MRCA News and Discussion

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GeorgeWelch
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by GeorgeWelch »

ravi_ku wrote:
GeorgeWelch wrote:He can talk all he wants, but at the end of the day Russia will do exactly that. They won't allow UAC to fail anymore than France and Germany will allow the A400M to fail.
or US will allow Citibank and co to fail.
or GM for that matter, exactly
ravi_ku wrote:If Obam said the same thing about them, would you or I found anything wrong with it?
The "you can't expect us to keep bailing you out" is a bit eye-roll inducing since that is exactly what they will keep doing.
"I would like to warn you against the illusion that the state will endlessly cover losses, bail out companies or correct mistakes by management," Obama says.
Yup, same reaction. Because clearly he will.

(I didn't vote for Obama if that matters.)
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Jean_M »

Some more infos about Rafale and IRSTs: According to a fighters special edition of a french magazine (DSI - got it at home if you want scans - in french), FSO-IT and NG are two distinct products:
- FSO-IT will only integrate a new optic channel (working on near IR wavelengths), space previousely occupied by the IRST will be left available in case of need. IT should enter service by 2012 with France's next batch (to be ordered this year).
- FSO NG will be a further advanced version scheduled for 2018-2020, IR& optic channels should be present.

Another interesting fact: given the experience feedbacks, FSO is no more considered an optional component so you are nowhere near seeing it disappear and it should be integrated to every plane. Optic channel was also preferred to IR given feedbacks, program manager are waiting for an expected breakthrough in this tech area before funding a new one.

On the other hand, quite similarly to F18's tank IRST, Damocles LDP front IR channel is said to have some advanced search & track capacities available for air to air purposes. Swiss evaluated them and seem to have been happily surprised (still quoting the mag). Comparison with F18's solution stops here however, the pod been lighter and having the advantage of not requiring a wet point. OTOH I don't know if we can call that a full fledged IRST. I guess it's an interesting capacity if you want to cover your full front sector (OSF can't look very down, being on the nose of the plane).
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by johnny_m »

Dear Jean,

I heard the UAE order may consist of Enhanced thrust Engines. Is that a possibility if Rafale is selected for the MRCA ?
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Willy »

Have the French thrown in the towel in the MMRCA competiton? Everyone other contender is promising goodies like total/major TOT(MIG/Gripen) and various political carrots nad joint production(Eurofighter) . Uncle Sam's machines come with their own arm twisting methods and carrots. But the French seem to be silent. The only way the Rafale stands a chance is if the French are willing for some major TOT and maybe joint development of future variants.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

France is a matter of funds.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Jean_M »

@johnny_m
UAE want their planes for 2012-2013 so if that option is required and developped it should be available to India.

@Willy
Full ToT following requirements has already been promised. Rafale is already proposed with full options (except maybe nuclear :) ) At this point, thee is very little info on the proposal as the french gov has decided not to communicate on this kind of hot topic before we reach advanced stages of the deal.

I hope Bazilian and UAE deals (which are expected to be closed earlier) will give us more hints.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

A most pertinant observation by a critic and expert on British defence planning,that has universal truths in it,something that should be applied to the MMRCA acquisition in particular.Cross posted in the Afghan thraead.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 807145.ece

By jingo, we’re short of ships, men and money
Over there and underfunded: young soldiers are paying a heavy price for the Government’s neglect of the Armed Forces
Mr Gray observes that the MoD has “a substantially overheated equipment programme, with too many types of equipment being ordered for too large a range of tasks at too high a specification”. He states that present projects are over budget by £35 billion and will arrive five years later than expected. He asks: “How can it be that it takes 20 years to buy a ship, or aircraft, or tank? Why does it always seem to cost at least twice what was thought? Even worse, at the end of the wait, why does it never quite seem to do what it is supposed to?”
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Drevin »

Jean_M this forum needs some info on rbe2 integration with meteor.
Things like:
~ how many meteors will Rafale carry.....?
~ How soon will Dassault begin testing meteor on a Rafale F3aesa configuration...maybe 2010?
~ Will Dassault offer meteor as part of the mrca deal ??
~ What is the future for MICA IR ?? Will this missile morph into dual-seeker, ramjet propulsion ??

You are the right person to make comments on this critical topics.

Brazilian deal is moving real fast ..... looks like they already know what they want.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

Mr Gray observes that the MoD has “a substantially overheated equipment programme, with too many types of equipment being ordered for too large a range of tasks at too high a specification”. He states that present projects are over budget by £35 billion and will arrive five years later than expected. He asks: “How can it be that it takes 20 years to buy a ship, or aircraft, or tank? Why does it always seem to cost at least twice what was thought? Even worse, at the end of the wait, why does it never quite seem to do what it is supposed to?”
Get rid of the threat and there would be no need for any arms!!! Reduce the threats and we can surely gain control over the defense weapons we purchase!!!!!!!

Conversely, IF there is a threat, it will always evolve in relationship to the "defenses" being designed - forget built.

IMHO, it is politicians that create threats and they need to manage it first - in honesty.

Then there is the company that is trying to invent and make money.

Then there are people who are not happy with making money, they want to MAKE MONEY.

Strategists - unfortunately - surface when it is too late.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Igorr »

Pretty good news from Fazotron's chief: Zhuk-AE (680 MMICs) full capability for standard air target (3 m2 RSC) detection is 250 km ! Have spoken with him personally on MAKS-2009. Details.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Dmurphy »

SLAP for the Super Hornet

The one- and two-seat Super Hornets began a service life assessment program, or SLAP, last year. That’s the first step to determine how long the planes will last and what significant repairs may be needed to extend them beyond their initial minimum life span of 6,000 flight hours....

The latest reports say those older aircraft will have to retire earlier than expected, increasing the shortfall.....

The Navy initially hoped to extend the older Hornets to 10,000 flight hours, but their unexpectedly poor condition likely will make extension beyond 8,600 exorbitantly expensive, Navy officials said....

Boeing, which makes the Super Hornets, has been eager to forge a new multi-year contract with the Navy to sell dozens of new Super Hornets at roughly $50 million per aircraft....
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

Paging Houston...

I think I just saw the dark outline of a F-16 against the Bangalore Sky... :shock: :-?

Are LM fellows expected any time doon?
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

Super Hag,,,sorry,Super Horny's price for Brazil (latest Flight Intl),price given to the US Congress for approval,for 38 aircraft plus supporting engines,missiles,etc.is ...$7 Billion! Rafale and Gripen prices not available as yet.This works out to almost $160 million per aircraft.At this rate,for 126 aircraft for India in a similar package,the deal would be worth at least $22 Billion!!! What a price to pay for such an old hag.

Exact details of the deal later on.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

Dmurphy wrote:SLAP for the Super Hornet

The one- and two-seat Super Hornets began a service life assessment program, or SLAP, last year. That’s the first step to determine how long the planes will last and what significant repairs may be needed to extend them beyond their initial minimum life span of 6,000 flight hours....

The latest reports say those older aircraft will have to retire earlier than expected, increasing the shortfall.....

The Navy initially hoped to extend the older Hornets to 10,000 flight hours, but their unexpectedly poor condition likely will make extension beyond 8,600 exorbitantly expensive, Navy officials said....

Boeing, which makes the Super Hornets, has been eager to forge a new multi-year contract with the Navy to sell dozens of new Super Hornets at roughly $50 million per aircraft....
As usual one has to track the legacy models against the Super Hornets.

Then, we are confusing the up front (fly away?) cost to the life costs. The $50 million per plane is not the total - life - cost for the USN. What it is I do not know.

Also, I am not sure if one can compare the cost for a naval plane to that of a air force plane. Perhaps we can get an idea of the MiG-29 vs. the 29K, but, even there it will not represent the complete picture.

On Brazil, I have to suspect that Brazil will be able to absorb a lot more than India on ToT - they if I read them right are ahead technically in most respects. IF that is true, then I expect Indian F-18s will be more expensive. But then India will be producing a LOT more, so that may even out the price?
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by GeorgeWelch »

NRao wrote:Then, we are confusing the up front (fly away?) cost to the life costs. The $50 million per plane is not the total - life - cost for the USN.
The $49 million is indeed the fly-away cost to the USN of new SHs in a multi-year procurement
NRao wrote:IF that is true, then I expect Indian F-18s will be more expensive. But then India will be producing a LOT more, so that may even out the price?
India will be doing local production, Brazil will not, huge difference (ie India's will be much cheaper).
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

India will be doing local production,
IIRC India will be the supply hub (at least that is true for the F-16) - India will supply spares to most, if not all, other customers.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Kartik »

Dmurphy wrote:SLAP for the Super Hornet

The one- and two-seat Super Hornets began a service life assessment program, or SLAP, last year. That’s the first step to determine how long the planes will last and what significant repairs may be needed to extend them beyond their initial minimum life span of 6,000 flight hours....

The latest reports say those older aircraft will have to retire earlier than expected, increasing the shortfall.....

The Navy initially hoped to extend the older Hornets to 10,000 flight hours, but their unexpectedly poor condition likely will make extension beyond 8,600 exorbitantly expensive, Navy officials said....

Boeing, which makes the Super Hornets, has been eager to forge a new multi-year contract with the Navy to sell dozens of new Super Hornets at roughly $50 million per aircraft....
I wanted to post a similar article, which has a few more details. keep in mind that in general, Naval aviation exacts a higher toll on fighters as compared to land based aviation. the fact that Super Hornets will last 6000 hours minimum and with a refit go on to 9000 hours hopefully, shows how rugged their construction really is, because carrier landings are very high stress landings with very high sink rates.

What it means for us- that the calculation of upfront costs for the MRCA should take this into account. any fighter that offers 20-25% more service life than others justifies being slightly more expensive, as it will last longer in service, or offer higher utilisation over the same period as other fighters and hopefully with the same amount of consumables (spares). this is unless the IAF has simply listed a figure (say 6000 hours) as the minimum service life and any fighter that simply MEETS the target gets a tick across that box, instead of getting any additional points for exceeding the mark.
Although they’ve been in the fleet for less than a decade, the Navy’s F/A-18 E/F Super Hornets already are undergoing a detailed inspection to determine their projected service life, Navy officials said.

The one- and two-seat Super Hornets began a service life assessment program, or SLAP, last year. That’s the first step to determine how long the planes will last and what significant repairs may be needed to extend them beyond their initial minimum life span of 6,000 flight hours.

The oldest Super Hornets have logged 3,200 to 3,800 flight hours, and Navy officials hope to extend that to 9,000, according Marcia Hart-Wise, a spokeswoman for the F/A-18 program office at Naval Air Systems Command.


The results of the SLAP will help shed new light on the “strike fighter gap,” the projected shortfall in fighter jets the Navy will face as F/A-18 A-D models begin retiring before their replacements, F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighters, join the fleet.

The gap has become a hot-button issue for the Navy as congressional lawmakers debate whether to spend millions on a new block of Super Hornets to bolster the fighter fleet until the carrier version of the F-35 arrives in 2015.

The Navy is closely studying the condition of the A through D models, which were put into service in the 1980s and are nearing the end of their service life. The latest reports say those older aircraft will have to retire earlier than expected, increasing the shortfall.

The Navy initially hoped to extend the older Hornets to 10,000 flight hours, but their unexpectedly poor condition likely will make extension beyond 8,600 exorbitantly expensive, Navy officials said.


The SLAP for the Super Hornets could, for the first time, draw those planes into the fighter gap equation, altering projections about the future fleet size and the urgency of buying new planes.

“They want to know what kind of work would be needed to extend the E and F series, and how much would it cost,” said Richard Aboulafia, a defense consultant with the Teal Group in Virginia.

Boeing, which makes the Super Hornets, has been eager to forge a new multi-year contract with the Navy to sell dozens of new Super Hornets at roughly $50 million per aircraft.

Building the future fighter fleet

The Navy’s study of its existing Super Hornets will examine the costs and benefits of extending the life of those aircraft. That in turn will help Navy leaders and lawmakers determine whether to buy more F-35s or Super Hornets.

Examining the Super Hornets will help shape that debate in the coming years.

“The tac-air gap will evolve each year. Any tac-air gap will have to look at all service life extension programs and models,” said Jim McAleese, principal at the McAleese and Associates defense consulting firm in Virginia.

Data on the Super Hornets’ life will help address any skepticism from the Office of the Secretary of Defense about the nature and scope of the shortfall, he said.

“OSD is going to be very concerned about the how credible and how genuine the tac-air gap is,” McAleese said.

Super Hornet 101

The Navy has begun to assess the life span of the fleet’s roughly 300 F/A-18 E/F Super Hornets.

Past: The first Super Hornet, an F/A-18E, was delivered to Strike Fighter Squadron 115 and deployed with the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln in July 2002.

Present: The Navy is still receiving new Hornets from Boeing’s active production line. The oldest aircraft have logged 3,200 to 3,800 flight hours.

Future: While the Super Hornets were designed to reach at least 6,000 flight hours, the Navy hopes to develop an affordable service life extension program for the planes to reach 9,000 lifetime flight hours.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by putnanja »

GeorgeWelch wrote:
NRao wrote:IF that is true, then I expect Indian F-18s will be more expensive. But then India will be producing a LOT more, so that may even out the price?
India will be doing local production, Brazil will not, huge difference (ie India's will be much cheaper).
Not necessarily. For SU-30MKI, the local production costs were much more than what was paid for the outright purchase. In fact, the CAG too commented on this.

And it is not going to be totally local production. Initial ones will probably be just CKD kits assembled in India. Depends on the percentage of TOT. The cost of the avionics and engine will be much higher compared to the basic frame. I am pretty sure we won't be getting the AESA radar tech, nor will we get the core engine tech.

My guess is that the locally produced/assembled MRCA will probably cost around 10-15% cheaper than outright purchase during the second half of the production run, irrespective of which aircraft gets chosen. The offsets would produce increased employment in India, and some amount of TOT would give a boost to our local companies and the fact that the money is spent within the country boosting our economy instead of some other country's.

The amount of crucial ToT might differ across vendors, and I think Mig might offer the most as they have nothing to lose.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by GeorgeWelch »

RaviBg wrote:
GeorgeWelch wrote: India will be doing local production, Brazil will not, huge difference (ie India's will be much cheaper).
Not necessarily. For SU-30MKI, the local production costs were much more than what was paid for the outright purchase. In fact, the CAG too commented on this.
Well that's funny, earlier we had people explaining how great a deal the MKI was and how the local units were $X million cheaper than the ones from Russia.

I don't know enough about the situation to say anything besides that there is a lot of misinformation flying around.
RaviBg wrote:The amount of crucial ToT might differ across vendors, and I think Mig might offer the most as they have nothing to lose.
You're already getting Russia's best with the FGFA, what else can you hope to gain from the MiG-35?
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Drevin »

George the FGFA is in a different weight class compared to the MMRCA. India is gravitating towards a 3-tier structure for its airforce in a broad sense.

The MRCA is meant for the middle-tier which cannot be occupied by fgfa acquisition.

jmt
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Singha »

in one of the articles IAF mentions the yardstick is to meet some criteria and no extra points for exceeding that by any margin.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Drevin wrote:George the FGFA is in a different weight class compared to the MMRCA. India is gravitating towards a 3-tier structure for its airforce in a broad sense.

The MRCA is meant for the middle-tier which cannot be occupied by fgfa acquisition.
We were talking about technology transfer which is independent of weight class.

The know-how to build a good AESA can be applied to both small and large planes.

Since India is already getting all of Russia's best technology through the FGFA program, there really is no technological gain from selecting the MiG-35.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by kuldipchager »

Sure We are getting lot of tetchnolgy with fgfa and lot of tetch we can add to Mig 35.In this case Mig 35 will also be close to 5th generation fighter/bomber.I don't any contender can provide that.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Nihat »

kuldipchager wrote:Sure We are getting lot of tetchnolgy with fgfa and lot of tetch we can add to Mig 35.In this case Mig 35 will also be close to 5th generation fighter/bomber.I don't any contender can provide that.
The future of Mig-35 depends on India and that has 2 sides to it . Either the Russians will go all the way by providing classified tech. to India in terms of AESA and Engine tech. or the after sales service will become worse as time progresses since Mig-35 does not have the large scale backing of RuAF or any other export market.

The SH has the full backing of USN and other export buyers , Rafale and EF are backed by their respective natioons or consortiums or the next 20 years At least.

Mig-35 may seem a sweet deal now but what would it give us by way of future headaches.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Igorr »

GeorgeWelch wrote: Since India is already getting all of Russia's best technology through the FGFA program, there really is no technological gain from selecting the MiG-35.
On other side there is not a need to pay twice for same technology, like AESA or engines. ;) What could be an expedience for for example american AESA technology purchasing if India get the same from Russia with FGFA?
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Shankar »

practiacally speaking -how many advanced technology aircraft we can absorb at the same time . IAF engineers are fully exposed to Russian system for donkeys years and that includes HAL too since most of the 126/200 is likely to be manufactured here .

As on date - MIG 35 is a clear winner -everything is in its favor as am listing below -( by the way as suggested by some of you dont get a few million ruble from russia for justifying Mig 35 -do it because it simply the best)

- the AESA have cleared all trails .Russia has agreed to manufacture T/R modules in India
- quickest induction time
-quickest time to start manufacturing
-commonality with existing fleet of 29/29k
- existing pilot pool
-existing engineering pool
-quickest to upgrade existing manufacturing base
-existing BRD can be used
- commonalty of weapon inventory
- commonality of logistics chain
- engine manufacturing facility

- most likely cheapest and hence maximym number can be inducted

we need 200 at least - we need 200 Mig 35 which may be inducted from 2013 onwards at the rate of 30-40 per year some from Russia some made in India just like we dis with sukhois

now that you have seen the internals of mig 35 and from outside we have seen in aero 2007 what reservation can any one have ?
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Singha »

Mig-35 :rotfl: :rotfl:
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Tanaji »

Purely out of curiosity, do you have Russian relatives Shankar? Perhaps a doting father-in-law?
Last edited by JaiS on 26 Aug 2009 18:16, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: No need to get personal, please desist from such posts in the future
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Anabhaya »

What would happen if we buy MiG-35? Almost our entire fighter fleet will be dependent on Russia. We will field 230 Su-30 and another 70 MiG-29's into the next decade. If you add another 200 Russian aircrafts then it will be end up at nearly 70% of fleet being Russian.

Need to diversify.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Surya »

Purely out of curiosity, do you have Russian relatives Shankar? Perhaps a doting father-in-law?
:rotfl:

I think that will be lost on shankarosky

NRao explains how the Mig's logistic supply chain seems to be assembling a couple of parts at a time and Shankar asks
what reservation can any one have ?
:eek:

unreliable suppliers
unreliable decrepit logistics chain
broken down decrepit manufacturing system - pretty much assembling a piece here and a piece there
we will be sole buyers
host country pretty much not interested


so on

But its useless - against the might os Shankarosky
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by nrshah »

Surya wrote:But its useless - against the might os Shankarosky
Surya wrote: I think that will be lost on shankarosky
Tanaji wrote:Purely out of curiosity, do you have Russian relatives Shankar? Perhaps a doting father-in-law?
Friends,

Let us not get personal and degrade the forum. Every one has his views and we are here to discuss it.

Besides, Shankar has noted the advantage of Mig 35. Can any of us deny them?
Of course, there are some disadvantages too. But then again, is there any contender which does not have one.

-Nitin
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Nihat »

Anabhaya wrote:What would happen if we buy MiG-35? Almost our entire fighter fleet will be dependent on Russia. We will field 230 Su-30 and another 70 MiG-29's into the next decade. If you add another 200 Russian aircrafts then it will be end up at nearly 70% of fleet being Russian.

Need to diversify.
but we would be replacing 400 odd Mig-21 with LCA , Inshallah
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Shankar »

Purely out of curiosity, do you have Russian relatives Shankar? Perhaps a doting father-in-law?
no I dont have one -but wish I had one -Russian women are the best looking in the world and most gutsy and intelligent too
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Shankar »

What would happen if we buy MiG-35? Almost our entire fighter fleet will be dependent on Russia. We will field 230 Su-30 and another 70 MiG-29's into the next decade. If you add another 200 Russian aircrafts then it will be end up at nearly 70% of fleet being Russian.
well lets face some basic simple facts -we are dependent on Russia -you like it or not the situation on ground says so fjust buying some super expensive rafales is not going to change the equilibrium

we still will need russian help with our rest of the fleet including the mighty sukhois -dont get taken in by the HAL hog wash about 100% indigenous manufacture capability

we need russian help with our nuclear and conventional submarine big time

we need Russian help with our space programe big way

we need russian help with our surface ships

we need russian help with Brahmos and its next variant

so just by buying some super bugs in the name of diversifying makes a sill argument

best thing is they have never sanctioned us and that is the most important part of the deal

imagine 200 of our latest being grounded for spares or source code because sooner or later we are going to test a thermo nuke or launch an ICBM

only country which will not sanction us is Russia -that is why need the mig 35

apart from all the reasons listed above
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Shankar »

oh forgot to mention

we need russian help with our 700 odd t-90s
we need russian help with mi 17 s mi 26
we need russian help with bmp3 or the indian version called ICV
we need russian help with smerch

and ofcourse we need russian for the Vikramaditya
and the mig 29k upgrades
and the future of IAF T-50

you planning to replace all these -please tell me how

first lets ask a quote from US for a virginia class sub and a reactor design
then talk to them about join production of F-22
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Shankar »

we need to be realistic
200+ su-30 is the real strength of IAF today meaning 2012
the Tu 142 s are todays only effective long range strike option
it should be carrying brahmos soon

The new 200 Mig 35 will add a solid power projection capability to IAF fastest and cheapest and that is why I support Mig 35
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Shankar »

By the way the LCA engine was also tested on a Russian flying testbed -in case you dont know or dont want to know
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

As promised,the details of the "tricks" and price of a sh*g with the Super Hag!

Now the final price that Brazil has been offered for its FX-2 requirement is:
36 F/A-18 E/Fs for "around $7 Billion".

The breakup is 28 F/A-18Es and 8 two-seat F/A-18Fs.Along with the aircraft comes the foll. package of "tricks".

1.76 GE F414-400 engines.

2.36 Raytheon APG-76 AESA radars.

3.26 each of AIM-120C7 AMRAAMs and AIM9M Sidewinder missiles.

4.36 AGM98B HARM anti-radar missiles.

5.60 Boeing GBU 31/32/ JDAMs.

6.36 Raytheon ASQ-22B advanced targeting FLIR pods,plus countermeasures,EW and self-protective equipment.

Prices for the Gripen and rafale are not yet known,but the rafale appears to be the favourite especially as France is assisting Brazil to build nuclear subs.Having operated US eqpt. before,Brazil is not so concerned about US EUM.Deliveries are to start in 2014 and the final decision is to be announced by October this year.This is a date eagerly anticipated,as whoever wins the Brazilian contract gets "pole position" for the Indian MMRCA deal.

The price is phenomenal for an aircraft of tech that started out in the '70s.It works out to approx. to just under $200 million per aircraft (including the extra tricks) ! That is the price that the F-22 is being touted at.Going by this yardstick (and I posted earlier the similar price that Oz was being stung for for 24 F-18SHs),126 aircraft for India with the same quantum of engines,misisles,etc.,would be in the range of $25 Billion!!!
Even if a hefty discount is gioven ,say about $5 Billion,the deal would still cost around $20 Billion.

This to me is simply an unacceptable figure for ANY of the contenders.We could get around 15-20 Akulas SSGNs/Arihants SSBNs (just 5 F-18SHs are equivalent to one nuclear sub!) for that price.Including missiles and eqpt. as is being offered to the Brazilians,the price for an MMRCA aircraft with an AESA radar should not exceed $55-65 million per piece max. plus TOT.Given these figures,the Gripen and MIG-35 should be the lowest on offer,as I cannot see the IAF wanting to operate the F-16 which Pak has and is getting upgraded significantly with Turkish assistance.Cost is going to be in my opinion the most vital factor-all other parameters of the requirements being met.
Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5030
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Surya »

Wow

so since we got ourselves foolishly bogged down on russian dependency - the only way to get out of it is to be MORE dependent on Russia



wow

As for
no I dont have one -but wish I had one -Russian women are the best looking in the world and most gutsy and intelligent too
says a lot :) Now I understand in your love for all things Russian you put down our nuke program, our sub program, etc. etc. but putting down ..... (you see how you tangle yourself for the natashas )




In the spirit of compromise - I would support the Mig 35 if it does perform well AND they move the whole factory lock, stock and barrel along with all the personnel, all the design docs, specs yada yada.

Get me that and I will agree for the 35

Now lets see how much your Russian in laws are willing to love you :)
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19335
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

Shankar,

And your point is?
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