India-China News and Discussion

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sanjaychoudhry
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by sanjaychoudhry »

I am appalled by the misunderstanding and hostility toward Chinese culture in this topic. India and china are two great old civilizations and both suffered greatly from western colonization during past two centuries and shouldn’t be any reason for two countries to help each other and live peacefully.
The Chinese civilisation is differrent from its unelected communist rulers. It is the threat to neighbouring countries by the deranged, despotic rulers of China that is being discussed here. Nobody here has any problem with Chinese civilisation. China is currently an army-backed dictatorial regime which oppresses its own people, and is a threat to peace and stability in entire Asia. It is prudent for neighbouring countries to keep the gun powder dry.

For the first time in entire 6000-year-old history, China attackd India in 1962. The deranged Chinese communists are responsible for creating so much bad blood and animosity between two great world civilisations that have always admired each other and have been peacefully trading knowledge and wisdom over thousands of years and sending emissaries to each other's courts.

The communist rulers of China do not represent aspirations and values of the Chinese people. They rule by force.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Dhiman »

sanjaychoudhry wrote:The Chinese civilisation is differrent from its unelected communist rulers.
I don't think I am very clear on the distinction unless somebody can point (or better yet list out) out what are some of the things that would be considered ancient Chinese culture, traditions, value systems that are still practiced today? Just looking for a few things that would define current-day Chinese culture today based on any ancient believes and values.
Last edited by Dhiman on 18 Aug 2009 11:34, edited 1 time in total.
harbans
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by harbans »

Dhiman, you're right. Chinese abandoned their civilization decades back when the embraced communist thought. That became their 'religion' and then Adam Smith distored. There is nothing in China today that remotely resembles ancient China. Cerainly not anthing to do with value systems. Mao did everything to destroy that. Meanwhile India cherishes that diversity and preserves it. While democracy ma be credited b Westerners to the ancient Greeks but there is evidence that the mounds of Vaishali clearly depict that democratic traditions were alive and well grassroots level in India before the Greeks learnt to spell D in democracy..
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by shyam »

China went through four major social changes that destroyed their civilizational lineage. Now they are a civilization just like current Egyptians and Iraqis are. Old civilizational remnants of China are now just museums for people to visit.

- Opium wars
- Boxer revolution
- Revolution of 1911
- Communist revolution
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Purush »

Good point; I would also like to know: what are the cultural and religious characteristics that define PRC chinese civilization today? (pls don't bring 'dragons', sun-tzu quotes et al into the discussion!)

Aside from cuisine, language and the Chinese New Year, is there any thing that today's PRC Han citizen has in common with 'ancient' chinese civilization? Didn't Mao succeed in wiping out any and all traces of culture/religion that could threaten CCP grip on power with the Cultural Revolution?

I can see religious and cultural traits in overseas chinese (SG, MY etc) who migrated well before the commies took power in PRC, but from PRC itself, I don't know...

Is the lack of a solid cultural/civilizational foundation the reason why hordes of overseas PRC citizens convert to Christianity in search of 'answers'?
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by RajeshA »

I don't know whether Chinese Civilization can only be measured by ancient Chinese religious zeal there. Civilization is a much broader term than just religious customs.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by enqyoob »

Chinese epic Lama-Yana:
Journey to the West
Traditional Chinese: 西遊記
Simplified Chinese: 西游记
Hanyu Pinyin: Xīyóu-jì
Wade-Giles: Hsiyu-chi.

Journey to the West is one of the Four Great Classical Novels of Chinese literature, the other three being :
• Romance of the Three Kingdoms (三國演義) (14th century)
• Water Margin (水滸傳) (aka Outlaws of the Marsh) (13th-15th century)
• Dream of the Red Chamber (紅樓夢) (also known as The Story of the Stone) (first block print 1791)

It was originally published anonymously in the 1590s during the Ming Dynasty, and even though no direct evidence of its authorship survives, it is ascribed to poet and novelist Wú Chéng'ēn - born in Shanyang, Huaian, China - c.1500 - 1582 .

Known as ‘Monkey’, from the title of a popular, abridged translation by Arthur Waley, the novel is a fictionalized account of the legends surrounding the Buddhist monk Xuánzàng'. Dismayed that the land of the South knows only greed, hedonism, promiscuity, and sins, {Oh! China and India were very Modern back then too!} Buddha instructs the Bodhisattva, Guān Yīn, to search Táng China for a holy pilgrim worthy of the task of taking religious texts, the Buddhist sutras of transcendence and persuasion for good will, back to the East for translation.

The Bodhisattva finds three willing disciples for the monk along the way, who agree to help Xuanzang in order to atone for their previous sins, as well as a dragon prince, Yu-Lung, who goes in the guise of a white horse.

Throughout the journey, these four brave travellers have to fend off attacks on their Master from various monsters and spirits. Most came in search of immortality, which is obtainable by eating the flesh of the holy monk, whilst others want to hinder the pilgrimage. All three – in particular, Sūn Wùkōng – have to use all their abilities and connections to defeat formidable enemies which include the Bull Demon King, the Iron Fan Princess, and even an indistinguishable imitation of Sūn Wùkōng himself. The demons on the later parts of the journey include spider-women who spin webs from their navels, a pride of lion monsters, the white-bone demon with shape-shifting powers, and a terrible female spirit who carries Xuánzàng down into her bottomless cave to marry him.

The pilgrimage takes an arduous fourteen years to complete {Aha! China was very advanced at plagiarizing from other people's epics even in those days!!}, after which each traveller is promoted to a higher post in the bureaucracy of heaven :roll: {no hope for this civilization - see why they welcomed the Communist Party}, with Sūn Wùkōng and Xuánzàng achieving Buddhahood, Bājiè promoted to an altar cleanser (ie. eater of left-over food from the God’s altar), and Wùjìng promoted to an arhat status. The dragon is made a Naga.

*Arhat = literally translated as 'worthy one' - someone who has become spiritually enlightened through the teachings of a Buddha. Different to a Buddha? YES, .. a Buddha attains enlightenment all by themselves BUT ARE ALSO arhats.
* Naga = According to the Buddist Monastic rule - animals cannot become monks but can be given the Five Precepts as a means to attaining a human existence, and therefore monkhood, in the next life. Until these five precepts are achieved, the animal will be known as a Naga.

Journey to the West has a strong background in Chinese folk religion, Chinese mythology and value systems. Part of the novel's enduring popularity comes from the fact that it works on multiple levels: it is a first-rate adventure story, a dispenser of spiritual insight, and an extended allegory in which the group of pilgrims journeying toward India represents the individuals journey towards enlightenment. {they were sensible then - they knew where the enlightenment was, as modern Chinese migrate to BRF for enlightenment}



Historical Context.

The classic tale of 'Journey to the West' was based on real events during the Tang Dynasty. The Big Wild Goose Pagoda in Xī'ān, Shǎnxī Province, China, was where the epic journey began and ended and in memory of Xuánzàng a statue was placed outside the Da Ci'en Temple.

Xuánzàng reached India after he experienced innumerable trials and hardships, of course without the help of his almighty disciples in the novel. Xuánzàng then lived in India for more than a decade, studying at Nalanda University and learning classics of Buddhism and Indian culture. Later he succeeded in going back to China, bringing with him copies of many classic Buddhist texts, which contributed significantly to the promotion of Buddhism in China.

Fictionalized stories of Xuánzàng's journey were in existence long before Journey was written. In these versions, dating as far back as Southern Song, a monkey character was already a primary protagonist. It is believed that these legends began forming from Xuánzàng's accounts of Hanuman, the Hindu monkey god from the ancient Ramayana epic. During the Yuan Dynasty and early Ming, elements of the Monkey legend can already be seen.

The Main Characters.

Xuan Zang or Tripitaka.
Xuánzàng (or Táng-Sānzàng, meaning "Táng-dynasty monk" - Sānzàng or "Three Baskets", referring to the Tripitaka, was a traditional honorific for a Buddhist monk) is the Buddhist monk who set off for India to retrieve the Buddhist scriptures.
Although he is helpless when it comes to defending himself, the gods provided him with powerful disciples (Sūn Wùkōng, Zhū Bājiè, and Shā Wùjìng) who will aid and protect him on his journey. In return, the disciples will receive enlightenment and forgiveness for their sins once the journey is done. Along the way, they help the people by ridding various monsters that are hunting their land. The fact that all the monsters and demons are trying to obtain immortality by eating Xuán Zàng provides much of the plot in the story.

Sūn Wùkōng, (孫悟空 or Monkey) - the 'real' hero!
Sūn Wùkōng is the name given to this character by his teacher, Patriarch Subodhi, and means ‘son aware of vacuity’ - probably referring to the vacuum in his head, but he was pleased with his new title non-the less. He is called Monkey King or simply Monkey in English.

He was born as a stone monkey out of a rock as old as creation. which was made magically fertile by the elements. He is noted for his bravery in being the first to enter Water-Curtain Cave on the mountain of flowers and fruit, a feat for which the other monkeys proclaimed him ‘Měi Hóu Wáng’ - the ‘handsome monkey king’.

Later, he started making trouble in the Heavens and defeated an Army of 100,000 celestial soldiers, led by the Four Heavenly Kings, Erlang Shen, and Nezha.

At the advice of The Planet Venus Spirit, The Jade Emperor invited Monkey into Heaven, giving him the title ‘Great Sage equal of Heaven’ in the hope that keeping him on a short leash would minimize the amount of mischief he could cause…. It didn’t !!

Eventually, an appeal was sent by the Jade Emperor to Buddha, who subdued Monkey and trapped him beneath Five Finger Mountain, where he stayed for 500 years. He was saved when Xuanzang came across him near the start of his pilgrimage, taking Sūn Wùkōng as one of his disciples.

His primary weapon is ‘Ru Yi Jin Gu Bang’ - The Magic Golden clasped staff, which he can make grow as tall as the sky or shrink down to the size of a needle to keep in his ear when not in use. He cajoled the staff out of Ao Kuang, the Dragon King of the Eastern Sea . It was said to have been used by the Gods to make the Milky Way and weighed 13,500 pounds, but Wukong wielded it with ease. The Dragon king, not wanting any trouble, also gave him a suit of golden armor. These gifts, combined with his devourement of the peaches of immortality and three jars of immortality pills while in Heaven, plus his 49 day ordeal in an 8-trigram furnace that gave him a steel-hard body and fiery eyes capable of seeing through any disguise, easily makes Sun Wukong the strongest member of the pilgrimage. Besides these abilities, he could also pull hairs from his body and blow on them to transform them into whatever he wished (usually clones of himself to get a numerical adantage in battle). Although he has mastered the 72-methods-of-transformations (twice that of Zhu Bajie), it does not mean that he is restricted to those 72 different forms. It's also worthy of mention the fact that he can do a "Somersault Cloud," enabling him to travel vast distances in a single leap. Wukong uses his talents to fight demons and play pranks. However, his misbehaviors are checked by a band placed around his head by Guān Yīn, which could not be removed by Sun Wukong himself until the journey's end. Xuánzàng can tighten this band by chanting the Tight-Fillet spell (also taught to him by Guān Yīn) whenever he needed to chastise the Monkey King.

Sūn Wùkōng's child-like playfulness is a huge contrast to his cunning mind. This, coupled with his acrobatic skills, make him a likeable hero, though not necessarily a good role model. His antics presented a lighter side in what proposed to be a long and dangerous trip into the unknown, a journey which would have undoubtedly ended in failure had Monkey not been there to 'baby-sit' the jibbering Monk!

Zhū Bājiè, 豬八戒 or Pigsy.
Zhū Bājiè - Pig of the Eight Prohibitions, is also known as Zhu Wuneng - Pig Awakened to Power. Before he joined Sanzang's pilgrimage, he was also known as Zhu Ganglie - Iron haired Pig. He was once an immortal known as Tian Peng Yuan Shuai , Grand Admiral of 800,000 soldiers and Marshall of the heavenly river. But during a peach banquet in celebration of the gods, he drank too much and flirted boldly with Chang'e, the beautiful moon goddess, resulting in his punishment of being sent down into the mortal world. He was supposed to be reborn as a human, but ended up in the womb of a sow due to an error at the Reincarnation Wheel, which gave Bājiè the appearance of a half-pig, half-man. He took up residence in Cloud Pathway Cave on Fu Ling mountain.

However, Bājiè's desire for women led him to Gao Village, where he posed as a normal being and took a wife. Later, when the villagers discovered the fact that he was a monster, Bājiè hid the girl away. At this point, Sanzang and Sun Wukong arrived at Gao Village and helped subdue him. Zhū Bājiè consequently joined the pilgrimage to the West.

His weapon of choice is ‘Jiu Chi Ding Pa’ - a Nine-Pronged Rake. He is also capable of thirty-six transformations (as compared to Sun Wukong's seventy-two), and can travel on clouds, but not as fast as Sun Wukong. However, Zhū Bājiè is noted for his fighting skills in the water, which he used to combat Sha Wujing, who later joined them on the journey.

Shā Wùjìng, 沙悟淨 or Sandy.
Shā Wùjìng (literally meaning "Sand Awakened to Purity"), given the name Friar Sand or Sandy (a rather feminine name) in English, was once the Curtain Raising General, who stood in attendance by the imperial chariot in the Hall of Miraculous Mist. He was exiled to the mortal world and made to look like a monster because he accidentally smashed a crystal goblet belonging to the Heavenly Queen Mother during the Peach Banquet. The now-hideous immortal took up residence in the Flowing Sands River, terrorizing the surrounding villages and travelers trying to cross the river. However, he was subdued by Sūn Wùkōng and Zhū Bājiè when the Sānzàng party came across him. They consequently took him in to be a part of the pilgrimage to the West.

Shā Wùjìng's weapon is the yuèyáchǎn ("Crescent-Moon-Shovel" or "Monk's Spade"). Aside from that, he knows eighteen transformations and is highly effective in water combat, but is agreed upon as the weakest of the three disciples.

Shā Wùjìng is known to be the most obedient, logical, and polite of the three disciples, and always takes care of his master, seldom engaging in the bickeries of his fellow-disciples. Ever reliable, he carries the luggage for the travellers. Perhaps this is why he is sometimes seen as a minor character; the lack of any particular perks confers the lack of distinguishing and/or redeeming characteristics.

Often a mediator between the other two disciples, he is like the metaphorical glue that holds the group together.

-0-

Demons from the story include :

* Black-Bear-Demon (pinyin: Hēixióngguǐ)

* Yellow Wind Demon (Huáng Fung Guǐ)

* Zhen Yuan Holy Man

* White-Bone-Demon (pinyin: Báigǔjīng)

* Yellow Robe Demon (pinyin: Huángpáoguǐ)

* Gold-Horn and Silver-Horn (pinyin: Jīnjiǎo and Yínjiǎo)

* Red-Child a.k.a. Holy Baby King (pinyin: Hóng-hái'ér; Japanese: Kōgaiji)

* Tiger Power, Deer Power and Goat (or Antelope) Power

* Black River Dragon Demon (Hēi Shui Hé Yuan Lóng Guǐ)

* Carp Demon (Li Yu Jīng)

* Green-Ox-Demon (pinyin: Qīngniújīng)

* Scorpion-Demon (pinyin: Xiēzijīng)

* Six Ear Monkey Demon a.k.a Fake Sun Wukong

* Ox-Demon-King (pinyin: Niúmówáng; Japanese: Gyūmaō)

* Demon Woman (Luo Cha Nǚ)

* Jade-Faced Princess (pinyin: Yùmiàn-gōngzhǔ; Japanese: Gyokumen-kōshū)

* Boa Demon (Hong She Jīng)

* Nine-Headed Worm Demon (Jiǔ Tou Fu Ma)

* Seven-Spider-Demons (pinyin: Zhīzhū-jīng)

* Hundred-Eyed Taoist (Bǎi Yan Mo Jun)

* Green Lion Demon (pinyin: Qīngshījīng)

* White-Elephant-Demon (pinyin: Báixiàngjīng)

* Falcon Demon (Peng Jīng)

* Bikku Country Minister a.k.a Deer Demon

* Gold-Nosed, White Mouse Demon (Lao Shu Jīng)

Notable English-language translations.


* JOURNEY TO THE WEST (Click to buy!) : A complete translation by W. J. F. Jenner published by the Foreign Languages Press in Beijing 1955.

* Journey to the West (1977-1983) : A complete translation in four volumes by Anthony C. Yu - University of Chicago Press.
(would be interested to compare the two, to see the Communist-Approved version..)
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by shravan »

narayanan wrote:{they were sensible then - they knew where the enlightenment was, as modern Chinese migrate to BRF for enlightenment}
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by RajeshA »

China cut to the core by Wu Zhong: Asia Times Online
When a Chinese official recently called on nations around the world to respect China's "core interests", he probably did not expect it would lead to accusations that China's leadership felt its own political survival was more important than the nation's territorial integrity.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by enqyoob »

Many people were angered by Dai seemingly putting the core interest of the survival of the "fundamental system" - meaning the current political and social system - above territorial and sovereignty issues.

"This explains the basic principle of our 'great' interest group," wrote one blogger on Sina.com.cn. "To safeguard the system that serves the group's own interests - our country's territory can be given away, sovereignty can be sold out ... How can 'fundamental system' be mentioned in the same breath as sovereignty and territorial integrity? A system is worthy to be maintained only if it is accepted by the people," said the blogger.

Some even branded Dai a "national traitor" over the comments, likening him to Li Hongzhang (1871-1895), a general and statesman of the late Qing Dynasty who signed treaties in the late 19th century that compensated as well as ceded land to invading powers such as Great Britain and Japan.

"In his [Dai's] words, [the] safety and security of the regime is the number one 'core interest', while territorial integrity is secondary. This shows his true color[s] as a 'national traitor," said a post on Netseas.com. "If Dai Bingguo really said that, he is worse than Li Hongzhang."

There has been no shortage of sarcasm in the online response. "Dai Bingguo is an honest man and he speaks honestly," said one blogger. "Of course, the interests and security of the 'core' group must be put above everything else".

"In other words: what is most important is that the CCP [Chinese Communist Party] remains in power," said another.

"Fundament-al system" evidently means the As*es of the Politburo.

This sort of disrespectful response by these Splittists is shocking. :eek: The whole internet should be sent to the Gobi ReEducation Center! :twisted:
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by enqyoob »

Gee! What happened to the discussion of Ancient Chinese Culture? Don't modern Chinese internet users know any of their own ancestors' legends? Surely there must be a Chinese imitation of the Mahabharatha as well?
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by RayC »

Aside from cuisine, language and the Chinese New Year, is there any thing that today's PRC Han citizen has in common with 'ancient' chinese civilization?
As I see it, the powerful Han Chinese culturalism is what is still there from the time of the Shang Dynasty.

Chinese Communism has capitalised on it!
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by svinayak »

US must respect Pakistan’s strategic interests: Burns

* US, India believe China cannot be contained, should be engaged
http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?pa ... 009_pg7_36
By Iftikhar Gilani

NEW DELHI: One of former US president George W Bush’s top aides on Tuesday urged the US to respect Pakistan’s strategic interests.

Addressing an interactive meeting in India, former US undersecretary of state and architect of the Indo-US nuclear deal, Nicholas Burns, said his country needed to unite with Pakistan to combat extremist groups. Blaming past Pakistani governments for the worsening situation in the region, he said: “US-Pakistan relations are vital to the administration. We have to be friends with Pakistan so we can combat extremist groups. Past governments have been responsible for the worsening of the situation there and now we have to convince Pakistan to do more.”

Burns, who is in India to establish an Indian politics programme at the Harvard Kennedy School where he teaches, said the internal security situation of Pakistan should be a cause for concern for everyone. “There is nothing more important to worry about, than the internal security of Pakistan - it is highly unstable,” he added. However, he said the US and Pakistan needed to respect each other’s strategic interests and take into account regional and global perspectives. He said the US-India civil nuclear cooperation agreement had been a watershed, historically and symbolically, for the two nations. He said it marked the US’ recognition of India’s rise as a global power and “we hope to see the full implementation of the agreement, which could lead to cooperation in other areas”.

Engage, not contain: Burns revealed that America’s focus has shifted to South Asia and the Middle East because of the myriad challenges in these regions. Alluding to China as a rising global power, he said there was consensus in the US and India that it was not possible to contain China, but it was possible to engage with it. He said China should demonstrate greater responsibility and be willing to compromise for the global good.

On the US and India’s relations with Pakistan, Burns said both countries were great nations. However, he added, the US felt it was imperative to have “independent” relations with Islamabad and New Delhi even as it sought to improve bilateral relations between them.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Dhiman »

Also, it seem like a large number of ancient Chinese artifacts, art, books, etc were destroyed during the Cultural Revolution. Very disappointing. According to some sources over 6000 monasteries were destroyed in Tibet itself during that time.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by svinayak »

Dhiman wrote:Also, it seem like a large number of ancient Chinese artifacts, art, books, etc were destroyed during the Cultural Revolution. Very disappointing. According to some sources over 6000 monasteries were destroyed in Tibet itself during that time.
Mao wanted to bomb the main TIbetian monastary
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by asprinzl »

Harbans,
It is not so much Mao but it was the Manchu rulers who sucked the Chinese man's soul almost dry. What was left was devastated by the British first by sending in opium aand then through wars that caused defeat after defeat. What little that was left was further devastated by the attrocities committed by the Japanese and then in the see-saw of combat between Nationalists and Communists. Mao, brought some semblance of stability and quickly filled the several centuries of internal void with his ideology. Mao not so much poisoned the Chinese mind but gave them what was then necessary or at least most saw as necessary. This was short-lived because the Gang of Four came around and started another cycle of mayhem.

The Chinese people sufferred centuries of continous abuse till the coming of Deng Xioping.

It is my sincere hope that China and India overcome their mutual suspicions and troubles and end up as allies. This will shake the world like never before.
Avram
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by RajeshA »

asprinzl wrote:It is my sincere hope that China and India overcome their mutual suspicions and troubles and end up as allies. This will shake the world like never before.
Avram
Once they have restored the traditional buffer states between China and India, and desinicized them - Tibet and East Turkestan.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by harbans »

Shyam, Asprinzl many thanks for the clarifications. So Mao only dug the last nails in the coffin..owever this does clarify that present day Han can hardly call themselves the progenitors of that ancient civilization.

I have always felt that Civilization has to be strong and very ideologicall and philosophically deep rooted to survive. It's value systems must be rooted in some kind of duality without the rigidit that has been seen in succumbed civilizations. It is not for no reason that the Indian civilization is the longest surviving one today, though it has it's strains.

China will flourish once again only if it abandons the concept of Han supremacy and allows Tibet to exist in harmony with itself and with India. I for one, do think that the Chinese people as opposed to the CCP or the PLA have no deep rooted hatred against India or it's people. Once China is well represented at the top by it's people, it will be at peace with itself and it's neighbours. It will find it's ancient roots and place in the sun and certainly as one of the worlds leading countries..but for that it has to abandon the confrontationalist track it's hurtling on right now..
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Dhiman »

It appears at authoritarianism is not new to China. China was authoritarian under short-lived Qin dynasty (221 and 206 BC) as well. The rulers of Qin dynasty subscribed to a philosophy known as "Legalism" which is one of the earliest known totalitarian ideologies. The current Chinese government also subscribe to certain aspects of this philosophy. The basic premise is that all peole are fundamentally flawed and that strict laws and harsh punishment is needed to keep people in order.

Having said this, there are also more "meaningful" philosophies that were/are popular in China:
Confucianism: Complex set of philosophy that delves into morals, ethics, public manners, statecraft, etc. Gives weight to morals and ethics over laws.
Taoism: deals with nonaction, the strength of softness, spontaneity, and relativism. Human attempts to make the world better, actually make the world worse. Therefore it is better to strive for harmony.
Mohism: Everyone must love each other equally and impartially to avoid conflict and war.
Buddhism: We all have a good idea of this.
Falun Gong: Originated in 1992. Supposed to have 100 million followers now. Truthfulness, Compassion, and Forbearance. Assimilate himself or herself to these qualities by letting go of "attachments and notions," thus returning to the "original, true self. Its emblem consists up of Swastika and Yin-Yang.

Also, another common theme that underlined many Chinese dynasties was "Legalism" under the garb of some other philosophical belief such as Confucianism/Buddhism. So there is certainly some historical precedence for current day totalitarian rule in China.

In modern times, all such "alternative" philosophies/practices were outlawed during Cultural revolution by the communist government in order to get rid of the "old way" and usher in the "new way". Recently, some freedom has been given for developed of these thought processes although under heavy monitoring to make sure they are not threatening to CCP control :roll:
Last edited by Dhiman on 19 Aug 2009 12:36, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by vasu_ray »

From my interactions with mainland Chinese, there is subdued dissent against ham handed communist rulers and a strong undercurrent for democracy, they perhaps look upto US

only when India is successful in the economic sphere as a democracy will Chinese people look upto India in their scheme of things and we have some way to go

Tibet may be inspired when we deal with China strongly, however dealing with Chinese people in military terms makes them enemies, in economic terms hopefully inspires them to be a democracy

so, our military posture should always be that they don't feel like drawing the sword, until the communist govt. collapses

Its just a wonder why there is a high degree of disconnect between people and rulers
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by RayC »

China is a large market and so it makes place for strange bedfellows!!

China has suffered nothing.

One has to just read Chinese history and see their Empire building and the zeal they had to make all Hans or Hanhua!

They are failing in Tibet and Xingjiang since times have changed!
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Dhiman »

vasu_ray wrote: only when India is successful in the economic sphere as a democracy will Chinese people look upto India in their scheme of things and we have some way to go
That would certainly be a psychological blow to the CCP and make the undercurrent of democracy in China more severe. Once the CCP goes, the rest should fall in place automatically. All things remaining same, the people would naturally fall on their "natural" beliefs which happens to be quite compatible with Tibetian and Indian value systems. But I doubt that there will be any real security for India as long as this CCP/authoritarian garbage exists in China.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Ben Thomas »

enqyoob
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by enqyoob »

Came in the email.
http://www.dailywealth.com/index.asp?subscribed=yes

DAILY WATCH, AUGUST 18, 2009

What Chinese Authorities Do Not Want You to See

By Tom Dyson

If the Chinese authorities had caught him making this video, they would have arrested him...

Hugh Hendry is a hedge-fund manager from Britain. Eclectica is the name of his fund. He’s outspoken and critical of the establishment. You could say he’s somewhat of a pariah in London’s hedge-fund industry. In 2008, his fund generated 32% by making massive bearish bets...

Earlier this year, Hendry took a trip to Guangzhou, China’s third-largest city after Beijing and Shanghai. There’s been a huge construction boom in China in recent years, and Guangzhou is one of the hot spots. Developers have erected so many skyscrapers, Guangzhou’s central business district could easily match Chicago or Boston for the number of modern, high-rise buildings.

So Hendry shot a video of the office buildings in the district. He focuses on one shiny black skyscraper with a giant neon screen at its base. It’s close to 100 stories... And it’s obviously brand new...

"This is a seriously large building," says Hendry. "We’re talking at least half a billion dollars to construct this thing. It’s empty! Who is going to fill this thing? Who is going to pay the debt that that building is resting on?"

Hendry’s film shows several more skyscrapers... each as large and modern as any new tower you’d find in Manhattan... and they are all completely empty.

"This is astonishing," he concludes... You can watch the whole video here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ektMQGbW3wk).

Thing is, the Chinese are incredibly touchy about foreign journalism. I experienced it first hand when I was in China last year and tried to organize a tour of a factory in Lanzhou. They almost arrested me when they discovered I didn’t have a journalist visa. If the Chinese had known Hendry was filming empty buildings and posting his movie on the web, they would have definitely arrested him...

So why does Guangzhou have so many empty office buildings? It’s because of false market signals. The Chinese government’s inflation and easy-money policies have led developers to build more office space than Guangzhou needs.

Now that the world economy has fallen apart, the malinvestment sticks out like an empty skyscraper.

From the reports I’ve heard, it’s not just Guangzhou. There are now too many factories, too many buildings, and too much infrastructure relative to demand all over China...

Instead of letting the market liquidate these mistakes when the crisis struck, the Chinese government decided to make it even worse. Over the last nine months, it has forced banks to make more terrible loans and encouraged a new batch of unnecessary construction. A second China bubble has formed. You can see this second bubble in this chart of Shanghai’s stock market index. It rose over 100% between November 2008 and July 2009. (To see the chart please click: http://www.dailywealth.com/index.asp?subscribed=yes)

But that bubble may be about to end... Three weeks ago, the Shanghai stock market reached a peak and started falling. Now we have the downtrend. We have a fantastic opportunity to short this bubble and make a fortune as the new Chinese miracle falls apart...

There are a lot of ways to go about shorting China. You can sell short commodities like copper and oil. Chinese stocks and commodities tend to trade along with each other. You can also short the big Chinese stock ETF (FXI) or buy an "inverse fund" that profits when Chinese stocks fall. The symbol here is FXP.

Good investing,

Tom
Capitalist Imperialist hallucinations! If the skyscrapers are empty, it is because the Chinese ANTICIPATED demand and built the things while construction costs are less than 1/10 of what they are GOING to be.

The debt used to build it is, well... dollars supplied by the round-eyes. The building is of steel, concrete and class. Which do you think is the better investment? Debt only hurts if the borrower has to pay it back. What are they going to do? Refuse to lend any more to the People's Liberation Army? :rotfl:
Liu
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Liu »

Dhiman wrote:It appears at authoritarianism is not new to China. China was authoritarian under short-lived Qin dynasty (221 and 206 BC) as well. The rulers of Qin dynasty subscribed to a philosophy known as "Legalism" which is one of the earliest known totalitarian ideologies. The current Chinese government also subscribe to certain aspects of this philosophy. The basic premise is that all peole are fundamentally flawed and that strict laws and harsh punishment is needed to keep people in order.

Having said this, there are also more "meaningful" philosophies that were/are popular in China:
Confucianism: Complex set of philosophy that delves into morals, ethics, public manners, statecraft, etc. Gives weight to morals and ethics over laws.
Taoism: deals with nonaction, the strength of softness, spontaneity, and relativism. Human attempts to make the world better, actually make the world worse. Therefore it is better to strive for harmony.
Mohism: Everyone must love each other equally and impartially to avoid conflict and war.
Buddhism: We all have a good idea of this.
[b]Falun Gong: Originated in 1992. Supposed to have 100 million followers now. Truthfulness, Compassion, and Forbearance. Assimilate himself or herself to these qualities by letting go of "attachments and notions," thus returning to the "original, true self. Its emblem consists up of Swastika and Yin-Yang.

Also, another common theme that underlined many Chinese dynasties was "Legalism" under the garb of some other philosophical belief such as Confucianism/Buddhism. So there is certainly some historical precedence for current day totalitarian rule in China.

In modern times, all such "alternative" philosophies/practices were outlawed during Cultural revolution by the communist government in order to get rid of the "old way" and usher in the "new way". Recently, some freedom has been given for developed of these thought processes although under heavy monitoring to make sure they are not threatening to CCP control :roll:[/b]
I did think that it is a absolute insult to chinese culture that you put the cult of Falun Gong in the same league of great chinese philosophies like Confucian
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by RajeshA »

Liu wrote:I did think that it is a absolute insult to chinese culture that you put the cult of Falun Gong in the same league of great chinese philosophies like Confucian
Why what is wrong with Falun Gong? Why is it insulting?
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by shravan »

RajeshA wrote:Why what is wrong with Falun Gong? Why is it insulting?
RajeshA Ji,

She has come here to learn. Please don't ask stupid questions.. :((
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by enqyoob »

Liu, this is something I have never understood: the hostility of the Chinese govt towards the Falun Gong.
From their outward declarations, these people seem to believe in the same principles as Buddha. And I don't see any accusations that they have practised violence. Why then is the powerful government of China so afraid of them? I mean, from all I see, they are treated with savage inhuman (except Chinese) brutality.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by RayC »

A view of Chinese empire building:

The feudal Zhou Dynasty eventually broke apart into individual city states, creating the Warring States period. In 221 BCE, Qin Shi Huang united the various warring kingdoms and created the first Chinese empire.

Everyone who was not a Han (the inner people) was a barbarian (outer people). Of the barbarians, they were of two types - the raw and the cooked.

The 'raw' barbarians (shegfan) have to be 'cooked' (shufan) by Chinese civilization. This conscious assimilationism allows the emergence of an empire that progresses as much by cultural contagion as by colonization and military conquest.

For instance, the Li from Hainan were classified as shengfan (the ones who refused to be Hanised) and the Shufan, the Li of the coastal region who were timid and were ready to subjugate themselves to the Hans.

That is what the Chinese are attempting in Tibet and Xinjiang where they are 'raw' and are refusing to be Hanised and thus 'cooked'. Empire building by obliterating the past heritage, history, lineage, culture, language etc.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by enqyoob »

Excuse my ignorance, but isn't "Han" a derivative of "KHan"? Which is the purer form? IOW, are the Han descendants of Pakis or vice versa? No wonder they are on such good terms!
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by shravan »

narayanan wrote: but isn't "Han" a derivative of "KHan"? Which is the purer form?
I think it is true.

Found this information. Can someone explain :?:
link
According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the word han in English is an ancient form of Khan which is the turkish word meaning lord, or price, but originated in Tartars......Clearly the Chinese character Han derives from the sound of what the rulers called themselves Han (Khan) in their mother tongue. This pictophonetic character is a phonogram for water, representing the Mongolian sound of han. Therefore, the original Han people signifies the people of sinicized Huns or barbarisan Mongols without constituting an overwhelming majority of the population and the dominant cultural group in China....}
--------
This is what bothers me. The Mongolian "Khan" (or "Han") is only a sound that happen to be same as the Han people. Khan as in Gingis Khan is written in word as "sweat" which is only a phonetic translation. It surely means prince or lord, but it is totally way off from what the Chinese "Han" was from.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by enqyoob »

Oh! So "(k)Han" means "Little Lawd Fauntleroy" eh? Figures... :mrgreen:
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Liu »

narayanan wrote:Liu, this is something I have never understood: the hostility of the Chinese govt towards the Falun Gong.
From their outward declarations, these people seem to believe in the same principles as Buddha. And I don't see any accusations that they have practised violence. Why then is the powerful government of China so afraid of them? I mean, from all I see, they are treated with savage inhuman (except Chinese) brutality.
I dislike Fa Lungong ,not because CPC dislike it,just because I don't like any cult.

well, CPC like Lenin, but I don't like Lenin.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by archan »

^^
If you don't mind me asking..
1) So how do you define a cult?
2) What is it that they do that makes you dislike them?
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by shravan »

Cyber-dissident Zhang Lin released on completing five-year jail term
Published on 18 August 2009

Reporters Without Borders welcomes the release of the well-known blogger and pro-democracy activist Zhang Lin on 12 August on completing a five-year sentence for posting articles online that were deemed to be “contrary to the bases of the constitution” and “a danger to national security.”

“We are glad that Zhang Lin has been able to rejoin his wife and family,” Reporters Without Borders said. “His release is a relief but we cannot forget the other prisoners of opinion held by the Chinese government and we urge the authorities to free all the journalists and bloggers who have been convicted for using their right to free expression under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which China has signed.”

Arrested illegally on 29 January 2005 in the eastern province of Anhui, where is from, Zhang was initially placed in “administrative detention.” He was then accused of threatening the country’s security by means of the articles he posted online and was given the five-year sentence on 14 October 2005.

Zhang often posted articles on websites linked to the Falun Gong spiritual movement such as Dajiyuan.com and Epochtimes.com, as well as Boxun.com, a website about human rights in China. He was imprisoned from 1989 to 1991, and again from 1995 to 1998, when he was sentenced to hard labour. :cry:

He then left for the United States to pursue his political activities, but reentered China clandestinely a few months later and was rearrested a third time :lol: , at which point he was sent to a labour camp until 2001. In all, he has spent 13 years in detention.

At least 59 cyber-dissidents and 30 journalists are currently held in China in violation of the right to free expression. The latest bloggers to be detained include Ilham Tohti and Tan Zuoren. Their imprisonment is direct evidence of the censorship practiced by the Chinese government.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by ramana »

RayC wrote:A view of Chinese empire building:

The feudal Zhou Dynasty eventually broke apart into individual city states, creating the Warring States period. In 221 BCE, Qin Shi Huang united the various warring kingdoms and created the first Chinese empire.

Everyone who was not a Han (the inner people) was a barbarian (outer people). Of the barbarians, they were of two types - the raw and the cooked.

The 'raw' barbarians (shegfan) have to be 'cooked' (shufan) by Chinese civilization. This conscious assimilationism allows the emergence of an empire that progresses as much by cultural contagion as by colonization and military conquest.

For instance, the Li from Hainan were classified as shengfan (the ones who refused to be Hanised) and the Shufan, the Li of the coastal region who were timid and were ready to subjugate themselves to the Hans.

That is what the Chinese are attempting in Tibet and Xinjiang where they are 'raw' and are refusing to be Hanised and thus 'cooked'. Empire building by obliterating the past heritage, history, lineage, culture, language etc.
During the "Great Leap Forward", Mao was doing the same and obliterating all Indic traces in name of modernization. many Buddhist temples and statues of Boddhisatvas were destroyed. IOW Mao in guise of Communism was re-Hanifying the China.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by BijuShet »

Liu wrote:
Dhiman wrote:...
Falun Gong: Originated in 1992. Supposed to have 100 million followers now. Truthfulness, Compassion, and Forbearance. Assimilate himself or herself to these qualities by letting go of "attachments and notions," thus returning to the "original, true self. Its emblem consists up of Swastika and Yin-Yang.
...
I did think that it is a absolute insult to chinese culture that you put the cult of Falun Gong in the same league of great chinese philosophies like Confucian
100 million followers is not a cult dude.
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by enqyoob »

Liu writes:
I dislike Fa Lungong ,not because CPC dislike it,just because I don't like any cult.

well, CPC like Lenin, but I don't like Lenin.
Ah, but I wasn't really asking whether you personally like or dislike the Falun Gong. I want to know why the PRC govt treats them so brutally - what is it that they do, that merits such treatment?
You do seem to know a lot about them, to decide whether to like or dislike them, and declare them a "cult". But a "cult" is some group of people that adopts a certain cult-ure, hey? Is it part of Chinese cult-ure to hate cults? Why? Because they have cult-ure? Or is it part of Chinese culture to hate someone because the Govt. hates them? Surely the Falun Gong must have done something terrible to be so hated? Do they eat their own children? Other people's children? What else merits such hate? I am really curious about this, because the many images and stories on the internet about what has been done to them, are absolutely horrible.

Another question - I am so curious about China, please excuse me!

In the "Monkey" story that I quoted above (this is honestly the first I am seeing anything about this, and realizing the extent of India-China contact in ancient times!) there seem to be the usual "stereotypes":
1. The hero
2. The monks
3. The Wise Men/ Masters
4. Martial arts
5. Dragons and monsters
6. Magic

But... NO romance, no love stories, no WOMEN! Its all stories of predators and mutual destruction. How come? These stories sound like the sort I used to eat up when I was, well... too stupid to realize that I should sign Peace and Friendship and Cooperation treaties with the girls in my class, not just Mutually Assured Punishment standoffs. What cultural / moral lessons are derived from such stories other than a cult-ure of martial arts and macho? Unfortunately, in such oversimplified "culture" models, it is all too easy to demonize anyone who is slightly different from the Majority (K-Hans?) and decide that they are just "cults" who should be beaten, imprisoned, tortured and killed. Is this an accurate model of Chinese cult-ure? How can it be, if Budhism became so popular there? Or are Buddhists considered a "cult" too?

The difference with Indian culture could not be more dramatic! Indian epics are filled with family-level lessons of love and faith and dedication and worship and kindness. War when it occurs, is an absolute last resort, not something that anyone looks forward to. Martial arts are practised by a very few. So the whole emphasis of the stories is very very different.

Did the western translators completely misrepresent the Chinese epics?
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by RayC »

Liu wrote:
narayanan wrote:Liu, this is something I have never understood: the hostility of the Chinese govt towards the Falun Gong.
From their outward declarations, these people seem to believe in the same principles as Buddha. And I don't see any accusations that they have practised violence. Why then is the powerful government of China so afraid of them? I mean, from all I see, they are treated with savage inhuman (except Chinese) brutality.
I dislike Fa Lungong ,not because CPC dislike it,just because I don't like any cult.

well, CPC like Lenin, but I don't like Lenin.
I like Lenin.

He was leaning on the absurd - Communism.

And I also like John Lenon!! :rotfl:
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Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by enqyoob »

I wonder how Marx-ism is not a "cult" but Falun Gong is.. maybe because Marxism has no culture?
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