Strategic leadership for the future of India

[Pranav]

Rajinder Puri hits the nail on the head as usual ...

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Opinion
The Three Blind Men...
http://outlookindia.com/article.aspx?261362

Jaswant Singh’s book on Mohammed Ali Jinnah, which has become a talking point across India, has revived the old debate about Partition. Time for a reality check before we decide on heroes and villains
Rajinder Puri

Jaswant Singh, former cabinet minister, has written a book on Mohammed Ali Jinnah which has become a talking point across India . I have not read the book. I have heard Jaswant Singh on TV expounding his views on Jinnah. The main thrust of his work seems to be:

1) Jinnah has been unnecessarily demonised. He was a great man and not wholly responsible for the Partition of the subcontinent.

2) Pandit Nehru was primarily responsible for the Partition because he believed in a centralized India which left no space for the Muslims to protect themselves against Hindu domination.

3) Mahatma Gandhi, and other Congress leaders were opposed to the Partition and would not have allowed it if it were not for Nehru.

The view about Nehru’s role in the Partition is not new. This scribe wrote about it in a book of just 107 text pages, not over 600 pages, which were published 20 ago. Others, such as former ADC to Lord Mountbatten and later India ’s ambassador abroad, Narendra Singh Sarila, wrote on the subject of the Partition at greater length.

Let us consider the three main postulates of Jaswant Singh’s views outlined above.

1) Jinnah was not a “great” man. He was articulate, highly intelligent and focused. He missed greatness by a wide margin because he willingly colluded with the British to create a Pakistan about which he had not even determined boundaries or shape. He mainly fulfilled British goals while satisfying his own vanity.

Independence came first; the boundaries of the divided nations came later. The British had decided on Partition to serve their own strategic ends. On 29 March 1945, after Viceroy Lord Wavell met Prime Minister Churchill in London he recorded: “He (Churchill) seems to favour partition of India into Pakistan, Hindustan and Princestan.”

Sir Martin Gilbert, the British biographer of Winston Churchill revealed that Churchill had asked Jinnah to dispatch secret letters to him by addressing them to a lady, Elizabeth Giliat, who had been Churchill’s secretary. This secret interaction continued for years. Jinnah’s key decisions between 1940 and 1946, including the demand for Pakistan in 1940, were taken after getting the nod from Churchill or Lord Linlithgow and Wavell, both Churchill's admirers.

Jinnah admitted during the Simla Conference in 1945 that he was receiving advice from London . In other words, Jinnah was as much a British puppet on a string as were the top Indian leaders.

2) Yes, Pandit Nehru was primarily responsible for the Partition. This was not because he was emotionally committed to a centralised India but because he too was thoroughly programmed by the British since his school days. His proximity to Lord Mountbatten has been recorded by Maulana Abul Kalam Azad and historian Shashi Joshi among others. Even before Mountbatten’s arrival in India Lord Wavell had complained that Nehru was often informed by Whitehall before he was!

3) Mahatma Gandhi and other Congress leaders may have been unhappy about the Partition. They did not oppose it. When the resolution to accept Partition was taken by the Congress on June 3, 1947 Gandhi observed his day of silence. He assured Mountbatten on June 2 that he would not oppose Partition.

It can be nobody’s case that Nehru was so powerful that he could override Gandhi and the rest. The truth was that Gandhi lacked the gumption to oppose Partition when it came to the crunch because he knew that his adversary was not Nehru but Britain . At Mountbatten’s bidding he could undertake a fast unto death to compel the Indian government to pay adequate compensation to Pakistan . He made no such protest when his life’s work of creating a united independent India was being destroyed.

Gandhi’s belated attempt to undo his mistake by wanting to settle in Pakistan and by demanding the dissolution of the Congress in his last will and testament was aborted by his death.

These judgments may appear cruel. Truth is seldom kind. Any assessment about the causes that led to the Partition of India would be flawed unless the central role of the British in creating it, and the compliant role of the Indian and Pakistani leaders in accepting it, are recognized.

The most clinching evidence of this is provided by the recorded views of Christopher Beaumont who was private secretary to Sir Cyril Radcliffe, chairman of the Indo-Pakistan Boundary Commission. His private papers were recently released by his son, Robert Beaumont. The elder Beaumont wrote in 1947:

“The viceroy, Mountbatten, must take the blame - though not the sole blame - for the massacres in the Punjab in which between 500,000 to a million men, women and children perished…The handover of power was done too quickly."

Christopher Beaumont was most scathing about how partition affected the Punjab . He wrote:

“"The Punjab partition was a disaster… Geography, canals, railways and roads all argued against dismemberment… The trouble was that Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs were an integrated population so that it was impossible to make a frontier without widespread dislocation… Thousands of people died or were uprooted from their homes in what was in effect a civil war… By the end of 1947 there were virtually no Hindus or Sikhs living in west Punjab - now part of Pakistan - and no Muslims in the Indian east… The British government and Mountbatten must bear a large part of the blame for this tragedy."

A few Britons are beginning to confront the truth. Will Indians ever start doing the same?

[Rahul Mehta]

Sanku: please don't refer to RM, any reference to his thinking ....

Oh boy !! You guys should really see brain doctor to cure your RM-phobia. . I am now doubting that you all wear "Dont refer to RM" T-shirts and caps and have nightmares of me.

If at all I get banned, admins can use "we will bring RM back" as threat to control anti-RM elements.

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Chiron: I find myself agreeing with views of RM ji, about the timing of this revelation. ...

RamaY: Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction. That’s why I wouldn’t ridicule RM’s claims

Thanks, and AWMTA .

---

For a moment, I would request you all to ponder WHY JS decided to spend his previous hours on writing a book on an issue that has been beaten to death, rather than any problem that plagues India such as corruption, weakening of Indian Military Industrial Complex, poverty etc. Time is money, time is life. JS has intense career ambitions (which I welcome) and every muscle he moves, he moves with motive of grabbing "leader of opposition" seat and/or BJP President seat and later PM seat. He is no longer a "truth finder" and some jehadi out to tell the truth to world. And if he was, there are far more important truths in existing administration to talk about than beating dead horses. So why chose to spend days and weeks on this dead issue and not some critical issue?

So choice of topic is one issue. Now lets see contents. I dont mind his JLN bashing. But when he praises Jinha does JS report THE TRUTH that Jinha had ordered murder of 1000s of Hindus on Direct Action Day in Kolkata? Does JS mention that he had asked ML youth in Pakistan to kick every Hindu out of Pakistan? Does JS mention the truth Jinha had ordered Pakistani policemen NOT to interrupt ML youth busy raping, burning, beating, killing and looting Hindus? How many ML murderers were punished by Jinha? Some 10,00,000 Hindus were killed, and Jinha could not find even 10 ML guys to hang. Does JS mention these facts? So if even you say that JS is out to disclose the truth, his hiding Jinha's genocidal tendencies and that proves that JS is only reporting half-truths=lies.

Now lets see the impact the book will cause and impact it will cause is the motive behind his publishing the book. The book will welcome by ToI, HT, IE and Hindu. And who are these newspapers? They are MNC, Christianist fiefdoms. The whole p-sec crowd will now dance like cheerleaders. And we know what these p-sec stand for and who pays them. JS will also get Teesta Setalvad's "best BJP leader of the year" award, which LKA got some years back. IOW, when JS was writing the book, his goal was to win the affection of MNC, Christianists and their agents in India such as HT, IE, ToI, Teesta etc. And why does JS want their affection?

Many inside and outside BJP believe that BJP's vote share has now saturated. Pls note : I dont believe that and I am not stating that as fact, but I am only stating that many do believe so. ABV was first, LKA was next and now JS. So they see support of p-sec leaders necessary to improve their careers. These p-sec leaders are Nitish, Laloo, MY, Mayawati, TDP, Naveen Patnaik, AIDMK, DMK, CPM etc. If not support, hostilities should reduce. All these p-sec leaders are now complete slaves of Saud, MNCs, Christianists. These cahoots will support a BJP leader but ONLY after Saud, MNC, Christianist give a "no-objection certificate" to that BJP leader. IOW, ABV and later LKA became p-sec to gain NoC from Saud, MNCs, Christianists. And now JS is next.

So when in 2004-05, I said that "Saud, MNC, Christianist money made LKA p-sec", I did not mean that LKA took money from them into his account. LKA is power blind and wants no money. But LKA saw that if he does not become p-sec, Saud/Christianists will keep on spending money against him inside and outside BJP and so he will never become PM. He had option of raising BJP's vote share by harnessing anti-corruption pro-poor vote bank, but he chose not to take that hard long cut and decided to take easy short cut. And so he became p-sec. His Jinha worshiping was nothing but sending a mildly encrypted message to Saud-Christianists and also Hinduvaadies that he has kicked away Hinduvaad and is now p-sec. And JS is now on the same road and for the same reason. JS wants Saud/Christianists to spend money for him in media and NGOs they own or at least wants to reduce hostilities from them. So he has openly declared that he is kicking away Hinduvaad and becoming p-sec. The Jinha praising is nothing an encoded message saying "I am not a Hinduvaadi anymore, I am now a p-sec". With this message, Saud-Christianists will start pulling all their levers to make JS next leader of opposition or BJP president or whatever. And what is worse is that now many leaders in BJP will join this rat race, and come with "I a bigger p-sec than JS, so pls give me more ToI coverage" shrills.

JS has made a huge dent in his reputation and worse BJP's reputation in the eyes of BJP voters. JS's chances of becoming leader of opposition has increased, and BJP further lost its committed Hinduvaadi voters. Classic case of leader advancing at the cost of Party. In any case, I was never a BJP fan or enemy (i.e. I hate BJP as much as CPM, Congress and so no extra animosity). So I have no advices for BJP fans.

(Aside : I dont blame JS for Khandhar mishap. He should not have gone, but that was a minor error. I dont blame anyone in BJP in for Khandhar, we all Indians equally share this blame. I do blame JS for not resigning when LKA, ABV released 4 Russian and later British arms suppliers. If he had threatened resignation, ABV would have backtracked. But that is OST and I will stop here).

[Pranav]

It is curious how Gandhi used to toe the British line (sidelining Bose, choosing Nehru over Patel). Despite all that, in the end he was assassinated by the Brits with the help of the useful idiot Nathuram Godse. Maybe he was not servile enough.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassinat ... and_Gandhi

[RajeshA]

Jaswant Singh expelled from BJP

Senior BJP leader Jaswant Singh, who kept away from the opening session of 'Chintan Baithak' has been expelled from the party.

Singh was in Shimla but had stayed put in his room of a hotel different from Peterhoff Hotel where the three-day 'Chintan Baithak' is being held.

After triggering a firestorm for praising Mohammad Ali Jinnah, Jaswant Singh has found himself increasingly isolated within the party, which openly dissociated itself from his book and was also in the crosshair of the Sangh Parivar and key ally Shiv Sena.

Top BJP leaders began a brainstorming session in Shimla over the state of affairs in the party against the backdrop of Lok Sabha defeat and internal bickerings that have marred its image.

On the first of its three-day closed-door Chintan Baithak (introspection meeting), the party leadership is expected to discuss the Bal Apte committee report which has been prepared on the basis of inputs from states on the reasons for the poor performance of the party in the Lok Sabha polls.

The next two days will discuss the future course of action of the party, learning from the lessons of the recent Lok Sabha elections. The party top brass will also strategise on the forthcoming assembly elections in Maharashtra and Haryana.

The meeting, being attended by about 25 top BJP leaders including L K Advani, Rajnath Singh, Sushma Swaraj and Arun Jaitley.

[shravan]

Oh boy !! You guys should really see brain doctor to cure your RM-phobia.

I also suffer from RM-phobia.

Folks,
MMS is selling out India, Take SeS or Nuke deal or many other things. Inside India, he is promoting corruption like there is no tomorrow (eg pls see recent rice scam Outlook reported).

So what solutions would you like to work on?
---
I will campaign to create procedure by which citizens can replace PM without waiting for 5 years.

...

[surinder]

In additon to ignoring the suffering of millions and bartering away their collective suffering to appear God of Peace, The Mahatma's parting shot after independence was interesting: Compel India to make payments to TSP *WHILE* the war with TSP was in progress. This must be the most bizarre action in any country. TSP must been able to procure more war supplies and hence kill more more Indian troops with that money.

MKG's role must be understood in more detail. More and more of his actions appear bizzarre and unrooted. Of course he was not mad, and probably also not an outright spy or agent of the British. But his actions always seem to end up never crossing the British core interests, but usually helping them. From the decision to support war, to oppose SCB, to not fast against partition, but fast for money to TSP. There has to be a simple understandable explanation of his behavior. It has eluded me. Maybe someone can take a look at his pattern of behavior and find some clues to his real motivations & real committments & real loyalties.

[Rahul Mehta]

This is what a wise men wrote on BR yesterday.

Now what would BJP fans do? Many times, when a hubby beats the wife, some wife would call quit. But some hapless wife would "rationalize" the beatings and show that "my hubby was right". Same way, some BJP fans will demand expulsion of JS, while most poor hapless fans will "rationalize" JS's new found love for Jinha. I really feel pity for these hapless BJP fans.

And today, BJP's senior leadersship expelled JS. Poor JS !! He thought that LKA survived Jinha praising, and so would he. But BJP supporters must have reacted angrily, after reading BR, and demanded expulsion of JS (as suggested to them in the above mentioned post), lest more leaders start worshiping Jinha. And so BJP leaders had to expel JS. Lets see what JS does now.

[sunnyP]

http://www.ndtv.com/news/videos/video_p ... id=1147507

His press conference.

Crocodile tears or ........?

edit - JS has a point, he's been loyal to the party for 30 years for god sake, the least the BJP could have done is let him resign. This is hardly the kind of attention the BJP needs right now. They are imploding.

[Sanku]

edit - JS has a point, he's been loyal to the party for 30 years for god sake, the least the BJP could have done is let him resign. This is hardly the kind of attention the BJP needs right now. They are imploding.

Its the Khanduri vs Koshyari all over again, except that it is Raje-JS this time. Rather idiotic for BJP to behave this way.

Rajnath will be the death of BJP it seems....

[harbans]

One thing, JS may have a 'pucca' cultivated accent, but these politicos haven't learnt from their American or Brit counterparts on elemenar handling of press conferences..why wait for the reporters to ask in a cacophony to decide themselves who's gonna ask the question, just point to one and say ..YOU! I mean it's as simple as that..but he'll wait for them to resolve the obvious cacophon and give hard condescending looks...

[Abhi_G]

If certain segments of TSP populations come to the border to break it up like the Germans did to their iron-wall, then not many can object, can they? (or should they be allowed to object?) But it needs strong discouragement to those small but shrill voices who woyl try to prevent this - for them some deft application of the stick will be necessary. The JS "school" should ponder this for the longer term.

Brihaspati ji, I know there is an "if" at the start of the sentence but who do you think are these? Could you please clarify? Technically comparison to Germany is not correct - the shedding of communism and the shedding of wahabism, are they equivalent? JMTs.

[sukhdeo]

I agree with Rahul Mehta to an extent, that there seems to be too much emphasis on the past while discussing the strategic leadership of the "future". There can be no doubt that those who dont know history are doomed to repeat it. It is equally true that knowledge of "true" or "correct" history is imperative, which requires a lot of research and straying away from the mainstream, as history is written by winners.

But the future is not simply a repeat of history either. Human beings have
free will. They consciously or sub-consciously change things to create a future, distinct from the past, for better or for worst. Sometimes, history is repeated, but not always. This should seem like a motherhood and apple pie statement that no one should have any disagreement with.

Why then do we choose to exclusively focus on the past ? What about the future ? Can we discuss some models which could forecast where India could be a year from now, two years from now, 5 years from now, 10 years from now and 20 years from now and even 30 years from now, if India stays on the same trajectory in all ways (politically, economically, defence wise), and our neighbors and the world stays on the same trajectory ? How would the outcome change, if any or all of those trajectories change ? What kind of changes would India and Indians have to make to their trajectory to produce at least satisfactory outcomes and how should we go about making those changes ? Depending on what changes and trajectory we want to take in the future, will then spawn a discussion of suitable leadership that will be ideal to lead us in making those changes.

Brihispati has talked about his predictions for 2025 and 2035, but are they mere astrological predictions or are they based on some logical and realistic model which connects our current trajectory to those outcomes or is based on a road map from our current trajectory to those outcomes ? Does he feel that his outcomes are inevitable or are there events, strategies and people that can change the outcomes ? I for one, for instance, cannot forsee India surviving by 2035 if we stay on the current trajectory or at least much weakened even compared to now, leave aside going on an upward trend. Brihispati seems to think that a mere repeat of historical cycle will make it "time" for India to ascend again by 2035, where people around the world, nations around the world and their conscious strategies will have no or minimal role in determining the outcome. In that scheme of things, people are just like rocks or animals, having practically no pro-active role to play and therefore, a classic argument for doing nothing, attempting to change nothing. In such a scenario, its futile to discuss the leadership of the future or the future itself, as we are just governed by these historical time cycles and we cant change them. This is a classic argument for doing nothing, which then brings out all the pseudo Chanakya followers out of the woodwork promoting doing nothing, even though I realize thats not what Brihispati intends.

So, while a discussion of the future requires a very healthy dose of the past (as a student of history, I hate to denigrate the value of it), but it cannot mean being totally stuck in the past to the exclusion of any discussion about how we get from here to the future. A discussion about the future without discussing the future will not be a discussion of the future but a discussion of the past, and there is a difference, unless you believe that the past will come around back in the future in historical cycles, therefore, the past is the future.

For all the Rahul mehta haters out there, I would say this. With all his quirks, I like him, because he is always looking to the future. He is constantly talking about everyday problems plaguing India. How we resolve these everyday problems in my view will determine a lot of our future. You may agree with him on whether the problems he brings up are the ones that should be high up in priority or not, but I agree with his general thrust and he brings a refreshing change by discussing real, ground level problems and focussing on the future and solutions, not mere problems. He also understands that solving these problems are inevitably tied to our future. Most of the rest of us are well, "do nothing" promoting Chanakyans or mere freelance interpreters of history and past events, recent or distant.

Sorry, Mehta, I may have put you on a steeper downward trajectory to be banned from this forum, as anyone who seems to develop any semblence of a following on this forum, other than the "brahmins of this forum" inevitably gets.

[RajeshA]

Leaders who have far more years behind them and a few years in front of them, would show more interest for the past. Even the years in front of them would be such of which they would understand nothing, as the complexity of global supply chains, global finance and economics, cyber-safety, consumerist youth behavior, technology, global power politics, energy politics, organized crime syndicates, terrorist networks, etc. would be beyond them.

So better talk about old icons.

[sukhdeo]

Leaders who have far more years behind them and a few years in front of them, would show more interest for the past. Even the years in front of them would be such of which they would understand nothing, as the complexity of global supply chains, global finance and economics, cyber-safety, consumerist youth behavior, technology, global power politics, energy politics, organized crime syndicates, terrorist networks, etc. would be beyond them.

So better talk about old icons.

Not just leaders, but all people old only talk about the past. They need not be chronologically old either, only old of the mind.

[RajeshA]

Not just leaders, but all people old only talk about the past. They need not be chronologically old either, only old of the mind.

Sure, but they do not become a dangerous burden on the nation.

[Atri]

Sukhdeo ji,

As a student of history, you must be knowing the importance of the patterns of sociological and civilizational behaviour. At gross level, the free-will is severely curtailed as it is influenced by several factors, both extrinsic (climate, invasions) and intrinsic (culture, economy, polity etc). If a hungry man possesses a gun, it need not necessarily mean that he will rob someone at gun-point or commit suicide to end his misery. He may still behave righteously if that is his intrinsic Dharma. The probability of that person behaving righteously increases furthermore, if he has been through similar situation several times in past and have behaved righteously. Of course, probability is never zero or one. There always is a chance of deviating from the trend, as you so eloquently elucidated. This logic needs to be applied more severely and stringently to a group of people and most stringently to an entire civilization.

The modelling of Bhaarat's growth is based on similar patterns observed in history. It has also to be looked in context of changing climate, globally and locally. There is a theory that increasing global temperatures might increase the sea-levels, but also might increase the strength of Indian Monsoon. It might be irregular, but has a distinct-possibility of strengthening.

The socio-economic and political sinusoidal behaviour of Bhaarat and its civilization also has to be looked through similar prism. Brihaspati ji has but stated one of the probable hypotheses of the impending behavioural pattern. In your hypothesis, you have correctly observed that if current trend of Bhaarat continues, the nation and the civilization would be in deeper crisis by 2035. But, are you sure that the change occurring in Bhaarat is linear? Are you sure that it is not exponential OR in ascension of the sinusoidal cycle? Given the rate of change of environment (social, economic and political) in and around Bhaarat, it makes it difficult to assume that the current point of India's trajectory is located on straight line. Hence, difficult to determine the global slope of the trajectory.

Furthermore, the assets of Bhaarat are changing positively. This makes us safely arrive to conclusion that at least on economic front, the wealth of Bhaarat is increasing. And so is the quality of life and per-capita production and consumption of resources. Exactly reverse trend was observed in Mughal and British era when wealth and resources accumulated in hands of elite during Mughal era and capital flew out of Bhaarat in British era.

It is not that Bhaarat will be biggest economy and super-power by 2035. It is logically impossible. Hindus (Non-Abrahamic religions of Indian Origin) have gained power and started dealing with outside world on their own terms after a long gap of 700 years in 1947. There was lack of knowledgeable bureaucracy amongst Hindus which understood Bhaarat on their own and understood what is good and bad for the nation. For efficient policy-making, an establishment needs a large pool of brains capable of thinking the solutions which are actually good for the organization and not just apparently good. The generations of policy makers till now, in independent India have been educated and raised in the environment of western supremacy. The Sanskaars of slavery are deeply and subtly ingrained in to the minds of Babudom of India. This is not the blame, this is natural; after 700 years of dependency it takes time to start walking and running.

The current generation of youngsters (those who are born in late 70's and early 80's) are comparatively free of such sanskaars of dhimmitude and slavery. They may be westernized and anglicized, but they can deal with and interact with the west with great degree of equality. When a guy in 20's enters the western world for education or job, he is surprised by the progress but that progress and awe does not influence him to behave subserviently with his western colleagues. He treats them and they treat him as equal colleague. He takes decisions which he thinks are in his best interest and his colleagues respect that. This is extremely major shift in mentality of Hindus that is happening. It is as though a spring which was forcibly held down is now released.

By 2035, this generation will be the senior policy makers of Bhaarat. This process has already started and many people born in late 70's and early 80's are in civil service. But from 2020, they will start appearing on higher and higher posts in greater and greater numbers. The critical threshold in terms of number is expected to cross around 2030. This is when the behaviour of Bhaarat with respect to rest of the world will be more and more Indic.

One has to note that when I say Indic resurgence in policy-making circles, it need not be dhoti-clad Sanskrit proficient babus. It only means group of babus who are devoid of those Dhimmi Sanskaars just because they have been separated from era of slavery by 2 generations and have been raised in Bhaarat with bright prospects.

Shubham astu.....

[sukhdeo]

Chiron,

Agree with a lot of what you say. But what are the salient points you are trying to make.

Is free will significant or non significant ? Are non human factors so overwhelming that humans have very little control ? Can humans by and large, despite non human factors such as climate control their own destiny, if not absolutely, to a large extent ? If they can, then what trajectory should the country and its people take ? For that trajectory to be followed, how do you organize your society ? What kind of leadership is necessary for that societal organization or re-organization to occur ? or there is really no need for any of these things, things will take care of themselves.

I for one am sick and tired of hearing that we should get over the slave mentality and dimmitude and that is the answer to all our questions. As you correctly pointed out, most of the new generation has gotten over this problem and some of us of the older generation also fought against this slave mentality therefore, at least some of us are over it too. The problem I see is that getting over slave mentality is a necessary but not a sufficient condition for a desirable future. Once you get over slave mentality, now what ? Since I consider myself to have never had slave mentality, I still have faced significant issues and dlilemmas all my life, which have nothing to do with slave mentality. I resent being told all the time that hey, all your issues are because of slave mentality and just like a dip in the ganges, once you get over it, you will be "purified". This is just another escapist excuse given by the elite to pacify the masses, oh, get over slave mentality, just like until recently (and I have been hearing less and less of this one), people were told by the elite that it is really population that is the problem and no political elite can do anything about it, it is the masses problem. All these excuses whether it be population or slave mentality or climatic conditions, in my view are mere excuses, for the elite not to change, to maintain status quo, not to make hard choices, not to make any sacrifices, to discourage people from feeling empowered by thinking that they have a free will and freedom of action and from preventing general reforms by preventing people from rising up and changing their lot.

If you analyze this, you will realize that at core, Indians have not changed. What separated Indians from the West historically is that Indians believed in fate. FATALISM. Everything is done to them, they have no control. It is futile to attempt to change things. The Western thought at least during Greek and Roman times and again during the reformation was that humans can change things and they attempted to even change nature. We are still fatalists, by all the arguments given. The masses are brain washed into being fatalists by the elites, whose short term vested interest is served by maintaining status quo. A fatalistic person will not have much self esteem, he will believe he cannot change anything, that everything is pre-ordained. Such a person will not challenge the status quo and the elites, will he ? But in the long run, this narrow mentality weakens the whole system and outsiders swallow up everyone including the elites, except those elites who turn turncoats and collaborators. Then the same collaborator starts preaching to the masses about getting over slave mentality and dimmitude.

[surinder]

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2009/20090819/edit.htm#4

Narinder Singh Sarila, the writer of the book “The Shadow of the Great Game: The Untold Story of India’s Partition.” gives his views on Jaswant Singh's book.



If even after his massive research and hard work, he did not get to the bottom of his subject, there is a reason for it. It is because he has ignored the most important element that was responsible for Partition, namely British strategic interests that required the creation of Pakistan.

...

On being asked by London to give them a clear picture of the areas that could go to Pakistan, Wavell in a historic dispatch on February 6, 1946, sent a map delineating the boundaries of Pakistan he had in mind, which were exactly the boundaries that Radcliff drew 18 months later. (So much for supposed independence of Radcliffe--my comment)

...
His Pakistan scheme, launching Direct Action — the precursor of today’s terrorism — and mobilising Muslims against the Hindus, were all in the persuit of power and glory.
...
I also feel sympathy for Jinnah, for his humiliation and suffering. But at the end of his life he did many bad things, and inflicted incalculable harm. To believe that he was great just because he fought the mighty Congress party is nonsence. Do we call Hitler great because he fought the mighty Allies?

[Sanku]

Sukhdeo, there has to be a balance between looking at only the very immediate details and in looking at the big picture of how details stitch together.

Those who have been around, know how to do it, they also know who can do and who cant.

For all those infatuated by the folks of RMs ilk, who promise to solve all the problems at the snap of a finger -- they will realize that if it was so easy, some one would have snapped the fingers by now. They are so full of their own brilliance that they have no time to see that they are perhaps not the first to have grappled with the problem neither the best one who has done so so far.

There is a reason panchtantras were taught to YOUNG princes, I am sure some will remember the story of the King, the monkey and the fly.

[sukhdeo]

Sukhdeo, there has to be a balance between looking at only the very immediate details and in looking at the big picture of how details stitch together.

Those who have been around, know how to do it, they also know who can do and who cant.

For all those infatuated by the folks of RMs ilk, who promise to solve all the problems at the snap of a finger -- they will realize that if it was so easy, some one would have snapped the fingers by now. They are so full of their own brilliance that they have no time to see that they are perhaps not the first to have grappled with the problem neither the best one who has done so so far.

There is a reason panchtantras were taught to YOUNG princes, I am sure some will remember the story of the King, the monkey and the fly.

By those who have been around, you mean who ? you ? How do you determine, "who has been around" ? What makes you anymore special than anyone else ? And if you know how to do it, and who can do it, then why arent you doing it ? and if you claim that you are doing it, and no one knows about it, where are the results for all to see ?

[Rahul M]

Rahul M wrote
brihaspati ji, I've a simple question, how to ensure credible leadership emerges from the democratic process ? that IMHO, is the most important function of a political structure.

As I have repeatedly tried to say before, historical experience suggests that fundamental transitions of most societies at significant economic-technological scales, always appears to happen under dictatorial regimes. This is inevitable perhaps if the socital forces are in a limbo. Where the old order is not weak enough to fall on its own, the new order is not yet strong enough to destroy the old order outright. ......................

This is a state of agonizing equilibrium. But this also creates the conditions for dictatorial regimes to arise to complete the necessary transitions. Democracy cannot make transitions - it can develop slowly. Democracy can only make transitions when a dictatorial regime has already started the process. Moreover the dilemma of a society in a dead-end equilibrium will be reflected in an equally tied and status-quo power structure.

The problem is that democracy in itself does not necessarily generate collective action, and may not allow necessary changes to proceed because a simple majority is not quite sure of the necessity of such changes or even a determined minority uses the democratic process to obstruct necessary changes.

Now as for emergence of leadership by the democratic process who are credible at the same time - is a very rare phenomenon. They are credible to a determined minority among those who have established dominance over the political process. This does not mean they will be credible for all.

Democracy's greatest problem in bringing up proper leadership, through the party system, consists primarily of the following process.
.........

if I follow you correctly, the gist of the above is that a democratic regime is unlikely to spearhead or even enable significant changes in society.

but I was not talking of any immediate change, but regular governance over a period of time.
say we manage to complete the fundamental 'revolutions' in society by authoritarian means, what then ?
do you want the authoritarian set-up to continue ? or should a democratic set-up be brought back ? if the later, how would that seek to develop a system to push competent leaders to the top ?

incidentally, how do you rate the initial years of US in the aspect of throwing up leaders through democracy ?

=====================

Sorry, Mehta, I may have put you on a steeper downward trajectory to be banned from this forum, as anyone who seems to develop any semblence of a following on this forum, other than the "brahmins of this forum" inevitably gets.

wow !

[ramana]

Despite the impression Rahul Mehta was never banned on this forum ever, so what do you have to say to that?

The moderators are all wise and lower the heavy hand only on thos who need it.

If you have difficulty/takleef and carry a chip on your shoulder you are wlecome to be not a part of the forum. Do not fire form others shoulders for that is hallmark of Pakiness.

need to coin a new term

RIP = Resident Indian Pakees. These are WKKs who have crossed the Indus but dont want the promised land.

[Abhi_G]

Sukhdeo,

Many threads have meandered through the questions you have raised. At one time, Raji had posted exactly similar sentiments. It is simply not true that answers were not tried to be given. I do not have recollection where, but there was a huge discussion on India's problems and Shiv had handled that thread. Maybe the moderators can help you in locating what you want exactly. But are you specific about what exactly you want to search?

I am seeing some level of frustation in your postings which is fine, but please keep in mind that many postors here come to gather and hone their knowledge. Expressing your frustation maybe fine but do that in a way as to not derail the thread. Sorry, OT.

[sukhdeo]

Sukhdeo,

Many threads have meandered through the questions you have raised. At one time, Raji had posted exactly similar sentiments. It is simply not true that answers were not tried to be given. I do not have recollection where, but there was a huge discussion on India's problems and Shiv had handled that thread. Maybe the moderators can help you in locating what you want exactly. But are you specific about what exactly you want to search?

I am seeing some level of frustation in your postings which is fine, but please keep in mind that many postors here come to gather and hone their knowledge. Expressing your frustation maybe fine but do that in a way as to not derail the thread. Sorry, OT.

If in your opinion, there is anything of value other than frustration in my posts, may I suggest that you simply read that and ignore what you dont find useful, such as my frustration. If we use this principle of attempting to just find and address the useful aspects of each others posts, we may make some headway.

It may be my duty to try to keep frustration level at a minimum, but it is also the readers to ignore things they dont find useful and extract the useful out of a post. The reason I say so is that I am not deliberately trying to express frustration. I am simply trying to write a post. I only find out that part of my post is frustration, when others point it out. Therefore, as hard as I try, I may not be able to keep all that people dont like out of my posts.

[Sanku]

By those who have been around, you mean who ?

Its self realization actually, no can take you there, others can help with the their vignettes of how they did on that journey.

It however needs a open mind, and no I don't mean the sort that RM displays.

[sukhdeo]

Despite the impression Rahul Mehta was never banned on this forum ever, so what do you have to say to that?

The moderators are all wise and lower the heavy hand only on thos who need it.

If you have difficulty/takleef and carry a chip on your shoulder you are wlecome to be not a part of the forum. Do not fire form others shoulders for that is hallmark of Pakiness.

need to coin a new term

RIP = Resident Indian Pakees. These are WKKs who have crossed the Indus but dont want the promised land.

Labeling people and calling them names is the one thing any human being can do, regardless of intellect. All they have to be able to do is stand upright to do that. Its the lowest common denominator. I dont even call the Pakis, Pakees, as much as I despise much of what they do.

I did express my frustration with Jaswant. But I would not favor banning him or even expelling him. His speech only has enough power to cause me frustration, no more. It cannot do anything more than rile me up for a few minutes. Banning him would be criminal.

If you were expecting to provoke me into labeling you, I am sorry, I will not oblige. But I would say, that my posts speak for themselves and I think most who may disagree with them would also agree, that they stand on their own and need no one's shoulders including Mehta's for support.

[Sanku]

Labeling people and calling them names is the one thing any human being can do, regardless of intellect. All they have to be able to do is stand upright to do that. Its the lowest common denominator. I dont even call the Pakis, Pakees, as much as I despise much of what they do..

Ah yes, you only reserve it for Jaswant Singh
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/report ... 1&p=719221

And old people, or because JS is an old man?

[sukhdeo]

Sukhdeo,

Many threads have meandered through the questions you have raised. At one time, Raji had posted exactly similar sentiments. It is simply not true that answers were not tried to be given. I do not have recollection where, but there was a huge discussion on India's problems and Shiv had handled that thread. Maybe the moderators can help you in locating what you want exactly. But are you specific about what exactly you want to search?

I am seeing some level of frustation in your postings which is fine, but please keep in mind that many postors here come to gather and hone their knowledge. Expressing your frustation maybe fine but do that in a way as to not derail the thread. Sorry, OT.

I do understand answers are attempted to be given. I have not gone over the archives or threads that you are refering to, but I see some excellent posts in the active threads right now, including on this thread, including those from Rahul Mehta. But there are many posts on this thread that are only backward looking, which is rather strange for a thread that has "future" in its title. Rahul Mehtas posts, I find forward looking like many others, but he was singled out for ridicule in this and other posts. I was merely commenting on that.

[Sanku]

Rahul Mehtas posts, I find forward looking like many others, but he was singled out for ridicule in this and other posts. I was merely commenting on that.

Sure Rahul M(ehta) is ahead of his time. In the EVM thread he has developed whole branches of maths and physics which yet not exist, not to mention the same in theory of basic logic construction.

[sukhdeo]

Labeling people and calling them names is the one thing any human being can do, regardless of intellect. All they have to be able to do is stand upright to do that. Its the lowest common denominator. I dont even call the Pakis, Pakees, as much as I despise much of what they do..

Ah yes, you only reserve it for Jaswant Singh
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/report ... 1&p=719221

And old people, or because JS is an old man?

I do not label any poster on BRF. I will slowly evolve to not label anybody at all. In the meantime, everyone can look at the man in the mirror and only cast stones if they dont live in glass houses.

I take personal attacks on me as compliments to what I am saying in my posts. When people dont have the arguments against the logic in my posts, they have no option but to resort to personal attacks in the hope of provoking an unbalanced response, which I will not oblige anyone with.

There is an interesting story about lawyers in America. When the lawyer cannot argue the facts, he argues the law. When he cannot even argue the law, he starts yelling at the top of his voice at the opposing lawyer calling him all kinds of names. But alas, I find it amusing, such is the nature of an average human being.

[Sanku]

In the meantime, everyone can look at the man in the mirror and only cast stones if they dont live in glass houses.

Absolutely, we must not blame Pakistani's for anything till we become a true disciple of Jesus (since you chose a biblical analogy). Amen.

[shravan]

Sure Rahul M(ehta) is ahead of his time.

He wants to replace P.M. without waiting for 5 years. No political party wants that. Onlee a person ahead of time can think of it.

[sukhdeo]

In the meantime, everyone can look at the man in the mirror and only cast stones if they dont live in glass houses.

Absolutely, we must not blame Pakistani's for anything till we become a true disciple of Jesus (since you chose a biblical analogy). Amen.

Pray tell me, by what logic are you equating Pakis to other posters on this forum ? You think there is no difference ? I was merely talking about posters not hurling stones at each other.

When you mindlessly compare someone who may irritate you in a minor way to a Paki, you are not actually denigrating the poster, you are actually minimizing the magnitude of what Pakis do for a living. You are infact desensitizing people of the horrible acts they indulge in.

[svinayak]

Brihispati has talked about his predictions for 2025 and 2035, but are they mere astrological predictions or are they based on some logical and realistic model which connects our current trajectory to those outcomes or is based on a road map from our current trajectory to those outcomes ? Does he feel that his outcomes are inevitable or are there events, strategies and people that can change the outcomes ? I for one, for instance, cannot forsee India surviving by 2035 if we stay on the current trajectory or at least much weakened even compared to now, leave aside going on an upward trend. Brihispati seems to think that a mere repeat of historical cycle will make it "time" for India to ascend again by 2035, where people around the world, nations around the world and their conscious strategies will have no or minimal role in determining the outcome. In that scheme of things, people are just like rocks or animals, having practically no pro-active role to play and therefore, a classic argument for doing nothing, attempting to change nothing. In such a scenario, its futile to discuss the leadership of the future or the future itself, as we are just governed by these historical time cycles and we cant change them. This is a classic argument for doing nothing, which then brings out all the pseudo Chanakya followers out of the woodwork promoting doing nothing, even though I realize thats not what Brihispati intends.

This is based on past history of 100 years and projecting into the future. Nations and leadership change. India will have the largest population in the world and the people will be spread in most of the world in sizable numbers. Indian leadership will undergo major changes with a new generation which will have better INDIC view of the world. The past/old generation all had western/colonial view of the world. In the future the new generation will have INDIC view of the world.

Check the pattern in the past
http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index ... st&p=96258

[Sanku]

Pray tell me, by what logic are you equating Pakis to other posters on this forum ? You think there is no difference ? I was merely talking about posters not hurling stones at each other.

Pray tell me where I have done that? If however I was to come into a long running thread, and without reading it and saying that I have not yet read it, proceeded to make a judgment about all the posters who are on those threads and the moderators etc, it may be possible that it would be considered that I was hurling stones?

Perhaps now you see?

[sukhdeo]

Brihispati has talked about his predictions for 2025 and 2035, but are they mere astrological predictions or are they based on some logical and realistic model which connects our current trajectory to those outcomes or is based on a road map from our current trajectory to those outcomes ? Does he feel that his outcomes are inevitable or are there events, strategies and people that can change the outcomes ? I for one, for instance, cannot forsee India surviving by 2035 if we stay on the current trajectory or at least much weakened even compared to now, leave aside going on an upward trend. Brihispati seems to think that a mere repeat of historical cycle will make it "time" for India to ascend again by 2035, where people around the world, nations around the world and their conscious strategies will have no or minimal role in determining the outcome. In that scheme of things, people are just like rocks or animals, having practically no pro-active role to play and therefore, a classic argument for doing nothing, attempting to change nothing. In such a scenario, its futile to discuss the leadership of the future or the future itself, as we are just governed by these historical time cycles and we cant change them. This is a classic argument for doing nothing, which then brings out all the pseudo Chanakya followers out of the woodwork promoting doing nothing, even though I realize thats not what Brihispati intends.

This is based on past history of 100 years and projecting into the future. Nations and leadership change. India will have the largest population in the world and the people will be spread in most of the world in sizable numbers. Indian leadership will undergo major changes with a new generation which will have better INDIC view of the world. The past/old generation all had western/colonial view of the world. In the future the new generation will have INDIC view of the world.

Check the pattern in the past
http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index ... st&p=96258

I have read that. Correct me if I am wrong, but isnt it heavily astrology based ? You may argue that astrology is also logical, but what about the rest of us who dont share your faith in astrology. Astrology based predictions also have inevitibility around them and minimize the role that humans would play in determining the outcome. What if you are wrong and astrological predictions dont come true ? Should we also not have some rational and scientific models other than astrology ?

[Sanku]

I have read that. Correct me if I am wrong, but isnt it heavily astrology based ?

How is looking at repeating historical patterns == astrology?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/astrology

2 : the divination of the supposed influences of the stars and planets on human affairs and terrestrial events by their positions and aspects

What is being talked of is this

http://clipmarks.com/clipmark/03538FEB- ... 801A800BB/

If you listen to Bruce Bueno de Mesquita, and a lot of people don’t, he’ll claim that mathematics can tell you the future. In fact, the professor says that a computer model he built and has perfected over the last 25 years can predict the outcome of virtually any international conflict, provided the basic input is accurate. What’s more, his predictions are alarmingly specific. His fans include at least one current presidential hopeful, a gaggle of Fortune 500 companies, the CIA, and the Department of Defense. Naturally, there is also no shortage of people less fond of his work. “Some people think Bruce is the most brilliant foreign policy analyst there is,” says one colleague. “Others think he’s a quack.”

[sukhdeo]

I have read that. Correct me if I am wrong, but isnt it heavily astrology based ?

How is looking at repeating historical patterns == astrology?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/astrology

2 : the divination of the supposed influences of the stars and planets on human affairs and terrestrial events by their positions and aspects

What is being talked of is this

http://clipmarks.com/clipmark/03538FEB- ... 801A800BB/

If you listen to Bruce Bueno de Mesquita, and a lot of people don’t, he’ll claim that mathematics can tell you the future. In fact, the professor says that a computer model he built and has perfected over the last 25 years can predict the outcome of virtually any international conflict, provided the basic input is accurate. What’s more, his predictions are alarmingly specific. His fans include at least one current presidential hopeful, a gaggle of Fortune 500 companies, the CIA, and the Department of Defense. Naturally, there is also no shortage of people less fond of his work. “Some people think Bruce is the most brilliant foreign policy analyst there is,” says one colleague. “Others think he’s a quack.”

I am sorry, I dont believe in Astrology. If i were to ever have that choice, and Lord help me, if I did, I would rather trust Ramana with my life than Astrology. You, Sanku are in a close contest with Astrology in my mind.

[Sanku]

I am sorry, I dont believe in Astrology.

And clearly you share the same sentiments about the english language.

[John Snow]

BJP leadership is as dumb as Mule of the higest order.
Recall how AKhand Bumbling was at Minar-e-Pakistan and his bhashan there...
Recall how LKg how he was singing songs of Jinnah while in Pakistan
Reccall how Jasso Mithaiwala thrilled his passengers on the ride to Kandahar


We are rule by jokers and all along I was saying I feel GOI is in Collusion with TSP to rip of the people of India...

It serves jasso mithaiwala right and the BJP too.
( The only sad part is that LKg escaped while Jasoo who had no base in BJP cadare is lost.. and must now take to new azmuthal f(i)light

BJP are always jokers will remain jokers, they are neither Mafia like congress nor nationalist to the core they pretend to be.

Bharatiya Jokers Party zindabad,

Billion people ruled by million mafia.
Jai Hind.