India-China News and Discussion

[Sanku]

I wonder how Marx-ism is not a "cult" but Falun Gong is.. maybe because Marxism has no culture?

[Mahendra]

Recession causing rehabilitation centres in China to close without rehabilitating inmates

the unregistered Chinese Anti-Traditional Education Training Centre was shut down and its patients sent home,

[hnair]

Capitalist Imperialist hallucinations! If the skyscrapers are empty, it is because the Chinese ANTICIPATED demand and built the things while construction costs are less than 1/10 of what they are GOING to be.

Makes sense. PLA jernails must have learnt it from the Pharoahs of Egypt: Back in the Old Kingdom days, stone (and their cutting) trade was not usurped by profiteering yindoo-yehudis (as it is nowadays in Amsterdam). And slaves were easy to handle. One day there will be a severe drought for stones and that is when Ramesses II and Khufu will wake up, stretch their bandaged bodies and put pyramid stones on E-bay..... Nothing to do with "Look at me, I am Pharoah. I spend as I want. And I have the biggest mijjile amongst y'all"

[hnair]

A serious request: Liu and HaoYun, can you post some blogs, forums etc that discusses about art, literature and pop-culture (in English)? No, not those run by chinophilic westerners "studying about China". Just chinese citizens writing about the world around them. Also none of those goofy travelogues of chinese girls in India etc.

Also what seems to be not realized in China is this: Indians are quickly warming upto Chinese culture and quite a few Indians are serious in learning in depth about Feng-shui type of practical arts. Even in small towns, a lot of Indians are trying to get more info on Chinese literature (other than Red Book type of fanboy litt), independant movies, cuisine etc. It will be a pity if Chinese citizens could not learn more about Indian alternative therapy, contemporary music, films etc

[enqyoob]

And a suggestion on where to find these thoughtful writings. Maybe the Falun Gong website has good writeups. Who else in China believes in peace and serenity and doing positive deeds?

Cheers

[Dhiman]

well, CPC like Lenin, but I don't like Lenin.

Given that you are in China and assuming that you are not on secret payroll of CCP internet propaganda unit, this is the closest thing to anti-government statement that we can get from you without putting you in jail for 5 years.

[hnair]

well, CPC like Lenin, but I don't like Lenin.

Given that you are in China and assuming that you are not on secret payroll of CCP internet propaganda unit, this is the closest thing to anti-government statement that we can get from you without putting you in jail for 5 years.

"The peal of spring thunder over China...... is good!" said the Non-evil Mao from another dimension.

That is one more thing - a Chinese intellectual dissident would be far more freer, culturally familiar and productive in happy Delhi than far off alien lands where they are treated with acute suspicion. Once babudom of Delhi gets their breakout strength, I am hoping to see some such distinguished guests living around India. In that sense, the Taslima episode was bad, bad and a whole lot more bad.....

[Akshut]

From ToI

[enqyoob]

The "Can't Say" 4% must be the Chinese Intellectuals on the internet. If they "say", they go to jail for the next 7 years.

[kancha]

The Chinese Doodle

The Crumbling Fortune Cookie

Chinese Economy in deep doodoo

"China down down" seems to be the order of the day !

[RajeshA]

India plans naval base on Maldives to contain Chinese influence by Dean Nelson: Telegraph UK

India is planning to establish a naval base and listening post in the Maldives, the tropical holiday islands in the Indian Ocean, in an attempt to contain growing Chinese influence in the region.

[jjambunathan]

Chinese Web post causes ire in India

http://www.globaltimes.cn/www/english/t ... 59440.html

[JwalaMukhi]

http://www.dailypioneer.com/196886/The- ... hreat.html

Similar Chinese hostility towards India was evident after the 26/11 Mumbai carnage. ‘Scholars’ from the state-funded China Institute of Strategic Studies proclaimed that the Mumbai attack reflected “the failure of Indian Intelligence” and claimed that India was blaming Pakistan to “enhance its control over the disputed Kashmir”. Even before Pakistan claimed that India was manifesting aggressive intentions, a CISS ‘scholar’ stated that “China can support Pakistan in the event of a war,” adding that Pakistan could benefit from its military cooperation with China while fighting India. This CISS ‘scholar’ asserted that in such circumstances China may have the option of resorting to a “strategic military action in Southern Tibet (Arunachal Pradesh) to thoroughly liberate the people there”. A ‘scholar’ of yet another state-run institution, the China Institute of Contemporary International Relations, claimed that the terrorists who carried out the attack on Mumbai came from within India. Chinese comments on the Mumbai carnage then echoed the views of rabid sections of the Urdu press in Pakistan.

The recent articles by Chinese ‘scholars’ could not have been published without authorisation at the highest levels in a country that rigidly censors Internet access of its citizens. While it would be counter-productive to get alarmed by such writings, they should not be ignored as China’s many apologists in India suggest.

The remark of the outgoing naval Chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta that the gap between China and India is “too wide to bridge,” was torn out of context, ignoring the fact that he had also urged the need to create a “reliable and stand-off deterrent” while building strategic ties with the US, EU and Russia.

[Yogi_G]

Excuse my ignorance, but isn't "Han" a derivative of "KHan"? Which is the purer form? IOW, are the Han descendants of Pakis or vice versa? No wonder they are on such good terms!

I get it now,

Between the 399.5% Pure Arab Onlee Khanate and the 399.5 years old Unkil Khanate is Middle Kingdom onleeee....

[enqyoob]

"KHan" is a Han with a cold.

[Philip]

Chinese strategy in its quiet attempts at eventually dominating the IOR and other global oceans.

Is China a "Soft" Naval Power?

Publication: China Brief Volume: 9 Issue: 17August 20, 2009 09:06 AM Age: 22 hrsCategory: China Brief, Military/Security, Foreign Policy, Featured, Home Page, China and the Asia-Pacific By: James Holmes , Toshi Yoshihara

China created a stir late last year when it announced that the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) would commence policing the Gulf of Aden for Somali pirates. Two PLAN destroyers and a combat logistics ship arrived on station off the Horn of Africa this past January. By most accounts, Chinese commanders have coordinated their efforts smoothly with other antipiracy contingents, notably the U.S.-led Task Force 151, the European Union's Operation Atlanta, and individual detachments dispatched by the likes of India and Russia. Nevertheless, skeptics saw ulterior motives at work in the Chinese expedition. China is finding that controversy follows great-power naval actions.
Chinese spokesmen cataloged various reasons for the extended Indian Ocean deployment. Senior Colonel Ma Luping, director of the Navy Operations Department in the PLAN General Staff Headquarters Operations Department, told reporters that the mission's main goal was to protect Chinese (and Taiwanese) merchant ships and crews, as well as ships carrying supplies to Africa on behalf of the U.N. World Food Program. Xiao Xinnian, the PLAN deputy chief of staff, said the cruise would allow China to showcase its "positive attitude in fulfilling its international obligations," burnish its "image as a responsible power" (fu zeren de daguo xingxiang), and demonstrate the PLA's capacity to enhance "world stability and peace" while "handling multiple security threats and fulfilling diverse military tasks" (Xinhua News Agency, December 23, 2008).


Beijing means to prove that it is a reliable defender of the global maritime order by tangible deeds. For some time Chinese strategists have debated the part that "non-war military operations" (fei zhanzheng junshi xingdong) can play in coping with nontraditional security threats like piracy. Analysts contend that combating such challenges will not only fulfill China's responsibilities as a rising great power, but also help it accrue "soft power" over time, enhancing its attractiveness vis-à-vis fellow Asian nations [1].


Beijing was stung by its inability to contribute to tsunami relief in 2004-2005, for instance, and set out to correct the naval shortcomings exposed during the aid effort. Procuring transport aircraft, landing vessels, and a hospital ship has bolstered the PLAN's capacity for this high-profile non-war military operation (Washington Times, January 26; Jiefangjun Bao [Liberation Army Daily], June 4, 2008). China's soft-power strategy seems based on the premise that a nation can store up international goodwill by supplying "international public goods" like maritime security, which benefit all nations with a stake in the international order.


PLAN patrolling the Gulf of Aden, which will also buttress China's ability to project power along the African seaboard and prosecute high-seas combat operations, is mentioned sotto voce—if at all—by the Chinese leadership. Portraying China as an inherently benevolent sea power—a power that Asians need not fear as it constructs a great navy—is central to Chinese maritime diplomacy. Yet as with all narratives, the reality is subjective and more complex. Good diplomacy is seldom good history.


The "Inevitable Outcome" of Chinese Maritime History


Counter-piracy is the archetype of an international public good. Ships remain the most economical way to transport bulk goods. On the order of 90 percent of world trade (by volume) travels aboard ship. Freedom of the seas, suppression of piracy and terrorism, and regional peace, consequently, are increasingly essential to the "good order at sea" on which globalization relies [2]. The PLAN leadership recently embraced good order at sea as one of the Navy's core missions. Admiral Su Shiliang, the PLAN chief of staff, penned an article in the official Navy newspaper, Renmin Haijun (People's Navy), that ordered his service to "strengthen preparations for maritime non-war military operations in a targeted fashion" while further honing its capacity to fight and win conventional battles at sea (Renmin Haijun, June 6).


Influential Chinese officials and scholars are increasingly thinking in terms of soft power as a way to augment China's comprehensive national power. President Hu Jintao told the 17th Party Congress, "Culture has become a more and more important source of national cohesion and creativity and a factor of growing significance in the competition in overall national strength" [3]. Fudan University scholar Shen Dingli contends, "China's 'harmonious diplomacy' has been well received by countries in the region," even as "U.S. influence in Asia has been diminishing." Accordingly, President Barack Obama is attempting "to remold the image of the United States in the region with soft power and smart power," reinvigorate relations with Asian nations, and "tactfully counter the impact of rising big powers in the region" (Phoenix TV [Hong Kong], July 23).


As Shen observes, China too can tap major reserves of soft power. Chinese leaders have invoked the Southeast and South Asian voyages of the Ming Dynasty admiral, Zheng He, with increasing frequency to justify Beijing's claims that China's rise poses no threat. Tales of the Ming "treasure fleet," in effect the first foreign squadron ever forward-deployed to the Indian Ocean, appear to act as a proxy for China's conduct at sea today. The rationale goes like this: dynastic China refrained from conquest even when it possessed a big navy. Thus, declares Chinese vice minister for communication Xu Zuyuan, Zheng He's journeys to the Indian Ocean prove that "a peaceful emergence is the inevitable outcome of the development of Chinese history" (Xinhua News Agency, July 7, 2004) (authors' emphasis). China's peaceful rise, that is, is not only a matter of policy but a veritable law of history—or so Beijing would have target audiences believe.


Maritime security is interlaced with Chinese soft power. Speaking at Cambridge University in February 2009, Premier Wen Jiabao conjured up Zheng He's "peaceful" missions to convey Beijing's deeply embedded aversion to power politics and military dominion. "The idea that a strong country must be a hegemon does not sit well with China," proclaimed Wen. "Hegemonism is at odds with our cultural tradition, and it runs counter to the wishes of the Chinese people" [9]. This was a startling claim, given that the tributary system Zheng rejuvenated had everything to do with power politics. Wen's diplomacy was apt, his history shaky.


Similarly, while celebrating the 60th anniversary of the PLAN's founding, PLAN commander Admiral Wu Shengli drew a straight line from Zheng He to contemporary Chinese maritime strategy. That the "world's strongest fleet [the Ming navy] at the time … did not sign any unequal treaty, did not expand claims to any territory, and did not bring back even one slave," declared Wu before 29 naval delegations, proved that "the Chinese people are active practitioners of the harmonious ocean worldview"—to this day (Renmin Haijun, April 22).
Whether or not Asian audiences accept the Chinese version of history will determine the efficacy of China's naval soft power. Governments cannot deploy soft power the way they dispatch army brigades or impose economic sanctions. According to its proponents, however, soft power lubricates the diplomatic machinery, helping leading powers ease suspicions about their motives and gather support for initiatives they deem worthy of pursuit. If so, Chinese soft-power overtures could pay off handsomely.


Setting the Bar High


Despite his enthusiasm for soft power, Harvard scholar Joseph Nye warns that the kinder, gentler approach has pitfalls if taken to excess. Public goods can become an excuse for meddlesome policies, he says, while "sometimes things that look good in our eyes may look bad in the eyes of others" [4]. Or a nation's diplomacy can become too soft. For instance, India abounds in cultural appeal, and indeed, the late Sinologist Lucian Pye maintained that China "has come in a poor second to the Indian culture in attracting other peoples." Yet, "India is now regarded as a soft state," laments former Indian national security adviser Brajesh Mishra, because its physical might lags behind its power of attraction (India Today, July 23).


In portraying itself as a categorically benign nation, China has set itself an almost unreachable standard. If its behavior falls short of the Zheng He standard, it will be held to account. For instance, historians depict Zheng's voyages as more than a gesture of goodwill. The size, sophistication, and combat power of the Ming fleet, declared the late Edward Dreyer, were deliberately calculated to overawe audiences in the South China Sea and the Indian Ocean—to the extent that using force was unnecessary to impose Chinese emperors' political will [5].


If the Zheng He voyages were in fact an exercise in power projection, it would help explain why some Asian observers read dark meaning into the PLAN counter-piracy deployment rather than accepting it as the act of a benign China. The PLAN has acquitted itself well off Somalia, rendering useful service from a public-goods perspective. Yet at the same time, the Navy has shown it is no longer a coastal defense force, short on the capacity to replenish fuel, arms, and stores at sea or relieve deployed forces on station. It has been experimenting with a more ambitious fleet.


That fleet is now making its debut. This is not lost on wary Indian commentators, who depict counter-piracy as China's first step onto a slippery slope toward a permanent naval presence in the Indian Ocean. Many in New Delhi appear utterly convinced that Beijing intends to militarize its "string of pearls," or network of basing agreements with South Asian states. One well-known analyst sketches a Sino-Indian "rivalry arc" all the way from Japan, along the first island chain, and through the Indian Ocean. Not so coincidentally, the arc's western terminus lies off of Somalia [6].


For India, which fancies itself South Asia's foremost power, signs of Chinese naval skill and capability portend future trouble—trouble that might require India not only to fortify its defenses in the Indian Ocean but also to project power into the Pacific, delivering a riposte to Chinese deployments near the subcontinent. It is no accident that this year's annual Malabar exercise will take place not off India's Malabar coast but off the coasts of Japan and Okinawa, bringing together the Indian, U.S., and Japanese fleets. Nor is skepticism confined to the Indians. The efficacy of China's charm offensive in the South China Sea remains an open question.


Lingering Questions


Three issues associated with soft power deserve close scrutiny. Chinese counter-piracy provides a test case for this approach to diplomacy. First, to what extent does soft power yield hard results? Soft-power advocates appear to assume nations will set aside their interests if provided enough public goods or if a nation boasting sufficient power of attraction asks them to do so.


That is doubtful. Beijing may well find that fellow Asian leaders respond politely to their Zheng He narrative yet still abstain from Chinese-led ventures. Perhaps soft power eases qualms about a nation's actions—a useful thing in itself from China's standpoint—but cannot summon forth positive action. Standing by passively while big powers do something is easy; expending lives and treasure on another's behalf can be both hard and politically hazardous.


Second, is any nation's appeal universal? Council on Foreign Relations scholar Walter Russell Mead says no, pointing out that not all people feel the tug even of America's open, liberal society. Evidence emerging in the Indian Ocean and South China Sea supports Mead’s claim. China's "smiling diplomacy" seems destined to meet with some combination of enthusiasm, indifference, and—as the Indian case shows—disbelief. How Beijing conducts itself over time will determine whether it succeeds.


Third, how can a nation sustain its soft power once it begins to use hard power? It is relatively simple to sustain an attractive image when that image remains an abstraction, pure of messy realities. Beijing can tell its story however it wants. Yet as it starts deploying naval power in new theaters, China's beneficent image will be tested against empirical evidence. What appeals to one foreign audience may not appeal to another, and Chinese soft power may decay as Beijing acts in its own interests.


China's admittedly attractive civilization, then, provides no guarantee of diplomatic and military success. If Beijing—or any other government—sees soft power as a talisman to brandish in the face of stubborn challenges, its hopes are apt to be frustrated.


Notes

1. Jonathan Holslag, "Embracing Chinese Global Security Ambitions," Washington Quarterly 32, no. 3 (July 2009): p. 109; Joel Wuthnow, "The Concept of Soft Power in China's Strategic Discourse," Issues & Studies 44, no. 2 (June 2008): pp. 1-28.
2. Joseph S. Nye Jr., "The American National Interest and Global Public Goods," International Affairs 78, no. 2 (2002): p. 239.
3. Wen Jiabao, "See China in the Light of Her Development," Speech at Cambridge University, United Kingdom, February 2, 2009, Foreign Ministry Website, www.fmprc.gov.cn/eng/wjdt/zyjh/t536420.htm.
4. Nye Jr., "The American National Interest and Global Public Goods," p. 239.
5. Edward L. Dreyer, Zheng He: China and the Oceans in the Early Ming Dynasty, 1405-1433 (Old Tappan, N.J.: Pearson Longman, 2006), p. xii.
6. Gurpreet Khurana, "China-India Defense Rivalry," Indian Defense Review 23, no. 4 (July-September 2009), http://www.indiandefencereview.com/2009 ... valry.html.

http://www.jamestown.org/single/?no_cac ... 9bec3926d0

[Liu]

I wonder how Marx-ism is not a "cult" but Falun Gong is.. maybe because Marxism has no culture?

I do think Marxism is almost a cult..

[Liu]

Liu writes:

I dislike Fa Lungong ,not because CPC dislike it,just because I don't like any cult.

well, CPC like Lenin, but I don't like Lenin.

Ah, but I wasn't really asking whether you personally like or dislike the Falun Gong. I want to know why the PRC govt treats them so brutally - what is it that they do, that merits such treatment? You do seem to know a lot about them, to decide whether to like or dislike them, and declare them a "cult". But a "cult" is some group of people that adopts a certain cult-ure, hey? Is it part of Chinese cult-ure to hate cults? Why? Because they have cult-ure? Or is it part of Chinese culture to hate someone because the Govt. hates them? Surely the Falun Gong must have done something terrible to be so hated? Do they eat their own children? Other people's children? What else merits such hate? I am really curious about this, because the many images and stories on the internet about what has been done to them, are absolutely horrible.

Another question - I am so curious about China, please excuse me!

In the "Monkey" story that I quoted above (this is honestly the first I am seeing anything about this, and realizing the extent of India-China contact in ancient times!) there seem to be the usual "stereotypes":
1. The hero
2. The monks
3. The Wise Men/ Masters
4. Martial arts
5. Dragons and monsters
6. Magic

But... NO romance, no love stories, no WOMEN! Its all stories of predators and mutual destruction. How come? These stories sound like the sort I used to eat up when I was, well... too stupid to realize that I should sign Peace and Friendship and Cooperation treaties with the girls in my class, not just Mutually Assured Punishment standoffs. What cultural / moral lessons are derived from such stories other than a cult-ure of martial arts and macho? Unfortunately, in such oversimplified "culture" models, it is all too easy to demonize anyone who is slightly different from the Majority (K-Hans?) and decide that they are just "cults" who should be beaten, imprisoned, tortured and killed. Is this an accurate model of Chinese cult-ure? How can it be, if Budhism became so popular there? Or are Buddhists considered a "cult" too?

The difference with Indian culture could not be more dramatic! Indian epics are filled with family-level lessons of love and faith and dedication and worship and kindness. War when it occurs, is an absolute last resort, not something that anyone looks forward to. Martial arts are practised by a very few. So the whole emphasis of the stories is very very different.

Did the western translators completely misrepresent the Chinese epics?

well, duing the chinese history, cults were often to be used to organized anti-government movement, even rebel.

For example,

one of CHinese most powerful dynasty, Han dynastry was destroyed by the cult of "Yellew Headband" on 184AD.

Mongol-ruled Yuan dynastry was also destroyed by the cult of "Red Headband".


CCP also is afraid that Fa LungGong become another " Yellow Headband" or "Red Headband".

[Liu]

^^
If you don't mind me asking..
1) So how do you define a cult?
2) What is it that they do that makes you dislike them?

1. cults always wants to control people's mentality.

so,to some extent, christian ruled by the Inquistions during m-age was also a cult. Marxist today was also a cult.
Fa Lunggong is a cult,but much more crappy than christian and marxism.


2.cult can not raise any right way to solve the social problems.

during chinese hisotry, cults like" yellow headband" or "red headband" just know how to "destroy" ,but didn't know how to "develop" and "set up".

[harbans]

Falun Gong (Chinese: 法輪功) is a spiritual practice[2] founded in China by Li Hongzhi (李洪志) in 1992. Falun Gong has five sets of qigong exercises; its teachings are focused on the principles of "truthfulness, compassion and forbearance" as set out in the main books Falun Gong[3] and Zhuan Falun.[4] The books, lectures, and exercise materials have been translated into multiple languages and are freely available on the Internet.[5][6]

Its teachings cover spiritual, religious, mystical, and metaphysical topics. Falun Gong is an introductory book that discusses qigong, which introduces the principles and provides illustrations and explanations of the exercises involved in Falun Gong practice.

The main body of teachings is articulated in the core book Zhuan Falun (轉法輪),[31] published in late 1994. According to the texts, Falun Gong (or Falun Dafa) is a complete system of mind-body "cultivation practice" (修煉).[32] Truthfulness (眞 Zhen), Compassion (善 Shan), and Forbearance (忍 Ren) are regarded as the fundamental characteristics of the cosmos—an omnipresent nature that permeates and encompasses everything. In the process of cultivation, the practitioner is supposed to assimilate himself or herself to these qualities by letting go of "attachments and notions," thus returning to the "original, true self." In Zhuan Falun, Li Hongzhi said that "As a practitioner, if you assimilate yourself to this characteristic, you are one that has attained the Tao—it's just such a simple principle."

Liu, this is a beautiful practise and doctrine. Much like Yoga. You must try it. I'd any day trust a 100 million Chinese people with a doctrine based based on "Truth, Compassion and forebearance" than Chinese basing themselves on a cult of Maoism and the 'Might is Right' cult doctrines.

Maoism and the CCP represent a cult. Not Falun Gong.

[harbans]

And look what the Maoist cult does to innocent practioners of Falun Gong..shame! Are your shiny empty sky scrapers and olympic stadiums not worthless if you have a country run by a cult which feels no shame in doing this..

The Kilgour-Matas Report

On July 20, 2006, former Canadian MP David Kilgour and Human Rights Lawyer David Matas presented the findings of their two month investigation, conducted in response to a request by the Coalition to Investigate the Persecution of Falun Gong.[21]

The report presents 33 strands of evidence which the authors say leads to the positive conclusion.[13] The authors maintain that, while taken individually the pieces of evidence do not prove the allegations, their combination was the deciding factor.

In 2007, they presented an updated report under the title: "Report into Allegations of Organ Harvesting of Falun Gong Practitioners in China." {{cquote|Based on our further research, we are reinforced in our original conclusion that the allegations are true. We believe that there has been and continues today to be large scale organ seizures from unwilling Falun Gong practitioners.

We have concluded that the government of China and its agencies in numerous parts of the country, in particular hospitals but also detention centres and 'people's courts', since 1999 have put to death a large but unknown number of Falun Gong prisoners of conscience. Their vital organs, including kidneys, livers, corneas and hearts, were seized involuntarily for sale at high prices, sometimes to foreigners, who normally face long waits for voluntary donations of such organs in their home countries.[16]

They admitted difficulty in verifying the allegations, due to the lack of independent bodies which investigate conditions in China, availability of eyewitness evidence and official information about organ transplantation. They were also denied visas to China.[16][4]

China has repeatedly denied the organ harvesting allegations.[22][23]

[edit] Details on the source of organ transplants

Of 60,000 organ transplants officially recorded between 2000 and 2005, 18,500 came from identifiable sources; the source of 41,500 transplant organs could not thus be explained. In 2007, Kilgour and Matas said that traditional sources of transplants such as executed prisoners, donors, and the brain dead "come nowhere near to explaining the total number of transplants across China." They said that "the only other identified source which can explain the skyrocketing transplant numbers is Falun Gong practitioners."[24]

China has no organized donation system, as in western countries, according to the report. There is also a cultural aversion to organ donation, such that even if there were a system in place, donations would be scarce. The authors say these factors severely limit the availability of voluntarily donated organs for transplant.[16]

Organ transplanting is a highly profitable industry in China. The report provides a list of prices in US dollars found on Chinese transplant websites in April, 2006. These range from US$62,000 for a kidney, to US$130,000-160,000 for a heart.[25] K&M say that since China has no organized donation system, and a cultural aversion to organ donation, availability of voluntarily donated organs for transplant are scarce; hospitals are known to profit from illegally selling organs of death-row prisoners. The authors allege that this policy of might be easily transferred to Falun Gong practitioners because healthcare and army facilities in China are self-reliant for funding.[24]

The authors note the very short waiting times in Chinese hospitals for transplants. One hospital boasts a wait of one week for a transplant, another claims to provide a liver in two weeks. In Canada, the waiting time for a kidney can be up to 32.5 months. The survival period for a kidney is between 24-48 hours, and a liver about 12 hours. The authors contend that only a large bank of living 'donors' could account for the “astonishingly short” waiting times.[16]

[edit] Investigation methods

Mandarin speaking investigators, posing as potential recipients or their relatives, called in to a number of hospitals inquiring about organ availability.[26]

According to the reports, one of the callers, referred to in the report as caller "M" , called into 80 something hospitals out of which 10 hospitals admitted they use Falun Gong practitioners as organ suppliers, 14 hospitals admitted they use live organs from prisoners and 10 hospitals said the source of organs is a secret and they could not reveal it over the phone. Caller N made calls to close to 40 hospitals in China, out of which 5 admitted to using Falun Gong practitioner organs. N also made calls to 36 various detention centres and the Courts in China, out of which 4 admitted to using Falun Gong practitioner organs. Kilgour and Matas note that when the called party was directly asked if they use Falun Gong practitioners' organs, the typical response got was that "the caller did not expect this question at all, and would pause for a while to think how to respond. After the pause, about 80% did not admit that they used Falun Gong practitioners' organs. About 80% of those who did not admit to using Falun Gong practitioners' organs did admit that they use live bodies who are prisoners. Less than 10 people simply hung up the phone once they heard the question about Falun Gong practitioners."[16]

On August 22, 2008, Kilgour and Matas issued a press release arguing that the veracity of the telephone transcripts was strengthened by the Phoenix TV video. The evidence was based on Dr. Lu Guoping's statements from the video, combined with a prior audio recording of an admission from the same doctor.

In an audio recording obtained by Kilgour-Matas' investigators, Lu Guoping apparently admits that he and his colleagues go to prison to select Falun Gong practitioners for transplantation. "In the TV video, the doctor admits that he was the person interviewed in the audio recording but denies, when presented with a transcript, that he said what our audio records him as saying," Kilgour and Matas write. "Yet, on the audio, what the doctor denies saying is interspersed seamlessly with what the doctor admits saying. Once the doctor, in the video, admits to saying most of what is in the audio, the conclusion that he said everything he is recorded on the audio as saying is inevitable. Only through video and the audio in combination do we have the admitted implication of this doctor and his hospital in Guangxi in the organ harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners and the hospital in Guangzhou in the nationwide organ sourcing of Falun Gong practitioners." [27][28]

Falun Gong specific considerations

Their report gives background to human rights violations in China, in particular the persecution of Falun Gong, including the campaign to incite public hatred toward the group, and the widespread torture of practitioners in custody.

Kilgour and Matas state that one of the “most disturbing” moments in researching the report was the discovery of a massive population of imprisoned Falun gong practitioners who remained unidentified. Falun Gong prisoners of conscience may refuse to give their names for fear of persecution against their families. In these cases, no one outside the prison system knows their whereabouts. They state that there is a significant lack of representation among freed Falun Gong practitioners, from those who failed to self identify while they were imprisoned—these 'disappearances', the authors contend, are ready candidates for live organ harvesting.[16] China scholar Benjamin Penny also drew attention to this when questioned about the organ harvesting allegations, though he does not affirm the conclusion drawn by Kilgour-Matas.[31]

The authors also point to evidence that Falun Gong practitioners are systematically blood and urine tested, and have their organs examined while in custody, while other prisoners, who are not practitioners, are not tested. "This differential testing occurs in labour camps, prisons and detention centres. We have heard such a large number of testimonials to this effect that this differential testing exists beyond a shadow of a doubt."[16]

Practitioners are not told the reason for being tested or examined; Kilgour and Matas write that it is not for health purposes, "For one, it is unnecessary to blood test and organ examine people systematically simply as a health precaution. For another, the health of the Falun Gong in detention is disregarded in so many other ways, it is implausible that the authorities would blood test and organ examine Falun Gong as a precautionary health measure."[16]

They also point out that blood testing is a pre-requisite for organ transplants, and that donors need to be matched with recipients "so that the antibodies of the recipients do not reject the organs of the donors."[16]

This is also an avenue of proof/disproof, according to Kilgour and Matas, because "The mere fact of blood testing and organ examination does not establish that organ harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners is taking place. But the opposite is true. If there were no blood testing, the allegation would be disproved. The widespread blood testing of Falun Gong practitioners in detention cuts off this avenue of disproof."[16]

Practitioners regularly die in custody due to torture or ill-treatment, "In a few cases, between death and cremation," Kilgour and Matas say, "family members of Falun Gong practitioners were able to see the mutilated corpses of their loved ones. Organs had been removed."[24]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reports_of ... s_in_China

All power to Falun Gong..may they inherit the China of tomorrow!

[archan]

1. cults always wants to control people's mentality.

While I ponder on your definition, I seem to recollect that, hmm... a regime that sends people to "re-education" camps if they don't agree with that regime's policies. A regime that does the best it can to not allow any discourse that can place it in not-so-pleasant position...
So I wonder, if there is a regime that is trying to control a) what is spoken in their country, b) what is printed in their newspapers, c) what is shown in their TV shows, d) what websites are allowed to be accessed, e) what search terms are allowed in google, and how google can show the results...
And this regime has over the decades been able to produce an entire young generation that does not want to oppose it and in fact thinks it is the best thing that could have happened to them..
Hmm... I wonder if this regime has tried to and perhaps been successful in controlling people's mentality. I wonder if this belief system would be a 'cult' going by your defintion.

[Liu]

Falun Gong (Chinese: 法輪功) is a spiritual practice[2] founded in China by Li Hongzhi (李洪志) in 1992. Falun Gong has five sets of qigong exercises; its teachings are focused on the principles of "truthfulness, compassion and forbearance" as set out in the main books Falun Gong[3] and Zhuan Falun.[4] The books, lectures, and exercise materials have been translated into multiple languages and are freely available on the Internet.[5][6]

Its teachings cover spiritual, religious, mystical, and metaphysical topics. Falun Gong is an introductory book that discusses qigong, which introduces the principles and provides illustrations and explanations of the exercises involved in Falun Gong practice.

The main body of teachings is articulated in the core book Zhuan Falun (轉法輪),[31] published in late 1994. According to the texts, Falun Gong (or Falun Dafa) is a complete system of mind-body "cultivation practice" (修煉).[32] Truthfulness (眞 Zhen), Compassion (善 Shan), and Forbearance (忍 Ren) are regarded as the fundamental characteristics of the cosmos—an omnipresent nature that permeates and encompasses everything. In the process of cultivation, the practitioner is supposed to assimilate himself or herself to these qualities by letting go of "attachments and notions," thus returning to the "original, true self." In Zhuan Falun, Li Hongzhi said that "As a practitioner, if you assimilate yourself to this characteristic, you are one that has attained the Tao—it's just such a simple principle."

Liu, this is a beautiful practise and doctrine. Much like Yoga. You must try it. I'd any day trust a 100 million Chinese people with a doctrine based based on "Truth, Compassion and forebearance" than Chinese basing themselves on a cult of Maoism and the 'Might is Right' cult doctrines.

Maoism and the CCP represent a cult. Not Falun Gong.

well. don't sell Fa lungong to me ,pls. I don't buy it.

Frankly speaking, I did not learn about Fa Lunggong at all,before CCP forbad it. At first ,I was even some sympathy to Fa Lunggong.

However,after I read the official website of Fa Lunggong full of cock-and-bull lies, I made sure that Fa Lunggong is a cult.

after I saw that Fa Lunggong blindly suportedo called " tibetan independence" after 3.14 Lhasa riot, I confirmed again that Fa Lunggong is not only a cult, but also a shameful cult.


BTW,I do agree that Maoism and Marxism somtimes also turn cults.
and I don't buy Maoism and Marxism sometimes ,either.

[harbans]

well. don't sell Fa lungong to me ,pls. I don't buy it.

Did they do something wrong to you or your family or someone? How has Falun Gong harmed you or anyone that you know. No one is selling anything here. But clearly a doctrine based on 'Truth, Compassion and Forbearance' cannot be compared to Maoist and Marxist doctrines that endorse violence. You are just buying state propaganda.

When you do grow up in an atmosphere that is free, you'll realize how off the mark the CCP behaves. How immature it is in banning the falun Gong. One day hopefully you will see the light..

[Liu]

well. don't sell Fa lungong to me ,pls. I don't buy it.

Did they do something wrong to you or your family or someone? How has Falun Gong harmed you or anyone that you know. No one is selling anything here. But clearly a doctrine based on 'Truth, Compassion and Forbearance' cannot be compared to Maoist and Marxist doctrines that endorse violence. You are just buying state propaganda.

When you do grow up in an atmosphere that is free, you'll realize how off the mark the CCP behaves. How immature it is in banning the falun Gong. One day hopefully you will see the light..

Stalin did also make its dictrine based " for the liberation of the whole humankind". Maosim did so too.

but do you buy Stalinism and Maosim?

[harbans]

Stalin did also make its dictrine based " for the liberation of the whole humankind". Maosim did so too.

But Stalin, Mao in their doctrines and deeds openly say that 'liberation' need not be achieved by using 'truth', 'compassion', forbearance'. They made it a point using untruth, no mercy and no forbearance required to achieve what they thought 'liberation' is.

Moreover..assume:

Mao and Stalin did say they will achieve 'liberation' using 'Truth, Compassion and forbearance' would history of China and USSR be different? Indeed it would be poles apart.

If a 100 million Chinese people believe today in the fundamental power of TRUTH, COMPASSION and FORBEARANCE, they are the Chinese i root for, i respect. They are the ones that will ultimately give China it's due respect in the World. Not those who go by Maoist and imperialist agendas on deciet, untruth, propaganda.

[Liu]

Stalin did also make its dictrine based " for the liberation of the whole humankind". Maosim did so too.

But Stalin, Mao in their docrines and deeds openly say that 'liberation' need not be achieved by using 'truth', 'compassion', forbearance'. They made it a point using untruth, no mercy and no forbearance required to achieve what they thought 'liberation' is.

Moreover..assume:

Mao and Stalin did say they will achieve 'liberation' using 'Truth, Compassion and forbearance' would history of China and USSR be different? Indeed it would be poles apart.

well, guy ,it is too naive and immature to buy something just according to the advertisement.

otherwise, you would have buy Hilter,if you had live in german in early 1930s.

[harbans]

well, guy ,it is too naive and immature to buy something just according to the advertisement.

So gal, China banned Falun Gong on an adverisement of Truth, Compassion and Forbearance?

otherwise, you would have buy Hilter,if you had live in german in early 1930s.

Never. Hitlers doctrines never would work in India. Such people and ideologies have never succeeded in India. India is very sensitive to what forms the fundamental doctrine. If it is not based on Truth and Compassion, such a doctrine will have only very limited success in India. India has a death penalty. But we execute maybe once a decade. while China has possibly executed more people today than the GOI in the last 60 years. Fascist ideology never made a mark in India. Never succeeded.

[Liu]

well, guy ,it is too naive and immature to buy something just according to the advertisement.

So gal, China banned Falun Gong on an adverisement of Truth, Compassion and Forbearance?

otherwise, you would have buy Hilter,if you had live in german in early 1930s.

Never. Hitlers doctrines never would work in India. Such people and ideologies have never succeeded in India. India is very sensitive to what forms the fundamental doctrine. If it is not based on Truth and Compassion, such a doctrine will have only very limited success in India. India has a death penalty. But we execute maybe once a decade. while China has possibly executed more people today than the GOI in the last 60 years. Fascist ideology never made a mark in India. Never succeeded.

however, it seems that you do buy "Fa Lungong" .

how can you so easily buy one ,just accordint to " truth, ....bah bla" it advertise?

do you really read its website full of lies?

at least, I know that lie is not " truth" it advertises.

[RayC]

well, guy ,it is too naive and immature to buy something just according to the advertisement.

So gal, China banned Falun Gong on an adverisement of Truth, Compassion and Forbearance?

otherwise, you would have buy Hilter,if you had live in german in early 1930s.

Never. Hitlers doctrines never would work in India. Such people and ideologies have never succeeded in India. India is very sensitive to what forms the fundamental doctrine. If it is not based on Truth and Compassion, such a doctrine will have only very limited success in India. India has a death penalty. But we execute maybe once a decade. while China has possibly executed more people today than the GOI in the last 60 years. Fascist ideology never made a mark in India. Never succeeded.

however, it seems that you do buy "Fa Lungong" .

how can you so easily buy one ,just accordint to " truth, ....bah bla" it advertise?

do you really read its website full of lies?

at least, I know that lie is not " truth" it advertises.

I would agree if you could tell why it is bad.

Have they tried to topple the CCP?

Or create problems like the Uighurs and Tbetans who have rebelled against the attempt to Han-ise them?

[harbans]

at least, I know that lie is not " truth" it advertises.

Liu, so educate me why it's not good and very bad. You just shot off the CCP point of view. You just said it's a cult. These don't hold much water. Why do you think it's so harmful? Why do you say they lie? Why do you think they are not following 'truth, compassion and forbearance'.

[Liu]

Never. Hitlers doctrines never would work in India. Such people and ideologies have never succeeded in India. India is very sensitive to what forms the fundamental doctrine. If it is not based on Truth and Compassion, such a doctrine will have only very limited success in India. India has a death penalty. But we execute maybe once a decade. while China has possibly executed more people today than the GOI in the last 60 years. Fascist ideology never made a mark in India. Never succeeded.

however, it seems that you do buy "Fa Lungong" .

how can you so easily buy one ,just accordint to " truth, ....bah bla" it advertise?

do you really read its website full of lies?

at least, I know that lie is not " truth" it advertises.

I would agree if you could tell why it is bad.

Have they tried to topple the CCP?

Or create problems like the Uighurs and Tbetans who have rebelled against the attempt to Han-ise them?[/quote]

the fate of CCP would have nothing to do with me, as long as the stablity of develpment of CHina would be assured during Fa Lungong's "toppling CCP".

the problems of Uyghur and TIbetan started before CCP came into power and CCP solved it better than manchus emperor and Kuomingtang. it is arbitary to let CCP responsible for Uygher and Tibetan problem.

[Liu]

at least, I know that lie is not " truth" it advertises.

Liu, so educate me why it's not good and very bad. You just shot off the CCP point of view. You just said it's a cult. These don't hold much water. Why do you think it's so harmful? Why do you say they lie? Why do you think they are not following 'truth, compassion and forbearance'.

if you has seen the website of Fa Lungong, you would be amazed to find how absurd the lies there are.

Fa Lungong's support to Tibetan independence just let itself against most of chinese.

[RayC]

at least, I know that lie is not " truth" it advertises.

Liu, so educate me why it's not good and very bad. You just shot off the CCP point of view. You just said it's a cult. These don't hold much water. Why do you think it's so harmful? Why do you say they lie? Why do you think they are not following 'truth, compassion and forbearance'.

if you has seen the website of Fa Lungong, you would be amazed to find how absurd the lies there are.

Fa Lungong's support to Tibetan independence just let itself against most of chinese.

Please be rational.

By your saying absurd, it does not make it so.

What makes it absurd is your telling us what makes it absurd.

Would you accept with reasoning that the CCP is absurd in that it claims to be Communist and yet being a road runner of Capitalism and the US way of life?

Why were the beautiful Mao suits discarded or the lovely hutongs demolished?

[Dhiman]

at least, I know that lie is not " truth" it advertises.

Liu, so educate me why it's not good and very bad. You just shot off the CCP point of view. You just said it's a cult. These don't hold much water. Why do you think it's so harmful? Why do you say they lie? Why do you think they are not following 'truth, compassion and forbearance'.

if you has seen the website of Fa Lungong, you would be amazed to find how absurd the lies there are.

Fa Lungong's support to Tibetan independence just let itself against most of chinese.

Can't you give a direct answer to simple questions? How difficult could it be?

[harbans]

This sort of stuff is threatening to the imperial Han CCP ?? No wonder China can't stand Falun Gong..it's bringing Dharma to people.

For most people, Falun Gong is still a comparatively new system and, on the face of it, not much different from various other healing and relaxation exercises. The difference lies, primarily, in its philosophy depicted through its emblem, the Falun, representing the wheel of dharma. The Taoist yin-yang and the Buddha's dharma-chakra are both reflected in the Falun emblem.

"This sign does not connote any concept of classes. It was 2,500 years ago in Sakyamuni's time that the human society came to widely recognize this sign. Later, Hitler usurped it," explains Hongzhi. "The configuration of Falun is a miniature of the universe and has its own form of existence and process of evolution in each of the other spaces. Therefore, I call it a world."

According to Hongzhi, the Falun is an intelligent spinning body of high-energy substance from another dimension, located at the dan-tian (lower abdomen), which absorbs energy from the universe and relieves the body of bad elements. The rotation of Falun synchronizes with the rotation of the universe. This energy substance is constantly rotating, putting the practitioner in the state of cultivation for 24 hours a day.

"Some people are very sensitive, and will feel the rotation of Falun," writes Hongzhi in his book China Falun Gong. "During the initial period after Falun is installed, you may feel a little unused to it being in your body, you may have abdominal pain, or feel like something is moving and have a sense of warmth. After you have adapted to it, you will not have any sensation. But people with supernormal capabilities can see it. It's just the same with the stomach; you do not feel the movement of your stomach."

http://www.lifepositive.com/spirit/new- ... /falun.asp

This is the website:

http://www.falundafa.org/eng/home.html

What is wrong here? Perfectly beautiful..

Statutory warning to all our Chinese friends here: Open with caution, but i doubt you can, most probably the CCP has banned the IP. Anways don't get caught trying opening Falun gong sites from were you are..after reading the organ harvest thing, i thought i'd recommend the warning..

[Liu]

Please be rational.

By your saying absurd, it does not make it so.

What makes it absurd is your telling us what makes it absurd.

Would you accept with reasoning that the CCP is absurd in that it claims to be Communist and yet being a road runner of Capitalism and the US way of life?

Why were the beautiful Mao suits discarded or the lovely hutongs demolished?

.

well, CCP is always aburd....but anyhow, I would rather CCP to be "a road runner of Capitalism and the US way of life" than a communist!

as for Hutong, I also like to watch Hutong as tourist,but I don't like to be a "dweller in Hutong",just like " a anminal of living museum"

[harbans]

From the Falun Gong website here are the reasons according to it why it's persecuted:

Q: Why is Falun Dafa persecuted in China?

A: The complex rationale behind the persecution can be broken into four elements:

1) a paranoid dictator's fear of Falun Gong's meteoric growth and soaring popularity;

2)that same dictator's intense jealousy of Falun Dafa's popularity;

3)the inherent conflict between the communist regime's savage political ideology and its polar opposite—Falun Dafa's principles of "Truthfulness, Benevolence, Forbearance";

4)and the very nature of communism, which to sustain itself requires periodically labeling a small segment of the population as the "class enemy" to "struggle" against.

(Numbering and bolds above mine)

http://www.falundafa.org/eng/faqs.html#swastika

PS: Statutory warning on risks involved including possibility of organ harvesting in case of association with FG stand. Please avoid open the sites (that is if you can) or do so at your own risk..

[RajeshA]

There is a film, called "Looking for Humor in the Muslim world". The title reminds me of the many unsuccessful efforts here of "Looking for Argument in the Chinese World"!

Who needs argument, when he has ruthlessness on his side?!

Ruthlessness creates its own success. Success creates its own rationale. The Chinese have been able to put some Lipstick on this ruthlessness. Let's not get fooled by it.

In India we say, Laaton ke bhoot, baton se nahin maante!

[Liu]

[quote="harbans"]From the Falun Gong website here are the reasons according to it why it's persecuted:

that is its advertisement.

have you seen its websites in chinese?