Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Aug 2009 11:41

well ! one aspect to take care of Judgement Day - no argument that A3SL tipped with flowers is the onlee soln.

but most Indo-China wars are likely to remain below nuclear threshold. many of us want to explore ways and means to to give them a conventional thrashing and thats where nirbhays, ALCM trucks et al come in.

chicken tandoori is fine, but we need the daily rice, roti and daal too.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 20 Aug 2009 12:07

Thanks Singhaji, if the C-130's are getting some sort of SAM/AAM immunity, those can be applied to these 'converted' bombers too

Even AADs can be loaded onto them doing CAP missions as Narayanji pointed out some time earlier

Ideally, we can hope for development of supersonic bombers, knowing where we are currently in the aerospace sector, its not going to be 'quick'

prabhug · Post by **prabhug** » 20 Aug 2009 19:19

Hi
A Topic out of discussion.What happened to Akash ? Will it make into the Army ? Will IAF go for more ?.I have a doubt regarding the spyder system ? How good is Air-to-Air missile in a Surface to air duty ? Sorry if i am very naive

Prabhu.G

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 20 Aug 2009 21:14

Singha wrote:well ! one aspect to take care of Judgement Day - no argument that A3SL tipped with flowers is the onlee soln.

but most Indo-China wars are likely to remain below nuclear threshold. many of us want to explore ways and means to to give them a conventional thrashing and thats where nirbhays, ALCM trucks et al come in.

chicken tandoori is fine, but we need the daily rice, roti and daal too.

Singha saab: In case of war with China, India will destroy one of the 3 Gorge dam using conventional 1.5 tonne conventional bum(s). The destruction on China will be more catastrophic then 10 Thermo Nukes. So IMHO there is no middle ground in escalation; nuclear or otherwise.

Thus one must go for the big stick first, and save the money and effort of beating around the bush.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Aug 2009 21:40

I dont think the leadership in delhi will authorize something that
will clearly cause so many civilian deaths and far away from the
war frontier.

its a stretch given the current stds to even authorize SLCM strikes
on east coast infra even if magically we had a few Oscar2's
on patrol in the pacific.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 20 Aug 2009 22:29

I do believe that planning for the worst case scenario should always be a priority. In that context, when discussing Nirbhay and SSGN, I had stated that the SSGN would come after the SSBN. Though not stated, by the same logic A3/A3SL should take priority over any other missile development and if we have adequate resources may run in parallel.

At the end of the day, the Gov. will be willing to support x # of N Warhead, y # of Delivery systems and z # of SSBN. Once this demand is met or money for the same has been planned even if the developments are still continuing, the focus will shift to the next thing on the list.

Now this is where the difference of opinion crops up. Some may say that the worst case planning is over, all we need to do is implement the plan, remain vigilant, etc. Some of us are trying to go to the next item in the list and work on the feasibility of deployment of the said weapon. Now it may happen that all of us are building castles in the air (regarding Nirbhay). The gov. may have other plans or some of the platforms like SSGN/Bomber may be too expensive for India and my never materialize.
JMT

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 21 Aug 2009 01:31

Which would be more expensive?
a. Laser ring gyro equipped Shaurya
b. SAR / radar scene correlation equipped 2000Km Nirbhay.

One of these needs to be mass produced in say numbers of ~ 2000, equipped with conventional warheads and with ranges of ~2000 Km and deployed.

By that same account, 2 oscars class subs with 1500-2000Km cruise missiles will result in unusual bonhomie and good relations from our chinese brothers.

As long as china sees an imbalance in conventional forces, it will play naughty on the borders.

Having a conventional force level which can mete out swift punishment to severely deter (not stop) china will result in all issues being amicable resolved, atleast the J&K (Minus the shaksgam valley) and the Uttranchal-Tibet borders. The arunachal border issue is here to stay.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 22 Aug 2009 13:56

MAKS 2009: BrahMos exports only after Indian forces fully equipped

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 Aug 2009 14:18

By that same account, 2 oscars class subs with 1500-2000Km cruise missiles will result in unusual bonhomie and good relations from our chinese brothers.

where will they operate from and target what ?

how will they get to that location ? without any protective screen these will be essentially single use suicide weapons.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Aug 2009 17:37

dinesha wrote:MAKS 2009: BrahMos exports only after Indian forces fully equipped

I feel GOI and Brahmos corp should ban the sale of this missile for a decade and just purchase for their respective armed forces , this is a niche missile and ace of spade.

I do not know of any country working on Brahmos type missile and who are keen to export ,let the world be happy with subsonic missile and we keep supersonic Brahmos to ourself and have fun

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 22 Aug 2009 18:13

Arun_S wrote:Singha saab: In case of war with China, India will destroy one of the 3 Gorge dam using conventional 1.5 tonne conventional bum(s). The destruction on China will be more catastrophic then 10 Thermo Nukes. So IMHO there is no middle ground in escalation; nuclear or otherwise.

Thus one must go for the big stick first, and save the money and effort of beating around the bush.

Well said, if China is planning a joint strike with Pakis then we have no choice but to bring out big stick. The problem though may be that our stick is not big enough.

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 22 Aug 2009 18:34

I am sure any airforce will have priorities on which enemy targets to bomb first. Compared to the landmass of the enemy the number of targets that can be hit will be very few. Its actually quite clear. Hit the weakest link so the chain breaks. The point here is "intelligence" and not strength from numbers.

Does india have the intel to deliver a warning strike .... hell yea.

Intel is a very powerful force multiplier. And indians at brainpower or deduction are one of the best. I may be speculating here but usually the enemy itself will not know the weakest link in its chain. This knowledge could come only from intel and experienced commanders.

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 22 Aug 2009 23:39

KrishG wrote:Army acquires anti-aircraft missiles

http://www.timesnow.tv/Army-acquires-an ... 325059.cms

The defence acquisition council, headed by Defence Minister AK Antony and comprising the 3 service chiefs, agreed to a multi-billion dollar contract for Israeli anti-aircraft missiles.........The Spyder is a low-level quick-reaction surface-to-air missile system capable of engaging aircraft, helicopters, unmanned air vehicles, drones and precision-guided munitions. The Spyder system has 360 degree engagement capability and the missiles can be launched from full-readiness state in less than five seconds after a target is acquired.........The Spyder's kill range is from less than 1km to more than 35 km and at altitudes from a minimum of 20 metres to a maximum of 9 kilometres.
Was in the pipeline for a long time.

Navy has orderd Barak-1. IAF ordered 18 batteries of Spyder and now a new deal in which Army orders Billion dollars of Spyder MR missiles. Akash is dead. Long live DRDO!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Aug 2009 23:51

Akash will die a silent death , when Spider , Buttock starts entering in numbers , the defence service will forget if there was something called Akash.India deserves what it gets

John · Post by **John** » 23 Aug 2009 00:29

Akash was good start but IMO the system was dated especially when countering what the Chinese had. But Akash R&D should give DRDO the experience needed for development of MRSAM.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 23 Aug 2009 00:40

so why does this recommendation come after the purchase of the spyder system? Is IAF so short sighted to only look from tendering to deployment?

John · Post by **John** » 23 Aug 2009 00:51

vasu_ray wrote:so why does this recommendation come after the purchase of the spyder system? Is IAF so short sighted to only look from tendering to deployment?

Missed that what are you referring to?

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 23 Aug 2009 01:00

The recommendation that

John wrote:Akash R&D should give DRDO the experience needed for development of MRSAM

why didn't they give the requirement of developing an MRSAM to DRDO when the need was visualized?

John · Post by **John** » 23 Aug 2009 01:09

MRSAM is co development with Israel from what i understand it will land based version of Barak-8 with few changes (based on models it looked larger). As for why it took this long? Barak-8 development didn't even start till IN decided to fund it (after RSN decided to go with Aster 15) and success of brahmos changed GoI view on joint ventures. As for Spyder it will replace SA-8/13 where as MRSAM will replace SA-3 and SA-6 (originally to be replaced by Akash).

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 24 Aug 2009 00:10

Akash uses scram-jet while MR-SAM doesn't, so using it as a platform for the MRSAM seems questionable

And how the MRSAM would be different from AAD?, the former will have range and cost advantages while AAD is for speed and altitude?

the tests that were conducted with Akash in recent times, were they conducted with Spyder as well? and what happens to the powered phase until interception advantage of Akash?

John · Post by **John** » 24 Aug 2009 00:21

Akash uses ramjet not scramjet and MRSAM is not based on Akash it is based on Barak-8. It may share use some tech from Akash such as 3D CAR radar and so on. As for AAD no idea how it fills perhaps fill in the need for long range SAM?

As for your question I don't understand what you mean by powered phase until interception advantage.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 24 Aug 2009 00:28

I think Akash and SpYder are mostly complimentary.

IMHO Aksah due to its ram booster has limited short range engagement capability and its outer range and altitude is much more than SpYder.

I think SpYder is more a replacement of Trishul, as short range point defense, and Akash as zone defense around the point defense.

I think Akash can be viable ABM to take down short range ding-dong missiles of 90-200 km range. But IMHO the most important application of Aksah will be in long range CM defense and Anti-drone missile. Just need to be linked to sensor network fed by multi-static radars and AEW.

I will not be surprised if the Fauji's get dazzled by imported "Gori" equivalent of Aksh and bury the very capable Akash under a pile of money.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 24 Aug 2009 00:52

yes its ramjet, typo ...

a normal SAM will have powered phase only for a part of its flight range, rest of the distance to the target is covered by coasting, while Akash will have powered flight until interception

were there SpYder evaluation trials? and does it outdo Akash wrt range?

As Arun saar says, given access to MRSAM, Akash instead of being enhanced into an MRSAM role, will be ditched

John · Post by **John** » 24 Aug 2009 00:55

Arun_S,
What makes you say that its altitude and range is greater than Spyder? Spyder MR's range is listed at 45 km where as info on Akash/SA-6 solid propellant ramjet indicates it only has 20 seconds burn duration. Unlike Yakhont/Brahmos' ramjet which is over 300 seconds, Akash re engined with Brahmos ramjet would be a beast.

"The centre fuselage contains the gas generator fuel charge for the solid propellant ramjet operation. The 9D16K sustainer solid gas generator charge comprising 67 kg of LK-6TM reducing propellant is ignited and the hot gas discharge vents into the combustion chamber, where it is mixed with air to burn and generate sustainer thrust. Burn duration is ~20 seconds, during which the missile accelerates to a peak velocity of ~2.8 Mach. Russian sources claim that the sustainer cannot be throttled and as a result this limits choices in missile trajectories."

vasu_ray,
i do not think IA has tested Sypder MR yet? so we are going in blind in this one.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 24 Aug 2009 00:57

vasu_ray wrote:yes its ramjet, typo ...

I understand Akash missile very well. No typo. I meant booster required to get the missile into ramjet mode.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 24 Aug 2009 01:08

Just because the missile's first name is the same, doesn't mean they are one and the same missile.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 24 Aug 2009 01:13

ok, few clarifications,

Arun saar,
Akash ramjet correction is when I said its a scramjet by mistake, I know you meant booster to get the Akash to ramjet mode

John,
SpYder MR = MRSAM? the question is comparison between SpYder (NOT MRSAM) and Akash wrt range

Brahmos has 290km range, are you talking about efficiency of Akash vs. Brahmos ramjets or just burn duration of the ramjet?

with suitable radars, and increasing the burn duration helps Akash achieve full MRSAM role? and can IA go blind on this one too?

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 24 Aug 2009 02:32

Arun_S is right. SPYDER is a replacement of Trishul system. This was clear as crystal on BRF say 2 or 3 years ago. Today some confused DDM reports have generated so much fuss, I can't believe that. These reports would have been dismissed within 2 or 3 posts itself back then.

The story goes like this: Indian Air force wanted Trishul as its LLQRM system but DRDO failed to deliver it. Consequently, IAF decided to conduct test of VL-MICA system from MBDA and SPYDER from Rafael. SPYDER was chosen over MICA. Following that Army got interested in SPYDER as well. And today Army is ordering it.

SPYDER is LLQRM and so is VL-MICA. Initially, SPYDER was just a short ranged missile system. Rafael decided to add boosters to Python-5 and Derby to give them longer range and hence develop a MR SAM. They knew that for medium range engagements they will need a more powerful radar [than Elta EL/M 2106 ATAR 3D surveillance radar used in SPYDER SR] so land based variant of MF STAR currently under development for Barak-8 was proposed as a replacement prospect.

So far there are no takers for SPYDER-MR. Indian armed forces are more interested in Land based variant of Barak-8 missile system for their MR SAM requirements. SPYDER-MR will most likely not see light just like Trishul system.

Check for MR and SR versions of SPYDER.
http://www.rafael.co.il/marketing/SIP_S ... /0/920.pdf

Again this is from Rafael's official site about SPYDER SR which we have ordered:
http://www.rafael.co.il/marketing/area. ... &docID=704

The intercept envelope of the SPYDER system spans from less than 1km to 15 km, against targets flying at altitudes between 20 m and 9,000 m.

In other words its LLQRM and a replacement for Trishul. Note another benefit of SPYDER SR. These missiles are dual purpose missiles. Same can be used in Air to Air mode as well as in Surface to Air mode. Meaning if IAF wants their fighters can fire them.

Akash system has an intercept range of 30 kms, double that of SPYDER SR. So they don't eat into each others territory.

Indian missile defence system configuration goes like this:

LLQRM -- SPYDER SR range less than 1km to 15 kms.
Akash -- 30 kms. [Optimized for interception around this range figure: http://www.akashsam.com/combatequipment.htm]
Barak-8 Land based MR SAM -- Upto 70 kms. [Taking figure from reports on Barak-8 for Navy].
PAD -- Exoatmosphere ballistic missile interception
AAD -- Endoatmospere ballistic missile interception

Of course there are further enhancements being planned for PAD and AAD.

All this was crystal clear on BRF 2 or 3 years ago thanks to people like JCage. But today our knowledge standards have deteriorated. Stupid DDM reports can create much fuss for nothing.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 24 Aug 2009 02:45

sumeet, presence of people like you can go a long way in rectifying the situation too right ?

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 24 Aug 2009 03:06

Rahul

sorry if my post came out as arrogant. I don't intend that at all. But, I really feel hurt to see standards of mil tech forum decline from what it used to be earlier [The JCage era].

He, Arun_S, austin, GJ and some others have contributed immensely to my knowledge apart from my personal research.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 24 Aug 2009 03:16

Some info on Akash's IIR propulsion system.

http://www.akashsam.com/about.htm

Akash surface-to-air missile has a launch weight of 720kg, diameter 350mm and a length of 5.8m. Its integral Ram Rocket propulsion provides all the way thrusting to a range of 25-30 km with a velocity of 600-700m/s from 1.5 km onwards.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 24 Aug 2009 03:16

boss, the drop in standard is felt by all old-timers, not just you. there is no arrogance in your post.
I was only requesting you to frequent these haunts more often, that's all.
regards.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 24 Aug 2009 03:30

As you order sir.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 24 Aug 2009 03:38

this article http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=11159 mentions 1-35km range for SpYder, although the altitude ceiling is mentioned as 9km

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 24 Aug 2009 03:44

Vasu,

Check out figures from official source: Rafael. Both Israeli and Indian media is all confused.
http://www.rafael.co.il/marketing/SIP_S ... /0/920.pdf

Please go through my post to see how confusion is generated:

SPYDER SR is for Army's LLQRM requirement and Akash could well be its lower end MR SAM with higher range MR SAM requirement being taken by land based variant of Barak-8.

Army says yes to 'world-class' missile

Pinaki Bhattacharya
New Delhi, August 1, 2009

The Army has finally said yes to the Akash area air defence missile system. It recently expressed interest in acquiring the 30-km range missile to the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

The Army's wishlist also includes a surface-to-air 50-km range missile and a low-level quick reaction missile for ranges less than 15 km.

Point A: Army needs LLQRM for range < 15 kms and a MR SAM range ~ 50 kms.

See how DDM and even Israeli version of DDM generate confusion:

http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/ ... 83&fid=942

Rafael agrees huge deal with Indian Army - report
The Indian cabinet has reportedly approved the supply of Spyder anti-aircraft systems by Rafael worth $1 billion.
Shay Niv20 Aug 09 12:26

The Indian press reports that Rafael Armament Development Authority has agreed a huge deal with the Indian Army to supply advanced anti-aircraft systems with a range of up to 45 kilometers. The deal, worth $1 billion, was reportedly approved by the Indian cabinet yesterday.

Rafael will supply the Indian army with its Spyder low-level quick-reaction surface-to-air missile system capable of engaging aircraft, helicopters, unmanned air vehicles, drones and precision-guided munitions.

Point B: Media knows on August 1st army's requirement. But here they confuse MR and SR version of SPYDER. The deal between Rafael and IA is for LLQRM requirement for which SPYDR SR fits in. So while reporting that deal they give figures for SPYDER MR. Others like the article you quoted think its just one SPYDER system so the range values they give from less than 1 to over 35 kms. All this confusion is result of lack of proper research. All that they need to do is go to Rafael's site and learn about SPYDER

I repeat Now whoever has gone through official Rafael documentation of SYPDER MR and SR given in my previous post will know how DDM is confusing the SR and MR version. They are quoting figures for MR while talking about supply of SR version of the system. Indian Army and Air Force are very clear about their requirements. There is a long term vision and planning that they are following. Its only DDM that doesnt gets it. Anyways who expects them to learn ?

Point C:Now someone sees this figure of 45 kms and generates non sense about Akash being ditched. The story gets more embellished and circulated in various media reports till it reaches BRF mil tech forum and generates fuss here.

Points A, B and C should make it clear how messed up DDM ends up fussing up missile tech thread on BRF. This wouldn't be possible in the old days.

All new comers, one of the reason why BRF mil tech maintained a high standard years ago was because people on this forum would do some ORIGINAL research into filtering through all this nonsense in the process increasing their own knowledge base. Then when they would post at BRF, it would increase our knowledge and show us the way to read through all this confusion.

John · Post by **John** » 24 Aug 2009 03:57

Sumeet
From what i see there are two seperate order one was the early tender to replace SA-8/13 which will be Spyder SR for 260 million, the second order worth 1 billion is the Spyder-MR. Both use the same missile (Python/Derby) but the latter has improved radar (so missile does not need to lock on to target prior to launch) and uses vertical launch to increase the range. Spyder MR has nothing to do with MR SAM.

Spyder MR vs SR comparison

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 24 Aug 2009 04:08

John,

There is no order for SPYDER MR as far as I know [anywhere in the world including Israel]. MR was a cheap solution from Rafael to get into MR Air defense system market. No one fell for this marketing ploy.

Check article below. Both IAF and IA are interested in this system. Read Dr. Prahlad's statement. It is being specifically developed for IA and IAF will also use it for their MR SAM requirement.

There is absolutely no sense in signing SPYDER MR deal. SPYDER MR is in direct conflict with MR SAM defense envelope.

India, Israel to co-develop medium-range SAM system

24 February 2009

New Delhi: India and Israel will jointly develop a medium-range surface-to-air missile (MR-SAM) in a bid to counter emerging and existing threats to cities and important installations in their countries from enemy aircraft and missiles.

Akash missile "We are jointly developing a 70-km range MR-SAM in partnership with Israeli companies," senior DRDO scientist Dr Prahlad told reporters on the sidelines of a DRDO function here.

"We may take around 12 years but the requirement of the services is that they want it (MR-SAM) fast. The only way to make it four to five years is to partner with a country which has already developed some of the hardware. If they have got some hardware and we have got some knowledge, we can do it in 4-5 years," Dr Prahlad said.

Dr Prahalad added that the DRDO had already developed indigenous air defence systems, such as the Trishul and the Akash. The latter did not fit the bill for the MR-SAM project as its range was only 30 km, while the services had posited teh requirement for a missile system with a range of 70 km.

He said MR-SAM systems would be deployed for the security of the National Capital Region as well as for securing nuclear installations across the country.

MR/LR-SAM
The medium range and long range surface-to-air system (MR/LR-SAM) is an Rs10,000 crore (approximately $2.5 billion) project for use by India's land forces. As it did in its development of the PJ-10 BrahMos supersonic cruise missile, a joint venture with Russia, India hopes to create a breakthrough in SAM technologies through a joint venture with Israel.

RAFAEL would be the prime contractor operating under the auspices of the Israel Aircraft Industries. Reports in the media over the previous five months have suggested that a $260 million contract with this Israeli firm would involve the supply of 18 SPYDER systems, with deliveries running through early 2011 to August 2012.

The MR/LR-SAM systems will address critical air defence weaknesses and upgrade "protection of vital and strategic ground assets and area air defence."

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) will be the 'prime developer' for the project which will have a Rs2,300 crore indigenous component. IAI will contribute applicable technology, the same as Russia did for the BrahMos by offering its SS-N-26 Oniks missile as the base platform.

The MR/LR-SAM may surpass even the BrahMos to become the largest joint defence development project ever undertaken by India with any other country.

Running over a time span of 4-5 years the project seeks to provide Indian land forces with at least nine advanced air defence squadrons initially, each with two MR-SAM firing units.

Again, reports would suggest that through the development programme IAI and its Israeli partners will transfer all relevant technologies and manufacturing capabilities to India. The 4-year, $300 million system design and development phase will develop unique system elements and also an initial tranche of the land-based missiles.

The plan for our missile defense system has been fixed and this is how it looks:

LLQRM -- SPYDER SR range less than 1km to 15 kms.
Akash -- 20- 30 kms. [Optimized for interception around this range figure: http://www.akashsam.com/combatequipment.htm. of course it can intercept between 15-20 as well. Engagement altitude is higher than SPYDER SR.]
Barak-8 Land based MR SAM -- Upto 70 kms. [30 kms to 70 kms is exclusively for MR SAM. Don't know altitude figures].
PAD -- Exoatmosphere ballistic missile interception
AAD -- Endoatmospere ballistic missile interception

Of course there are further enhancements being planned for PAD and AAD. The only place an unplanned [according to above plan] procurement can be made will be in DDM's fantasy land.

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 24 Aug 2009 04:16

Sumeet,

Thanks. I'm consistently amazed by the quality of the information here in this forum. Is there a way that the information in your post could be added to B-R's Missile Section (or whichever the appropriate place would be)? Most journalists from around the world simply copy-and-paste for their articles; if they're going to do so, well, let them copy-and-paste from B-R. At least they'd be spreading accurate information.

There are many people who have an interest in the Indian military but don't have the time to do the sort of original research that you've done. For instance, I'm an Indian Orthodox theologian with an interest in ethics and national-security issues. I visit B-R fairly often, but I was under the impression that the Spyder and the Akash directly competed with each other. I'm happy to learn that they don't.

I have a question for you. Why haven't we ordered more of the Akash? My understanding is that India's current surface-to-air missiles urgently need to be replaced.

John · Post by **John** » 24 Aug 2009 04:18

Sumeet,
No idea about the co development and whether it make sense but even IAI press release and Janes are reporting this could be all misunderstanding we will never now till we induct the system. That said if we procuring Spyder-SR just as well purchase MR which offer 360 degree coverage and improved range.

Akash -- 20- 30 kms. [Optimized for interception around this range figure: http://www.akashsam.com/combatequipment.htm. of course it can intercept between 15-20 as well. Engagement altitude is higher than SPYDER SR.]

I don't see the need for this if Barak-8 can provide medium range coverage and replace SA-3/6 unless as fall back plan if MRSAM runs into problem.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 24 Aug 2009 05:59

John,

Co development of Land based Medium range SAM system is a sure thing. Indian and Israeli Navies will use Naval Barak-8 System. Its land based version is chosen to be Indian's land based forces future MR SAM.

Dr. Prahalad has already clarified that. Here is IAI Press Release. Also, you said IAI Press release is contradicting it, please show me that release.

Source 1: IAI Press Release

IAI Signs Contract to Develop and Supply Land-Based Barak 8

Jun 10, 2009

Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) has recently signed a contract to develop and supply the land-based Barak 8 Air and Missile Defense (AMD) System to a foreign customer.

The Barak 8 AMD, an advanced all-weather, day/night system capable of multiple simultaneous engagements in complex scenarios, provides a 360° defense against a wide variety of airborne platforms and munitions from short and medium ranges. The land-based system is based on the Naval Barak 8 AMD system that has been sold to the Israeli Navy and to foreign customers.

Itzhak Nissan, IAI's President and CEO said: "We are very proud of the Barak 8 AMD system. IAI employed its technological and experiential knowledge – based on both the Naval Barak 8 AMD system, and on its four decades of work in the aerospace field – to reach this significant accomplishment. The system is composed of a combination of IAI-manufactured products, creating a powerful system which can be a cornerstone to any defense plan."

The Barak 8 AMD system includes a unique battle management, command, control, communication and intelligence center (BMC4I); an interceptor; and a Land-Based Multi-Function Surveillance, Track & Guidance Radar (LB-MF-STAR). The BMC4I, produced by the MBT Division of IAI's Missiles, Systems, and Space Group, offers both stand alone operation for a single fire unit, and joint task force coordination (JTC). The JTC mode allows for the synergy of all available resources, giving the user maximum operational flexibility. The Barak 8 interceptor, developed in collaboration with RAFAEL Advanced Defense Systems Ltd., can intercept at short and medium ranges. It is dual pulsed and has an advanced seeker, providing all-weather, day/night engagements in complex saturation scenarios. The interceptor is vertically launched from a mobile ground launcher.

The LB-MF-STAR, produced by ELTA Systems Ltd., IAI's group and wholly owned subsidiary, supports air defense missions and guides AMD weapon systems. It can deliver an accurate, high quality arena situation picture and extract low Radar Cross Section (RCS) targets even in the toughest environmental conditions. The LB-MF-STAR is a digital Active Electronic Steering Array (AESA) Radar System which incorporates new, advanced technologies and includes one rotating S-band Phased Array Antenna.

Source 2: Indian MoD

Just go here:
http://mod.nic.in/

search for IAI and you will come across:

Wednesday Feb 28, 2008

There have been some offer for joint collaboration/cooperation in the field of development of missile system from various countries. One joint development project already exist for Long Range – Surface-to-Air Missile (LR-SAM) with Israeli Aerospace Industry (IAI), Israel.

Indian defence scientists are involved in the design, development, test & evaluation and productionisation of missile and its sub-systems in collaborative mode.

This information was given by the Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri S S Ahluwalia in Rajya Sabha today.

PK /VK

Barak-8 itself is advertised as system capable from SR to LR defense. The overlap between previous ranged SAM and new ranged SAM is to ensure no gap exists in the coverage zone. That is why you will see overlapping between systems in terms of both range and altitude.

SPYDER-SR and Akash overlap in SPYDER's high end zone and Akash's low/mid end zone.
Akash overlap with Barak-8 in Akash's high end zone and Barak-8's low end zone.

Generally, you will see system performance is most tested on its boundaries. In the middle most system perform well most of the time. At least, in software development they always tell you to test at boundaries. So by overlapping with another system's middle range you are providing a very assuring redundancy.

SPYDER MR makes no sense at all.