MRCA News and Discussion

[Mahesh_R]

Perhaps we could draw up a matrix with a comparative study of the various birds,their key components like radar,weaponry,range,costs,etc.,as well as the political preferences, so that we get a clearer picture to evaluate the rival bids.

If anyone can come up with a matrix that would be great.

I found one but not sure how much of this information is correct.

http://indiadefence.com/forum.htm

[avinash.rd]

Hi fellows,

Please check this. A very good article

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/ar ... July06.pdf


As per this article procurement cost for the Rafale is the lowest.

I guess Rafale is one of the favorite since it is a very good multirole fighter and it can carry a very wide range of weapon systems. It can also be operated from carriers.

[rohitvats]

Just saw the Omega Tanker take off from HAL. Shallow takeoff...left turn.....

Followed by two SuperBugs...again very shallow takeoff followed by tight turns towards the mothership.....steep climb.....forming a tight formation along......

This jingo is very very hapy.....

[avinash.rd]

rohitvats,

r u talking about super hornets??

[Shankar]

ofcourse -there is only one super bug in the world which looks and smells like a big too...ha ha

[Philip]

AESA radars are becoming a "must have" option for most of the contests on and for the forseeable future.With major deals like India,Brazil,etc. taking place,all major manufacturers are developing an AESA for their aircraft.What air combat capabilities the IAF wants out of this deal is the moot point.Is there any point in duplicating the capability of the SU-30MKI's LR BVR capability,or will just a medium range missile to take on Pak's AMRAAMs do? Close combat capability will be an important factor,as even the Israeli's lay greta emphasis on it,from experience, and retain guns/cannon on their fighters.Once an aircraft's missiles have been spent,and these days we have a variety of flares,towed decoys,EW,TVC also for violent missile evasive manoeuvres,etc.,to evade missiles,in any air battle,close combat will be a major factor.As one exoert put it some time ago,"if the SU-30 has to engage in close combat,it has lost the BVR battle."

The second role for the aircraft is that of strike and not only must the weaponry carried by it be meeting required capable of stand-off range, accuracy and lethality,but should have some stealth capability for survival too.Some time ago,in fact many moons ago,there was on BR a discussion of some stealth coatings developed for our Jags.I think that this is one requirement for which details will be classified and unavaiable in open info.An interesting fact revealed is that the US is NOT going to provide its allies who buy the JSF with the same frontal stealth specs which will be supplied for its own aircraft! Japan ,who want the F-22 Raptor (supposed to have four layers of stealth coatings) to take on China,are being denied the fighter,which has been touted as being close to $300 million per aircraft! It has threatened to buy a foreign fighter like the Typhoon.The US is trying to get it to buy the JSF instead,or the F-15 Silent Eagle,at around $100million+ with ehanced stealth.

Stealth features of the contestants will be very difficult to evaluate by us.There is also another factor at work.When the rivals are tested in their own environment,a manufacturer could use an aircraft full stealth or EW capability in is own airspace,sell us one with a lesser capability and say that our tropical environment degrades it! As long as the aircraft meets the minimum stealth/EW standards,we would have no way of knowing about this,unless the very same aircraft tested abroad is also immediately sent to India for evaluation without any alterations.

The evaluation of so man rival aircraft is going to be an arduous task and one that will be controversial.As one Indian military expert wrote,why on earth did we trawl the globe for almost every fighter available,from light single-engined ones like the Gripen to heavywieights like the Typhoon? How can one truly compare chalk with cheese?

[avinash.rd]

They want to see the best offer they can get. They are bargaining.

I would say go for Eurofighter or Rafale. Finish the deal.

1)EF2000 :- If u go for this, then u can have a best engine for LCA and it can also help in our indigenous MRCA development. EADS is also very good in missile technology. So this is a win-win situation.
OR
2)Rafale:- I feel we can have very good relationship with French since our weapon system needs especially airforce's match. We can have a joint MRCA development and manufacturing deals.

[avinash.rd]

Shankar,

IAF has chosen 30 top pilots for evaluating these air crafts. Lets wait for their verdict. Let's not criticize any aircraft. We might end up buying SH!!

[pralay]

The fighter which will contribute technology will win most probably.

[avinash.rd]

sameer_shelavale,

Your right. EF and Rafale are ready to do that.

[avinash.rd]

Hi All,

Please see below for the advantage of supercruise in a fighter

Advantages

Most military aircraft use afterburners (or reheats) to travel at supersonic speeds. Afterburners are inefficient compared to conventional jet engine operation due to the low pressures typically found in the exhaust section. Therefore an aircraft that can supercruise has generally greater endurance at supersonic speeds than one which cannot. Furthermore, without a requirement to carry such a large quantity of fuel, a supercruise-capable aircraft can have a more favorable fuel fraction, the proportion of the plane's overall mass which is devoted to fuel. Supercruise also increases the aircraft's stealth, as an afterburner plume reflects radar signals and creates a significant infra-red signature. [1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersonic_cruising

So, I believe a fighter with supercruise is a good bet

[Shankar]

AF has chosen 30 top pilots for evaluating these air crafts. Lets wait for their verdict. Let's not criticize any aircraft. We might end up buying SH!!

sure - we might end up buying super hornet and that is a matter of concern -with next round of nuke test around the corner -think what signing for F-19 will do to Indian air defense -remember LCA episode

[nrshah]

Suffice it to state that let us agree to disagree.

This attitude keeps the quality of this forum better than any other. Yes, let us agree to disagree.

Meanwhile, all those posts were not for Mig 35 but were about changing perceptions on what strategic partnership is all about.

I believe u will have to agree on following points:
1. Americans are not reliable
2. With Americans we can never imagine of having equal partnership on strategic projects as we have with Russia - Pakfa / MTA/Space/SSBN
3. Americans will never share technology with us. Remember they have refused to share codes / other TOT of JSF with UK which is one of their best / oldest / blood related partners, with relations extending for more than a century
4. With Americans we can always be sure of sanctions. Again, Obama put defense contract with even UK on hold.
5. With Americans we can always expect that our indigenous efforts will turn futile. Look at Australia/ Japan / Taiwan. I don’t thing anything stops them from developing their own equipments; they have capabilities and money too.
6. With Americans we can always expect intrusive EUMs
7. With Americans we will surrender our sovereignty. It has history of applying unprecedented level of pressure on its partner countries to act as per its whims and fancies.

On the other hand, I will agree with you on the following:
1. Russians have poor supply chain logistics
2. Delays in delivery
3. Subsequent price escalations
4. Last 2 decades of economic turmoil have kept them on back foot
5. We don't share as cordial relation with them as during Soviet times

U can add in the list if I have missed anything.


Ok, let’s devise a new approach to identify the aircraft which is most suited. Instead of comparing which aircraft / country, let us try to agree on the criteria along with weight age.

I would want an aircraft which fulfills the below mentioned criteria

Criteria for selection of MMRCA
Criteria Weightage
Category : Aircraft quality and specifications 30%
1 Meets IAF requirements
Category : Costs considerations 10%
1 Acquition Cost
2 Operating Cost
3 Cost of weapons
4 Upgradation Cost
5 Life cycle cost
Category : Infrastructural Issues 10%
1 Can be inducted very easily and perfected
2 Magnitude of infrastructure modifications
3 Interpolability between different bases
Category : Integrity of equipments 15%
1 No Restrictive EUMs
2 Sanction proof
3 No bugs in softwares
Category : Technological advancement 15%
1 Level of TOT especially in :
Radar incl codes
Engine
Others
2 Possibility of leavaging in other strategic systems like
Anti Ballastic missile system
SSBN / SSGN
Space
Co operation in MCA
Category : Political Mileage 20%

In case I miss any thing, please add and improve the list.

-Nitin

[NRao]

I believe u will have to agree on following points:
1. Americans are not reliable
................................

.......................

No I do not.

My basic argument is (and has been for about 10-15 years now) that Indians are THE problem.

which is why the Americans and Russians can use India.

which is why Pakis and Chinese do what they do to push India around.

This does NOT mean that India/ns should throw the Russians into teh toilet. The Soviets and Russians have helped, but I do NOT see that as a one way street - a dan, a gift of sorts. I believe that the Soviets had their own ulterior motives - just as the US has had, just as the Brits have had, just as anyone else has had.

HAD India been "stronger" ( ) it would not be the case.

And, I think India is much stronger today than 10 years ago. But needs to get stronger still. (BTW, as a FYI, I hate this stuff about outsourcing IT stuff to India.)

This is an Indian problem.

Sorry. Back to the thread.

[NRao]

Nitin,

WRT to MRCA list, here is my priorities:

1) As much technologies as possible without bending (forget breaking) AT ALL (I do not want to hear 5-10 years from now "We gave you this")
2) Whatever technologies are given should be paid for (in USD)
3) Whatever technologies are bought should be considered Indian - India can build out on them using internal or any other source to enhance them, without requiring permission from the vendors that supplied them
4) Countries or vendors who consider technologies as borderline - either WRT politics or economics - should NOT supply them
5) What ToT is provided should be complete


6) I would like the RFP to rule, including supplying the first 18 air crafts by 2013. India also needs to stick to the RFP - without exceptions
7) Country + vendor selected should sign off for ever


8 ) I would like the GoI to be a LOT more transparent - specially WRT the Rafale and F-16 incidents

9) Let the IAF drive. And, the IAF needs to be honest.

May what the IAF considers to be the best AC win.




On to the FGFA.

[dinesha]

"We are flying in three F-16s from Dubai to Bangalore Aug 31 for the month-long field trials. The fourth-generation advanced fighters are currently with the United Arab Emirates (UAE) Air Force. They will be flown by our test pilots along with US Air Force pilots," a senior Lockheed Martin official told IANS here.

http://www.samaylive.com/news/lockheed- ... 51788.html

[caesar]

Can two american made weapons be used against each other???? Ive heard that hezbollah tried to shoot an israeli F-16 way back in 1999 and an error message flashed on the stinger saying FRIENDLY AIRCRAFT.Can anyone throw a light on this????

[nachiket]

Can two american made weapons be used against each other???? Ive heard that hezbollah tried to shoot an israeli F-16 way back in 1999 and an error message flashed on the stinger saying FRIENDLY AIRCRAFT.Can anyone throw a light on this????

^^That's a cock and bull story.
First of all the stinger is an old missile which does not have a cool "Screen" on which messages can flash. It just vibrates when it locks on to a target.
Secondly, it is a Heat seeking missile. How the hell is an 80s era missile supposed to differentiate between the heat signatures of different aircraft from the ground?? Even modern heat seeking missiles don't have such capability AFAIK.

[NRao]

Can two american made weapons be used against each other?

Sometimes called friendly fire. Happened in A'sthan as recently as about 5 years ago.

[NRao]

A comment from livefist:

NJS said...

we have received two years( ordered in 2004 ) late for this 4 nos itself of mig29k. if india selects 126 nos in mmrca deals , i think first four mig-35 will be delivered to us by 2020.

[NRao]

Lockheed Martin flying in F-16s to Bangalore for IAF trials

Interesting:

Though the tender is for 126 aircraft, there is an option for an additional 50 percent, or 63 more aircraft.

I did not know that.

[nachiket]

Interesting:

Though the tender is for 126 aircraft, there is an option for an additional 50 percent, or 63 more aircraft.

I did not know that.

Highly unlikely that those options will get ordered, considering the fact that the 126 itself are going to cost ~$10 billion. Unless ofcourse we get the Mig very cheap.

[kit]

The only reason US is in this game is because of the popular thought that the nuklear (sic) deal made India a defacto nuclear power and that Washington is open to sharing technology and throw its weight behind India to be a member of the UN security council.None of this has happened and India is indeed likely to be pressured into signing CTBT ,FBT etc .The entire Indian intelligentsia is collectively made to look like fools by Madame and her PM.I dont think any US airplane should be there in the MRCA consideration. Whatever India has bought including the Poseidon and super Hercules are just waste of money that will be subject to the sanctions at every whim and fancy of successive American administrations.
And I dont think what is on offer from the US is in any way that technologically superior to other contenders to merit consideration on that grounds alone.
In short whatever discussion we have had here based on technological grounds is not valid, plain reason being Washington can and will pull the plug any moment, unless you are willing to lose your nuclear testicles.

[Kartik]

Super Hornet hot weather and dumb bombs trials in Jaisalmer successful. but note that its already only 38 deg C that the SH had to withstand, which is piddly compared to what even our own LCA and IJT had to withstand in Nagpur's searing heat. this will only get worse as winter approaches. anyway, next phase for the Super Hornet are the cold weather trials in Leh.

The F/A-18 Super Hornet continued its impressive Indian flight trials with another noteworthy performance, this time over the desert sands of Rajasthan.

On Wednesday, the Super Hornet impressed the Indian Air Force with the extreme accuracy of a medium altitude bomb drop near its Jaisalmer air base.

"The highest of the four drops was performed from a 13,000 foot level release with an unguided warhead with no inertial guidance system. The inert Mk-83 landed within 15 yards of the intended target, demonstrating the accuracy of the Super Hornet’s auto-release weapons systems," said Boeing pilot, Elliott "Hemo" Clemence, who had an Indian evaluation pilot watching from his cockpit’s back seat.

Live weapons testing, another crucial element in the rigorous Indian fighter competition won’t come until the third and final evaluation phase in the U.S. in February.

The Indian evaluation team also studied the Super Hornet’s ability to withstand the desert base’s 100F (38C) degree daytime temperatures. One F/A-18F jet was set out to bake in the blazing noon sun so that a record could be taken of the cockpit temperature as a gauge to pilot comfort and avionics cooling in the searing desert conditions.

[JaiS]

From Air Marshal Ashok K Goel's blog

MRCA – still a Challenge

[avinash.rd]

Hi Everybody,

I wonder why cant Su-35 enter into the competition now? It will cost as much as F-18 or EF2000. May be it is a heavy and an air superiority fighter. But It is also a true Multi Role Combat fighter. It looks deadly and intimidating.

[ArmenT]

x-posting from Indian Military Aviation thread
I would have put this as DDM if it hadn't been posted by Vishnu Som
India's first stealth fighter to fly in 4 months
How does this affect the MRCA selection then?

[avinash.rd]

nrshah,

If we go by ur points distribution, then, the fighter list will look like this based on their scores
Category : Aircraft quality and specifications 30%
1)EF2000 :- 30/30 :- The most advanced fighter in the competition
2)MIG-35 :- 25/30 :- Old but proven
3)F-18 :- 30/30 :- AECS RADAR
4)F-16 :- 25/30 :- AECS RADAR
5)RAFALE :- 25/30 :- true multirole
6)Grippen :- 25/30

Category : Costs considerations 10%
1)EF2000 :- 5/10
2)MIG-35 :- 10/10 :- Cost effective
3)F-18 :- 5/10
4)F-16 :- 10/10 :- Cost effective
5)RAFALE :- 5/10
6)Grippen :- 10/10 :- Cost effective

Category : Infrastructural Issues 10%
1)EF2000 :- 5/10
2)MIG-35 :- 10/10
3)F-18 :- 5/10
4)F-16 :- 5/10
5)RAFALE :- 10/10
6)Grippen :- 5/10

Category : Integrity of equipments 15%
1)EF2000 :- 10/15
2)MIG-35 :- 15/15
3)F-18 :- 10/15
4)F-16 :- 10/15
5)RAFALE :- 15/15
6)Grippen :- 10/15
Category : Technological advancement 15%
1)EF2000 :- 15/15 :- Because of Supercruise feature
2)MIG-35 :- 10/15
3)F-18 :- 10/15
4)F-16 :- 10/15
5)RAFALE :- 10/15
6)Grippen :- 15/15 :- Because of Supercruise feature

Category : Political Mileage 20%

1)EF2000 :- 15/20 :- Because of cost
2)MIG-35 :- 20/20 :- Because we are tied up in other important projects
3)F-18 :- 20/20 :- Nuclear deal or nuclear blackmail
4)F-16 :- 20/20 :- Nuclear deal or nuclear blackmail
5)RAFALE :- 20/20 :- They can help us in other areas and in nuclear technology
6)Grippen :- 10/20

Final Scores

1)EF2000 :- 80/100
2)MIG-35 :- 85/100
3)F-18 :- 80/100
4)F-16 :- 80/100
5)RAFALE :- 85/100
6)Grippen :- 75/100


Expecting lots and lots of comments

[srai]

Lockheed Martin flying in F-16s to Bangalore for IAF trials

Interesting:

Though the tender is for 126 aircraft, there is an option for an additional 50 percent, or 63 more aircraft.

I did not know that.

They had been saying from the start that there was an option for 60 aircrafts. This, I assume, would be for replacing either the 50+ Mirage-2000s or the 60+MiG-29s currently in service around 2022+ time frame.

[kit]

nrshah,

If we go by ur points distribution, then, the fighter list will look like this based on their scores

Category : Aircraft quality and specifications 30%
1)EF2000 :- 30/30 :- The most advanced fighter in the competition
2)MIG-35 :- 25/30 :- Old but proven
3)F-18 :- 30/30 :- AECS RADAR
4)F-16 :- 25/30 :- AECS RADAR
5)RAFALE :- 25/30 :- true multirole
6)Grippen :- 25/30

You might want to revise this section

[srai]

NRaoji I think the reason is not funds ...... bottomline ...... France is equally interested in the MICA series and doesn't care too much about the success/failure of meteor.

Look how much they have invested in ASMP-A's hypersonic successor. They have built a first-of-its-kind facility that can simulate mach 7.5 environments. One can argue that this hypersonic missile is meant to ensure the lethality of Frances air-arm of its nuclear triad. Hence the heavy investment. But they already have ASMP-A mach 2.5/3 500-600km alcm. Meteor should have been a priority.

It seems that France is very happy with the MICA for now. The answer most likely lies in what Jean_M said...."MICA's seeker is so good they are not thinking of meteor".

jmt

another point is that their MICA stocks are relatively new..they have enough shelf life in them to not be discarded for new hyper-expensive Meteors till 2015-18.

Look at it from the Adl'a point of view, their MICAs are adequate for their air to air threat perception as of now. thats the excuse that even UK and others used to slide the date for Meteor integration out to 2015 for the Typhoon, saying that their AMRAAMs and ASRAAMs are adequate for what they believe their current air threat is. they want the Meteor in-service around the time that the PAK-FA starts to enter service for the RuAF. the fact that Russians have not come up with any big leap in air-to-air weaponry contributes to this lack of funding for Meteor integration. the upgrades to the R-77 and R-73 are limited to some seeker upgrades and a little expansion in envelope and range. if there was a new missile with a significantly improved kinematics and range and end-game maneuvering and energy, the French and the other European partners would all rush to get the Meteor integrated to their respective platforms (Typhoon, Rafale, Gripen) and into service.

IAF's MRCA will only begin to be inducted at the earliest 2012-14 time frame. So Meteors integration in 2015 is not a big deal IMO.

[Shankar]

They had been saying from the start that there was an option for 60 aircrafts. This, I assume, would be for replacing either the 50+ Mirage-2000s or the 60+MiG-29s currently in service around 2022+ time frame

The option for 63+ aircraft was always there became more serious when MRCA evaluation process streched beyond imagination-now i think who ever gets it will get an order for 200 odd air craft 13-15 billion US -not bad at all

[Drevin]

IAF's MRCA will only begin to be inducted at the earliest 2012-14 time frame. So Meteors integration in 2015 is not a big deal IMO.

True, but there are 6 planes in the competition. Three of them won't be using meteor(F16, F18 and Mig35). So we will be disadvantaged when making a final decision.

[avinash.rd]

kit,
can u show me the way here?

[avinash.rd]

All,

Any guesses, which fighter will bring the best weapon systems?? I believe, the vendors has to provide weapon systems also along with the fighter. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Philip]

I forsee that the moment the stealth fighter begins trials and the IAF see the quantum advance in the technology when compared with some of the MMRCA contenders,if decisionmaking is delayed,will begin to lose interest in it just as they almost lost interest with the LCA.However,the factor of declining numbers (crucial) and the China factor,a new development,where China has started making over 30 intrusions within just one month alone and has started even helo intrusions,demand that the IAF quickly equips itself with a potent MMRCA.The aircraft will have to supplement the SU-30MKI to deal with (China also has Flankers Su-30MKK of an inferior capability) the Chinese air force that has large numbers of modern new aicraft.The China factor might tilt the IAF's eagerness to acquire a western fighter,whose technology is not possessed by China,unlike its knowledge of the Flanker and Fulcrum (engine only).

The ideal solution then would be buying a smaller quantity of MIG-35s,60-80,eventually to replace al MIG-29s being upgraded to make up numbers of a type easiest to assimilate, and buy 120+ Rafales or Typhoons,new 4+gen tech. birds,whichever is the most attractive from the parameters suggested.This way we will be able to have both numbers and technology unavailable to the Chinese which will give us the added advantage.From the heightened Chinese activity on our borders,they seem to be doing a series of recce ops to see where our defences are weakest and where they can make a quick invasion,hold territory in a position advantageous to them from the logistic point of view,and from where we will find it very difficult to evict,thus legitimising their claim on Indian territory.The international powers will at lightning speed rush to stop the conflict,not bothered about India's interests because of their huge investments in China and the amount of US "paper" that China possesses.

How swiftly we can conclude the MMRCA deal is the big Q.If the testing is going to end only sometime late next year,the earliest that the award will be announced is 2011 and two years for the first fighters to arrive,unless it is the Rafale,frome existing French stock.Since the MIG-29K production line is open for the IN,with about 40+ to be ordered ,the same production line could be used for building MIG-35s which share about 80-85% of the components of the MIG-29.This way the MIG-35 could also be acquired swiftly.

[nrshah]

If we go by Ur points distribution, then, the fighter list will look like this based on their scores
Category : Aircraft quality and specifications 30%
1)EF2000 :- 30/30 : 30/30
2)MIG-35 :- 25/30 :- 25/30
3)F-18 :- 30/30 :- 25/30 Not the best of multi role especially AOA
4)F-16 :- 25/30 :-25/30
5)RAFALE :- 25/30 :- 30/30(True Omni role; AESA; Higher thrust engine; Spectra virtual stealth)
6)Grippen :- 25/30 :- 20/30(Offers nothing more than LCA Mk2 with higher payload;more pylons etc)

Category : Costs considerations 10%
1)EF2000 :- 5/10 :- 5/10
2)MIG-35 :- 10/10 :- 10/10
3)F-18 :- 5/10 :- 5/10 Based on details on Australian Order
4)F-16 :- 10/10 :- 10/10
5)RAFALE :- 5/10 :- 8/10
6)Grippen :- 10/10 :- 10/10

Category : Infrastructural Issues 10%
1)EF2000 :- 5/10 - 5/10
2)MIG-35 :- 10/10 -10/10
3)F-18 :- 5/10 - 5/10
4)F-16 :- 5/10 - 5/10
5)RAFALE :- 10/10 - 10/10
6)Grippen :- 5/10 - 5/10

Category : Integrity of equipments 15%
1)EF2000 :- 10/15 - 10/15 Incl UK which is a clown of US
2)MIG-35 :- 15/15 - 15/15
3)F-18 :- 10/15 - 5/15
4)F-16 :- 10/15 - 5/15
5)RAFALE :- 15/15 - 15/15 based on experience
6)Grippen :- 10/15 - 10/15- American Engine

Category : Technological advancement 15%
1)EF2000 :- 15/15 - 10/15 - No significant collaboration in other area
2) Mig 35 :- 10/15 - 15/15 - Co operation ranging from SSBN / PAk FA / Civil Nuke / MTA / Missiles
3)F-18 :- 10/15 - 0/15 - We only buy without any co operation / No major TOT in engine / radar etc
4)F-16 :- 10/15 - 0/15 - We only buy without any co operation / No major TOT in engine / radar etc
5)RAFALE :- 10/15 - 12/15 Cooperation in BMD/missiles/ full TOT includ source codes / co operation in kaveri
6)Grippen :- 15/15 - 8/15 - No significant collaboration in other area/ Besides no engine/radar of own

Category : Political Mileage 20%

1)EF2000 :- 15/20 :- 15/20
2)MIG-35 :- 20/20 :- 20/20
3)F-18 :- 20/20 :- 20/20
4)F-16 :- 20/20 :- 20/20
5)RAFALE :- 20/20 :- 20/20
6)Grippen :- 10/20 - 5/20 - No speech in international forum etc

Final Scores

1)EF2000 :- 80/100 - 75/100
]2)MIG-35 :- 85/100 - 95/100
3)F-18 :- 80/100 -60/100
4)F-16 :- 80/100 - 65/100
5)RAFALE :- 85/100 - 95/100
6)Grippen :- 75/100 - 58/100

second set of scores is based on my knowledge, beliefs and assumptions

- Nitin

[dorai]

As usual anyone who writes Gripen as "Grippen" doesn't really know at all what he is talking about.

[nrshah]

As usual anyone who writes Gripen as "Grippen" doesn't really know at all what he is talking about.

Would request you to enlighten us on what GRIPEN NG is; for open sources do not give any impression of it being equivalent to other contenders.

-Nitin

[nrshah]

We all discussed a lot on Pok II failure on a dedicated thread.

But I would like to understand the effect of this development on MMRCA more specifically on the tender of American companies and SAAB which uses American engine.

I hope we all agree that MMRCA cannot be evaluated independent of this development.

-Nitin