What is the effect of Jaswant Singh being expelled

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 21 Aug 2009 14:38

When humor is explained it becomes a serious issue.
Its like attempting to answer "SHQs question how much do you love me"?. Nothing can truly transmit the tender feelings that mutally engulfing them ( it could also be flame or old flame rekindled).

***
Shiv ji with his Skanda Purana ( ancient in Hindi , in sanskrit devine story) has divulged the upanishads

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 21 Aug 2009 14:40

Sanku wrote:Where does Bengal or Bengali's come into the picture? Who has used it to describe Bengalis? That would of course be unacceptable.

My friend the root is from deifying Patel, Gandhi and Nehru and making them divine.

I am not with Jaswant Singh, but then if he has written something radically different from the myth and legend perpetuated about Nehru and Gandhi, I, as a person who has lost his heath and home don't find it objectionable. Indeed, for their damned personal ambition, they sold the Bengalis of East Bengal short. And if you want us to deify these individuals are Gods and divine, then I sure have a problem.

The characters are human as human as you and me and so I accept their human foibles as part of life, even though they made us destitute while you all thrived in the grandeur of Independence and Freedom!!

Got that?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Aug 2009 14:40

ray sir, about the SDRE issue.
http://sites.google.com/site/brfdiction ... ary/s/sdre

it's not necessarily an accurate description for some of us but since we don't carry any baggage with being either short or dark we don't have any problems in using this term wrt ourselves.

Not understood!

Even if it is for Bangladeshi, I object!

They are also Bengali, even if their religion is different.

you completely misunderstood, first of all religion has absolutely nothing to do with it.
in fact I don't understand why you needed to bring the completely off-topic issue of religion into this.

the term was term was started by pakistanis circa 1971 to justify the atrocities on the bangladeshi population (as in "we are tall fair and wheat eating, they are short dark and rice eating. hence we are superior"). in time they applied the same epithets to Indians and is meant to be a demeaning reference

on BR, unlike pakistanis, people do not buy the racist ideas that being tall or fair is somehow superior to being short or/and dark and hence use the terms to refer to self as a way to mock the racist beliefs of most pakistanis.

Punjabis got compensation, Not us!

yes, I'm more than aware of the compensation issue to refugees, having highlighted it (probably the first time on BR) about a year back in the fake hindu liberal thread.
I think I also had a long discussion on this with munna ji. (munna ji if it was someone else please forgive me)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Aug 2009 14:41

RayC wrote: If I were to say Mysore is actually where Mahishasur, the demon originated from and all Kannadigas are basically demons and should be sorted out, how would you feel?

No RayC - Kannadigas are demons. And they are SDRE demons at that - check Deve Gowda, or worse, Bangarappa.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 21 Aug 2009 14:42

John Snow wrote: Sanku Bengal comes into picture if you look Noth By North east in Indian map ( as you stand or sit in front of it)
In military parlance, it is about 1.30 to 2.00 clock

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 21 Aug 2009 14:43

Rahul,

Rabindranath had said:

You can be a friend of the enemy through loss of character.

What BRF has to say is not material.

It is also no God as neither is Gandhi, Patel and Nehru or the modern idols of Indian politics!

I am quite proud to be what I am.

I don't care if others are not and who would like to melt into the crowd.

I never did so in my life and I don't think I would so now!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Aug 2009 14:45

RayC wrote:
I don't care what is your ways of doing things and Pakistanis be damned.

I feel offended.

I have said this before too!

RayC - the expression was not coined to offend you. I will write a detailed explanation when passions are cooler and in some other thread.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Aug 2009 14:46

John Snow wrote: Sanku Bengal comes into picture if you look Noth By North east in Indian map ( as you stand or sit in front of it)
In military parlance, it is about 1.30 to 2.00 clock

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 21 Aug 2009 14:50

shiv wrote:
RayC wrote: If I were to say Mysore is actually where Mahishasur, the demon originated from and all Kannadigas are basically demons and should be sorted out, how would you feel?

No RayC - Kannadigas are demons. And they are SDRE demons at that - check Deve Gowda, or worse, Bangarappa.

I think you have missed the right example, I remember Manjunath in Swami, as being really short and dark not to mention they kept showing him eating rice all the time. I also distinctly remember him being called a demon by his parents etc very often.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 21 Aug 2009 14:51

shiv wrote:
RayC wrote: If I were to say Mysore is actually where Mahishasur, the demon originated from and all Kannadigas are basically demons and should be sorted out, how would you feel?

No RayC - Kannadigas are demons. And they are SDRE demons at that - check Deve Gowda, or worse, Bangarappa.

That maybe your idea.

However, when I was there, I was marvelled to see so much of commonality with Bengali culture.

There were Durga Temples and

The most famous Dusshera celebrations in Karnataka take place Mysore in Karnataka, which is also known as ‘Nadahabba.’

It is also believed that during this period Lord Ram performed ‘Chandi Puja’ to invoke the blessings of Goddess Durga for slaying Ravana. Pleased with Lord Ram, Goddess Durga or Goddess Chamundeswari

http://www.hindu-blog.com/2008/09/dasar ... -2008.html

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 21 Aug 2009 14:54

Sanku,

I have no idea of Manjunath.

It is most unfortunate that his parents should have thought him so.

Odd parents.

I am sure very few parents produce the beauty of Helen of Troy or like Adonis!

My point is simple - no leader of India past or present are Gods or divine. They have feet of clay as you and me and so can be analysed!

I will be damned if the RSS, the BJP or the damned Congress (salman Rushdie's book') can become Thought Police.

I don't live in an Islamic state!!

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 21 Aug 2009 14:56

Now we have proof

The argumentative Indian

If one Bengali, he is a philosopher, poet

If two Bengalis, then there is a discussion, disagreement and division.

If there Bengalis then four parties.

What Bengal thinks today India may think tomorrow Gopala Krishna Ghokhle ( a telugu settled in Maharashtra as some Telugus claim and Marathis contest hotly!

)

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 21 Aug 2009 14:58

No argumentative John.

Just a proud Indian who does not kowtow to popular imagery just because the majority wants to bulldoze!!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Aug 2009 14:59

RayC my late father was a "naturalized Bengali". His childhood connection with Bengal was reinforced by my brother's sojourn in IIT Kharagpur. In later life he only read Bengali books, and had a collection of Bengali music (tapes and records) and Videos. For those who enjoy KC Dass outlets in Bangalore - I can say that my dad played a role in helping to set up the industrial scale production of the foods and we still get several KGs of sweets as gifts delivered to us at home.

The ability to find commonality with another Indian is an Indian characteristic. But my twisted mind also tells me that those who live by mocking differences need to be isolated and mocked after isolating them.

In no quarter, no space, no corner should bigots find solace. For their racism - Pakis on the internet who lurk on BRF need to know they are being laughed at even as their mockery fails to work.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 21 Aug 2009 15:04

Try philosophy when reasoning fails

Spinster

**
ok Rahul ji I dont want to puzzle you for long.

Where does bengal come into the picture

Picture in the above context is , how does it fit into the discussion as meant by the author of it.

Picture also means drawing,(map) portrait, depiction, represenataion.

so the answer was standing or sitting infront of the map( picture) if you look at it in the direction of North by North east (in compass) or in clock when the small hand ( assuming analog not digital

) points to 1 oclock past and between 2 oclock you will find the state of Bengal.

So it was play of words
Now got the picture ( I hope) other wise I will have to borrow your emoticon.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 21 Aug 2009 15:07

SVP was the architect of modern India. He travelled across length and bredth of India to pursuade kings to give up their kingdom and accept the state allowance in the lieu. Nehru did not influence any of them nor any of them believed in the word of Nehru. If it was not him there would not have been any land reforms in whole India which would have remain a feudal system like pakistan. If it was not for SVP Kashmir valley would have seen the biggest hindu genocide of all times and needless to say the modern Kashmir would not have been part of India. If India would not have been partitioned it would have been in an unending war like somalia with muslims and hindus killing each other off day in and day out. SVP wanted India - muslims because he believed that if we are giving away a separate homeland to muslims which was a hindu land we should get rid of all the muslims in India. However, Nehru and most importantly Mahatma Gandhi did not agree to it because of their so called "secular" image. Sardar did not want partition any other way. However, he was a big time follower of MG and would take any of his orders. In this case he changed his stand and agreed that muslims in India who want to be in India will be allowed to remain in India.

JS and other feudal lords have been cutdown big time by SVP in land reforms. They lost hundreds of acres of land and his dislike of SVP can be easily justified.

Banning the book in Gujarat is related to questioning of role of SVP in India's partition. Questioning one's role is a very easy thing to do. I can question the role of each and every freedom fighter in India including Mangal Pandey. But if I question someone's role without giving an alternate solution to the problem, I will be branded nuts. Atleast that is true in field of Science and Technology. In this case JS is nuts because he questioned the role of a person/s without providing an alternative solution or a hit of it. So banning the book which is based on conspiracy theory is justified.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Aug 2009 15:17

ashish raval wrote: In this case JS is nuts because he questioned the role of a person/s without providing an alternative solution or a hit of it. So banning the book which is based on conspiracy theory is justified.

I presume you are saying this after reading the book.

I would appreciate some quotes if the book is nearby.

kvraghav · Post by **kvraghav** » 21 Aug 2009 15:18

^^
But i thought SDRE was aterm usually associated with south indians because of the dark aspect.But getting flack from different corners.Anyways my feeling on this issue is:
You may be an individual but when you associate yourself with a group,then you attach to its ideology and Jinna is considered non secular because of the Direct Action Day incident.By calling him secular you dis associate yourself from the group thoughts and so Group dis associates from you.Individually you can have your veiws and thats why no ones gonna sue you because thats your personal view and also a comment like this from a person who is a stalwart as well as in the think tank,then it will be perceived as the party statements no matter what.This is a ideological reason and Advani should also been sacked going by this.But a political reason and the most probable one is:They are paving a way to nominate a new leader without dissident from anyone and thats why this show and a silent man is made scrape goat..

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 21 Aug 2009 15:21

Especially so when you write about somebody who is/are deceased. They cant sue for libel. But some creative lawyer can bring class action suit? no

What if someone writes that Nehru got Gandhiji assasinated should it be banned?

Banning is flaming the sales, already there is a pent up demand for the book in BRF itself.

The only reason I did not buy Mushy book is even though Barnes and Nobel says its 60% off, I know when it comes to Mushy the right price 400% off. I dont want Mushy to make money over the deadbody of Lt. Kalia.

Another idea I thought of hurting Mushy, is by buying one copy and copy it again again but not give to anybody so that it will hurt , but then I realised what do I do with that copy of copies. ( I dont want anybody to read his lies) I get hurt.

So I said sell it and donate the money to IA soldiers benefit programs. But by the time I thought of it Mushy's best friends taller than mountains PRC was already printing loads of it and supplying Borders book Stores.

Ah those Americans, they pay Mushy and then again pay mushy by reading his lies.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 21 Aug 2009 15:23

shiv wrote:RayC my late father was a "naturalized Bengali". His childhood connection with Bengal was reinforced by my brother's sojourn in IIT Kharagpur. In later life he only read Bengali books, and had a collection of Bengali music (tapes and records) and Videos. For those who enjoy KC Dass outlets in Bangalore - I can say that my dad played a role in helping to set up the industrial scale production of the foods and we still get several KGs of sweets as gifts delivered to us at home.

The ability to find commonality with another Indian is an Indian characteristic. But my twisted mind also tells me that those who live by mocking differences need to be isolated and mocked after isolating them.

In no quarter, no space, no corner should bigots find solace. For their racism - Pakis on the internet who lurk on BRF need to know they are being laughed at.

I feel good that your father is a naturalised Bengali.

However, I have no time for parroting Pakistani aspersions top be the Gospel.

I have no objection if the Indians doing so are closeted Pakistanis!

Let them have the moral courage to say that they are closeted Pakistanis.

After the Delhi High Court verdict, closeted Homosexuals are coming out in the open, so why can't these people too?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Aug 2009 15:24

John Snow wrote:
Another idea I thought of hurting Mushy, is by buying one copy and copy it again again but not give to anybody so that it will hurt , but then I realised what do I do with that copy of copies. ( I dont want anybody to read his lies) I get hurt.

I have the pdf if you want..

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 21 Aug 2009 15:27

Lest I am mistaken to be a Congress hack, I must say that would be wrong an assessment.

I am a nationalist and a rationalist.

If Arun Jaitly feels Sardar Patel was divine and beyond having feet of clay as all human beings have, then let him say so.

Let us put his statues as idols in temples in his honour.

I always appreciated this man's articulate and precise analysis of political issues, but then the BJP debacle seems to have made him leave a hold of his rationale thinking of yore!

It is true that Sardar Patel put things in place to make what is India today, but then he is no God. Or is he?

I have immense parochial (if you will) respect for Netaji Subash Bose. However, he is no God for me! He also made errors. Or didn't he?

My family had to lose their home and hearth because of Jinnah, Nehru and Gandhi and even old Patel!

So, are they great visionaries and has divinity being bestowed on them so much so we are afraid to analyse them and their compulsions?

Good old Father of the nation Mahatma Gandhi had shouted earlier "partition on my dead body"
Over my Dead Body

also

Over Gandhi's dead body

What happened?

Many innocents dies for the personal ambitions of these men. Are their personal ambition greater than the lives that were lost? Therefore, are they great heroes? Maybe to those who were not affected and their brood live happily ever after. But what about those who lost their families and friends and their livelihood and lands to satiate the ambitions and personal egos of these defied and divine gentlemen?

How come, we lost our home and hearth even when he was alive and kicking and our people were dead?

Let's get pragmatic!!

Are these divine jokes of India i.e. Gandhi and Nehru fair?

The Punjabi refugees got compensation and each one claimed that they had land as big as west Pakistan and we Bengalees were under Evacuee Properties Act?

Bengalis second class Indian

The problem is that India is only of the North Indians and West Indians!

The trouble with most of you is that you remind me of the Beatles song - Tell me what you see now, what you see is me

If you let me take your heart I will prove to you,
We will never be apart if I'm part of you.
Open up your eyes now, tell me what you see.
It is no surprise now, what you see is me.

But then you are so blind and damned self centred!!

I respect Patel since he saved us from losing more area but then he is no God to me.

Gandhi pretended to be a sage and like Nehru he was interested in his own personal glorification, power and ambition!

It good to see everyone meandering and avoiding, how about answering this?

Any answers, your brilliant people?

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 21 Aug 2009 15:28

Ok I give up

"Win an argument Lose a friend"

Its 6 am EST I better sleep and go to work for bread and butter or write a book as explosive as Jasoo Mithaiwala,

BJP ka kismat itna Khatta kardi ya yaar no? What ray? (as they used to say in Anglo community of Secunderabad listening Elvis Priestly in the 1960s)

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 21 Aug 2009 15:36

RayC wrote: It good to see everyone meandering and avoiding, how about answering this?

Any answers, your brilliant people?

I am not clear what the question is, if the your point is that no leader should be made into a god and they are humans with success and failures, yes I agree with you.

I also agree that banning a book is foolish thing to do, esp if it is in only one state -- unless of course you want to give it publicity and have a lot of people buy it.

I have no clue why or how could a Independent India have different standards for refugees from west and east, can not be justified really.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 21 Aug 2009 15:38

I have no clue why or how could a Independent India have different standards for refugees from west and east, can not be justified really.

Hopefully, the Indians of the North and West have the clue how not to have different standards for the NE of India.

Please visit and see the difference.

There are Indians in India and there are Indians who are in India but out of the vision of India of the insufferable 'mainstream' that is North and to a less extent, West!!!!

It is not only the NE, but all tribal all over India!!

If you have no clue of how people are differently treated, then read and understand and not seat yourself on the high horse!

There are people like some of Bengal and here who have not suffered and so they are happy. But those who have, are sad, but resigned to the fate - a great Hindu quality!!

Notwithstanding, I am proud to be an Indian, but I am not a tonga horse with blinkers (and to the modern Indian used to the US stuff - blinders and their kinship to the Americans they so proudly flaunt as if that is the last thing in salvation from their days of abject poverty and self imposed indignity of their natural colour)!

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 21 Aug 2009 15:48

shiv wrote:
ashish raval wrote: In this case JS is nuts because he questioned the role of a person/s without providing an alternative solution or a hit of it. So banning the book which is based on conspiracy theory is justified.
I presume you are saying this after reading the book.

I would appreciate some quotes if the book is nearby.

I am waiting for amazon uk to make it available. I have posted my views based on what I have read from excerpts on web. I though believe that it is premature to discredit Jaswant. So far as I know, SVP was one person who would be the last person to let Hindu land cutdown. If he would have agreed, it would have been due to massive pressure and not his personal choice as concluded by JS.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Aug 2009 15:59

The Punjabi refugees got compensation and each one claimed that they had land as big as west Pakistan and we Bengalees were under Evacuee Properties Act?

I would like to hear/read more information about this. Any links?

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 21 Aug 2009 16:02

It is true so did sindhis LKg Clan, from Karachi and other parts of Sindh provence

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 21 Aug 2009 16:04

RayC wrote:
I have no clue why or how could a Independent India have different standards for refugees from west and east, can not be justified really.
If you have no clue of how people are differently treated, then read and understand and not seat yourself on the high horse!
!

RayC, I dont know who is sitting on the high horse, from where I am it appears to be you, right down to the chabuk, however letting that be, I am more than well aware of how the GoI follows different standard in dealing with different states depending on what the current political equations are, however I do not think that there is any "discrimination" based on region.

When I said I have no clue why there was a difference, I do not mean that what happened was good or I support it or anything like that.

Frankly I have no idea what you are discussing here, since it is all very different from JS episode anyway.

I dont even think I am disputing you in anyway, and so there fore I am very confused in what exactly I have done to raise your ire frankly.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 21 Aug 2009 16:08

There is ray of hope if people desist from confronting confusing issues. when in confusion go for diffusion, not infusion.

Take a deep breath (every breath you take police{song}) and say AUM and follow the chart

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Aug 2009 16:28

We are,or claim to be a free society,that is except Gujarat,the state of the Mahatama! Any Indian has the right to write or espouse any kind of garbage or gold,without interference.That is his birthright,as long as it remains within the law.If there is libel or slander from an individual,the courts are the recourse to injury.

In JS's case,he has now been turned into a martyr.The best response to his book was for the BJP to come out with its own book or booklet on the issue,refuting his findings word for word..if that were possible.The indecent haste with which he was expelled,when his book has only just been launched (delayed several times by him on behalf of party requests),without even a party clique asked to look into it at least for the fig leaf of propriety,smacks of a personal vendetta being played out.It shows that the party is autocratic in the extreme.By granting Jaswant so much of needless publicity,it has made the book an historic tome where JS is now (thanks to Mr.Modi) being spoken of in the same breadth as Rushdie!

The BJP appears to be still smarting from the monumental defeat of the last election,has not come to terms with the reasons why it lost and has picked upon a ready,opportune victim for its vengeance.It reminds me of the old tale of the boss blasting his exec.,who in turn beats his wife,who then thrashes the servant who goes and kicks the dog! The country is fed up with old men...of the Congress,the Communists and the BJP,whose minds have atrophied and who cannot see that a new India with several hundred million of youthful voters, have desires and ambitions that the professional politicos of yesterday cannot comprehend and want change.

So much is being made of this book.How many schoolchildren today celebrated Independence Day with skits and plays and other tableaux depicting our gallant leaders of the Freedom Movement? These days we see no Films Division documentaries in our theatres on those historic days.The National Anthem is never played.This year,the most we had was the rerunning of Attenborough's Gandhi on TV!
Two years ago the 60th anniversary of our Independence came and went,so disgracefully and poorly celebrated by the govt. of the day.It was scandalous.Even the opposition parties failed in berating the govt. enough for this shameful failure.
Therefore,the hoo-ha being made about Jaswant's book is amazing.He has reminded us of the events of the freedom struggle that most Indians had forgotten about or had never heard about.

After all said Napoleon,"what is history but a fable agreed upon?"

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 21 Aug 2009 16:30

RayC wrote:
It is true that Sardar Patel put things in place to make what is India today, but then he is no God. Or is he?

What errors did he made could you elaborate ? explain this in context of an ill-defined problem whose solution is approximate and cannot have a perfect solution. Errors are justified if the solution is near to what is expected. No man is perfect or in other words a perfect man is not born so far in Kalyug.

I have immense parochial (if you will) respect for Netaji Subash Bose. However, he is no God for me! He also made errors. Or didn't he?

What is the point ? Do you present some solution to errors that he made or what would you have done if you were in his shoes ?

My family had to lose their home and hearth because of Jinnah, Nehru and Gandhi and even old Patel!

It was lost not only because of them, but series of unfortunate events, demographic and social distribution. I know it is painful but it makes persons tough.

So, are they great visionaries and has divinity being bestowed on them so much so we are afraid to analyse them and their compulsions?

no one is divine you can analyse them correctly when you step into their shoes, time, place and chaos, not by sitting in a/c chambers reading half-baked and half-recorded conversations and concluding half-truth out of it. One has to immerse oneself for decades into day-to-day activity of that era before convincingly proposing a theory.

Good old Father of the nation Mahatma Gandhi had shouted earlier "partition on my dead body"
Over my Dead Body

What would you do when you visualize that it is not physically possible.

Many innocents dies for the personal ambitions of these men. Are their personal ambition greater than the lives that were lost? Therefore, are they great heroes? Maybe to those who were not affected and their brood live happily ever after. But what about those who lost their families and friends and their livelihood and lands to satiate the ambitions and personal egos of these defied and divine gentlemen?

How come, we lost our home and hearth even when he was alive and kicking and our people were dead?

Let's get pragmatic!!

What personal ambition ! Partition was the only solution at that time. There would be India as you see today if it was not for partition. At best it would have been similar to Afghanistan or Somalia. Do you believe that thinking about a developed India being a vision or personal ambition ? Do you think setting up IIT's, IIM's, developing railways, dams etc being a personal ambition ? I clearly see it as a vision. I believe that if 95% could live happily through the solution it is a good solution. Majority in India believed that partition was a good idea. I dont have any doubt to reason otherwise. India was in chaos at the time, it is unfortunate that people have lost out in partition but that loss is much lower than what me and you would have suffered had it not for partition. India should compensate the displaced families of Bengal to atleast let old scars heal faster. I dont know about you but most of my Bengali friends who lost somethings during partition still believes that Partition of Bengal was good.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 21 Aug 2009 16:36

One needs to visit Africa to see how lucky India is to have come to where it is. Inida is better off because of partition. No questions about it.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 21 Aug 2009 16:37

John Snow wrote:It is true so did sindhis LKg Clan, from Karachi and other parts of Sindh provence

True John, I have known this becuase thousands of Sindhi's came to Gujarat as refugees and have build up business empires. Some of these families were given temporary homes but they progressed because of their skills and lived like a sugar in milk in society. Some of my schools friends parents were born in Karachi.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 21 Aug 2009 16:44

What logic defines that if we were not partitioned we would be Somalia? I can also casually throw in a statement which says if we were not partitioned we would be like US!!

A while back charts were posted on the strength of a united India w.r.t. to a broken one and the comparative weight when compared to other countries.

And no this is not for spinster and his spins

the problem with your spin JS ji is that some try and play it with the straight bat.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 21 Aug 2009 17:01

I said the situation would be similar to Somalia and not Somalia itself. It would not have been similar to US because, 1) India is not founded on the belief of American nation nor we won Independence by fighting with bullets and guns from British, 2) We were thousands of miles behind industrialized nations in terms of every indicator one can possibly think of except value of rupee, 3) Diversity of India is more than diversity of whole of Europe so it take centuries to carve a democratic nation out of it and it is similar to whole of Africa combined as one nation, 4) India as a whole has not produced 1/100th of geniuses produced by Americans, heck Africa has more noble laureates than India, 5) There are umpteen reasons why India would have been similar to Africa had it not been for partition than it would have been similar to USA.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 21 Aug 2009 17:06

Ok so we have a different history from US so we cant compare valid point, however you still think we would be like Somalia so clearly we were like Somalia before the partition for reasons of shared history etc?

Which country had 30% of world GDP unbroken till 200 years back? Somalia or India or US?

What exact indicators in socio economic survey say that before partition we were like Somalia if you look at factors X Y and Z, after partition we are not like Somalia since the factors are now Q V W?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Aug 2009 17:27

Friends,let's remember the "Great Indian Mutiny",or the "First War of Independence".The various rulers of (mainly N.India) India at that time,regardless of ethnic or religious background came together to fight perfidious Albion.That scared sh*tless the rulers of Blighty,who never forgot it and therefore when they had to depart saw to it that we were sundered through religion.But if the rulers at that time could come together to fight for freedom,we could've seen an undivided India instead.We now say that Partition was a blessing in disguise because of the dreadful state of Pak,where no Indian ,not even a sane Muslim would want to be.

Supposing however that India and Pak were at peace with each other instead of perpetual strife? SAARC was to have been the vehicle for sub-continental/S.Asian cooperation.It has naver taken off,but one day in the future,if Pak survives,it may yet be possible for an enlightened govt. of the day in Pak to bury the hatchet and Kalashnikov and a loose confederation of the states of the sub-continent work together just as the nations of Europe have achieved,were their fighting is about economics and not about land.That time may not come for a long time,especially as external forces have invaded the region for their own selfish interests.The US wabts to squat in Afghanistan so that it can control the region and detsabilise both Central Asia and Iran from the Af-Pak region.That is a goal that India must fight against and defeat,as if the US keeps squatting and shi**ing in our backyard,the stench and toxins emnataing from its "squat",will poison the air that we breathe and eventually destroy us.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 21 Aug 2009 17:30

Sanku wrote:Ok so we have a different history from US so we cant compare valid point, however you still think we would be like Somalia so clearly we were like Somalia before the partition for reasons of shared history etc?

Which country had 30% of world GDP unbroken till 200 years back? Somalia or India or US?

What exact indicators in socio economic survey say that before partition we were like Somalia if you look at factors X Y and Z, after partition we are not like Somalia since the factors are now Q V W?

Comparision with Somalia was a conditional statement of assumption, it does not constitute my strong belief as you present here. I dont believe those historical GDP figures and they dont mean anything in today's world. Nor do I believe that India would have produced Aeroplanes by producing our Indian Wright brothers. India embraced western education, thought process and general innovative ideology in last 60 years which has made us what we are today. I dont know about 1950 as I dont have the data but GDP per Capita of Somalia was higher than India as early as in 1970. So in that context we can compare.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 21 Aug 2009 17:42

ashish raval wrote:Comparision with Somalia was a conditional statement of assumption, it does not constitute my strong belief as you present here. I dont believe those historical GDP figures and they dont mean anything in today's world. Nor do I believe that India would have produced Aeroplanes by producing our Indian Wright brothers. India embraced western education, thought process and general innovative ideology in last 60 years which has made us what we are today. I dont know about 1950 as I dont have the data but GDP per Capita of Somalia was higher than India as early as in 1970. So in that context we can compare.

I see so you feel allright comparing India and US on a historical basis but not India and Somalia? One set of basis is right and the other is not? Interesting.

Let me remind you -- you made a rather far fetched claim that IF India was not partitioned it would be like Somalia? I again ask you, why?

Further, why did India not embrace " western education, thought process and general innovative ideology" when we were ruled by the westerns and could learn from them and we could do after they left?

These kind of irresponsible ill thought through statements which have no correlation between cause and effect do nothing more than score self goals. I hope you keep that in mind next time you feel a strong urge to justify your POV.