Indian Railways Thread

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 24 Aug 2009 15:01

A quick question to Railway fans. Has there been an official confirmation that the ill-planned Side Middle Berth has been scrapped? In the Garib Rath train which runs the YPR-KCVL route, the Side Middle berths are still been allocated to people? I am getting a feeling that the TTEs in this train are taking bribes and allowing people to use the Side Middle Berth.

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 24 Aug 2009 16:28

Comments in my earlier post regarding Sydney, Paris, Holland, Sweden, Singapore, HK and Tokyo are first hand. I have also travelled in a double decker coach attached to the Sinhagad Express during its existence.

The double decker experience in India, Sydney,Paris, Holland and Sewden were good. The IR double decker coach design is from the classical era.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Aug 2009 19:13

http://www.scottishigh.com/food-menu.html

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 24 Aug 2009 19:29

^^ Wrong thread? See reply in Nukkad...

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 25 Aug 2009 11:02

Rahulji nice snaps on konkan railways. great scenery. I like the spots ..... looks like professional onlee. But you had too few of them .... I cant believe there arent more.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 26 Aug 2009 02:34

Rahul M wrote:snaps of konkan railways, came by email.

Juniors from school were engineers during the construction. THese guys used bikes to go to deep areas for building those tracks

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 26 Aug 2009 05:46

Sachin, check if the seat has a seat number. Although the railways has not taken the side middle berth off, they have taken the seat numbers off. And on the reservation chart there will be no tickets allocated to the seat number. For example there will be no ticket on seat no. 8, 17, (every 9th seat)

IIRC the railways had withdrawn that seat, after there were complaints. I had read news reports to this effect.
Apparantly this was some MBA from an IIM who had proposed this to increase revenue, this was started as a pilot project, but was not continued.

The TTEs will try to sell that seat off 9 out of 10 times. Passangers need to stand firm and threaten to report this. Once the TTE tried to accommodate some RPF chaps and a few people in our bogie. People joined the protest after I told the TTE to tell me his name and how he was allocating that seat. The TTE by then had bullied one or two people into lowering that seat in the bogie. The fact that he backed down and went to sleep in another bogie is confirmation enough to me I think.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 26 Aug 2009 11:41

if they can design a rail launcher for Agni missile, why is their research division not designing a simple double decker coach? and they seek foreign collaboration ...

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 26 Aug 2009 23:46

vasu_ray wrote:if they can design a rail launcher for Agni missile, why is their research division not designing a simple double decker coach? and they seek foreign collaboration ...

We SDRE's are good at creating and maintaining erections...not population management saar

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 27 Aug 2009 01:14

tsriram wrote:
Rahul M wrote:has anyone travelled on these things, either in India or abroad ?
I have. On the Flying Rani. Was a nice ride to Surat from Bombay. We could have such trains for the <5-6hours train journeys. Would help carry more people, especially on crowded routes like madras-madurai which has nearly 5-6 trains and all of them run full capacity nearly througout the year.

TS, how comfortable was it ? could you give a description about space, seating arrabgement and so on ?

could it be that the overhead lines have put a limit on the coach height ? previously very few long range desi tracks had electrification.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 27 Aug 2009 07:33

nikhil_p wrote:not population management saar

this is OT still,

On the population front, taking cue from Sanjay M, we could do well by placing prefab sulabh complexes at all public places most importantly bus stops in villages, these sulabh complexes should also have free condoms (as cheap as super market plastic grocery bags) on self dispensers, the national municipal network traveling by buses can then replenish these dispensers on a daily basis

make it amply clear to the public that these are free so that they aren't duped into buying them, the s. complexes are to give the folks of both gender privacy exercising this option

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 27 Aug 2009 07:37

Rahul M wrote:could it be that the overhead lines have put a limit on the coach height ? previously very few long range desi tracks had electrification.

thought that was an issue, however please check these dimensions,

what is allowed by IR with electrification,

http://www.irfca.org/docs/stock-dimensions-1971.html

and what a double decker coach on standard gauge measures,
4.87m

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superliner_%28railcar%29
4.9m

not so much of a difference, and better with IR's Broad gauge

Here's a likely picture,
http://railroadpictures.net/Trains/Amtr ... 4.JPG.html

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 27 Aug 2009 10:25

Rahul M wrote: TS, how comfortable was it ? could you give a description about space, seating arrabgement and so on ?

could it be that the overhead lines have put a limit on the coach height ? previously very few long range desi tracks had electrification.

I remember it being a seater bogie and was quite comfortable. Don't remember the layout and finer aspects

As for the height, I don't remember it being very much taller than a standard bogie.

Found one here on Skyscrapercity - Clicky

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 27 Aug 2009 12:16

Gagan wrote:The TTEs will try to sell that seat off 9 out of 10 times.

Both SHQ and another friend of mine had faced the same issue. When SHQ travelled she had got the Side Lower berth. It had the same number as noted in the ticket. But when the train left BAND, the TTE started placing people on the side middle berth. When my colleague travelled, she got the side upper berth, which was the same mentioned in the ticket. But then TTE 'alloted' the side middle berth to some one else

. So I guess things have been corrected in the reservation system, but since the SMB is physically there, it is getting misused.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 27 Aug 2009 12:31

I think this picture captures the problem pretty well.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/204/4639 ... a239_o.jpg

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 28 Aug 2009 09:09

Rahul M wrote:has anyone travelled on these things, either in India or abroad ?

I have travelled Mumbai-Pune on the Sinhgad Express in the days when it used to be have the double deck coaches. The seats were comfortable, but the lower decks needed more ventilation. And the upper deck had low ceiling so claustrophobic or tall people would do better on the lower deck.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 28 Aug 2009 10:27

why do the platforms need to be high? currently the normal stations have high platforms and the nondescript ones have low platforms, during the transition when both double decker and single level coaches need to be handled, a typical 4 platform station can have low sides of the platform facing the main line and high sides facing the outside loop lines

with double decker long distance trains not stopping at many stations can speed on the main line

there can be an extension of the rail lines on the outside edge loop lines so that they continue to be holding positions for slow moving trains (double decker or not). These extensions are beyond your normal station length

As for the coaches they have to have closed glass windows and central a/c or ventilation from side inlets, no more ceiling fans

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 28 Aug 2009 10:36

vasu_ray wrote:during the transition when both double decker and single level coaches need to be handled,

I do agree that the platforms can be of uniform height, but it is not required just for having double decker coaches. In the coaches I have seen in Europe, the doors are at platform levels (or have steps to climb down). A passenger enters through the door, if he wants to goto the lower deck, climbs down 2-3 steps or else climbs up 3-4 steps. The stair case is right next to the door in the coach.

As for the coaches they have to have closed glass windows and central a/c or ventilation from side inlets, no more ceiling fans

Agreed with that. Bombardier coaches seen in Europe have this facility.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 28 Aug 2009 10:45

Might be worth planning for better sewage handling for these coaches. IR stations will stink twice as bad with twice as many people in the coaches.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 28 Aug 2009 10:56

Its arguable but having the windows at the platform level is not aesthetic, these same bombardier coaches are seen in US as well, the doors are at the platform level (low) and the rest is as you describe. oh forgot to mention, the current single level coaches have a curving at the bottom that they do not touch the platform, however if the body extends well below the current platform level, you cannot expect it to speed at 120kmph or higher on the main line

flights carry similar number of passengers for long hours and they seem to do ok

Verma · Post by **Verma** » 29 Aug 2009 14:41

Rahul M wrote:I think this picture captures the problem pretty well.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/204/4639 ... a239_o.jpg

This is a typical Chinese platform which heights 1100mm from top of rail. In West Europe, platforms height 250mm/550mm/760mm, so passengers must jump up or climb up to the floor of car. In China or Japan, platforms are at the same level of car floor making getting on the coachs convenient for passengers, especially for disabled persons, very human-based design. Height of platforms is designed for single level coaches, the double deckers are designed for the platforms.

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 29 Aug 2009 19:14

Anyone heard about the new Duronto (high speed non-stop) trains announced by Mamata Banerjee during the budget. Looks like it will be a hit. None of them for karnataka

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Aug 2009 21:07

erm arent sampark kranti express trains already doing the long haul minimal stop thing ?

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 29 Aug 2009 21:15

maybe i dont know

But this is new ..... 12 new trains non-stop. 4 for west bengal. faster than shatabdi(because of the non-stop .... ie no one can board in between) ....but same speed as shatabdi ..... 140-150kmph types.

This is part of the new budget ..... none of the 12 trains are for karnataka.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 29 Aug 2009 21:18

The US platforms as I see have a wheelchair lift/ramp designated for a particular coach

if one sees the bombardier coach in this link http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... in_046.jpg
, the door comes almost close to the height of the platform, a bit more height to the platform the wheelchairs can be moved freely

currently in India, there is no wheel chair access even for single level coaches

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 05 Sep 2009 01:01

Does anyone have some data on the Bose Traction system used on Indian Rail engines...I had a write up...not finding it.

BTW we are considering the EMD locos to replace out ALCO's...is anyone aware if GE and Seimens are also being considered???

Verma · Post by **Verma** » 05 Sep 2009 10:33

EMD & GE are leading companies in diesel locos, the best locos of them, SD90MAC vs AC6000CW are similar. If you want to save money, import one of them. If you have a lot of money, you could import both of them for competition.

Bombardier, Alstom and Siemens are leading companies in electric locos. The best European diesel loco companies are Voith and Vossloh, but their locos' power are too small when compared with American ones.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=925732

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Sep 2009 14:35

there seems to be absolutely zero R&D work in wagons and locos in India which is surprising because we have one of biggest inventory and needs. ALL of our local designs are imported from here and there, alongwith the key parts like traction motors. we cant even make a proper passenger coach as seen by importing LHB coaches for rajdhani and shatabdi and korean coaches for DMRC.

I guess even some of the small east european nations like czech republic and poland are way ahead of us in many such essential areas.

our railway ministers ( a long undistinguished run of satraps from Bihar ) exist only to create more jobs, new subdivisions and announce new wheel and sleeper factories.

any half-decent aspiring country has a lot better and cleaner trains and platforms than we do.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 06 Sep 2009 08:08

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Sep 2009 21:13

mumbai suburban train 2020

btw I saw a train coming from Salem side to Blr yesterday - it was painted mostly green with a yellow stripe
in the middle. had around 10 coaches but all were marked AC Sleeper. is there some special intercity train coming into blr where all coaches are AC ? it was a level crossing so I am pretty sure there were no second class or general unserved rakes at all.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Sep 2009 21:44

^^^
garib rath.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 07 Sep 2009 17:05

Singha wrote:btw I saw a train coming from Salem side to Blr yesterday - it was painted mostly green with a yellow stripe in the middle.

Might be the KCVL-YPR Garib Rath. That takes the YPR-BAND-HSRA-DPJ-SA route. Also I am not sure why, this train is also using double locos (two inter-connected locos).

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 09 Sep 2009 00:57

Pictures of Mamta's new Duronto Trains

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Sep 2009 01:18

^^^

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 09 Sep 2009 06:32

WAP4, the electric IR workhorse is an indigenous effort and a single loco can haul a 26 coach train at 140kmph. The loco itself has been tested to almost 170kmph. The electrics including rectifiers are Indian but the traction motors are Hitachi. Not a bad indigenous effort, however, its regretable our flourishing electrical engineering industry could not provide the traction motors.

The WDM X (ALCO) is venerable and is a imported design. The chug of the ALCO 16 cyclinder 4 stroke engine is heavenly. Its replacements are the 2 stroke WDP X and WDG * and are based on the EMD GT46PAC. These give off a characteristic whine.

There are no indigenous loco diesel engines. We only tinker with the ALCO's.

Our record in electrics is better. We have done poorly in diesels and struggle with creating anything that has a piston, camshaft and crankshaft but excel in any thing to do with Mild steel with a form factor of channel, angle or block.

Less said about coaches (ICF and RCF) the better. The signature IR coach rolling stock is imported Swiss design (Schlieren) and LHB, a German import for premier services new stock.

IR gets no thanks for its waste discharge. IR still has not designed and deployed en masse (exception LHB coaches) a controlled discharge toilet and evidently does not plan to finish the exercise until 2020 (initial target 2012). Try standing on platform 1 of any busy railway station. Its basically an open sewer and an assault on the nose that wafts into the railway restaurant also on platform 1. Washing the tracks a few times a day is too little.

An engine-coach or coach-coach coupling in IR is fully manual, involves 3-4 staff and takes anywhere from 5 - 20 minutes. Contrast that at SNCF where the TGV/Thalys is fully automated, takes 1 person and less than 30 seconds (personal experience).

Thankfully, IR rail track and sleeper is indigenous stock as also most transformers, pantograph, switchgear, insulators, wheels & axles cables.

While IR deserves kudos for a number of services, punctuality (getting better each year), computerised reservation system, udipi restaurants

on stations it is punching way below its weight.

Given its size and volume IR should be a world leader and setting the pace in traction (electric and diesel), signaling, coach and comfort technology (exports to SAARC countries and Africa are welcome but hardly scratching its potential).Instead there is some indigenisation while the critical technologies are still imported.

With regard to platform cleanliness,as dust bins are provided on stations I think the travelling public should be first in the line of fire before we fault IR. Each individual considers cleanliness as everyone else's job not theirs. I always hang a plastic bag by the window and collect my rubbish to be disposed off at a station. I am laughed at by the others in the coach who just prefer to fling the rubbish (including glass bottles that shatter on impact with the ground and creating a safety hazard for the hapless gangmen) merrily out the window.

But, I have good memories travelling on IR.

Verma · Post by **Verma** » 10 Sep 2009 01:29

rahulm wrote:The WDM X (ALCO) is venerable and is a imported design. The chug of the ALCO 16 cyclinder 4 stroke engine is heavenly. Its replacements are the 2 stroke WDP X and WDG * and are based on the EMD GT46PAC. These give off a characteristic whine.

There are no indigenous loco diesel engines. We only tinker with the ALCO's.

ALCO did not product any locomotives from year of 1968.
From WDM-4, all fo Indian diesel locomotives were made by EMD(former GM locomotive).

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 10 Sep 2009 05:27

Rail ministry revives $6 billion project to build 2000 locomotives

The government has decided to revive an ambitious $6 billion (Rs29,220 crore) project to build diesel and electric locomotives.

The project, which was originally conceived as a joint venture and which later became an arm of the Indian Railways, was in limbo after its prime mover, former rail minister Lalu Prasad, failed to retain his post when the Congress-led United Progressive Alliance regained power in the 15th Lok Sabha election.

However, it seems to have acquired a fresh lease of life with new rail minister Mamata Banerjee approving a proposal to formulate a cabinet note on developing two locomotive factories—one electric and one diesel—as joint ventures with private sector partners, and not arms of the railways.

The project originally envisaged the production of nearly 2,000 diesel and electric locomotives—at Marhowra and Madhepura, respectively— over an eight-year period, with the winning bidder expected to maintain the locomotives for a specified number of years.

Five companies, Siemens AG, General Electric Co., Bombardier Inc., Alstom SA and Electro-Motive Diesels Inc., were originally shortlisted for the project.

The factories were later converted into departmental units by Prasad after several shortlisted bidders failed to put in bids for a variety of reasons, including the global economic slowdown.

The Planning Commission had always been of the opinion that the locomotive factories should be built with the involvement of the private sector, as opposed to departmental units, this person added.

“Our view is always that a JV (joint venture) is better,” said a Planning Commission official who did not want to be named. “There cannot be a PPP in this because there are no services,” the official said.

PPP refers to a public-private partnership, where a private sector company develops the infrastructure and offers an allied service for a fee (such as tolling) for a specified number of years.

Confirming the move by the railways, an executive with one of the previously shortlisted bidders said he had been “unofficially” told the railways was looking to restart the process.

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 10 Sep 2009 05:51

True. Its still an ALCO albeit made by DLW i.e. an imported design. Infact the GM/EMD technology was better and the IR prototype was classified WDM4 but ToT was not on the table so IR chose ALCO (WDM2). From memory, IR has progressively upgraded the original ALCO HP from 2600 to 3300.

Few WDM4's were built and very few survive today.

Of late, its appears IR's future direction is away from Mixed (M) class locos in favour of specialisation (Passenger (P) and Good (G).)

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 11 Sep 2009 18:02

Delhi Metro receives uni gauge metro car from BEML

The fit and finnish is really good, like bidesh mall.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 11 Sep 2009 18:53

Suraj wrote:Rail ministry revives $6 billion project to build 2000 locomotives
The government has decided to revive an ambitious $6 billion (Rs29,220 crore) project to build diesel and electric locomotives.

The project, which was originally conceived as a joint venture and which later became an arm of the Indian Railways, was in limbo after its prime mover, former rail minister Lalu Prasad, failed to retain his post when the Congress-led United Progressive Alliance regained power in the 15th Lok Sabha election.

However, it seems to have acquired a fresh lease of life with new rail minister Mamata Banerjee approving a proposal to formulate a cabinet note on developing two locomotive factories—one electric and one diesel—as joint ventures with private sector partners, and not arms of the railways.

The project originally envisaged the production of nearly 2,000 diesel and electric locomotives—at Marhowra and Madhepura, respectively— over an eight-year period, with the winning bidder expected to maintain the locomotives for a specified number of years.

Five companies, Siemens AG, General Electric Co., Bombardier Inc., Alstom SA and Electro-Motive Diesels Inc., were originally shortlisted for the project.

The factories were later converted into departmental units by Prasad after several shortlisted bidders failed to put in bids for a variety of reasons, including the global economic slowdown.

The Planning Commission had always been of the opinion that the locomotive factories should be built with the involvement of the private sector, as opposed to departmental units, this person added.

“Our view is always that a JV (joint venture) is better,” said a Planning Commission official who did not want to be named. “There cannot be a PPP in this because there are no services,” the official said.

PPP refers to a public-private partnership, where a private sector company develops the infrastructure and offers an allied service for a fee (such as tolling) for a specified number of years.

Confirming the move by the railways, an executive with one of the previously shortlisted bidders said he had been “unofficially” told the railways was looking to restart the process.

No marks for guessing where one of the factories will come up. In fact i think she is reviving it just for that