

http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/%5Cpap ... r3360.html

[Bade]

I have pictorial evidence that in Sikkim, PRC goons are right across the border, so close that one can shake hands with them. So it will be all hand to hand fight all the way through the finger region if it comes to that. Their bunkers are really close.

Bade,

Could you post them?

I did not see them when I was there. It was my beat!

A new development I presume!

RayC, it is was not taken by me. A dear friend who works for a GoI institution had put up the picture in his facebook entry. Privacy issues are there in using it. Otherwise, I would have posted it. His visit was sometime last year with family.

[brihaspati]

Liu,
I discussed exactly what you said with my Chinese colleagues. In fact they laughed, but said that they laughed at how eager and scared you appear to be, to be on the good books of the "authorities"!

[haoyun]

I am appalled by the misunderstanding and hostility toward Chinese culture in this topic. India and china are two great old civilizations and both suffered greatly from western colonization during past two centuries and shouldn’t be any reason for two countries to help each other and live peacefully.

A lot of people got second hand info and are subject to western propaganda/bigotry to demonize Chinese people, Chinese people like any people in any parts of the world are peace loving, law abiding and proud people. Of course there is corruption, but it is anywhere such as in US and india. Can you guys honestly tell me there are no corruption, no murder and no prostitution in India? I totally don’t understand some people’s high moral ground stand toward other culture.

[archan]

I am appalled by the misunderstanding and hostility toward Chinese culture in this topic. India and china are two great old civilizations and both suffered greatly from western colonization during past two centuries and shouldn’t be any reason for two countries to help each other and live peacefully.

A lot of people got second hand info and are subject to western propaganda/bigotry to demonize Chinese people, Chinese people like any people in any parts of the world are peace loving, law abiding and proud people. Of course there is corruption, but it is anywhere such as in US and india. Can you guys honestly tell me there are no corruption, no murder and no prostitution in India? I totally don’t understand some people’s high moral ground stand toward other culture.

Haoyun,
Welcome to the forum. We appreciate your thoughts. However, we do not create new threads on this forum unless a topic deserves a new thread. You are welcome to introduce yourself but please use the existing India-China thread for that.
We have note in the past that we do not hate the Chinese people - in fact many of us living outside India have very good Chinese friends. The main points of criticism are usually the communist party, its' policies against India, the cheating in business (such as making fake drugs and labeling them "Mad in India", and copying intellectual property). I am sure there is much to talk about on these issues in the other threads.
Feel free to ask questions, share your opinion and perspective in the existing thread and I hope you will have a mutually beneficial interaction with the other members.
I will soon merge these two posts in that thread.

[Mahendra]

Welcome to BRF Haoyun

[brihaspati]

Can our Chinese posters on the forum comment on this ?
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... ?page=full

HU HAIFENG
GOH CHAI HIN/AFP/Getty Images

Dad: Chinese President Hu Jintao (shown right, meeting with Namibian President Hifikepunye Pohamba in better times)

Age: 38

Bad behavior: Until this year, few outside of China had ever heard of Haifeng. The president of the industrial scanner company Nuctech, he likely used his father’s connections to make his fortune, winning a lucrative contract to supply security scanners to China’s airports. Until this month, he had mostly kept his name out of the papers. Then, in July, Namibia’s government named Nuctech as the target of a major corruption investigation.

Namibian prosecutors have accused Nuctech of bribing officials to win a contract to supply the country’s airports and customs stations with scanners. Although Haifeng has not been named as a suspect, Namibia’s prosecutor general has personally traveled to Bejing to request that he testify in the trial as a witness.

The case capped off a bad month for Hu Jintao, who had been forced to return from home from the G-8 summit in Rome to deal with riots in Xinjiang. Since news of the scandal broke, there’s been a near-complete media blackout on the story in China. The government has reportedly instructed search engines to “show no search results for all the keywords: Hu Haifeng, Namibia, Namibia bribery investigation, Nuctech bribery investigation, southern Africa bribery investigation.” The fact that Haifeng’s brother-in-law is the founder of China’s largest search engine should help.

[enqyoob]

This is indeed strange. Why does the son of Hu Jin Tao need to BRIBE some foreign company? Why not just arrest the company's representatives in China, like what was done in the elegant Mature Dictatorship's negotiations with Rio Tinto?

[haoyun]

I am appalled by the misunderstanding and hostility toward Chinese culture in this topic. India and china are two great old civilizations and both suffered greatly from western colonization during past two centuries and shouldn’t be any reason for two countries to help each other and live peacefully.

A lot of people got second hand info and are subject to western propaganda/bigotry to demonize Chinese people, Chinese people like any people in any parts of the world are peace loving, law abiding and proud people. Of course there is corruption, but it is anywhere such as in US and india. Can you guys honestly tell me there are no corruption, no murder and no prostitution in India? I totally don’t understand some people’s high moral ground stand toward other culture.

Haoyun,
Welcome to the forum. We appreciate your thoughts. However, we do not create new threads on this forum unless a topic deserves a new thread. You are welcome to introduce yourself but please use the existing India-China thread for that.
We have note in the past that we do not hate the Chinese people - in fact many of us living outside India have very good Chinese friends. The main points of criticism are usually the communist party, its' policies against India, the cheating in business (such as making fake drugs and labeling them "Mad in India", and copying intellectual property). I am sure there is much to talk about on these issues in the other threads.
Feel free to ask questions, share your opinion and perspective in the existing thread and I hope you will have a mutually beneficial interaction with the other members.
I will soon merge these two posts in that thread.

Thanks man, that new thread was a mistake, I tried to delete it but at once it was not editable.

I will try to post some info to my best knowledge and sometimes have an honest debate.

Best wish to everyone!

[derkonig]

^^^
The 'hostility' towards China on this thread is a direct function of the antics of some of the Chinese posters here. You will do well to not imitate them.

[JwalaMukhi]

I am appalled by the misunderstanding and hostility toward Chinese culture in this topic. India and china are two great old civilizations and both suffered greatly from western colonization during past two centuries and shouldn’t be any reason for two countries to help each other and live peacefully.

These words are extremely good to hear, but actions by the chinese government if it matches half the quality expressed in words would go a long way.
For starters:
1) {The Chinese junta should} stop propping pathetic nation of Bakistan. Bakis openly flout that they have provided carte-blanche to chinese govt to conduct baki's foreign policy.
2) Return Aksi-chin area unconditionally to who it rightfully belongs.
3) Pull back from Tibet nation and discontinue hanization of the valley.
As long as these things are not done, helping each other: is sweet nothings which are dime a dozen.

[enqyoob]

JM:

The actions of the Chinese government should not be blamed on postors at BRF.

Other obvious reasons aside, please note that unlike citizens of free democracies, Chinese citizens have absolutely no say in the actions of the government, and the government does not work for them, or even for the common good.

Postors who come here and speak for the great Chinese culture and the treasures of ancient Chinese civilization, should be commended. As far as I know, and of course I can speak for the government people in India have great respect and admiration for Chinese ancient culture. Most of us find it very sad that such a great civilization has not been able to get out from under tyranny for the past 2 centuries. Judging by some of the postors we have seen here, it is obvious that many Chinese people of the modern generation suffer from serious problems due to living under this tyranny.

[JwalaMukhi]

From CIA database, comparison of roadways. Guess the situation is similar even now.
India: 3,316,452 Km (2006)
China: 1,930,544 Km (2005)
http://tinyurl.com/roadways-Ind-Chn

[Dhiman]

I am appalled by the misunderstanding and hostility toward Chinese culture in this topic. India and china are two great old civilizations and both suffered greatly from western colonization during past two centuries and shouldn’t be any reason for two countries to help each other and live peacefully.

A lot of people got second hand info and are subject to western propaganda/bigotry to demonize Chinese people, Chinese people like any people in any parts of the world are peace loving, law abiding and proud people. Of course there is corruption, but it is anywhere such as in US and india. Can you guys honestly tell me there are no corruption, no murder and no prostitution in India? I totally don’t understand some people’s high moral ground stand toward other culture.

Haoyun,

India is an ancient civilization because our value system and culture today is essentially an extension and evolution of the value system and culture that existed thousands of years ago (barring cast system and its remnants today off course). We have borrowed in few cases and got rid of things in other cases, but essentially the back-bone is the same. So, why should we consider China today to be an ancient civilization? As far as I can see China decided a long time back to kill its ancient civilization (if there ever was one), so whatever you have in China today has nothing to do with an ancient civilization? Surely communism and capitalism does not constitute an ancient culture and civilization?