Su-30: News and Discussion

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 15 Aug 2009 17:59

They comfirmed officially: serial Su-34 has tail radar and can attack rear side targets by missiles without turning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5gTB3AQPE0

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Aug 2009 18:07

Igorr wrote:They comfirmed officially: serial Su-34 has tail radar and can attack rear side targets by missiles without turning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5gTB3AQPE0

That was always the case my friend , the point is which radar do the Su-34 , Leninets V004/V005 or something else , Pitor had mentioned that that nose mounted V004 did not work well hence was rejected , can you confirm ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Aug 2009 18:31

kinda useful I guess if jumped by interceptors , the escaping strike a/c can unleash a few missiles and keep on going fast to safety.

but its not useful if targeted by BVR missiles from interceptors.

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 15 Aug 2009 19:15

Austin wrote:
Igorr wrote:They comfirmed officially: serial Su-34 has tail radar and can attack rear side targets by missiles without turning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5gTB3AQPE0
That was always the case my friend , the point is which radar do the Su-34 , Leninets V004/V005 or something else , Pitor had mentioned that that nose mounted V004 did not work well hence was rejected , can you confirm ?

It isnt Leninets' B-004 but Fazotron's N-012 'Rassvet' tail PESA radar according to reliable sources like Aussipower.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 19 Aug 2009 08:51

A little OT
Sukhoi signs record $2.5 bln deal with Russian defense ministry

Russia also plans to export at least 160 Su-35 fighters to several countries including India, Malaysia and Algeria.

sourab_c · Post by **sourab_c** » 20 Aug 2009 05:41

Total indigenisation of Sukhoi next year: HAL

http://www.hindu.com/2009/08/20/stories ... 882000.htm

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 20 Aug 2009 06:34

“Next year, HAL will achieve 100 per cent indigenisation of the Sukhoi aircraft — from the production of raw materials to the final plane assembly,” V. Balakrishnan, general manager, Aircraft Manufacturing Division, told The Hindu here.

Tyres ? Engine blades ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Aug 2009 06:44

it probably means whatever was the initial target of indigenous parts will be met. stuff like the Bars radar antenna and power components were not in the agreement and tikhomirov will continue to supply that. as also most of the engine , tyres etc.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Aug 2009 06:45

Gerard wrote:
“Next year, HAL will achieve 100 per cent indigenisation of the Sukhoi aircraft — from the production of raw materials to the final plane assembly,” V. Balakrishnan, general manager, Aircraft Manufacturing Division, told The Hindu here.
Tyres ? Engine blades ?

In fact - upon reflection the news probably actually means what I describe below, but appears to mean something else

Agreement between Russia and India re manufacture of Su-30

1) Group A items - all to be imported forever
2) Group B items - to be initially imported, with gradual, time bound indigenization to achieve 100% indigenization by date 20xx

When India speaks of 100% indigenization the reference is only to Group B items that were agreed upon initially as items that would be indigenized. For the rest, we will remain dependent.

But heck - isn't this the story of all "deep ToT"?

An OT comment: This is why I sincerely believe that India might possibly be able to achieve realistic indigenization of 70% of F/A 18 in 10 years, but will achieve 70% indigenization of Rafale only in 15-20 years. Just a guess - to indicate the level of tech we are able to absorb.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Aug 2009 09:15

Su-35BM: A Nice Writeup

Eventually we may see these specific technologies being backported to the MKI where ever possible.

George J · Post by **George J** » 20 Aug 2009 10:07

Singha wrote:........... stuff like the Bars radar antenna and power components were not in the agreement and tikhomirov will continue to supply that. as also most of the engine , tyres etc.

Bars or as HAL prefers to call it RLSU is being mfg by HAL Hyd. A couple of pieces of already been delivered (or at least the technical documents related to it).

HAL Koraput has been tooled up in 2004 (ish) a.k.a Sukhoi Engine Building Facility for the mfg of AL-31FP. But its not clear if they are doing assembly from SKD/CKD engines.

All this is HAL's in house publication Minsk Square Matters.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Aug 2009 10:09

not sure if anyone has it, but pyotr bukowski's huge article on the mki deal had the stuff
on which components NIIP would always export and would not be made locally. afair they include the front part of the bars.

steve · Post by **steve** » 20 Aug 2009 13:44

“Next year, HAL will achieve 100 per cent indigenisation of the Sukhoi aircraft — from the production of raw materials to the final plane assembly,”

At last we will have the complete technology that goes in to su-30 MKI

Last year, HAL mastered the manufacture of the wing and the tail. This year, it started producing the fuselage and raw materials, Mr. Balakrishnan said.

I thought we were making these parts for long time . Very surprised to read that it is only last year we started to make Wings and tail followed by fuselage only this very year.
Any way never late that ever.

The final and most challenging phase involved the indigenous manufacture of the engine.

OOOOOO my god, undoubtly the best part of the news.

“We’re currently testing the locally produced engine for the Su-30MKI and are planning to launch its production in 2010.”

Hope HAL will transfer technology related to Single Crystal Turbine Blades and other critical technologies that comes out of manufacturing AL-31 FP for SU-30 Mki at the earliest .

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 20 Aug 2009 20:22

George J wrote:
Singha wrote:........... stuff like the Bars radar antenna and power components were not in the agreement and tikhomirov will continue to supply that. as also most of the engine , tyres etc.
...
...
HAL Koraput has been tooled up in 2004 (ish) a.k.a Sukhoi Engine Building Facility for the mfg of AL-31FP. But its not clear if they are doing assembly from SKD/CKD engines.

All this is HAL's in house publication Minsk Square Matters.

GeorgeJ, for engines it appears to be SKD/CKD ... atleast in areas like blades etc. The current major headache is to get the SC blade (withstanding 1950K or thereabouts TET) tech manufacturing technology which we appear to have not opted for - maybe the learning-curve gradient was way too steep, a decade back.

Opportunity lost, I'd say - specially looking at the where we are on Kaveri nowadays. But then why'd HAL care for DRDO/GTRE's problem?

But, seriously, what I've never understood is, even if we have not opted for it about 10yrs back, can't it be re-negotiated now? Of-course, the Russian friends will demand a disproportionate amount of price-escalation, but is it still not worth it?

George J · Post by **George J** » 20 Aug 2009 21:24

HAL to supply components for Sukhoi fighters to Russia wrote: "We are already supplying navigation and communication equipment for installation on the Su-30MK series of fighters exported by Russia to other countries," GM of HAL's Nasik based Aircraft Manufacturing Division, V Balakrishnan said on sidelines of the International Aerospace Show-MAKS-2009.

The new agreement would provide for expanding the inventory to include the supply of airframe components for the multi-role jets to be exported by Russia, he said.

Russia has supplied Su-30MK series fighters to Malaysia and Indonesia and there are plans to export this powerful weapons platform to Algeria and Venezuela, media reports said.

"Next year HAL will achieve 100 per cent indigenisation of the Sukhoi aircraft - from the production of raw materials to the final plane assembly. We're currently testing the locally produced engine for Su-30MKI and are planning to launch its production in 2010," Balakrishnan said.

"HAL will manufacture 60 Su-30MKI fighters in the full production cycle till 2015," Balakrishnan said.

Singha,
For HAL setting up the facility and handing over of the first RLSU is a big deal and that's why its in MSM.
http://mail.hal-india.com/mps/msm/Minsk ... ssue59.pdf (there is one more reference to the technical documents in an MSM issue)
If you want to still believe PiBu, I can't stop you.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Aug 2009 23:06

I have not looked into how many Su air crafts the RuAF hosts (of the MKI class), but I find it rather difficult to believe that it would be greater than the IAF.

Also, the urgency to build and support true front line air crafts is far more urgent in India that in Russia as we post. (????)

Then, funds. Clearly India - at this point in time - has greater funds that does the RUian MoD. Just as an obeservation - not a knock on them.

And, finally, the need to acquire technology is FAR greater in the Indian situation than in the Russian.

It is therefore no surprise that India would take a lead in building or funding newer technologies. Although Russia will have a better brain power specially based on experience, it is India that will slowly take the lead as we move forward.

JMTs.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 21 Aug 2009 02:20

The new agreement would provide for expanding the inventory to include the supply of airframe components for the multi-role jets to be exported by Russia, he said.

Russia has supplied Su-30MK series fighters to Malaysia and Indonesia and there are plans to export this powerful weapons platform to Algeria and Venezuela, media reports said.

"Next year HAL will achieve 100 per cent indigenisation of the Sukhoi aircraft - from the production of raw materials to the final plane assembly. We're currently testing the locally produced engine for Su-30MKI and are planning to launch its production in 2010," Balakrishnan said.

THis is good news imho. India is believed to have reached a certain level of expertise in composite mfg. This is what the roosies want to tap india for in terms of the Pakfa prog. Question is - are the no. of composite parts on the MKI being increased? Last I heard it was 6% (by weight i think). The IAF fulcrums are also supposed to have benefitted from the addition of composite materials at BRD 11. One can clearly see this trend on the IN Mig-29Ks where composite usage has jumped to 15%. Whats the status on the MKI?

I don't think the Su-35 will ever see IAF colors, the MKI should be good enough with further upgrades. JMT.

CM.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Aug 2009 06:17

NRao wrote:It is therefore no surprise that India would take a lead in building or funding newer technologies. Although Russia will have a better brain power specially based on experience, it is India that will slowly take the lead as we move forward.

JMTs.

True , there is a lot of money being pumped in by India to boost up conventional forces across the board , while Russia is spending money to pump up its nuclear force across the board , leaving small amounts to purchase big ticket items in small numbers.

But the key difference is not what they have and what we have , its the will to fight is what matters , when the time comes we tend to pussy foot and netas end up with peace talk and general looking for the right weather to fight.

Else all this buy are just expensive billion dollar arm for R Day parade and to show how good it is at Red Flag , at tax payers cost.

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 21 Aug 2009 08:40

Austin wrote:But the key difference is not what they have and what we have , its the will to fight is what matters , when the time comes we tend to pussy foot and netas end up with peace talk and general looking for the right weather to fight. Else all this buy are just expensive billion dollar arm for R Day parade and to show how good it is at Red Flag , at tax payers cost.

I agree with the emotion behind it. But practically the best weapon purchases are the ones which can prevent a conflict in the first place by scaring the enemy.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Aug 2009 10:53

abhiti wrote:I agree with the emotion behind it. But practically the best weapon purchases are the ones which can prevent a conflict in the first place by scaring the enemy.

Ofcourse , but guess what Abdul cares a sh** and kicks our ball at his will , while we are more facinated about the best imported toy which can scare Abdul

As the wise men saith India gets what it deserves

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 21 Aug 2009 10:55

Su-35 on offer to india :

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/08/ex ... offer.html

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 21 Aug 2009 10:56

Unconventional warfare requires unconventional tactics , however in the curious case of Pukistan - whenever they estimated our armed forces to be at their most vulnerable they have taken advantage (or at least tried to ) , be it 48, 65 , 71 or 99. In the case of China this becomes all the more important.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Aug 2009 11:25

Nihat wrote:Unconventional warfare requires unconventional tactics , however in the curious case of Pukistan - whenever they estimated our armed forces to be at their most vulnerable they have taken advantage (or at least tried to ) , be it 48, 65 , 71 or 99. In the case of China this becomes all the more important.

The strength of the nation lies in its resolve and will to fight , toys are just a means and one part of the matrix , India is not militarily weak and the strength of billion people will not be taken for granted even by mighty.

But if India does not have the balls to act and Netas , Babus and Military are happy in their comfort zone and luxury there is nothing much better the billion can look forward for, no matter how expensive and imported these toys are. We are just happy to be import friendly nation.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 21 Aug 2009 11:32

What do we need Su-35 for ? More training, qualifications and separate qualified crew required for it. All what Su-35 has will come during MLU when first upgrade starts.We need to bring LCA online not go around with a shopping cart.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 24 Aug 2009 17:29

x-posted

Pics from Vishnu. He just flew an MKI at MAKS and got some cockpit shots .

flew a Su-30MKI sortie at the Moscow airshow with Yuri Valchuk ... one of Sukhoi's Chief Test pilots. Did a Kulbit, flat spin etc ... I have some of that on tape. Will send you a video of what a thrust-vectored flat spin looks like from inside a cockpit. Meanwhile ... here are a few images of my sortie ... the interesting pic here is the trigger for the KH-59 ...

anyone keeping count of his sorties? !!!

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 24 Aug 2009 17:48

Jagan wrote:x-posted
Pics from Vishnu. He just flew an MKI at MAKS and got some cockpit shots .

Is that rust on that thing and why is the paint all like it's peeling off.

naird · Post by **naird** » 24 Aug 2009 19:14

AmitR wrote:
Jagan wrote:x-posted
Pics from Vishnu. He just flew an MKI at MAKS and got some cockpit shots .

Is that rust on that thing and why is the paint all like it's peeling off.

AFAIK Russia doesnt operate SU 30 MKI or even any version of SU 30. This must be one of the older SU 27's from RuAF. That may explain the 'not so good' condition that cockpit is in........

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 24 Aug 2009 19:21

According to latest vayu No.2 squadron is now equiped with Su-30 MKI & based at Tezpur

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 24 Aug 2009 19:23

whats the upgrade path for the MKI?

Indrajit · Post by **Indrajit** » 24 Aug 2009 19:29

Is this the 2nd Prototype MKI still flying?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 24 Aug 2009 19:53

naird wrote:
AFAIK Russia doesnt operate SU 30 MKI or even any version of SU 30. This must be one of the older SU 27's from RuAF. That may explain the 'not so good' condition that cockpit is in........

The cockpit is definitely that of an MKI not some old Su-27. It looks the same as the few other pics of the MKI cockpit that are available. I also don't think Vishnu Som would claim that it was the MKI cockpit if it wasn't. He's not your usual DDM.
Also look at the aircraft in the background. You can see the canards and TV engine nozzles.
This must be one of the earliest MKI prototypes developed.

Vinay_D · Post by **Vinay_D** » 24 Aug 2009 21:48

AmitR wrote:
Jagan wrote:x-posted
Pics from Vishnu. He just flew an MKI at MAKS and got some cockpit shots .
Is that rust on that thing and why is the paint all like it's peeling off.

One of those SB 01 to SB 18 of 1997 lot which were returned to Russia???? They were supposed to be upgraded to MKI standard by Russia and then sold off. That could account for the canards seen on the plane in the background.

George J · Post by **George J** » 25 Aug 2009 00:02

If the plane in the background is the "MKI" that Vishnu Flew, then what is this a/c which was seen in Malta in 2005???

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Russia-- ... 0904330/L/

negi · Post by **negi** » 25 Aug 2009 00:08

Fwiw the both the pictures have same serial nos on the tail fin (722) and the as well as on the fuselage (02) and oh yes same cammo.

Bob V · Post by **Bob V** » 25 Aug 2009 06:09

George J wrote:If the plane in the background is the "MKI" that Vishnu Flew, then what is this a/c which was seen in Malta in 2005???

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Russia-- ... 0904330/L/

I think this is same a/c which took part in Aero India '05 or '07.....maybe a prototype for validating new technologies.

Vishnu · Post by **Vishnu** » 25 Aug 2009 11:00

Hi Guys ... It is a Su-30 MKI ... cross-checked this ... didn't unfortunately check out the exact number etc ... the plane is with Sukhoi ... its fully operational ... I think for validating technologies and being used as a demonstrator ... but yes, the quality of the cockpit (and I realise this is superficial) was a bit shocking ... what you can't see in the pictures are the panel gaps between the MFDs and the console. However ... what struck me was how "clean" the rear cockpit was ... Not as many switches as the rear seats of the other jets I have flown on. Simple ... and functional. MFDs were very easy to understand.

Lets not make a big deal about the "quality" of the cockpit. It works just fine. Read my older posts on Red Flag. I regret I don't have answers to many of the questions you may have ... Yuri Valchuk, my pilot spoke only Russian ... and the translator couldn't understand my questions ... I found Yuri's answers mismatched !

Anyway, at some stage ... I will put up in-cockpit footage of what a thrust-vectored flat spin looks like from inside the cockpit.

Thanks
Vishnu

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Aug 2009 11:14

Are these the one flown to Moscow to test Brahmos Air Launched variant ?

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 25 Aug 2009 13:24

Austin wrote:Are these the one flown to Moscow to test Brahmos Air Launched variant ?

Austin, IMHO, what Vishnu meant by MKI was that the plane is the prototype of the MKI we're flying right now. They wouldn't change the camo just for testing brahmos or any other technologies for that matter.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Aug 2009 16:04

Vishnu wrote:. and the translator couldn't understand my questions ... I found Yuri's answers mismatched !

I can empathise with the experience. I once tried talking to a Russian at a meeting in which a good friend of mine claimed he could translate. I asked my (serious medicine related) question and my friend and the Russian spoke briefly (in Russian) and then my friend turns to me and tells me (with a grin) in Hindi "Bol raha hai ki tu ek bhenc**d hai". I will never know what the actual conversation was.

I burst out laughing and have no idea what the Russian guy thought.

Vishnu · Post by **Vishnu** » 25 Aug 2009 16:50

I couldnt for the life of me get my pilot Yuri to explain just how he initiated a flat spin (ie ... what control inputs) ... My Russian translator had no clue what a flat spin was ... Yuri kept going on about angle of attack ... but I never quite understood why a high angle of attack was required to initiate a flat spin in a horizontal plane (am sure BRfites would know)... anyway, its all there on tape ...

By the way ... the entire thrust vector experience kind of feels similar to landing a plane in a super-heavy cross wind on Microsoft FSX ... its like your ass has a mind of its own !!

Cheers ...