Strategic leadership for the future of India

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svinayak
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by svinayak »

sukhdeo wrote:

I have read that. Correct me if I am wrong, but isnt it heavily astrology based ? You may argue that astrology is also logical, but what about the rest of us who dont share your faith in astrology. Astrology based predictions also have inevitibility around them and minimize the role that humans would play in determining the outcome. What if you are wrong and astrological predictions dont come true ? Should we also not have some rational and scientific models other than astrology ?
This can be arrived using sociology studies and sociology mapping. Astrology is just one pointer just to get the period of change. Social analysis and social group analysis will give extensive information regarding change in the generational thinking and behaviour. Western sociologist and anthropologist have used this 100 years ago to change the east and the education system in the colonial countries to create westernized eastern races.
Indian colonial history for the past 200 years will give a good picture of the westernized Indian elite and their history.

When the British created the english universities in India in 1830s - the presidency colleges were created in Madras, Bombay and Culcutta. My father was a graduate of this college in the 50s and he and his generation held it in high esteem. New generation of Indians will not be looking at it that way. My generation looks at IIT/IIM as the role model.
Last edited by svinayak on 19 Aug 2009 23:49, edited 2 times in total.
ramana
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by ramana »

Can we have link to the Taxonomy of the Indian elite posted here? This will help clear up to whom the message is addressed.

RM got it very clearly!
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by sukhdeo »

John Snow wrote:BJP are always jokers will remain jokers, they are neither Mafia like congress nor nationalist to the core they pretend to be.

Bharatiya Jokers Party zindabad,

Billion people ruled by million mafia.
Jai Hind.
I second it. The BJP are wannabe mafias though. They have this great urge and aspiration to be like the Congress, only they cannot be, because the original is always greater than the imitator.

Billion people ruled by a million mafia is only possible when and if the ruled mostly aspire to be part of the mafia too, not overthrow it.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by sukhdeo »

Acharya wrote:
sukhdeo wrote:

I have read that. Correct me if I am wrong, but isnt it heavily astrology based ? You may argue that astrology is also logical, but what about the rest of us who dont share your faith in astrology. Astrology based predictions also have inevitibility around them and minimize the role that humans would play in determining the outcome. What if you are wrong and astrological predictions dont come true ? Should we also not have some rational and scientific models other than astrology ?
This can be arrived using sociology studies and sociology mapping. Astrology is just one pointer just to get the period of change. Social analysis and social group analysis will give extensive information regarding change in the generational thinking and behaviour. Western sociologist and anthropologist have used this 100 years ago to change the east and the education system in the colonial countries to create westernized eastern races.
Indian colonial history for the past 200 years will give a good picture of the westernized Indian elite and their history.

When the British created the english universities in India in 1830s - the presidency colleges were created in Madras, Bombay and Culcutta. My father was a graduate of this college and he and his generation held it in high esteem. New generation of Indians will not be looking at it that way. My generation looks at IIT/IIM as the role model.

Acharya,

I understand. Lets discuss and use sociology and other faculties to project our future and more importantly how to make changes to achieve desired future. Lets do it on this thread as opposed to only looking back.

I agree with you already and you dont have to refer me to Western faith in sociological studies to convince me of that.

I do disagree with you that holding IIT/IIM in awe is somehow a symbol of non-Westernized thinking. I think it is also a symbol of westernized thinking, only a symbol that vocational education in India is more glorified right now than humanities based education, which in my mind is a tragedy.
Last edited by sukhdeo on 19 Aug 2009 23:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Sanku »

John Snow wrote: they are neither Mafia like congress nor nationalist to the core they pretend to be..
There's no one nationalist to the core, well at least not enough anyway. We have to make do with the best of the worst till we have better.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by sukhdeo »

Sanku wrote:
John Snow wrote: they are neither Mafia like congress nor nationalist to the core they pretend to be..
There's no one nationalist to the core, well at least not enough anyway. We have to make do with the best of the worst till we have better.

How do you corelate the fact that there are no nationalists in a nation to Brihaspati's projection that India will be a super power by 2035 ? How can one be possible without the other ?
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by svinayak »

sukhdeo wrote:

I do disagree with you that holding IIT/IIM in awe is somehow a symbol of non-Westernized thinking. I think it is also a symbol of westernized thinking, only a symbol that vocational education in India is more glorified right now than humanities based education, which in my mind is a tragedy.
Yes. It is also created by westernized Indians such as Nehru etc.
Humanities based education has been hijacked in the 60s by a small groups inside India who work with western universities. RT etc have used western method and sociology to view Indian society and have changed the education system to a euro centric world view and history. Unless Bharatiyas take control and create a Indian text and Indian education this will continue for every generations.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by sukhdeo »

Acharya wrote:
sukhdeo wrote:

I do disagree with you that holding IIT/IIM in awe is somehow a symbol of non-Westernized thinking. I think it is also a symbol of westernized thinking, only a symbol that vocational education in India is more glorified right now than humanities based education, which in my mind is a tragedy.
Yes. It is also created by westernized Indians such as Nehru etc.
Humanities based education has been hijacked in the 60s by a small groups inside India who work with western universities. RT etc have used western method and sociology to view Indian society and have changed the education system to a euro centric world view and history. Unless Bharatiyas take control and create a Indian text and Indian education this will continue for every generations.

This, I agree with.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Sanku »

sukhdeo wrote:
Sanku wrote:
There's no one nationalist to the core, well at least not enough anyway. We have to make do with the best of the worst till we have better.

How do you corelate the fact that there are no nationalists in a nation to Brihaspati's projection that India will be a super power by 2035 ? How can one be possible without the other ?
That statement was only in the context of expressed political alignment right now.

It about 25 years from now to then. Brihaspati compares the cyclical histories to prior era and it is quite possible that potentials now will turn into a full fledged leader then.

Yet that has to be seen, no one claims 400% success guarantees.

But why do you ask me ? Ah yes perhaps because you have clearly not labeled me as astrology (since its not you who has labeled but others) since maths is not same as astrology to you.

--------------------

OT> Meanwhile why do I remember Somnath so much today? I wonder.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by nachiket »

Acharya wrote: Yes. It is also created by westernized Indians such as Nehru etc.
Humanities based education has been hijacked in the 60s by a small groups inside India who work with western universities. RT etc have used western method and sociology to view Indian society and have changed the education system to a euro centric world view and history. Unless Bharatiyas take control and create a Indian text and Indian education this will continue for every generations.
What are the changes that are needed in the Indian education system acc to you to make it more Indianized?
Our education system faces a lot of problems including rote based learning and lack of quality professors, but I don't think that's what you are talking about.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Sanku »

nachiket wrote:What are the changes that are needed in the Indian education system acc to you to make it more Indianized?
Our education system faces a lot of problems including rote based learning and lack of quality professors, but I don't think that's what you are talking about.
If I may
1) Fix the history curriculum
2) Fix the history curriculum
3) Fix the history curriculum

Of course now comes the part ---- its "saffron", die die....
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by svinayak »

nachiket wrote:
Acharya wrote: Yes. It is also created by westernized Indians such as Nehru etc.
Humanities based education has been hijacked in the 60s by a small groups inside India who work with western universities. RT etc have used western method and sociology to view Indian society and have changed the education system to a euro centric world view and history. Unless Bharatiyas take control and create a Indian text and Indian education this will continue for every generations.
What are the changes that are needed in the Indian education system acc to you to make it more Indianized?
Our education system faces a lot of problems including rote based learning and lack of quality professors, but I don't think that's what you are talking about.
Read the chapter on education here
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3195500/IRF-EDITED2006-Rev30
Book written Francis Gautier on Indian History quite different from Marxist Historians
http://www.scribd.com/doc/4269432/Rewri ... an-History
http://www.scribd.com/doc/17232823/Rewr ... -F-Gautier

http://www.scribd.com/doc/11609126/A-Fi ... ross-India
nachiket
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by nachiket »

Acharya wrote:
nachiket wrote:
What are the changes that are needed in the Indian education system acc to you to make it more Indianized?
Our education system faces a lot of problems including rote based learning and lack of quality professors, but I don't think that's what you are talking about.
Read the chapter on education here
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3195500/IRF-EDITED2006-Rev30
Book written Francis Gautier on Indian History quite different from Marxist Historians
http://www.scribd.com/doc/4269432/Rewri ... an-History
http://www.scribd.com/doc/17232823/Rewr ... -F-Gautier

http://www.scribd.com/doc/11609126/A-Fi ... ross-India
Will do. Thank you for the links.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by svinayak »

nachiket wrote:
Will do. Thank you for the links.
There are more. THis is just a beginning.
http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index ... topic=1313
http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8

This discussion on this topic is going on for the last 30 years.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by nachiket »

Sanku wrote:
nachiket wrote:What are the changes that are needed in the Indian education system acc to you to make it more Indianized?
Our education system faces a lot of problems including rote based learning and lack of quality professors, but I don't think that's what you are talking about.
If I may
1) Fix the history curriculum
2) Fix the history curriculum
3) Fix the history curriculum

Of course now comes the part ---- its "saffron", die die....
When I was in school in Mumbai, what I personally found appalling as far as the history curriculum is concerned was the total absence of Indian history after Independence except a single chapter on the independence struggle in Goa.. Absolutely no mention of the 65 and 71 wars, the emergency, khalistan movement, the IG assassination etc. Nothing. (This was the Maharashtra state SSC board. I am unaware of the situation in the ICSE and CBSE boards. I expect them to be better.)
They were running out of things to teach. The independence struggle was taught twice or thrice in different years, with the major stress ofcourse on MKG, Nehru, satyagraha yada yada. Being Maharashtra atleast Savarkar was portrayed in a favorable light thankfully. I do not know how Savarkar's role is mentioned in history textbooks in North and South India (with the p-secs and commies being opposed to him).
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by kittoo »

Guys I was reading a chat between a man posing as Jihad Aspirant and a man claiming to know Zakir Naik, here it is-

http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates/Zakirterrorism.htm

The guy clearly gives out phone numbers, names, places in Chennai and Mumbai where one could find terrorism facilitating groups. It says on the page that Chennai police was contacted but they did not respond. It was stupid of the police but can we attract some attention on that page and discussion and can make police do something?
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Masaru »

Acharya wrote:
nachiket wrote:
Will do. Thank you for the links.
There are more. THis is just a beginning.
http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index ... topic=1313
http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8

This discussion on this topic is going on for the last 30 years.
Wish more people appreciate the harm that the Macaulay putra/putri's version of history is doing to the concept of the Bharat. Just the other day had to spend 3 hours to convince a person that the Aryan invasion theory that he quotes as absolute truth (evidently to justify superiority over south Indians) could be part of a British agenda to divide the natives :evil:.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

sukhdeoji,

I assume that you have assumed that my projections were based on astrology. Although I have only recently started reading up on original texts of astrology, I had avoided them even when I read up Sanskrit texts (even though do contain important historical and astronomical clues). I began reading up these texts, because I came across the widespread use of "prophecy" in westerm media or western christian sources to mobilize the "faithful" or the vulnerable.

Having said that, for me a true scientist keeps his minds open. He only can say, "I cannot accept this statement or claim based on current knowledge and understanding. However, in the future, if evidence comes up to the contrary I will reconsider my current non-acceptance." Openness, and awarness that "testability" is limited by current knowledge should also be a part of a scientists attitude. It is not scientific to reject "astrology" "forever" by shutting the door on future repeated and continued testing.

For me, I will keep on testing it, and for me these are not things about "believing" or "not believing". I do not take steps based on astrological predictions, and I have never used it in my personal life. (It would have been "dangerous" for a lot of people, if I really believed in what was predicted about me as a child - :mrgreen: ) Neither would I use it for my country and nation. But at the same time I will continue testing it out. It is important even politically and sociologically, because unlike you, a lot of people do seem to be affected by astrological predictions.

Now to get back to the actual issue : this is exactly what I wrote :
I would expect a major transition by 2035-2037. A new system and regime that comes through this transition will finally see India to a muche increased level of self-sufficieny and dominance over global affairs. The period starting from 2005-2007 is very similar in intrinsic tendencies as to the period between 1915-17 to 1945-1947. I would think the main ideological drives have already started moving - although things are not clear or very visible. There will be increased public participation in public political activities starting from 2011-2012 although initial responses may not seem much, and which may not also take forms that the existing rashtryia setup expects. In 1921-22 a new form of political struggle started in India, that bypassed the ruling regime even if not being violent and quite within the law. But this was a period, when a larger section of public opinion began to veer round to the realization that the regime they had ruling over them was not really working in their interest. We should also keep in mind, that substantial portion of Indian elite, landed and business or industrial interests were even at the 1920's stage quite firmly aligned with the ruling British regime.

The driving forces of Indian politics will change over the next 10 years. But the real maniestation of this process will perhaps only be visible around 2020. The following 15-17 years to 2035-37 will be the most critical.
Where have I used any astrological terminology? My main observation starts from considering a sequence of years starting from 1947, going back 90 years at each step. The sequence that you get, is 1947, 1857, 1767, 1677, 1587, 1497, 1407, 1317, 1227, 1137, 1047, 957, 867, 777, 687, 597, 507, 417, 327, 237, 147, 57,33 BCE, 123, 213, 303, 393, 483, 573.

If you look carefully and compare with Indian historical timeline, you can see that these dates are very close to major changes in the nature, expanse, and character of a regime that covers large parts of the subcontinent. For me there could be several factors behind this. There could be climatic cycles that create social disruptions in a periodic and accumulative manner, by which older regimes with time -dependent ossification, becomes unable to face such conditions. This loosens the rashtryia power apparatus, and allows more appropriate for the circumstance, and up-to-date leadership to emerge. There is at least one astrophysical cycle roughly 90 years long (one of the shorter cycles of the sun), which could have some effect on the climate. Also 90 years is approximatley the activity time of three consecutive generations. It is possible that when overall economic and other conditions come to a head due to climatic factors, and the 90 year generation has more or less been replaced - changes take place rapidly. We can perhaps compare the situation to the process by which earthquakes happen from plate tectonics - the pressure gradually grows, but the rock crystals does not cross their threshold stress for snapping. They get deformed slightly but they do not collapse entirely. We can compare the rock crystals to the rashtryia machinery and associated social networks which resist change and reform as that might upset their privileges. However atime comes when external triggers and building up pressure suddenly crosses the threshold , and the crsystal snap. That is the older generation and their dependent components at control of rashtryia power snaps.

Now this does not, and should not be taken to mean, that no action is needed. But those who understand the process by which these society wide phenomena take place, can try to harness this potential. I would again bring in another physics example here which I have used before - that of simulated annealing. If we choose the optimizig path better, we may be able to reach a better optimum earlier, rather than the more "random" approach which may temporarily land us in a "worse" equilibrium.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

Abhi_G wrote
Brihaspati ji, I know there is an "if" at the start of the sentence but who do you think are these? Could you please clarify? Technically comparison to Germany is not correct - the shedding of communism and the shedding of wahabism, are they equivalent? JMTs.
Communism and Wahabism have a lot in common in the basic structure. But more importantly, with proper nursing, there are population segments in the south and far north who can be encouraged to come to the border. I have not really said that all the "Muslims" of TSP will drop their Wahabism and walk to the border to break it up. But they can be made to appear to do so. That should be good enough for us. :mrgreen:
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

Rahul M wrote
if I follow you correctly, the gist of the above is that a democratic regime is unlikely to spearhead or even enable significant changes in society.

but I was not talking of any immediate change, but regular governance over a period of time.
say we manage to complete the fundamental 'revolutions' in society by authoritarian means, what then ?
do you want the authoritarian set-up to continue ? or should a democratic set-up be brought back ? if the later, how would that seek to develop a system to push competent leaders to the top ?
No, I think the authoritarian setup has to be temporary. It is only there for a purpose and its role is time bound. Dictatorships will continue if the dictator allows the "party" and the coterie around him/her to push up the "dynasty". We see the phenomenon even within so-called democracies. Singapore, and our very own Desh. Dictatorship does not always have to be overt and declared. The key is that the apparatus of state power is dependent on the apparatus of personal power and not the reverse. This can happen in formal democracies, like JLN.

My experience of party politics says that every political party that outlives the purpose it was initially created for, ossifies into a structure that serves practically speaking as a training and filtering ground for the most corrupt and the most incapable.

Parties have a natural tendency to form and continue in all societies, and probably manifest a tendency in humans to form tight networks that can benefit the members over and above non-members. I do not know for sure how this tendency can be fought off entirely. But with the future growth of communication technology, it may be possible to do two things (a) automate increasing proportions of services and interactions of the citizen with the rashtra (b) force leaders to compete electorally for rashtryia helmsmanship as individuals and not as party leaders.

An interim step is perhaps to form new parties periodically - every 25 years perhaps. Such a new party will have to look for support from those left out by the existing dominant ones, and will find obvious recruits in those who were left out due to natural causes - a newer generation. This brings in a proportion of new thinking. Note that, even if the older party tries to bring in recruits from the current younger generation, it cannot use them properly as any trend that upsets the core power of older leadership or dynasty will ultimately not be allowed. Moreover if the party is dynastic without being able to formally legalize the dynastic succession, the dynasty will always be insecure about able succeeding generation potential leaders who can match dynastic successors. This will keep out the system reaching full optimum.
incidentally, how do you rate the initial years of US in the aspect of throwing up leaders through democracy ?
This is perhaps a very critical question. This was a young society. And a very peculiar society at that. This society consisted of the two extremes of European society - the marginals at two extremes of social "class". There was one component which had left European shores because of "ideas" and "ideology", and mostly having "radical" ideas from the well-to-do or elite end of the spectrum who were seen to be or made to be "incompatible" with then European society. The other was at the opposite lowest end of the spectrum, people who had "criminal" or "deviant" background and were unwanted by European society. This is a social group which has not yet formed into stable multigenerational and intergenerational networks of a longer established society. Such a group is more likely to come under the domination of determined minorities, especially minorities driven by ideological targets. I would see the early "American" proliferation of "uncorrupt/able" leadership actually lying in the situational opportunity of a "kneaded dough" which can be moulded into cakes or bscuits or bread according to the wish of the baker.

Soon enough, the society's plaster and cement set hard once the interests networks formed through generations and dependency patterns.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by svinayak »

ramana wrote:Can we have link to the Taxonomy of the Indian elite posted here? This will help clear up to whom the message is addressed.
http://www.slideshare.net/vepa/indian-elite-research
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by svinayak »

sukhdeo wrote:
If you analyze this, you will realize that at core, Indians have not changed. What separated Indians from the West historically is that Indians believed in fate. FATALISM. Everything is done to them, they have no control. It is futile to attempt to change things.
Historically you can only say as the period of colonization and Mughal rule. In that period it can be justified and explained.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by JwalaMukhi »

Sanku wrote:
nachiket wrote:What are the changes that are needed in the Indian education system acc to you to make it more Indianized?
Our education system faces a lot of problems including rote based learning and lack of quality professors, but I don't think that's what you are talking about.
If I may
1) Fix the history curriculum
2) Fix the history curriculum
3) Fix the history curriculum

Of course now comes the part ---- its "saffron", die die....
First take a substrate which was and to a large extent is "saffron". The argument from the elites who choose to think without acknowledging substrate is: Look colour (not all) is bad bad and bad. Look at "Green" and "pre-green" say "pink" for sake of argument, is very bad. "Pink" also claims: look at "red" it is also bad, but albiet better than "Green". Hence enlightened elite whose substrate was and is "pink" point out that diffused pink with ability to unleash "real pink" when necessary is good. Excepting saffron all colors including Pink (diffused also), green and red are in agreement, that saffron is the worst of all. So "Saffron" needs to be replaced by "white" which is very similar to "diffused pink". So the elites (DIE) say, yep safforn should be rolled back as saffronites can live with "white". Nothing wrong with white! goes the argument.
Pink, green and red are all in agreement white color is best for saffronities; because it is easier to paint either of those colors over white. Principally saffron needs to go, uber DIEs would like it to be not just white; but colorless. So lot of alchemists are trying their hand in removing the elusive "saffron" substrate.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by sukhdeo »

brihaspati wrote:sukhdeoji,

I assume that you have assumed that my projections were based on astrology...........

I didnt assume that. I understand you a little better than that. It was that Sanku fellow who misrepresented your position to be astrology based. By the way, I always keep my mind open. I am even open to the possibility of the existence of Pegasus, if there is any evidence in the future.

But I still have a few questions about your positions.

1) Even if these cycles you are talking about recur, should we just sit back and not do much in the interim periods and just allow hordes and barbarians to do whatever they like with us, safe in the knowledge that our great grandchild will have his day in the sun when the cycle recurs. Isnt is safer to cover all bases by working even harder and staying even more disciplined in between cycles so that we are not dependent on these cycles for our welfare like monsoon.

2) What if these cycles stop recurring ? Isnt it necessary to have a plan B.

3) Please answer my question about whether you believe there is such a thing as free will ? Do humans have freedom of action ? If yes, to what extent on both ?

4) Even if these cycles are not astrology, relying on these cycles is almost akin to believing in the super natural, bordering on superstition. If these are climate induced, the climate keeps changing and the cycles can change with them. Your bringing these cycles up, even if you have a serious theory, is really giving all the "do nothings" added ammunition to promote doing nothing. It also gives ammunition to those with power and money another weapom to keep us plebians down by demoralizing us into believing that short of these cycles there is nothing we can do to better ourselves. You are becoming an unwitting ally of the status quo oriented vested interests.

5) You can use your considerable intellect to come up with a thoughtful thesis on what humans, specifically Indian humans can do to better themselves, cycles or no cycles, the enemy imploding or not imploding, luck or no luck. What can we do, assuming the worst case scenarios to still come out ahead. It is perfectly acceptable that in the context of this worst case scenario, you can also have a couple of chapters on how if luck does smiles on us, or if we do get some help from the cycles, or weather or even the monsoon or if the enemy implodes, how we can be vigilant and take immediate and maximum advantage. But only having a strategy based on us getting some kind of advantage outside of our own actions is really in the Indian context like providing more alcohol to the alcoholic. As it is Indians tend to wishful think more than others, you are only feeding them more hope for something happening without them making any effort. We an continue with all our bad habits (which exist, no matter how much people shout these dont actually exist, only in the imagination of the Western psyops experts who are brain washing us), we can squabble amongst ourselves, we can find all kinds of arguments for no meaningfully reorganizing our society to be more just and efficient and still, the cycles will bail us out. PLEASE EMPHASIZE CAUSE AND EFFECT, meaning, WORK HARD, WORK TOGETHER AS A TEAM, WORK SMART, SHOW COURAGE, equates, PROSPERITY, DIGNITY and TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY. Without hard work etc, no cycles will save us, even if they are as real as you and me. Trust me, hard work, working together, working smart, being courageous, honesty etc are good qualities to practice, cycles or no cycles. These will not disrupt the cycles negatively, if they actually do recur. You would still be able to have your cycles. Its not an either or situation, certainly not a zero sum game.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by SwamyG »

Acharya wrote:
sunnyP wrote:What is the end game Jaswant Singh has in sight?

Initially I thought it was simply book sales and money but then he's already a reasonably wealthy man so is JS making his move to lead the Bharatiya Jinnah Party post Advani?
End game take 20 years, 50 years or 100 years. Unless you understand the big picture you get it wrong.
This is not about political party here.
Can you elaborate? TIA.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by svinayak »

SwamyG wrote:
End game take 20 years, 50 years or 100 years. Unless you understand the big picture you get it wrong.
This is not about political party here.
Can you elaborate? TIA.
I am talking about social engineering.
A country whose population growing from 150m to 300m and still not trading with another neighboring country of 1.2B and growing is odd. THis will change. THis change will occur over a period of 20-60 years.
Pakistan changed itself into a rapid Islamized state from 1971 to 2001 just to save itself and also to protect itself from outside (?Indian) influence. But it cannot stop the flow of history which will go on for 100-200 years.

Pakistan wants to control the flow of history. The secret is that - Pakis wish the flow of history must be an islamic one
Last edited by svinayak on 20 Aug 2009 11:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Sanku »

sukhdeo wrote:
brihaspati wrote:sukhdeoji,

I assume that you have assumed that my projections were based on astrology...........

I didnt assume that. I understand you a little better than that. It was that Sanku fellow who misrepresented your position to be astrology based.
Sukhdeo, I expect one of three things
1) An unqualified apology for misrepresenting something that you do not have the werewithal to understand
2) A quote from me showing how I have said it was astrology based (in fact I clearly said the opposite)
3) A quick entry to the "main bhee RM" camp.

You can choose.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Sanku »

nachiket wrote: I do not know how Savarkar's role is mentioned in history textbooks in North and South India (with the p-secs and commies being opposed to him).
Savarkar is almost a persona non grata in books in the North (I do not know about south) and in Central orgs, NCERT books give him about 5 secs mention.

In fact the reason that Savarkar is still taught about in Maharashtra is a reason that Maha is far less Mackualized as compared to the Gangetic belt.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Rahul Mehta »

sukhdeo wrote:I agree with Rahul Mehta to an extent, {thanks :) }that there seems to be too much emphasis on the past while discussing the strategic leadership of the "future". There can be no doubt that those who dont know history are doomed to repeat it. It is equally true that knowledge of "true" or "correct" history is imperative, which requires a lot of research and straying away from the mainstream, as history is written by winners.

But the future is not simply a repeat of history either. Human beings have free will. They consciously or sub-consciously change things to create a future, distinct from the past, for better or for worst. Sometimes, history is repeated, but not always. This should seem like a motherhood and apple pie statement that no one should have any disagreement with.

Why then do we choose to exclusively focus on the past ? What about the future ? Can we discuss some models which could forecast where India could be a year from now, two years from now, 5 years from now, 10 years from now and 20 years from now and even 30 years from now, if India stays on the same trajectory in all ways (politically, economically, defence wise), and our neighbors and the world stays on the same trajectory ? How would the outcome change, if any or all of those trajectories change ? What kind of changes would India and Indians have to make to their trajectory to produce at least satisfactory outcomes and how should we go about making those changes ? Depending on what changes and trajectory we want to take in the future, will then spawn a discussion of suitable leadership that will be ideal to lead us in making those changes.

Brihispati has talked about his predictions for 2025 and 2035, but are they mere astrological predictions or are they based on some logical and realistic model which connects our current trajectory to those outcomes or is based on a road map from our current trajectory to those outcomes ? Does he feel that his outcomes are inevitable or are there events, strategies and people that can change the outcomes ? I for one, for instance, cannot forsee India surviving by 2035 if we stay on the current trajectory or at least much weakened even compared to now, leave aside going on an upward trend. Brihispati seems to think that a mere repeat of historical cycle will make it "time" for India to ascend again by 2035, where people around the world, nations around the world and their conscious strategies will have no or minimal role in determining the outcome. In that scheme of things, people are just like rocks or animals, having practically no pro-active role to play and therefore, a classic argument for doing nothing, attempting to change nothing. In such a scenario, its futile to discuss the leadership of the future or the future itself, as we are just governed by these historical time cycles and we cant change them. This is a classic argument for doing nothing, which then brings out all the pseudo Chanakya followers out of the woodwork promoting doing nothing, even though I realize thats not what Brihispati intends.

So, while a discussion of the future requires a very healthy dose of the past (as a student of history, I hate to denigrate the value of it), but it cannot mean being totally stuck in the past to the exclusion of any discussion about how we get from here to the future. A discussion about the future without discussing the future will not be a discussion of the future but a discussion of the past, and there is a difference, unless you believe that the past will come around back in the future in historical cycles, therefore, the past is the future.

For all the Rahul Mehta haters out there, I would say this. With all his quirks, I like him, because Rahul Mehta is always looking to the future. He is constantly talking about everyday problems plaguing India. How we resolve these everyday problems in my view will determine a lot of our future. {thanks :) } You may agree with him on whether the problems he brings up are the ones that should be high up in priority or not, but I agree with his general thrust and he brings a refreshing change by discussing real, ground level problems and focussing on the future and solutions, not mere problems. He also understands that solving these problems are inevitably tied to our future. Most of the rest of us are well, "do nothing" promoting Chanakyans or mere freelance interpreters of history and past events, recent or distant.

Sorry, Mehta, I may have put you on a steeper downward trajectory to be banned from this forum, as anyone who seems to develop any semblence of a following on this forum, other than the "brahmins of this forum" inevitably gets.
Thanks :) , and AWMTA :)

-----

Ramana,

I was banned once, about 2.5 years ago. That was because I made 3-5 attempts to discuss Christianists tendencies of US elitemen and how it can impact and rest of the world even after admins told me that this topic was not kosher at that time. The thread I started was "Christianists menace in India and World" and that was deleted by admin. I should have stopped, by I stealthily inserted posts on that topic in other threads. Admins deleted those posts. So one member started a fist fist with admins on why this topic is banned. The debate between that member and admin got so ugly that admin decided to ban me, as my posts were the reason why the ugly debate started.

Now, I am NOT complaining. IMO, I should have stopped raising that topic and tried again after 2-3 weeks rather than same day. And such things happen, I take ALL non-violent things it very lightly.

--------

Sanku,

Your RM-phobia is now giving me lots of entertainment. :rotfl: . Keep it up. :rotfl:
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Rahul Mehta »

Even if we accept the claim that History is important to solve problems of present, that would not mean that ALL topics in history and all events in history are worth spending time on. Many things in history "die out" i.e. those events leave no traces on present.

If one makes a list of 10-15 TOPMOST problems India is facing, from PoV of 71 cr adult commons, they would be : poverty (10 synonyms exists for this word) , Indian Military-Industrial complex is weakening, corruption in courts, corruption in police, corruption in neta/babu, mess in primary eudcation, mess in colleges and so forth. The order may differ in someone else's list but that this would be pretty much the list.

Consider the issue of Jinha and events around partition. The topic has been beaten to the extent that forget a dead horse, even if a steel block is kicked so many times, it would become pulp. And this Jinha and related issue has NO bearing on how we can solve our top 10-15 problems.

Now JS could written a book on solutions he proposes to any of the top 15 problems of India. But he chooses to ignore ALL problems such as courts, police, primary education and decides to beat a dead horse - Jinha and Partition related events. Is this why we commons made him MP? That instead of drafting laws to improve India, he would write essays in History to show all his gyaan? Cant he spend time to write books describing solutions to problems such as poverty, weakening Military, corruption in police/courts etc?

Call it poetic (in)justice or whatever, but his act of wasting time on such issues and not attending important problem was a "crime" by itself.

Too bad, we dont hold him for this crime, and instead talk about contents for the book. Its time we ask leaders to STOP showing off they gyaan and confine to drafting LAWS to reduce problems of India. That way, I really welcome Jayaprakash Narayan, President Loksatta and also MLA in AP. At least he drafted a law and proposed it in AP Assembly. I hate the text of the draft he wrote, but better than JS like neta who have all the time to show gyaan and cant find time to fix laws of India.

------

Btw, the rumor mill say me LKA/Rajnath got some 10000+ emails, phones, SMS etc from angry BJP workers asking that JS be expelled. If that is the case, I thank BJP workers that they have decided to take things in their own hand and not wait for neta to act. Good decision or bad, it is good that workers are now making demands for leaders and not waiting for neta to decide.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

sukhdeo wrote
1) Even if these cycles you are talking about recur, should we just sit back and not do much in the interim periods and just allow hordes and barbarians to do whatever they like with us, safe in the knowledge that our great grandchild will have his day in the sun when the cycle recurs. Isnt is safer to cover all bases by working even harder and staying even more disciplined in between cycles so that we are not dependent on these cycles for our welfare like monsoon.

2) What if these cycles stop recurring ? Isnt it necessary to have a plan B.
No one allows hordes or barbarians to do as they please just because of fatalism, if they have power to resist those barbarians. Even the Aztecs, who are supposed to have been steeped in fatalism, did not stop in their retaliation attempt in the second phase against the Europeans. Fatalism works more as a rationalization post factum, an excuse to avoid the psychological impact of defeat. The last part of this segment is similar to a recurring theme in your post, so I will answer it together at the end.
3) Please answer my question about whether you believe there is such a thing as free will ? Do humans have freedom of action ? If yes, to what extent on both ?
I do believe in "free will" and "freedom of action". Problem is not about belief or non-belief. Problem comes when you consider the impact or effectiveness of "free will" and "freedom of action". Unless a critical mass of individuals all apply "free will" and "freedom of action" geared and aligned to the achievement of a single purpose, the "free will" and "freedom of action" has no impact in the rashtryia context. Now, as you probably immediately note, this convergence and alignment of millions of "free will" into a single purpose does imply "submergence" of free will into a larger "group will". The effectiveness is therefore mediated and modified by external factors and cumulative knowledge, technology, and historical social experience of the society concerned.
4) Even if these cycles are not astrology, relying on these cycles is almost akin to believing in the super natural, bordering on superstition. If these are climate induced, the climate keeps changing and the cycles can change with them. Your bringing these cycles up, even if you have a serious theory, is really giving all the "do nothings" added ammunition to promote doing nothing. It also gives ammunition to those with power and money another weapom to keep us plebians down by demoralizing us into believing that short of these cycles there is nothing we can do to better ourselves. You are becoming an unwitting ally of the status quo oriented vested interests.
Those who are "do nothings" will remain "do nothings", excuse or no excuse. I do not rely on climate or generational cycles alone. But I think such tendencies can be used by a determined "minority" having a vision. Belief in "fate" and "destiny" can b e a double edged sword. People who believe that they have a destiny of bringing in monumental changes can actually be enthused to become the "determined minority". My raising the issue was not aimed at "do nothings". Rather towards the potential "doers".
5) You can use your considerable intellect to come up with a thoughtful thesis on what humans, specifically Indian humans can do to better themselves, cycles or no cycles, the enemy imploding or not imploding, luck or no luck. What can we do, assuming the worst case scenarios to still come out ahead. It is perfectly acceptable that in the context of this worst case scenario, you can also have a couple of chapters on how if luck does smiles on us, or if we do get some help from the cycles, or weather or even the monsoon or if the enemy implodes, how we can be vigilant and take immediate and maximum advantage. But only having a strategy based on us getting some kind of advantage outside of our own actions is really in the Indian context like providing more alcohol to the alcoholic. As it is Indians tend to wishful think more than others, you are only feeding them more hope for something happening without them making any effort. We an continue with all our bad habits (which exist, no matter how much people shout these dont actually exist, only in the imagination of the Western psyops experts who are brain washing us), we can squabble amongst ourselves, we can find all kinds of arguments for no meaningfully reorganizing our society to be more just and efficient and still, the cycles will bail us out. PLEASE EMPHASIZE CAUSE AND EFFECT, meaning, WORK HARD, WORK TOGETHER AS A TEAM, WORK SMART, SHOW COURAGE, equates, PROSPERITY, DIGNITY and TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY. Without hard work etc, no cycles will save us, even if they are as real as you and me. Trust me, hard work, working together, working smart, being courageous, honesty etc are good qualities to practice, cycles or no cycles. These will not disrupt the cycles negatively, if they actually do recur. You would still be able to have your cycles. Its not an either or situation, certainly not a zero sum game.
Even among the Indians you lambast for fatalism, there has been a long standing debate about the relative importance of "fate/destiny" and "purushakaar". Some of the astrology texts that I have started reading in Sanskrit, categorically state that "karma" and purushakaar can modify a lot of what has been predestined.

I have already been asked by RamaYji for the "method". What you are asking for is a similar thing. I have tried from the age of 8 to defy fate and pre-determinism. I have tried to change a lot of things out of "free will". This has led to a very colourful life experience. I have travelled over half the subcontinent, mixed with tribals and forest dwellers, gone into remote and difficult terrain, gone into student and youth and party politics, debated and fought and written in the corridors of political decision making. My realization is more complex than a simple "destiny" and "free will" tussle. The simple analogy could be the attempt to build a house. You either have a good readymade source of bricks and building material produced by others before, or "bought" from others. Only if this material is good, you can build a good house with your skill. If you do not have this material or it is not of sufficient good quality and strength, however you try with your free will - skill - determination, the building will either be too weak or will break apart even before it is completed. The other thing is to realize which existing material is not good enough, and build such material on site yourself according to your own specifications and quality control.

But then the problematic part still remains. Are you going to build the house entirely on your own? Or do you need other builders with you? If you do, then do you allow the other builders to apply their own sweet free will and build as they wish on the house you planned? Or do you need coordination and the falling in line of all builders to a grand master-plan? This is the reason, organizations, and parties form, to bring in convergence of tactics and methods and impose a single will on the multitudes of "free wills".

My thoughts in concrete terms are perhaps not yet expressible in acceptable forms. At this stage they can be misinterpreted. I have to work on making them presentable in a form acceptable within dominant attitudes as they exist today. Please be patient with me! :)
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by sukhdeo »

Brihispati,

Fair enough. There is some stuff that I dont agree with fully, but the overall response is reasonable.

I only ask that whatever hypthesis or thesis you develop, you put enough safeguards in there to 1) not encourage "do nothingism", 2) give a weapon to those who want to keep the masses down and demoralized to a point where they dont question the powers that be and stay down and 3) give a weapon to people who want to maintain status quo.

I know it is not your intent to embolden the powers that be, but I think of them as the main problem and far more problematic than you. Regardless, we both agree that the do nothings are a problem and it should not be too difficult for you to build in those safeguards in any hypothesis that you develop. Just a suggestion, its upto you to follow through, or not.

I can understand your need to try and understand the "master plan" and try to fit your objectives and strategies within it, so that you are not fighting against the current, so to speak, but use the natural currents to further your fight. I, however, come from a more agnostic standpoint, where I like to develop my strategy using a worst case scenario, where if I am not able to understand the masterplan or I misunderstand the masterplan, I still can come out ahead. If on the other had, I am lucky and am able to comprehend even a small bit of the masterplan, my strategy ought to be able to take full advantage of it. I say, I come from an agnostic point of view, because I dont believe there is any intelligence up there which is consciously devising the master plan and constantly updating it. If there is a higher power, my conception of it is closer to Spinoza's where really this higher power is just rules of nature and laws of physics (admittedly a lot of which we still dont fully understand and it is a work in progress). But where I may differ from you a little bit on is that I have an undying belief in "cause and effect", which if you come from a less agnostic point of view, you may have a slightly or greatly less belief in and as you said yourself, the currents of the master plan may be so strong that unless all humans put in a collective effort, cause and effect doesnt work so well.

Oh, and I also believe very strongly in a strategy that, if it doesnt produce immediate and big results, at least demonstrates consistent incremental trend upwards. I dont believe in a consistent downtrend, suddenly reversing itself and in a short period of time miraculously producing massively positive results. Therefore, my recurring theme in all my posts is that if we all agree (we almost all do) that the current leadership and population of India is a "do nothing" bunch and the trend towards "do nothingism" is strong (downward), how can we make a big leap and predict that in two decades or three decades some cycles will magically reverse the trend for us, without us even trying to the reverse the trend ourselves. I would be far more comfortable with a scenario that puts us on an upward trajectory now, even a gentle slope up would be fine, or even a straight line (as opposed to a downward trendline) would be fine, but it streches my credulity, when you say that you see a consistent downward trend for the next decade or two, which then will very quickly reverse itself without our people making much of an effort. I know, you are saying that the cycle will by itself not do anything, the cycle will give birth to a population of "do somethings" who will have the right mindset etc, but really, how can the children and grandchildren of such flawed populous all of a sudden produce such glorious progeny ?
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

sukhdeoji,
by the "master plan" I did not mean the Buddhist "maha dhamma". I said, "If you do, then do you allow the other builders to apply their own sweet free will and build as they wish on the house you planned? Or do you need coordination and the falling in line of all builders to a grand master-plan? This is the reason, organizations, and parties form, to bring in convergence of tactics and methods and impose a single will on the multitudes of "free wills"." Here clearly the master-plan is not supra-human, it is the plan of the human "builder". It is we who decide what we want our future to be - regardless of what it will actually turn out to be. Those who say they are "agnostic" can think of it as manifestation of human will (agnostics are supposed to not want to "know" about the existence of "God" raher than actually disbelieve in a super-will!) and the theists can think of it as manifestation of divine "will" within the humans. Given enough incentives, everyone will find justifications.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by sukhdeo »

brihaspati wrote:sukhdeoji,
by the "master plan" I did not mean the Buddhist "maha dhamma". I said, "If you do, then do you allow the other builders to apply their own sweet free will and build as they wish on the house you planned? Or do you need coordination and the falling in line of all builders to a grand master-plan? This is the reason, organizations, and parties form, to bring in convergence of tactics and methods and impose a single will on the multitudes of "free wills"." Here clearly the master-plan is not supra-human, it is the plan of the human "builder". It is we who decide what we want our future to be - regardless of what it will actually turn out to be. Those who say they are "agnostic" can think of it as manifestation of human will (agnostics are supposed to not want to "know" about the existence of "God" raher than actually disbelieve in a super-will!) and the theists can think of it as manifestation of divine "will" within the humans. Given enough incentives, everyone will find justifications.

If the masterplan is man made, then in case of India, which is extremely fractured and argumentative, it is wise to start off with just a bare minimum master plan which then can be incrementally built on, a kind of a common minimum program. I suggest the following three planks, but Indians being Indians will probably not even form a consensus around these.

1. Work to produce a strong economy (with much stronger foundations than what exists today)

2. Work to maintain or enhance our territorial integrity

3. Accord each citizen a chance to live in dignity and without being trampled on, everyday

I would just like to elaborate a little on what I mean by a strong economy. I believe our economy today is very precarious because it is not sitting on a strong foundation of 1) free competetion, 2) equality of opportunity(only the big business houses are propering in a lopsided way, the rest are all employees, even if they are highly paid), 3) strong property rights, 4) effective legal system to protect people's rights(this is where I think Rahul Mehta is trying to bring focus and this is very related to having a good economy), 5) strong infra-structure, 6) effective tax policies, 7) less internal strife so a good mercantile climate prevails and 8) minimizing corruption tax

Now Brihispati, if we agree to the above minimalist masterplan, lets come up with a strategy to accomplish this.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Sanku »

sukhdeo wrote:Now Brihispati, if we agree to the above minimalist masterplan, lets come up with a strategy to accomplish this.
Sukhdeo the fundamental aspect of a master plan is a vision. What do you want to be and what are your values.

How is the later part -- your post is only on how, as such any such plan which is how without why and what is doomed to failure.

The first step is the vision -- what is our vision?

--------------

There are also many flaws in hows that you propose too
for example -- you say a strong economy and personal rights are linked. Hardly, look at China, look at Imperial Britian and there are many other examples. So prima facie the linkage is flawed.

Also you claim that we have a precarious economy based on some metrics -- first and foremost it is not clear who decides these metrics for a precarious economy or not, can you refer us to some scholary works so we dont have to take your word for it?

Secondly while claiming that there are metrics which are not up to the mark, can you be so kind as to put some numbers around them? For example on what basis is the equality of opportunity less than good? How is it measured? What are some other systems where it is robust and not lopsided?

So as the moment, frankly your post sounds like a collection of your pet peeves of what you think is wrong with India, which is all very fine since you are entitled to whatever PoV you want, however I dont see how this translates into the blue print for any sort of master plan (even assuming there is a vision you have not shared)
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Sanku »

Sanku wrote:
sukhdeo wrote:
I didnt assume that. I understand you a little better than that. It was that Sanku fellow who misrepresented your position to be astrology based.
Sukhdeo, I expect one of three things
1) An unqualified apology for misrepresenting something that you do not have the werewithal to understand
2) A quote from me showing how I have said it was astrology based (in fact I clearly said the opposite)
3) A quick entry to the "main bhee RM" camp.

You can choose.
I was hoping you will clarify why you were representing my position as 180 degrees of what I said, no matter.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by ramana »

RM, I stand corrected. About your being banned. Anyway looks like there were grounds for it and you are wiser!
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by sukhdeo »

ramana wrote:RM, I stand corrected. About your being banned. Anyway looks like there were grounds for it and you are wiser!
of course. Has anyone ever been banned without proper grounds, by anybody ever in the world ?
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by ramana »

Has anyone read Jaswant Singh's latest book and can comment on the facts he lays out?
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

X-posting from "expulsion" thread :

Sardar Patel had many positives. But I would see several fatal flaws. First he allowed MKG to overrule "democratic" process to push him out in favour of JLN. This means, for him, the "party" and the mass behind it, was less of a priority than the individual MKG. Second, he declares that if the Partition was not accepted, "India" would have disntegrated. What exactly was this India for him then - obviously the parts that fell into Pakistan did not belong to this India of Sardar! Third he could not prevent JLN from the blunders of foreign policy over J&K. There are other issues about his role in the surrender of the naval ratings of the naval uprising, but that perhaps is a different issue.

I find his deference to individuals over the "nation" problematic.

I have always wondered, if the fundamental problem in Sardar rested on a concept of India that comprised only a contiguous territorial hold based around the central India and elongated north and south from North Kashmir to Kanyakumari. The "wings" across Indus Valley and the Gangetic delta perhaps did not belong in his India. Had it belonged, he just might have shown more of his "iron" in taking back these areas. But even then he has done much more to his "India" than JLN did even for this "India".

But what is more interesting is that the BJP seems to be bending over backwards to appropriate the icons of Congressite claim to sole legacy of the freedom movement. It has already taken MKG, now claimed Sardar. The reaction shown in expulsion of JS unfortunately looks like the old tactic of rhetoric hiding real motivations of power and personal dislikes - I am so familiar with. All Indian parties share this characteristic - and it appears more intense as the ideological posturing of the party increases. Here the current Rajnathic BJP and the Karatist CPI(M) show uncanny similarities. They blast intra-party opposition by pre-emptive strikes of outright expulsion. In fact the BJP has practised in case of JS, what the CPI(M) party constitution opnely declares as its right - even in case a member submits a resignation, the party can simply refuse to accept the resignation and instead expel that member outright.

The consequence is not going to be outwardly that severe. There will not be a huge outpouring of support fro JS from within the political organization of the BJP. This is seen as crisis moment for the party - and the tendency of such parties in thsi scenario is to thicken up and stick together. They need someone as a whipping boy - which is a good way of venting steam of frustration and dissent, and then after politically killing the victim, blame all the problems on the victim. This is like a scene in Schindler's List - where a boy in the conc camp points to a just shot inmate as the one who stole the chicken, and saves the remainder.

JS is agewise too advanced for external and internal forces to invest in him as a viable focus of reform or breaking up BJP. His expulsion does not send a very positive signal to those among the armed forces who have to keep their nationalistic thoughts to themselves.

If I were in place of Rajnath and inc, I would have left JS in a limbo. He could be milked for maximum political mileage without the BJP core being at all implicated and still retaining the full freedom to walk away in case disaster brewed from JS's claims. Of course, they are in a hurry now to counter SG, and they may even be toying with the idea of Sushmaji at the top or parliamentary top or at least a touted successor to LKA. But she is no match for SG's manipulative capabilities. She is much more open, and emotional, who comes across as sincere but volatile - not the female Krishna we need.

If RSS really wants its ideological targets to be achieved, and through the BJP, then it will be like trying to attach two bulls in opposite directions to the same cart. The electoral party cannot be tagged to pure ideology for a long time. Then it has to be made into a revolutionary party that achieves its targets over a short period of time. Over the longer run, they should leave the BJP to work out parliamentary and electoral paths, but allow a relatively autonomous third entity in the form of a mass movement and organization that is not seen (and genuinely through independent decision making capabilities) as a mere adjunct of the RSS or the BJP. They should not try to impose direct personnel control over the third entity but see to it that ideological convergence remains.

Otherwise the current antics will be seen in public as so much brute force method by the RSS to "control" the BJP. This is highly damaging for electoral purposes. Ideological control over "affiliate" organizations can be maintained in much more subtle ways. The JS case was not a subtle approach. It is tactically necessary to keep many different shops and outlets open, where ideological hardlining is not a necessary qualification for membership.

But who am I to advise! :mrgreen:
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