What is the effect of Jaswant Singh being expelled

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 21 Aug 2009 17:45

ashish raval wrote:
JS and other feudal lords have been cutdown big time by SVP in land reforms. They lost hundreds of acres of land and his dislike of SVP can be easily justified.

No comment on other parts of the post. The above however should be looked into closely. Anyone, who has followed JS and has read his previous book, should recognize this latent pain.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Aug 2009 18:00

John Snow wrote:
Try philosophy when reasoning fails
Spinster

**
ok Rahul ji I dont want to puzzle you for long.

Where does bengal come into the picture
.............

snow sahab, you don't need to take every response literally do you ?

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 21 Aug 2009 18:07

Sanku wrote: I see so you feel allright comparing India and US on a historical basis but not India and Somalia? One set of basis is right and the other is not? Interesting.

Let me remind you -- you made a rather far fetched claim that IF India was not partitioned it would be like Somalia? I again ask you, why?

Further, why did India not embrace " western education, thought process and general innovative ideology" when we were ruled by the westerns and could learn from them and we could do after they left?

These kind of irresponsible ill thought through statements which have no correlation between cause and effect do nothing more than score self goals. I hope you keep that in mind next time you feel a strong urge to justify your POV.

What do you mean by one set of historical context ! I am telling you India was similar to Somalia in last 100-150 years atleast during colonial times except few pockets. I also told you that GDP of India was even lower than Somalia as early as 1970. Could you not understand that India took different turn after 1950's that made us what we are today ? This is more than enough reasons to "assume" and "not claim (as you believe)" that we would have been in similar state as Africans.
India did not embrace western education because Indians were not allowed to attend british schools, british universities or be part of british/west educational elite except one's forefathers were born in royal elite or were born with silver spoons which unfortunately 999/1000 Indians were not. So, it took time for us to pass on the knowledge. Why were we able to learn it after the british left is we started that process even before they left. There was competition among the Western countries to industrialize their colonies just to improve the status of their kingdoms in world which was true for dutch, french, spanish, portugese etc. So Indians did benefitted from it. Some visionary rulers who were western educated wanted to bring change to India and hence started technical and science institutes etc. Moreover, we could learn faster because of so many innovations made world an easily accessible places which would have taken months for information to travel. These are reasons which I believe cumulatively led India to where it is today. And if it was not partition we would have been still fighting with each other for everything and definately not inbetter state than we are today.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 21 Aug 2009 18:12

"Partition was inevitable" is the lamest of excuses I have ever heard from anyone. Those who wanted Partition, or thought it would help their personal ambitions justified it as "inevitable".

Look at the statement itself - by making it "inevitable", and act of fate, they deny any human hands in its formation. Why did they have to do this and not even directly blame Jinnah and the ML as the prime responsible? Because then that would raise the question, as to why the Congress leadership , with a much larger mass base behind it, was not strong enough to stop an "erroneous" minority from hijacking the national agenda.

What stopped the Congress, and MKG in particular, with his penchant for calling mass movements - and getting positive response also most of the times, to give a call to the masses for preventing Partition, and keeping India united? To expose and isolate the so-called small minority of "deviants"?

What prevented the Congress from ordering the then Indian Army to physically quell the ML activists and militants in the preparatory stages for "Direct Action"? If the excuse is that the army was still controlled by the British, then do they admit that the British were unrealiable and that the British wanted and contributed to Partition? Could the Congress give a call to the Indian part of the Army to transfer loyalty to a provisional Indian government and take orders from the Indian gov? If the excuse is that the army remained loyal to the British and might not have rebelled - then why did not the Congress make alternative arrangements for necessary coercive power? After all they are supposed to be statesmen - with ability to look into look into the future and prepare for eventualities? If the British Indian Army was not reliable as far as nationalism is considered, why did the Congress leadership collaborate in the British destruction of all indigenous militancy including "nationalist" anti-British elements within the Army?

Over and above, if they did not want to take the military route, why did not they adopt the much more powerful mass movement approach?

Frankly, all those who are in love with the "partition was inevitable" line - may I request you to think again? Can you please consider the hypothesis, that this Congress leadership was showing all the symptoms of a total lack of confidence in anything Indian? They were nervous of the Indian masses, they were nervous of the nationalist sections of the army, they were nervous of all alternative claimants for leadership, they were nervous of the power of Muslim League, they were even nervous of the grassroots Congress workers (since the grassroots preferred leadership choices had to be bypassed within the coterie)? So they turned and relied entirely only on the only source of power they could rely on - the British admin under Mountbatten?

This was a leadership with no clue as to how to deal with the challenges - for they had risen to power primarily piggy-back on popular discontent and backdoor manipulations and intrgue for party posts. They neither had the vision nor the capacity for statesmanship that would have taught them to put the nation before personal ambitions and personal affiliations to regions, ethnicities and communities. They were vicious in liquidating their indigenous political opponents and did not have the personal faculties to forge unity with a competitor and turn a competitor into a colleague to achive common purposes. Their narrowness of affiliations to regions and regional and faith networks shows up in how they reacted to the Plan of the Partition.

Yes, all of them, all three of the triumvirate show their limitations in what they considered the essential piece of India that they identified with and they were keen to protect. In their India, Punjab, Sindh, NWFP, Bengal did not belong. Kashmir was however there! Do not quote the legalese pretenses! Arguments for Hyderabad were not the same as given for Srinagar. No, it is quite clear, that in their India, the Indus Valley and the Bengal delta did not belong. Here their personal regional affiliations to the centre, north and west of current India shows through. Hyderabad was taken over simply not to have an "enemy" base "within". I would even find it worth investigating, whether the fact that JLN was not seen to have that much love showered on him in Punjab and Bengal, the fact that most inveterate noncompromisers with the British came from these two provinces, and some of the toughest challenges to personal power, all were apparent before the Partition - a partition that would split the populations of these provinces, rendering them politically weakened in a future India and unable to challenge JLN's personal authority.

Incidentally, these were also exactly the provinces which had thrown up intrguing possibilities of Hindu-Muslim collaboration with moderates and leftists within the Islamic block - at a time when JLN was intransigent in coming to any understanding with the ML for power sharing and collaboration in the upper Gangetic belt.

We should acknowledge both the contribution as well as damages done by a leader. We should thank them for the former, and be unflinching in deriding the latter. We should thank Sardar for at least fighting solidly to have the elongated core of India as a continguous whole - even if his India was narrower in vision than what we would desire. But at the same time we must note, what it was in his capacity to do, but he did not.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 21 Aug 2009 18:40

shiv wrote:
The Punjabi refugees got compensation and each one claimed that they had land as big as west Pakistan and we Bengalees were under Evacuee Properties Act?
I would like to hear/read more information about this. Any links?

I gave them.

Sad that you did not read them and went off into the blue!

sukhdeo · Post by **sukhdeo** » 21 Aug 2009 18:42

RayC wrote:[quote="RayC]

True.

Sadly I am an Indian who does not urinate on the neighbour's doorstep. Thus, I am not an Indian, right? Is urinating in public a symbol of Indian-ism?

I am 'western' educated, born in a inter caste family, and in a family with international mix including blacks, Jews etc, if it does not hurt you sensibilities, Oriental and Occidentals and with a diverse religious mix. In addition, I have lived the major part of my life with what you would call 'Dalits', and then in a multi religious and multi ethnic mix. Therefore, I don't have a tunnel vision to life.

I am proud of the Indian culture, history and heritage. I am also a nationalist and also, my childhood and profession has allowed me to see the goodness that is India. I daresay that you can call me not a nationalist and a proud Indian since I have served the nation in my humble way and put my life in harm's way ( a cute saying of Bush and American for merely doing one's duty and ensuring that one fulfils his obligation to his nation)
as my ancestors did!

And between you and me, I don't care what foreigners think of us or the various rabid religious groups of India thinks of what is there definition of being Indians!

I am an Indian, always and every time!

Unfortunately, I am not an Indian who is not ready to accept India with all its warts! We must remove these warts without being aggressive, belligerent and obnoxious!

Being tolerant to ambiguity is not the birthright of defied leader of our country who are raised to the divine level.

Even normal and humble Indians have that right!

[/quote]

Well said.

I feel your pain. Please recognize the pain implicit in my post behind the heavy sarcasm.

Unfortunately, the warts you talk about, that afflict India, are there not out of some accident or because there is some inherent flaw in us as Indians. They are there because every single wart that exists, big or small, benefits some narrow vested interest, who have the power to, by design, inflict this wart on us with impunity. Our only flaw as a people is that we have been too tolerant of these warts and have been unable to cut them off ruthlessly.

Our general culture, of which BRF is a good representation (despite its membership being from the top 10%, at least terms of IQ), has now come to a point where it demonizes people who talk about these warts or identify them, as it has become complicit with these narrow vested interests, through a tendency among masses to aspire to be one of these vested interests. One of the ways of demonizing has been perfected at BRF, although not an exclusive BRF phenomenon, which is to label anyone who brings up these warts as "Dhimmi" or having "slave mentality" vis-a-vis the West. Another way of marginalizing any internal criticism of our culture and warts is also perfected in BRF, by calling each one of these warts at one time or another, "Chanakyan", and therefore, something that is beyond the comprehension of the "nitwits" who criticize Indian culture from within.

As a new member, I am amazed to find phrases strewn across BRF such as "those who know", "those who have been around", etc, as explanation for the inexplicable (as the warts really are inexplicable and even the master spinners everywhere including BRF cannot really spin them). These phrases speak volumes of people who use them, as pompous asses and ignoramus who have no self respect which results in them blatantly putting down other people by implying that they "are not in the know" or "have not been around". These phrases are clearly designed to serve vested interests by preserving the warts you talk about and the tactic is extremely divisive as it divides people into "those who know" and those who dont, and scuttles the argument, rather than having an open discussion on these warts.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 21 Aug 2009 19:06

As far as hostage taking is concerned, I am strongly in favor of these 3 options

- you don't negotiate and force a surrender

- you negotiate but storm

- you pay ransom but also hunt down all hostage-takers and kill them after paying them the ransom.

We should have gone after the hostage takers of IA in Kandahar and the released terrorists with a vengeance, and not rested until having drunk the blood of all of them.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Aug 2009 19:08

RayC wrote: I gave them.

Sad that you did not read them and went off into the blue!

RayC I admit being guilty of not clicking on the link, but I do not recall going off into the blue - whatever that is supposed to mean in this context.

I do recall giving an explanation that you did not want. But I think the record needs to be set straight and explanation given because so many others read the same things.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 21 Aug 2009 19:21

RayC wrote:It is true that Sardar Patel put things in place to make what is India today, but then he is no God. Or is he?

I don't know, but considering that he put together a country the size of India, does place him at the level of Gods. Considering that the politicians of today have nothing to show for, any one from the years of our Freedom Struggle is a God.

But nothing stops us from criticizing our Gods, does it?

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 21 Aug 2009 19:24

ashish raval wrote: What errors did he made could you elaborate ? explain this in context of an ill-defined problem whose solution is approximate and cannot have a perfect solution. Errors are justified if the solution is near to what is expected. No man is perfect or in other words a perfect man is not born so far in Kalyug.

I don't understand this Kalyug and other nonsense as if to be an Indian I have to know it.

The Partition is the biggest error.It is a big trauma who have experienced it.

I am not an Akhand Bharat bloke but I am a person who understand what it is to lose his home and hearth and have his people killed.

How many have experienced such a traumatic such an experienced?

munna · Post by **munna** » 21 Aug 2009 19:25

RayC wrote:The Punjabi refugees got compensation and each one claimed that they had land as big as west Pakistan and we Bengalees were under Evacuee Properties Act?

RayC I expected better stuff from you! The simple answer to your rhetorical diatribe against Punjabi refugees is that Punjab (pre-1966 joint one) did not have enough land to rehabilitate all the refugees from West Punjab and the land available with us was salinated, poor quality and non irrigated. In short the poor people left lands which were rich and fertile to receive poor quality land that too in smaller quantity. Guha's book has excellent account on this, unfortunately there is no preview available on Google books but J Subramanium's blog has excerpts from the book and I quote

A large number of Muslims had left East Punjab for Pakistan. But there was an even greater influx of Hindus and Sikhs into the east from Pakistan. Most of these refugees were farmers. Together they had abandoned 2.7 million hectares of land in Western Punjab but across the border in India where they now had to make a living only 1.9 million hectares had been left behind by Muslim farmers who had fled the opposite way. Not only that, the new lands were also less fertile than the richer, abundantly irrigated soils they had been cultivating in the west.

Bottomline everybody suffered due to some megalomaniacs but some of us fared better later in the day and the others did not.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 21 Aug 2009 19:36

RayC wrote:
RayC wrote:It is true that Sardar Patel put things in place to make what is India today, but then he is no God. Or is he?
RajeshA wrote: I don't know, but considering that he put together a country the size of India, does place him at the level of Gods. Considering that the politicians of today have nothing to show for, any one from the years of our Freedom Struggle is a God.

But nothing stops us from criticizing our Gods, does it?

Edited and with unqualified apology, Ray

RayC saar,
you have lost me there!

I couldn't make out the connection between considering the stalwarts of our Freedom Struggle in high regard, and my alleged Punjabi refugee status, or payment-dependent beliefs!

munna · Post by **munna** » 21 Aug 2009 19:40

RayC wrote:Edited with unqualified apology

Downright sad!

samuel · Post by **samuel** » 21 Aug 2009 19:50

The effect of Jaswant Singh being expelled on India is marginal at best.
The effect of Jaswant Singh being expelled on BJP is a polarization that was already underway after repeated failures to take the middle.
The effect on Jaswant Singh will be, after a suitable catharsis, a realization that he never belonged. And he will do well to start on his own.
I hope to get my hands on his book and, if for no other reason than to surface the role that Hon'ble Sardar Patel, Pandit Nehru and Mahatma Gandhi played in partition, explicitly or implictly, I would want to learn. And, if it helps us understand Jinnah in a manner different than the propaganda of the Quaid, it could be welcome. Shame, utter disgrace, on Modi for banning it.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 21 Aug 2009 19:56

RayC wrote:
I don't understand this Kalyug and other nonsense as if to be an Indian I have to know it.

The Partition is the biggest error.It is a big trauma who have experienced it.

I am not an Akhand Bharat bloke but I am a person who understand what it is to lose his home and hearth and have his people killed.

How many have experienced such a traumatic such an experienced?

I was just mentioning Kalyug in relation to perfect man "Ram". Partition will be an error according to you but not for a majority of Indians or even Bengali's whom I have contact with that includes those who were displaced. Forget about partition, even today Hindu's/non-muslims are being displaced in "East bengal" and you can imagine what would be the case if it was not partitioned.
Partition is a traumatic experience which needs both time and better management to lessen its effects. I have not experienced it but I know people who were displaced in Bengal, Kashmir, Sindh and Punjab.

negi · Post by **negi** » 21 Aug 2009 20:00

Ok one thing is clear LKA's lies are coming out in open.

munna · Post by **munna** » 21 Aug 2009 20:04

negi wrote:Ok one thing is clear LKA's lies are coming out in open.

Try telling that to Loh Purush's fan boys! Apparently the fundoos are suggesting a 2014 run for PM-ship for him

.

samuel · Post by **samuel** » 21 Aug 2009 20:09

BJP, in my opinion, returns to its ideological center where it will wrap around RSS and stay there, perhaps getting a few states. Taking on INC's international ummah and national cohorts will require a new center to emerge, left of BJP, and there could be no better opportunity than this in the short term.

A few others must leave for critical mass form. I see great opportunity. If Mr. Shourie departs, that would be a start. Modi and Advani can go back to a sustainable core and that will be the end of this legacy.

S

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Aug 2009 20:09

RayC - I am now ploughing through Nirad Chaudhuri's second autobiography volume. He speaks cryptically of a different type of East Bengali culture - which he hailed from - and a riparian way of life which embodied Bengali culture. But he also speaks of the manner in which Bengali, and Indian culture itself was modified by British influence. Do you have any insights on this? I rarely hear Bengalis yearning for the lost life in East Bengal - but that may be my ignorance

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 21 Aug 2009 20:23

ashish raval wrote: I was just mentioning Kalyug in relation to perfect man "Ram". Partition will be an error according to you but not for a majority of Indians or even Bengali's whom I have contact with that includes those who were displaced. Forget about partition, even today Hindu's/non-muslims are being displaced in "East bengal" and you can imagine what would be the case if it was not partitioned.
Partition is a traumatic experience which needs both time and better management to lessen its effects. I have not experienced it but I know people who were displaced in Bengal, Kashmir, Sindh and Punjab.

and you have authoritative information for that feeling of the majority of Indians? How many references can you cite with such information that partition was the desire of a majority of Indians and specifically Hindus? Now, how many references do you want this board to cite you, that you are plain dead wrong in the above assessment. So, take the brigadiers advice on the matter.....

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 21 Aug 2009 20:28

shivji,
RayC may have a different take.
I think its a love hate relationship. Hatred for the eviction, and the silent bleeding for the soil of one's childhood. It will take 3 generatiosn to start searching for their roots and reconstruct a new romantic past. Second generation sort of indifferent. There are plenty of Bengali voices wistfully yearning for pre-Partition days. Ritwik was the earliest filmmaker to deal with this in a poignant semi-autobiograhical movie which showed the camera panning and waving into a disused and disjointed railway track that had once connected across the border.

There are two trends. One is a renewed youth interconnection especially on the cultural side, some of which have strong anti-fundamentalist and "Bengali commonality" undercurrents. As one prominent young singer from BD put it passionately on a TV interview, the "Mullah"'s have to be cornered and put out of "action" - it is time for them to take on the cultural offensive. The girl had once been an addict, but to recover she started going to Boul meets, and fell in love with the syncretic tradition that had been (and is) a target from both sides of the fence (especially the Lalan-tradition which is being forced into the Islamic orthodoxy and establishment). So these bands are reviving and repackaging the non-funadamentalist Bengali base back into the urban milieu. They collaborate extensively with Indian counterparts.

The other side is continued political extremism of the separatist hue - this is aimed at carving out a separate state in the Chittagong area for non-Muslims, independent of BD.

samuel · Post by **samuel** » 21 Aug 2009 20:46

Partition was utterly reprehensible and it happened. I have never experienced it but I have lived all my life among people who have. It matters not here whether they were from the east or the west. There is a sense, at least in my mind, that
a) if we had not partitioned, we'd be overwhelmed in the international pawn game today and it would look very difficult. Could we be a somalia, I don't know; but we certainly could have become a basket case.

b) if we let regimes in partitioned areas grow and sustain we will be overwhelmed in an international pawn game.

c) we have greater confidence, having established a differential, on largely "Hindu India" as the world refers to us, to stand on our own two feet. I have that pride, even as I try not to be a proud individual.

d) And, weed out or let implode or fight those that will seek to marginalize us out of our current boundaries.

e) Thus, grow the core.

So, let's close ranks and look ahead to undo and let heal.

As regards JS and relevance to this thread, his book may help us with a different view that could be coopted or adapted to the growth of the core.

JMT
S

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Aug 2009 20:49

After the trauma of the Partition, revitalising East Punjab was job number one. It became the bread basket for the nation. So investments in Punjab were a national priority.
I agree that East Bengal displaced persons were not given the same priority for the return in investment. Its a trade-off when you have limited funds. Nagarjuna Sagar dam got delayed many times to support rebuliding East Punjab. The bridge on Godavari was delayed in 1970s as the steel was needed for the bridge in Bangla Desh which got blown up by the Pakis. So delays and trade-offs in national interests occur.

What Sardar Patel did was akin to a bloodless French Revolution when he changed the feudal society into a modern one without the extreme bloodshed that other ancient societies underwent in bringing about social transformation.

Modi had to ban the book as the Patel community in Gujarat would be up in arms and he faces elections.

Sidenote: Benazir Bhutto made the TAFTA comments on Larry King show.

Folks return to discussing the topic and not each other.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Aug 2009 21:10

Also:

The expulsion thread is needed as its major event and its ramifications need to be understood as we see the major opposition party(BJP) implode. To be honest they were becoming unrepresentative of the majority religion. Maybe a true centrist formation will now emerge.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 21 Aug 2009 21:15

Re the Apte report

One thing the report seems to gloss over is the introduction of the 'get black money back from overseas' drumbeat introduced midway in the campaign. It made foes out of almost all sections of the elites, all of whom have monies stashed abroad.

That undercurrent of uncertainty in this heavily influenctial group never showed up in any media reports or polls but quietly swept the rug off the NDA's feet.

Strictly IMVVHO only.

munna · Post by **munna** » 21 Aug 2009 21:24

ramana wrote:Also:

The expulsion thread is needed as its major event and its ramifications need to be understood as we see the major opposition party(BJP) implode. To be honest they were becoming unrepresentative of the majority religion. Maybe a true centrist formation will now emerge.

Ramanaji in the shaheedized election thread I had been pointing out to cabal/mafiosi like attitude of the central leadership of BJP. They have silenced or finished all the original leadership of BJP of nineties and now have ornamental leaders devoid of any mass following. The entire Ram Janmabhooomi brigade of Uma Bharati, ML Khurana, MM Joshi, Kalyan Singh and Govindacharya are out of the party. Then they have undertaken a krystallnacht operation against moderates in the shape of Yashwant Sinha, Arun Shourie and Jaswant Singh. So they have angered/killed off grassroot leaders of Hindu nationalism, managed to decimate the centre of right moderates and are stuck with 4 CMs in the states with none of them anywhere near ABV in terms of acceptability. In Haryana they have allied with a corrupt and decreipt ally and lost, in Punjab they keep supporting the nepotism of Badal clan while Akali legislators barge into the house of BJP's senior most minister and abuse him while the central leadership choses to ignore the incident, in Delhi ticket distribution was done on the whims and fancies of vakil sahib and results are there for all to see and finally the slf killing spree culminated in the big humiliation of May 2009. I support N^3-e-Gas-Turbini's resolution of dissolving BJP to generate somthing better and more agile to needs of the day.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Aug 2009 21:47

No that group might be useful as it is to become the lightning rod for the secularists ire! Then the rest of the majority can move ahead.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 21 Aug 2009 21:50

ramana wrote:
What Sardar Patel did was akin to a bloodless French Revolution when he changed the feudal society into a modern one without the extreme bloodshed that other ancient societies underwent in bringing about social transformation.

How? Integration of Princely states?
I want to know your interpretations

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 21 Aug 2009 21:50

BRIGADIER SAAB,

I am a SDRE cowering and shivering in my loins in my white dhoti( I am a chennaite who relishes rice). me thinks thou protest too much!

BRF is a true blue blooded yindian forum.Adminullahs,BRADMINS,seem to be governed by different rules.They can disparage,malign anyone and get away.

Afsar Sahib,

Have you heard of Swami Vivekananda,Netaji,Bankim Chandra Chattpadyay,Nirad Chaudhary or is it all only 'suttee' of the Hindoos.

The Jat Sikhs of Punjab gave it back to the Muslims.May I humbly ask (without disparaging the sub alterns in East Bengal) what was the reaction of the East Bengal elite?

If you try to give an honest answer,you will know a lot about India,her polity,land,caste,dominant peasant castes,intelligentsia,indian values,ideals,reality,change,kaliyug,BRF,aspirations,limitations of those who post here and possible roadmaps for the future.

Every goddam christist society or any other society has had the same contradictions and liabilities India has now.They were better at packaging rubbish.Our society has had the courage to look into itself many times in its long history.

JS was peddling rubbish.If he has pains,so has everyone else.Good riddance.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Aug 2009 22:16

One thing is very clear the JS has re-opened the 'closed' Partition saga. He blames the INC more than the ML for the same. In this he is in his opposition role. One has to wonder at the BJP leadership which by expelling him has managed to bring the controversey on themsleves instead of the INC!

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 21 Aug 2009 22:22

ShauryaT wrote:and you have authoritative information for that feeling of the majority of Indians? How many references can you cite with such information that partition was the desire of a majority of Indians and specifically Hindus? Now, how many references do you want this board to cite you, that you are plain dead wrong in the above assessment. So, take the brigadiers advice on the matter.....

Ofcourse, I can speak with confidence and not as an authority of what I am saying. I have asked this to atleast 50 of my bengali friends and not one not one out of this 50 has said that partition was wrong. Out of this there were many who has lost out in partition.
For rest of people with whom I have interacted this is not even an issue it was a downright necesity (no if's and no but's). The only thing is that it should have been better managed both pre-partition and post-partition.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 21 Aug 2009 22:29

AbhishekD wrote:
A.Lincoln was a lawyer for the Railroad industry that was booming at that time. The rail road companies were not really nice guys - they did what they had to do be in business. Also he his supposed to have used the railroad extensively for his election campaigns as well. Point being.....let us not deify leaders.
A.Lincoln was a lawyer for the Railroad industry that was booming at that time. The rail road companies were not really nice guys - they did what they had to do be in business. Also he his supposed to have used the railroad extensively for his election campaigns as well. Point being.....let us not deify leaders.
Whats the point. A Lincoln stood up. MKG, Patel and Nehru did not. History is very brutal. In the end India was partitioned and America was not. A Lincoln saved America and that was what Congress leaders needed to do.

Read Azad's book ..he tends to blame Nehru. However, at the same time it is easy to sully leaders on one facet of their lives or actions. They did a lot more even if they were not able to contain the partition.

faraz · Post by **faraz** » 21 Aug 2009 22:54

Friends, Please stick to point unless you want a 'Danda' from respected Moderators.

The forum is "What is the effect of Jaswant Singh being expelled ?". Was not there another thread for discussion of Partition ? I have not read these books but I heard Karan Thapar's interview with Jaswant Singh. I am attaching those two parts over here:

http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/99321/08_2 ... swant.html

http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/99323/gand ... swant.html

It is great that he has been expelled ! He was too open-minded to fight a zealot enemy hell-bent on destroying India .

He talks of pain in the eyes of Muslims. Could not he see the pain in the eyes of the common man ?

He says that Jinnah was not anti-Hindu. If Jinnah was not anti-Hindu, then Ariel Sharon is not anti-Arabs.

I can write more on this topic. But would like to control my anger.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 21 Aug 2009 23:02

faraz wrote:Friends, Please stick to point unless you want a 'Danda' from respected Moderators.

Chingaari Koi Bhadke... To Saawan use Bujhaaye..
Saawan jo Aag lagaaye... Use kaun Bujhaaye???

I think BJP is loosing one good opportunity for turning the tables against INC and discrediting the achievements of Jinnah as favours by India on Pakistan. This book can be one of the steps to take down Jinnah from higher pedastle in minds of Pakis. Instead, BJP is busy mudslinging on each other. It is pity of India to have such incompetent leaders in the national party. This book could have questioned the infallibility of INC leaders, thus decreasing the political mileage of INC and created doubts in the minds of Pakis reading the book about megalomaniacal portrayal of Jinnah and his achievements.

I personally do not support the move of Modi to ban the book. It is a moot-point to ban an opinion you secretly attest.

faraz · Post by **faraz** » 21 Aug 2009 23:18

Chiron wrote:This book can be one of the steps to take down Jinnah from higher pedastle in minds of Pakis. Instead, BJP is busy mudslinging on each other. It is pity of India to have such incompetent leaders in the national party. This book could have questioned the infallibility of INC leaders, thus decreasing the political mileage of INC and created doubts in the minds of Pakis reading the book about megalomaniacal portrayal of Jinnah and his achievements.

Do Pakis have mind ? Can we create doubts in the minds of Pakis reading the book ? I do not think so. They are an ignorant, zealot lot. Those religous zealots are fed up with anti-India poison from their school days. Most of the Pakis that I met are full of Conspiracy Theories.

About India having incompetent leader; the less said the better.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 21 Aug 2009 23:42

The Punjabi refugees got compensation and each one claimed that they had land as big as west Pakistan and we Bengalees were under Evacuee Properties Act?

My great great grandfather S. Buta Singh Bajwa inherited 5 murrabbe (125 acres at Narowal, Sialkote District). He also and got 10 Murabbe (250 acres) as a pension for his service/rewards in army at the newly created city of Lyallpur (late 1800s.) now this city is called "Faisalabad" by naPakistanis, The land was chak no. 271 outside of a city called Samundri. Most of this 375 acres of land was jungles., that he and my great grandfather S. Arjan Singh Bajwa made cultivable by pulling out the trees, rocks, killing snakes, keeping the Afghani and Baluchi thieves at bay through gun battles, etc.. Since there was no labor they could fix only make about 5-10 acres each year. Later when canals were dug this land became excellent. Similarly other cities of West punjab like Sahiwal, Montgomery, etc were newly created colonies called "BAR" which were jungles before 1890s and by 1910s excellent land due to hard work by the retiring defense folks.

so out of total of 375 acres of land they left behind in Pakistan they got 90 acres in Gurdaspur district in 1952 (To make ends meet for 7 tough years after they left their lands all my elder uncles joined army). The land they got was about 1/4th of what they left behind. Most families didn't even got that as they left without getting their papers from Patwari or Tehsildars.

Apart from murdering, abducting, maiming millions of innocent people, Partition of India destroyed generations of accumulated wealth.

munna · Post by **munna** » 21 Aug 2009 23:46

^^Bajwaji I have also answered the honorable mods forceful assertions but to no avail. Coupled with loss of lands in West Punjab the land (whatever that was available) on East Punjab side especially the Malwa belt was not fertile and suffered from salinity.

Added later:
Forget about the farming classes the tragedy of the urban Sikhs/Hindus of Lahore and Sialkot is even worse. They left behind sprawling mansions, businesses and valuables in Bakiland and never got reimbursed for anything. My grandmother employed as a housemaid one such unfortunate lady who was some lalaji of Lahore's widow and used to recount her riches before us kids. A very sophisticated lady reduced to nothingness. Fate was cruel to land of five rivers very cruel! I hate it when BRF-ites suffer from fits of parochialism, we all are Indians first. Jai Hind

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 21 Aug 2009 23:46

Ray saab is enacting last man standing at Alipore.

(The local version of Last man standing in Ali mo)

Ray saab has been out flanked, now he has to Bash on regardless.

( pun is the lowest form of humor , But it takes understanding Rahul garu

)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Aug 2009 00:02

munna, Its our duty to bring out the facts and let them speak for themselves. This way we do serve.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 22 Aug 2009 00:09

munna wrote:^^Bajwaji I have also answered the honorable mods forceful assertions but to no avail. Coupled with loss of lands in West Punjab the land (whatever that was available) on East Punjab side especially the Malwa belt was not fertile and suffered from salinity.

Added later:
Forget about the farming classes the tragedy of the urban Sikhs/Hindus of Lahore and Sialkot is even worse. They left behind sprawling mansions, businesses and valuables in Bakiland and never got reimbursed for anything. My grandmother employed as a housemaid one such unfortunate lady who was some lalaji of Lahore's widow and used to recount her riches before us kids. A very sophisticated lady reduced to nothingness. Fate was cruel to land of five rivers very cruel! I hate it when BRF-ites suffer from fits of parochialism, we all are Indians first. Jai Hind

I read the article about Kalpana Chawla's father and how he built his family. It was really tearful.