A look back at the partition

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samuel
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by samuel »

This a note from the time which may support some of the statements made today.
This one was made in 1939

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... -1,00.html
...
Jinnah's own life has been a series of coat-turnings. He was born a Hindu, became a Moslem. He began his public life as an ardent Nationalist, later developed into a rank communalist (in favor of local elections according to religious majorities). Once a stanch supporter of the Indian National Congress party (for independence), he later became soul & body of the All-India Moslem League (for Moslems), of which he is permanent president. Tall, slim, aquiline of feature and grey of hair, an immaculate dresser, an adroit lawyer, reserved yet with plenty of charm behind the tap when he chooses to turn it on, he has the enthusiasm of a youngster at 63, and the air of a queen's courtier in law courts.

Moslem Jinnah claims that he is a patriot. Close to his heart, he says, is Indian freedom from Britain. And yet his League was the one important political group to endorse the British White Paper of last month deferring dominion status until after the war. His reasons are partly political, partly religious. He is a minority-leader, who wants both to curry favor with Britain and to avoid a "freedom" in which Moslems are bound to worse enemies than the British.

Last week Mohandas Gandhi showed that he was determined to go ahead in his anti-British campaign without Moslem Jinnah's support. He authorized a statement which even the bitterest Moslem would think reasonable: "If Britain fights for the maintenance of democracy, she must necessarily end imperialism in her own possessions and establish full democracy in India."
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by samuel »

Jinnah's 14 points
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Points_of_Jinnah
1. The form of the future constitution should be federal with the residuary powers vested in the provinces.
< no, thanks>
2. A uniform measure of autonomy shall be granted to all provinces.
3. All legislatures in the country and other elected bodies shall be constituted on the definite principle of adequate and effective representation of minorities in every province without reducing the majority in any province to a minority or even equality.
<yes, we've been asking this since 47, but your country erased minorities>
4. In the Central Legislature, Muslim representation shall not be less than one third.
<f*ck off>
5. Representation of communal groups shall continue to be by means of separate electorate as at present, provided it shall be open to any community at any time to abandon its separate electorate in favor of a joint electorate.
<no>
6. Any territorial distribution that might at any time be necessary shall not in any way affect the Muslim majority in the Punjab, Bengal and the North West Frontier Province.
<et tu?>
7. Full religious liberty, i.e. liberty of belief, worship and observance, propaganda, association and education, shall be guaranteed to all communities.
<yeah, you preach, we practice>
8. No bill or any resolution or any part thereof shall be passed in any legislature or any other elected body if three-fourth of the members of any community in that particular body oppose such a bill resolution or part thereof on the ground that it would be injurious to the interests of that community or in the alternative, such other method is devised as may be found feasible and practicable to deal with such cases.

9. Sindh should be separated from the Bombay Presidency.
<ok>
10. Reforms should be introduced in the North West Frontier Province (NWFP) and Baluchistan on the same footing as in the other provinces.
<are the pakis listening?>
11. Provision should be made in the constitution giving Muslims an adequate share, along with the other Indians, in all the services of the state and in local self-governing bodies having due regard to the requirements of efficiency.

12. The constitution should embody adequate safeguards for the protection of Muslim culture and for the protection and promotion of Muslim education, language, religion, personal laws and Muslim charitable institution and for their due share in the grants-in-aid given by the state and by local self-governing bodies.
13. No cabinet, either central or provincial, should be formed without there being a proportion of at least one-third Muslim ministers.
14. No change shall be made in the constitution by the Central Legislature except with the concurrence of the State's contribution of the Indian Federation.
Last edited by samuel on 28 Aug 2009 21:32, edited 1 time in total.
ramana
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by ramana »

I think we need to write a BRF book on Partition.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by samuel »

I concur.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by samuel »

The case for Pakstan (typo the first time it was written)
CR Ali
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Now_or_Ne ... Forever%3F
After reading this, can anyone explain why we still have 370?
But what I don't understand is; people like Jinnah and Ali were all about minority protection, then wtf happened there. Names, I want names; who did that?
At this solemn hour in the history of India, when British and Indian statesmen are laying the foundations of a Federal Constitution for that land, we address this appeal to you, in the name of our common heritage, on behalf of our thirty million Muslim brethren who live in PAKSTAN [sic] - by which we mean the five Northern units of India, viz.: Punjab, North-West Frontier Province (Afghan Province), Kashmir, Sind and Baluchistan - for your sympathy and support in our grim and fateful struggle against political crucifixion and complete annihilation.

Our brave but voiceless nation is being sacrificed on the altar of Hindu Nationalism not only by the non-Muslims, but to the lasting disgrace of Islam, by our own so-called leaders, with reckless disregard to our future and in utter contempt of the teachings of history. The Indian Muslim Delegation at the Round Table Conference have committed an inexcusable and prodigious blunder. They have submitted, in the name of Hindu Nationalism, to the perpetual subjection of the ill-starred Muslim nation. These leaders have already agreed, without any protest or demur and without any reservation, to a Constitution based on the principle of an All-India Federation. This, in essence, amounts to nothing less than signing the death-warrant of Islam and its future in India. In doing so, they have taken shelter behind the so-called Mandate from the community.

But they forgot that that suicidal Mandate was framed and formulated by their own hands. That Mandate was not the Mandate of the Muslims of India. Nations never give Mandates to their representatives to barter away their very souls; and men of conscience never accept such self-annihilating Mandates, if given - much less execute them. At a time of crisis of this magnitude, the foremost duty of saving statesmanship is to give a fair, firm and fearless lead, which, alas, has been persistently denied to eighty millions of our co-religionists in India by our leaders during the last seventy-five years. These have been the years of false issues, of lost opportunities and of utter blindness to the most essential and urgent needs of the Muslim interests. Their policy has throughout been nerveless in action and subservient in attitude. They have all along been paralysed with fear and doubt, and have deliberately, time and again, sacrificed their political principles for the sake of opportunism and expediency. To do so even at this momentous juncture of Bedlam. It is idle for us not to look this tragic truth in the face. The tighter we shut our eyes, the harder the truth will hit us.

At this critical moment, when this tragedy is being enacted, permit us to appeal to you for your practical sympathy and active support for the demand of a separate Federation - a matter of life and death for the Muslims of India - as outlined and explained below.

India, constituted as it is at the present moment, is not the name of one single country; nor the home of one single nation. It is, in fact, the designation of a State created for the first time in history, by the British. It includes peoples who have never previously formed part of India at any period in its history; but who have, on the other hand, from the dawn of history till the advent of the British, possessed and retained distinct nationalities of their own.

In the five Northern Provinces of India, out of a total population of about forty millions, we, the Muslims, contribute about 30 millions. Our religion, culture, history, tradition, economic system, laws of inheritance, succession and marriage are basically and fundamentally different from those of the people living in the rest of India. The ideals which move our thirty million brethren-in-faith living in these provinces to make the highest sacrifices are fundamentally different from those which inspire the Hindus. These differences are not confined to the broad basic principles - far from it. They extend to the minutest details of our lives. We do not inter-dine; we do not inter-marry. Our national customs, calendars, even our diet and dress are different.

It is preposterous to compare, as some superficial observers do, the differences between Muslims and Hindus with those between Roman Catholics and Protestants. Both the Catholics and Protestants are part and parcel of one religious system - Christianity; while the Hindus and Muslims are the followers of two essentially and fundamentally different religious systems. Religion in the case of Muslims and Hindus is not a matter of private opinion as it is in the case of Christians; but on the other hand constitutes a Civic Church which lays down a code of conduct to be observed by their adherents from birth to death.

If we, the Muslims of Pakstan, with our distinct marks of nationality, are deluded into the proposed Indian Federation by friends or foes, we are reduced to a minority of one to four. It is this which sounds the death-knell of the Muslim nation in India for ever. To realise the full magnitude of this impending catastrophe, let us remind you that we thirty millions constitute about one-tenth of whole Muslim world. The total area of the five units comprising PAKSTAN, which are our homelands, is four times that of Italy, three times that of Germany and twice that of France; and our population seven times that of the Commonwealth of Australia, four times that of the Dominion of Canada, twice that of Spain, and equal to France and Italy considered individually.

These are facts - hard facts and realities - which we challenge anybody to contradict. It is on the basis of these facts that we make bold to assert without the least fear of contradiction that we, Muslims of PAKSTAN, do possess a separate and distinct nationality from the rest of India, where the Hindu nation lives and has every right to live. We, therefore, deserve and must demand the recognition of a separate national status by the grant of a separate Federal Constitution from the rest of India.

In addressing this appeal to the Muslims of India, we are also addressing it to the two other great interests - British and Hindu - involved in the settlement of India's future. They must understand that in our conviction our body and soul are at stake. Our very being and well-being depends upon it. For our five great Northern states to join an All-India Federation would be disastrous, not only to ourselves, but to every other race and interest in India, including the British and the Hindu.

This is more especially true when there is just and reasonable alternative to the proposed settlement, which will lay the foundations of a peaceful future for this great continent; and should certainly allow of the highest development of each of these two peoples without one being subject to another. This alternative is a separate Federation of these five predominantly (sic) Muslim units - Punjab, Afgania (part of NWFP), Kashmir, Sind and Baluchistan.

The Muslim Federation of North-West India would provide the bulwark of a buffer state against any invasion either of ideas or arms from outside. The creation of such a Federation would not materially disturb the ratio of the Muslim and Hindu population in the rest of India. It is wholly to the interest of British and Hindu statesmanship to have an ally a free, powerful and contented Muslim nation having a similar but separate Constitution to that which is being enacted for the rest of India. Nothing but a separate Federation of homelands would satisfy us.

This demand is basically different from the suggestion put forward by Doctor Mohammed Iqbal in his Presidential address to the All-India Muslim League in 1930. While he proposed the amalgamation of the provinces into a single state forming a unit of the All-India Federation, we propose that these Provinces should have a separate Federation of their own. There can be no peace and tranquility in the land if we, the Muslims, are duped into a Hindu-dominated Federation where we cannot be the masters of our own destiny and captains of our own souls.

Do the safeguards provided for in the Constitution give us any scope to work for our salvation along our own lines? Not a bit. Safeguard is the magic word which holds our leaders spellbound, and has dulled their consciences. In the ecstasy of their hallucinations they think that the pills of safeguards can cure nation-annihilating earthquakes. Safeguards asked for by these leaders and agreed to by the makers of the Constitution can never be a substitute for the loss of separate nationality. We, the Muslims, shall have to fight the course of suicidal insanity to death.

What safeguards can be devised to prevent our minority of one in four in an All-India Federation from being sacrificed on every vital issue to the aims and interests of the majority race, which differs from us in every essential of individual and corporate life? What safeguards can prevent the catastrophe of the Muslim nation smarting and suffering eternally at the frustration of its every social and religious ideal? What safeguards can compensate our nation awakened to its national conscious for the destruction of its distinct national status? However effective and extensive the safeguards may be, the vital organs and proud symbols of our national life, such as army and navy, foreign relations, trade and commerce, communications, posts and telegraphs, taxation and customs, will not be under our control, but will be in the hands of a Federal Government, which is bound to be overwhelmingly Hindu. With all this, how can we, the Muslims, achieve any of our ideals if those ideals conflict - conflict as they must - with the ideals of Hindus?

The history of the last century, in this respect, is full of unforgettable lessons for us. Even one who runs may read them. To take just one instance. Despite all these safeguards and guarantees we have enjoyed in the past, the very name of our national language - URDU, even now the lingua franca of that great continent - has been wiped out of the list of Indian languages. We have just to open the latest census report to verify it. This by itself is a tragic fall. Are we fated to fall farther? But that too is dust in the scales by comparison with the tremendous national issues involving our whole future as a nation and a power not only India but also in the whole of Asia.

In the face of these incontrovertible facts, we are entitled to ask for what purpose we are being asked to make the supreme sacrifice of surrendering our nationality and submitting ourselves and our posterity to Non-Muslim domination? What good is likely to accrue to Islam and Muslims by going into the Federation is a thing which passes our understanding. Are we to be crucified just to save the faces of our leaders or to bolster up the preposterous that India can be a single nation? Is it with a view to achieve a compromise at all costs, or is it to support the illusion that Hindu nationalism is working in the interests of Muslims as well as Hindus? Irony is flattered to death by a mental muddle of such a nature and on such a scale. We have suffered in the past without a murmur and faced dangers without demur. The one thing we would never suffer is our own strangulation. We will not crucify ourselves upon the cross of Hindu nationalism in order to make a Hindu-holiday.

May we be permitted to ask of all those statesmen - Muslim or British or Hindu - supporting the Federal Constitution, if it is really desirable to make our nation sacrifice all that Islam has given us during the last fourteen hundred years to make India a nation? Does humanity really stand to gain by this stupendous sacrifice? We dare say that still in Islam the ancient fire glows and promises much for the future, if only the leaders would let it live. Whilst in Europe, excluding Russia, in about the same area as that of India and with about the same population, there live and prosper as many as twenty-six nations, with one and the same religion, civilisation and economic system, surely it is not only possible but highly desirable for two fundamentally different and distinct nations, i.e. Muslim and Hindu, to live as friendly neighbours in peace and prosperity in that vast continent. What bitter irony is it that our leaders have not the courage to stand up and demand the minimum for our political salvation.

We are face to face with a first-rate tragedy, the like of which has not been seen in the long and eventful history of Islam. It is not the question of a sect or of a community going down; but it is the supreme problem which affects the destiny of the whole of Islam and the millions of human beings who, till quite recently, were the custodians of the glory of Islam in India and the defenders of its frontiers. We have a still greater future before us, if only our soul can be saved from the perpetual bondage of slavery forged in an All-India Federation. Let us make no mistake about it. The issue is now or never. Either we live or perish for ever. The future is ours only if we live up to our faith. It does not lie in the lap of the gods, but it rests in our own hands. We can make or mar it. The history of the last century is full of open warnings, and they are as plain as were ever given to any nation. Shall it be said of us that we ignored all these warnings and allowed our ancient heritage to perish in our hands?

Rahmat Ali (Choudhary).
Mohd Aslam Khan (Khattak). President, Khyber Union.
Sheikh Mohd Sadiq (Sahibzada).
Inayat Ullah Khan (of Charsaddah). Secretary, Khyber Union
Prem
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by Prem »

Can we add lost land recovery chapter in the book?
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by ramana »

You mean de-Partition?
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Re: lost land

Post by Prem »

Departition of land not people who should be sent packing to their imaginary ancestral land in Arabia , Persia ,Central Asia or deep under India Ocean. We should not loose the sight of the fact that per their own admission majority Pakistanis are alien to the land they occupy now and the land belongs to us Indians. This need to be passed on to every coming generation so one day they recover the territory in the name of Hindustan. May be long shot but it should not fade away from our consciousness.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by Sanku »

Abhi_G wrote:some amount of pragmatism has also played its part.
Its not pragmatism, the real analysis has been forcibly turned off. We can see it here too. When it starts going to the roots. Wham...

We cant look at the truth in the eye. Its too difficult and we are not ready and its only meaningful repercussion is unacceptable.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by enqyoob »

When it starts going to the roots. Wham...
This usually happens when one sticks one's head in the sewer and looks upstream - at the facts, right in the eye. :mrgreen:
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by Sanku »

Anonomus wrote:And far less than half of the Muslims in India went to Pakistan - which means that the vast majority said :P :P to Jinnah and the rest of his hate-mongering genocidal Edited. Many, probably most, of the people in the lands "awarded" to Pakistan did not have the option of escaping to India, certainly I cannot imagine many Muslims feeling confident enough in 1947 to come over to India through Punjab or Bihar. So it is fair to conclude that the majority of Indian Muslims cast their lot with the rest of us SDREs, and some of the best of Indian citizens today are devout Muslims.
Wow so its fair to ASSUME that many nay most people were not able to come to India, yet it is IMPOSSIBLE to even think that a lot of people here wanted to go there but could not since they were also held up due to same reasons as quoted above?

Or because they were too poor?

Or because they thought that they could believe in something else and continue living some where else (just like many Sikhs and Hindu's tried in Pakistan) and unlike some who believed in common India and were chased out there were ZEROwho did believe in two nation India but stayed on where ever they were.

WOW WOW and WOW

What induces such logical thinking birathers. My scotch on the rocks does not measure up -- please help with the bigger better stuff?

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

-------

Edited RayC apologies, the quotation came out due to error in my editing.
Last edited by Sanku on 29 Aug 2009 20:28, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by Sanku »

narayanan wrote:
When it starts going to the roots. Wham...
This usually happens when one sticks one's head in the sewer and looks upstream - at the facts, right in the eye. :mrgreen:
Such incisive logic N, it could only come from you!
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by svinayak »

ramana wrote:I think we need to write a BRF book on Partition.
Why not each person write a one pager of the area of Partition he is most familiar with the reference.
Then we collect it and create an ebook to be published

SInce each person will focus on his part alone we can divide this book into a joint effort
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by suryag »

Dont know if this has been posted already

Partition, Aurobindo, and the truth
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by brihaspati »

In political history, any regime in power over a group can claim "strict" neutrality and unbiasedness over conflicting claims. For example, the first GOI after Independence had a similar stance as regards communities, and Suhrawardy adopted similar posturings after the Calcutta riots. Do not rely on what powers that be actually shout about their claimed neutrality - when forced to take action, they do take action in favour of one claim at the cost of the other. It is in their actual action at suppressing one group and allowing another group to flourish or persist that the real affiliations of the regime comes out.

For example there will be no ovious statement from JLN that he was biased against Bengalis and favoured Punjabis. In speeches after speeches and harangues (its tempting to put his speeches here and test for hyper-ventilation of his knowledge!) he claims strict unbiasedness and equal treatment of all "Indians". But then as shown in many posts here, Bengal was not treated the same in terms of compensation compared to Punjab.

This test of leadership or groups in power is always effective. Do not be simply be taken in by their claims of neutrality and unbiasedness, look at what action they take against which group - that brings out their real affiliations and loyalties. It remains true of Partition, and even now in any situation where such posturings are made.

In all the leadup to the Partition, Congress was claiming uniasedness and equal treatment with regards to the "Muslim", but they never took any step to integrate the Muslim populations directly without trying to rely on the Muslim elite and theologians. In fact what they did was even worse, they supported "Islamist" projects and acknowledged separate idenity claims of the Islamic theologians - starting from the Kihilafat movement. If Jinnah needed his excuse, Congress was lavish in providing them.

As for Bengali "pragmatism", the penomenon is not an open book exam. Most of the experiences being quoted here, are of relatively well-to-do Hindu Benaglis from East Bengal, most if not all of whom had pre-existing famileal and geneological networks in the west. In spite of that, yes, feelings still run deep but not expressed. On top of that a very natural process of avoidance has also taken place. The Marxists used their theory of "class-struggle" to self-delude themselves as otherwise the sheer reality of sadistic brutality of yet-to-be-formed-and-never-seen-before-Pakistan (as no violence can be tagged here to Abrahamic faiths) by yet-to-be-Pakistanis could trip most of them into mental asylums. At least one prominent communist I knew who had taken part in Jalalabad-action, said to me that he privately holds on to this idea as otherwise it will be inasnity for him.

Also for real memories of trauma, which is difficult to ever find its way into mainstream highly fashionable case-studies of "memories" - people interested can try out the less-economically fortunate Namashudras and Rajbangshis of North Bengal, who had been forced out of their lands in now-BD. Their trauma has been kept alive by strictly neutral and unbiased successive governments. Our regimes have been paranoid in ruthlessly suppressing even memories of trauma if those memories do not come from the Abrahamic. This is why it appears absent from the Bengali public discourse, and many would not open up easily if they fear that their statements could mark them out as "anti-communist" and "Hindu fascist".
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by Sanku »

brihaspati wrote: Our regimes have been paranoid in ruthlessly suppressing even memories of trauma if those memories do not come from the Abrahamic.
Forget outside even the very very very accepting to discussion BRF (and this is no caustic sarcasm) stops at some levels.

If this is on BRF> what would be outside? Lajja?

Do we really even need to ask why the feelings don't come out? Who wants to be in an Indian jail for merely looking for sympathy about what tortures have happened back home?

And then we wonder why there is no compact between the people and the GoI. I guess some one didnt ask that to Kashmiri Pandits when even BJP ditched them.

Or do we need to now ask why Kashmiri Pandits dont show this pain and trauma? I am sure in 10 years some one will be asking that as well.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by RayC »

Partition has been real traumatic for all.

No class of society has been spared!!

This very thread after so many years gone past when we have accepted fate, rekindled memories, anger and anguish!
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by Sanku »

suryag wrote:Dont know if this has been posted already

Partition, Aurobindo, and the truth
Thanks... perhaps we can now all pounce on Shri Aurobindo as Jinaah loving traitor too.
It is clear that India missed the boat in 1942. Later, bitterness increased and positions hardened, but unfortunately when Sri Aurobindo had pointed out the golden opportunity, Gandhi, Nehru and other great Congress (as well as the Hindu Mahasabha) leaders were not ready to listen.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by samuel »

In my mind it is a big mistake to think of partition as a mere 1945+ construct. The idea of partition was clearly visible at least since 1906, but it rose with Jinnah. Somebody did the ground work for him in the Morley-Minto world, which set the precedent for all things subsequent. And Jinnah really started towards it earnestly by the 1930s.

In a certain sense, at least from the islamist viewpoint, and I quote this in an earlier post, Britain conquered lands that were Mughal, and were therefore seen as genuine rulers. The Hindus they had already conquered and thus saw no reason to be subjugated to a Hindu India again. Not in the least when Hindus had not conquered them (Sikhs and Marathas say a different story, nevertheless). They say, we are different, we have not been ruled by you, we don't see how we can be with you, why the f*ck should we be a part of you?

Against this argument all discussions of bhaichara is bogus bullsh*t. What a sorry line to take. Against this argument, "it's ok, you were ruled by muslims, get ruled again" is what is known as giving up. Against this, "die where you are" is morally wrong having led the nation to that point of independence. Die on the cusp of independence, what?

Hindustan's claim is to the land. Its promise is to all people within its land; of protection through constitution and that is all there is to it. Hindustan's failing in 1947 is the inability to reassert its writ over its lands and people, Hindu or Muslim, and in this endeavor both the Mahatma and Nehru fell flat.

The actual holocaust itself was the perpetration of islamist elements mixed with the local goonda and power monger. This combine propped Jinnah and formed the bulwark of the Muslim League during partition. Read about Jinnah; the guy was on a power trip and was shall we say impressionable. He was repeatedly dissed by Nehru, who is the most intransigent (or shall I saw dumb "only farsighted") chacha I've known.

Irrespectively, these culprits remain nameless even today and their lineage and antecedents going through madrassas, barelvi or whatever, needs to be exposed. For this threat remains to India today. This threat needs to be exposed so the good, integrated citizens of India of whatever persuasion are in no doubt that India is above all. They are who we need to identify, naming names. Who was instigating the local goondas in Lahore? Who was supplying the money? Where were all the low and mid level leaders coming from?

S
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by Sanku »

Excellent post Samuel -- this is precisely the sense I get from JS book too.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by enqyoob »

yet it is IMPOSSIBLE to even think that a lot of people here wanted to go there but could not since they were also held up due to same reasons as quoted above?
Not at all. In fact there were many, say, from faraway Kerala, who decided that Pakistan was their hope, and so left Muslim-majority districts in Kerala and went to Pakistan. These were not rich people. Even today there are, I am sure, many in UP (where someone here claimed that proper ethnic cleansing had ensured total loyalty among the survivors) who are quite anti-India and pro-Pakistan. I am sure, thousands in Delhi and Mumbai. And in Bengalooru and in Malappuram. And then there are many anti-Indians in Chennai and Madurai and Thanjavur as well.

I am sure there were many people among the many millions inside India who "believed in the two-nation theory". In fact I may also "believe in the two-nation theory", since I hold that India is well rid of Pakistan. Its like having a septic tank quite separate from the house. Besides, without a Pakistan, what would the BENIS dhaga be, I ask you?

For that matter, there may be hundreds of thousands of pucca People of One Community, highest of high castes who believe that India was better off under British Rule. And those who rushed out to take courses in Mandarin in 1962 to get ahead and become the Party Apparatchiks under the new Chinese Colonial Government.

But my concept of a civilized nation does not ASSUME that people of a certain religion or place of birth or appearance automatically are anti-national. Instead it respects their right to believe that they want to believe, as long as they respect the law, and don't infringe on the rights of others. Do they harbor hatred against others? Maybe, like some postors here clearly do, but unless I see them exhibiting signs of that, I don't feel like kicking them out. And when they do, so do I (I mean feel like kicking them out).

There is no civilization otherwise - it becomes a One Nation Theory. All Pakistan. "PURE" Islamists, or "PURE" Hinduists, same mentality. And I don't want to be part of a Pakistan.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by Sanku »

narayanan wrote:
yet it is IMPOSSIBLE to even think that a lot of people here wanted to go there but could not since they were also held up due to same reasons as quoted above?
I am sure there were many people among the many millions inside India who "believed in the two-nation theory".
Thank you, my point was this and this alone. There are millions inside this country (including Hindu's like before 47) who believed in the two nation theory.

And precisely because of these people (both Hindu and otherwise) did we have a partition.
For that matter, there may be hundreds of thousands of pucca People of One Community, highest of high castes who believe that India was better off under British Rule.
Indeed, other wise why do we labour under the DIE problem and then fall over our self in congratulating a Prime Minister who goes and says that the British rule was good for India.
Do they harbor hatred against others? Maybe, like some postors here clearly do, but unless I see them exhibiting signs of that, I don't feel like kicking them out. And when they do, so do I (I mean feel like kicking them out).
Ah yes, surely rule of law and all that. Absolutely old boy, we must know how to make the poach, what?

Did any one ask for kicking out all those of a particular community? Umm let me recall Yes as a matter of fact a lot of those who believed in the two nation theory did before 47 (and after 47)

Did I or those WHO do not believe in two nation theory advocate kicking anyone out? Nopes no I didnt since there is no nation I can kick them out too, you see, NO partition == no nation to kick out? Simble onlee.

-------------

What did I say --> We in India REFUSE to discuss the real issue behind the partition, the real trauma and the real reasons. Those exist INSIDE INDIA today AS WELL.

All the present "rule of law and order" reminds me of Chacha ji's insistence pre 47 that all India was solidly behind him and there was no one supporting Muslim league except the upper class enemies of the socialist utopia of Hindustan, despite Congress getting ZERO vote share in Muslim seats and many other such facts on the ground.

Opium smoke is under rated -- nothing beats the Indic philosophizer to really clear the mind.
Last edited by Sanku on 29 Aug 2009 01:12, edited 1 time in total.
sanjaychoudhry
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by sanjaychoudhry »

Read about Jinnah; the guy was on a power trip and was shall we say impressionable. He was repeatedly dissed by Nehru, who is the most intransigent (or shall I saw dumb "only farsighted") chacha I've known.
In early thirties, Jinnah had left India and settled for good in London, content only to practise law and taking least interest in poltics. Nehru during this time made an arrogant comment at a cocktail party in Bombay that "Jinnah is finished." This comment reached Jinnah's ears in London. He felt insulted and furious. He packed his bags immediately for India to show Nehru whether he was finished or not in India's politics. The rest is history. Nehru was a loose cannon who infuriated Patel too many times with his indiscreet comments and loose talk. If not for Gandhi's blind support, Nehru would have been weeded out from the national scene long ago.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by enqyoob »

Nopes no I didnt since there is no nation I can kick them out too, you see, NO partition == no nation to kick out? Simble onlee.
Not at all. The Pakis also did not want to kick out most people - they just wanted to kill them and loot their posessions. Likewise, there are many in India (and a few left on this forum) who advocate / wish for genocide inside India against whomever they think they can get away with murdering and looting. I find that to be something that should be shown absolutely no tolerance, and since there IS a wide world outside BRF where they can go sprout their hatred, I invite them to do so (I mean go), and sometimes help them along.
Despite Congress getting ZERO votes in Muslim seats
Well, duh! Since when is it illegal to vote against Congress? Maybe the people there were really RSS, but did not have a candidate on the list when it came out?
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by Sanku »

narayanan wrote:
Nopes no I didnt since there is no nation I can kick them out too, you see, NO partition == no nation to kick out? Simble onlee.
Not at all. The Pakis also did not want to kick out most people - they just wanted to kill them and loot their posessions. Likewise, there are many in India (and a few left on this forum) who advocate / wish for genocide inside India against whomever they think they can get away with murdering and looting.
No dear N, Pakis also thought that any call to a united India means that some one will administer a genocide on them for sure , you SHOULD read history -- the genocide which happened later was a byproduct of that line of thought.

-- deleted a beautiful witty barb since that might actually hurt N :shock: :eek: --

But now that you are down to comparing forum posters to Pakis what can I say? Either respond in similar vein (delete line above) or just point out that calling attention to the real reasons of what is happening may not be permissible but that does not mean we actively flog a falsehood. Let us just stay quite on things which must not be named.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by Prem »

Narayan or Neellkanth, 2 choices for Indians.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by ShauryaT »

narayanan wrote: But my concept of a civilized nation does not ASSUME that people of a certain religion or place of birth or appearance automatically are anti-national. Instead it respects their right to believe that they want to believe, as long as they respect the law, and don't infringe on the rights of others. Do they harbor hatred against others? Maybe, like some postors here clearly do, but unless I see them exhibiting signs of that, I don't feel like kicking them out. And when they do, so do I (I mean feel like kicking them out).
What do you do when you come to the conclusion that the laws themselves are not worth respecting because they lack a sense of fairness and do not represent the values of this nation?

Our preamble includes the words socialist and secular. I can list many laws here, which are downright not worth following and many are an insult to even a basic sense of fairness. Respect for the law will come, when there is a consensus on the basis of these laws, which in turn comes from shared beliefs and common values. The law is not a vaccum in itself.

Added: A simple example to illustrate a point. A government of, for and by the people is not any part of the US constitution, yet it forms the basis of a shared and evolving set of beliefs of US polity. These shared beliefs get reflected in the structures of the US system, in many ways - the primary being that the Government seeks to play a minimum role in the lives of the peoples. The 2nd amendment is also another example of this line of thought.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by brihaspati »

Prem wrote
Narayan or Neellkanth, 2 choices for Indians.
For Partition, suppose the choice was bewteen the Nrisingha or Parashurama version of the former, and the Tripurari or Dakshayagna version of the latter - which one is preferable?
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by Prem »

Tough Choice ,but Nrsingh did destroy the Rakshas. Ideally , Nrsingh then and Dakshyagni now is preferred. We are not out of woods yet.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by enqyoob »

What do you do when you come to the conclusion that the laws themselves are not worth respecting because they lack a sense of fairness and do not represent the values of this nation?
What you sure don't allow is ppl who have lost faith in the law to assume power - or run wild. To go to the American example, America simply gives one warning and then shoots to kill anyone like that. The Indian tradition is to be far more tolerant, which is why the Indian laws get flouted. We don't need to follow that example on BRF... which is my point.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by ShauryaT »

narayanan wrote: What you sure don't allow is ppl who have lost faith in the law to assume power - or run wild. To go to the American example, America simply gives one warning and then shoots to kill anyone like that. The Indian tradition is to be far more tolerant, which is why the Indian laws get flouted. We don't need to follow that example on BRF... which is my point.
By all means enforce the law, on BRF or otherwise but be sure that the law itself is not tyrannical and unfair and unjust and is supported by your participants.

To come to the American example, "run wild" is precisely what American law allows you to do. It is called the second amendment. But before that moment arrives, there are enough checks and balances to ensure that there is a system that works, is and appears to be fair and the people largely endorse it. A law just endorsed from above, without the support of its participants or citizens is nothing but tyranny.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by enqyoob »

Those who feel themselves unable to respect the law, always feel that law enforcement is "tyrannical" and that they themselves represent the last hope for Freedom - the fellows running wild and walking around city streets flaunting automatic weapons in the US embody this. Society cannot afford to let them run the show, because they don't have any discipline, and as they themselves claim, they do not respect the law. Nor try to satisfy THEIR standards of "fairness" etc.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by RayC »

I am sure there were many people among the many millions inside India who "believed in the two-nation theory". In fact I may also "believe in the two-nation theory", since I hold that India is well rid of Pakistan. Its like having a septic tank quite separate from the house.
Yes, why have a septic tank within the house?

More so, a faulty one.

The stink would be unbearable!
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by enqyoob »

But you have to have a place to dump all the pakistan since the rest of the world will not take it away - so u need the septic tank away from the house.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by Masaru »

ShauryaT wrote:
narayanan wrote: But my concept of a civilized nation does not ASSUME that people of a certain religion or place of birth or appearance automatically are anti-national. Instead it respects their right to believe that they want to believe, as long as they respect the law, and don't infringe on the rights of others. Do they harbor hatred against others? Maybe, like some postors here clearly do, but unless I see them exhibiting signs of that, I don't feel like kicking them out. And when they do, so do I (I mean feel like kicking them out).
What do you do when you come to the conclusion that the laws themselves are not worth respecting because they lack a sense of fairness and do not represent the values of this nation?

Our preamble includes the words socialist and secular. I can list many laws here, which are downright not worth following and many are an insult to even a basic sense of fairness. Respect for the law will come, when there is a consensus on the basis of these laws, which in turn comes from shared beliefs and common values. The law is not a vaccum in itself.

Added: A simple example to illustrate a point. A government of, for and by the people is not any part of the US constitution, yet it forms the basis of a shared and evolving set of beliefs of US polity. These shared beliefs get reflected in the structures of the US system, in many ways - the primary being that the Government seeks to play a minimum role in the lives of the peoples. The 2nd amendment is also another example of this line of thought.
Second the sentiments of Shaurya here. The track record of GoI doesn't give too much confidence in terms of either making or implementing fair and just laws. In fact GoI has quite an enviable record in implementing laws motivated by narrow parochial considerations (which is of course just/fair for the small rabid segment targeted). We can start with reservations, separate civil laws, article 370 etc. etc., which even the die hard liberals would have a hard time defending.

In an ideal democratic society the ideals that N3 sir proposes are achievable. But, what happens if a group uses the freedom/rights provided in a democratic setup (backed by legal guarantees) to achieve its narrow self interest at the cost of the rest of the society? What if the doctrine that this group professes to believe in exhorts them to act in that way? In such a situation should the only recourse for the rest of the society to just silently endure or give in to the demands in the name of secularism and protection of religious rights (as guaranteed by the law). Shared belief, values and morality is the basic minimum that is demanded for a functioning liberal democratic society based on rule of law. In the absence of which a rabid, violent, and focussed minority will force their will on the rest in the garb of democratic rights, which is exactly what happened in 1947. Should for example this or this or the shah bano incident be tolerated , because after all it is perfectly legal according to some 6th century desert law (which is as well pointed out by some TFTA lurker in the discussion section of the WSJ article). Deriding any body who calls a certain law as unjust as a vigilante; is like tarring Mandela and OBL with the same broad brush strokes.

Added later: OT but signs of times to come, members kindly take look at the 'opinions' of the 'analysts'
Last edited by Masaru on 29 Aug 2009 11:39, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by RayC »

narayanan wrote:But you have to have a place to dump all the pakistan since the rest of the world will not take it away - so u need the septic tank away from the house.
True.

Add some chemicals so that the muck dissolves faster!
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by wig »

ramana wrote:I think we need to write a BRF book on Partition.
ramana Ji,
i think that is a wonderful idea. i am not sure of how i can contribute, but still i would like to be of help.
maybe if could sketch out a roadmap of the steps to be taken i could see where i can be of use.
or am i talking too much?
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by samuel »

Here are some things we threw in the "septic tank"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nankana_Sahib
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katasraj_temple

And about a million people died creating the septic tank.
But it still stinks in India, the septic tank not far enough?
Or should we have treated the widespread infestation in situ, over a prolonged period of time?
May be part of the problem was treating them like sh*t by us in the first place? Freudian slip?
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by brihaspati »

Exactly. One of the root causes. First the "superior" non-septic-tankists failed to protect their "lower" orders (Most of the early convertees were the economically weaker sections of urban artisans - who could not leave their urban trade networks as this was their only livelihood) and some even "converted" themselves to maintain their lands and power. Worse, some of the "Brahmins" found high philosophy and oh-so-wonderful elements in the theology itself and began to reconstruct it in highly favourable light - at least in panegyrics meant for the eyes and ears of the ruling Islamic regime. Some "Kshatryias" took up active service with the invaders. And thereby helped in the ongoing subjugation and violence on the "lower" orders. Just as now.

But all along they maintained that inner hatred and distinction - and could never forget that the large number of Indians who make up the "Muslim" population were actually the "hated/looked-down-upon" "lower" orders in pre-Islamic times. This is why the clamour and demand is to "hate" the "people" and the country - bash "Pakistanis" and "Pakistan" - but not the ideology which has made them worth bashing. They resist tooth and nail the deconstruction of the theology, for they know very well that once the theology is deconstructed - the way will be open for measures to bring these populations back into the Bharatyia mold. Maybe this is something the non-septic-tankists abhor. Just as probably the early Congressites did.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by RayC »

And some changed to Brahmos!

Emancipation!

We must lure Jaswant to look at this thread and give his views! :rotfl:
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