Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby Rahul M » 27 Aug 2009 23:15

last bunch of posts moved to viewtopic.php?f=16&t=5132 which I have re-started.

@ sukhdeo, mods have been very lenient with your unnecessary disruptive behaviour.
I'm once again requesting you not to go about picking fights, find another place to sharpen your horns if you need one, BR is not for that.
consider this to be an unofficial warning.
Rahul.


P.S. and kindly do not go about derailing threads, however nice your posts sound to you in the wrong thread it is still an irritation to other people.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby svinayak » 27 Aug 2009 23:41

shaardula wrote:random aside. ramana a glimpse at sanskritization in progress.
http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?234999

i cant quote his exact post now, but shiv has spoken about how OBC was taking ownership. i remember bcoz by father said the exact same thing. also, UR ananthamurthy had long time ago predicted this. i can also give you a popular example. when the popular thespian rajkumar died, he was sent off in very very sanskritized way that was conspicuously way out of norm for his community. what is amazing is this sanskritization is going on without conflict and persistently. ofcourse as r. ganesh points in andhra, this has happened without much ado also. non brahmin communities like reddys etc have completely owned/usurped sanskrit for example(why even vara vara writes sanskritic prose in telugu). of course the reddy's are not really the same as kurubas, but nevertheless ...

Your surprise of no conflict is really due to indoctrination. The marxists and the social historians has drilled the new generation born after 1940 that there is class conflict and oppression (from before in history) in the *larger* social order in the Indian society. That myth has been removed in your eyes with this article.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby shaardula » 28 Aug 2009 05:35

Acharya wrote:
shaardula wrote:random aside. ramana a glimpse at sanskritization in progress.
http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?234999

i cant quote his exact post now, but shiv has spoken about how OBC was taking ownership. i remember bcoz by father said the exact same thing. also, UR ananthamurthy had long time ago predicted this. i can also give you a popular example. when the popular thespian rajkumar died, he was sent off in very very sanskritized way that was conspicuously way out of norm for his community. what is amazing is this sanskritization is going on without conflict and persistently. ofcourse as r. ganesh points in andhra, this has happened without much ado also. non brahmin communities like reddys etc have completely owned/usurped sanskrit for example(why even vara vara writes sanskritic prose in telugu). of course the reddy's are not really the same as kurubas, but nevertheless ...

Your surprise of no conflict is really due to indoctrination. The marxists and the social historians has drilled the new generation born after 1940 that there is class conflict and oppression (from before in history) in the *larger* social order in the Indian society. That myth has been removed in your eyes with this article.


may well be charya. but that fact is it is happening now. the last time when such a thing happened in KA atleast was circa 1000AD. all that may or maynot have been myths. what i am interested in is that people are proactively trying out solutions. and that is evolution, ferment. and in strict adherence of the most basic of indic ideas. which is jignyasa. and who experiments? those who feel unencumbered by a feeling siege. it may also be because there are real measurable gains - like money , fame, glory etc. but i dont care. please note that these you cant pursue when under siege. more importantly, if you know your ashtavakra you know better than be shamed by these allegations by marxists. religion has always been the politics of spirituality. so what?

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby brihaspati » 28 Aug 2009 07:45

shaardula wrote
ps. B, lets keep aside our disagreement about approach-e-JLN for the moment. what do you think of the above development? (been around for a while now, but lets call it a development and play along) . i think it reinforces entitlement and thus makes it that much harder for somebody to surmount the "indic".


JLN is not worth "disagreements". :) Oh I think it should be encouraged in a way. I think you know what I think of sectarianism and by-birth claims of proprietorship of culture/cultural empowerment within the "Bharatyia". In fact I am on the long term project of inverting the imagery used to justify such excluvism inside the "panth". I would turn all the social divisions outside in the society as aspects of the self within the individual. So Sanskritization as indicated is very much within my vision. The acknowledgement and inclusion and entitlement is something to be realized as the real import of the imagery in sacred texts.

The Madanites are on a win-win situation. The more exclusivist they grow, more they can ransom the rashtra. Maybe let the current able scion of the Dagar gharana sing a dhrupadi shiva-strotram/tandavam in KE and TN before the Madanists. I would love to watch their faces.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby svinayak » 28 Aug 2009 08:10

shaardula wrote:
may well be charya. but that fact is it is happening now. the last time when such a thing happened in KA atleast was circa 1000AD. all that may or maynot have been myths. what i am interested in is that people are proactively trying out solutions. and that is evolution, ferment. and in strict adherence of the most basic of indic ideas. which is jignyasa. and who experiments? those who feel unencumbered by a feeling siege. it may also be because there are real measurable gains - like money , fame, glory etc. but i dont care. please note that these you cant pursue when under siege. more importantly, if you know your ashtavakra you know better than be shamed by these allegations by marxists. religion has always been the politics of spirituality. so what?


RSS has such programs in many states including KA for many decades now. These are shoing up in the mainstream news now.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby shaardula » 29 Aug 2009 18:53

brihaspati wrote:
shaardula wrote
ps. B, lets keep aside our disagreement about approach-e-JLN for the moment. what do you think of the above development? (been around for a while now, but lets call it a development and play along) . i think it reinforces entitlement and thus makes it that much harder for somebody to surmount the "indic".


JLN is not worth "disagreements". :) Oh I think it should be encouraged in a way. I think you know what I think of sectarianism and by-birth claims of proprietorship of culture/cultural empowerment within the "Bharatyia". In fact I am on the long term project of inverting the imagery used to justify such excluvism inside the "panth". I would turn all the social divisions outside in the society as aspects of the self within the individual. So Sanskritization as indicated is very much within my vision. The acknowledgement and inclusion and entitlement is something to be realized as the real import of the imagery in sacred texts.

The Madanites are on a win-win situation. The more exclusivist they grow, more they can ransom the rashtra. Maybe let the current able scion of the Dagar gharana sing a dhrupadi shiva-strotram/tandavam in KE and TN before the Madanists. I would love to watch their faces.


hmm. B i am not sure i understood your post fully. i am yet to entangle certain concepts.

without naming names, lets just say current scholarship assigns high value to ethnographic concerns, which of course depends on the scale at which you choose to discretize peoples. at the same time, melting pot is also celebrated.
i find that, as practiced in the west, and as increasingly imbibed by us, this concern of ethnography is very superficial. if i have to give an example, then it would be the example of the "reserve" jungles of kenya, where the masai mara are required to move into the periphery (where the world changes) and yet retain their innocence and perform their "traditional" dance for the "ecologically concerned" and "culturally sensitive", western sahibs. apparently, true blue masai refuse to do it, and kenya has to use surrogates to satisfy the those desirous of "culture".

the indic approach to this was different. it didnot reduce any people to a theater group. instead it pre-assigned economic value. this ofcourse lent itself to direct and indirect assignment of derived social value. as long as it is tied to economic value it is acceptable to current thinking. for what ever reasons, our systems started to assign assign economic value to social values.

is there a balance?

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby brihaspati » 29 Aug 2009 19:09

S,
No, I am not so sure that purely economic values were always used to grade elements of social, cultural and ethnic identities. If that was so, the economically destructive Abrahamic would not have been given a high status by the Indic elite. In that sense, re-Sanskritization in KA would not make sense economically.

But economics may play an indirect role. Economic empowerment could make people free to assert the search and cosntruction of their own values or values which were previously repressed by ruling systems. If economics really drove the Indic value formation, then the Abrahamic would not have had any toe-hold on India, and even now we would be facing revolution after revolution - because of the abominable calousness with which commoner's economic survival or well-being is treated.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby sukhdeo » 29 Aug 2009 19:26

http://business.rediff.com/report/2009/ ... itroda.htm

Interesting speech by Pitroda. Has significant bearing on the future of India.

Do people here agree with Sam ? or going back to "Gurukulas" the only salvation ?

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby brihaspati » 29 Aug 2009 19:35

http://www.ipcs.org/article_details.php?articleNo=2957
The article quoted by ramanaji.

Reading through, I find that the author's arguments against a Chinese-expected disintegration of India are rather weak and insufficient. This however, at least from my views, does not imply that the Chinese hopes are based on concrete and realistic calculations and that disintegration is inevitable.

If as the author says, modern nations fall not because of external disintegrating endeavours, but because of internal disorders - then it is too simplistic. The USSR for all practical purposes was a single state - and all the internal conflicts that can touted as examples of non-statehood are actually based on debatable issues of scale. Such microconflicts can be found in any modern state based on subidentities derived from historical roots. Yet the USSR fell. Was it only because of internal weakness? Was it only because of external attempts - by the Catholic Church, by the Americans, etc? Could it be that the internal weaknesses developed from coping with the external factors? Could it be that the external factors could at all play and arise externally becuase of internal weaknesses?

China's disintegrating efforts could actually succeed only under certain conditions:

(a) If India does not establish a strong core of national identity based on long standing cultural roots in the majority of the Indian population, and establish a framework where the national identity supercedes all subidentities even if it does not replace all of them
(b) If Pakistan is allowed to survive and the safe base for Islamic Jihadists to operate on the subcontinent from Pakistan
(c) Continuing mistaken strategic line by the USA to deal with the Taleban in AFG and TSP, which is practically going to turn into a face-saving retreat from AFG and eventually from TSP, but increasing Islamization and Caliphate formation in AFG-TSP.
(d) If India indulges interference and maintenance of "bases" by external religious and social organizations which disrupt state attempts at tackling separatism, terrorism and creeation of new micro-identities.
(e) If the Congress continues in rashtryia power - as the main historical concern or identification of the core of the party appears to be with a north and central geographical portion of India. All else is somehow periphery which can be "sacrificed" to external aggression to save what it considers the "core". It appears to have worked on this principle during the Partition, and its economic policies of internal discrimination subsequently have not reflected any basic change in this attitude.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby brihaspati » 29 Aug 2009 19:49

Pitroda's speech appears to be well-intentioned but he is no politician.

It would be natural to expect that the politicans would demand a "new approach" for increasing "liberal arts". Unlike in the USA, in India, recruitment and research - by which academic coteries are created and maintained - will continue to be influenced by the demands of political regimes. In science and technology, there is no room left for ideological manipulation of thought processes accroding to the needs of the ruling interests. Modern Indian elite in politics have failed to derive recruits from the technology and science group. Primarily because these branches survive on cold and hard analysis based on logic and is not pre-disposed to accept dogma.

The Congress government realizes that most of the contrary ideological voices it faces derive from people in science or technology origin. One just has to look at the virulent characterization of the diasporic communities for being "Hindu right wing fascists" and the exceptionally aggressive words used by the Thaparites against scientists or engineers in particular when such people bring in their logical approach to challenge the ruling regime's dogmas. (Looking at their language and viciousness, I sometimes wonder, how they could have survived as objective "academics" if they really had to fight it out in a "western" seting unless they were protected and patronized becuase of the important political role they play).

Liberal arts, supervised by Thaparite and "Leftist" coteries in education will be a means of ideological control and training of next generations of leadership. Moreover, such education could also be used to keep the general populations under firm ideological control and the myths so vital for the regime's existence.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby sukhdeo » 29 Aug 2009 20:07

brihaspati wrote:Pitroda's speech appears to be well-intentioned but he is no politician.

It would be natural to expect that the politicans would demand a "new approach" for increasing "liberal arts". Unlike in the USA, in India, recruitment and research - by which academic coteries are created and maintained - will continue to be influenced by the demands of political regimes. In science and technology, there is no room left for ideological manipulation of thought processes accroding to the needs of the ruling interests. Modern Indian elite in politics have failed to derive recruits from the technology and science group. Primarily because these branches survive on cold and hard analysis based on logic and is not pre-disposed to accept dogma.

The Congress government realizes that most of the contrary ideological voices it faces derive from people in science or technology origin. One just has to look at the virulent characterization of the diasporic communities for being "Hindu right wing fascists" and the exceptionally aggressive words used by the Thaparites against scientists or engineers in particular when such people bring in their logical approach to challenge the ruling regime's dogmas. (Looking at their language and viciousness, I sometimes wonder, how they could have survived as objective "academics" if they really had to fight it out in a "western" seting unless they were protected and patronized becuase of the important political role they play).

Liberal arts, supervised by Thaparite and "Leftist" coteries in education will be a means of ideological control and training of next generations of leadership. Moreover, such education could also be used to keep the general populations under firm ideological control and the myths so vital for the regime's existence.



I say again, to counter ideological control of any kind by anybody is more openness and more education, specially liberal arts education, of which logic is an integral part. The answer is not to suppress liberal arts education, but more of it. How is it better to keep kids devoid of knowledge of history or philosophy, for instance, rather than them learning about made up history and convoluted ideologies. History has proven, that once you generate an interest in kids for a particular subject, whether it be history or anything else, you cannot suppress their quest to find the truth. This happened in the Soviet Union and will happen in China. No amount of government control could keep people from knowing the truth in the long run. The only sure fire way to prevent people from knowing the truth is to keep them totally ignorant, like we are keeping our kids in India today, by simply focussing on technical education and not on liberal arts, which in India is pretty much dead.

So I say, more liberal arts, even if initially it may be ideologically controlled, because no one can keep it controlled in the long run.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby brihaspati » 29 Aug 2009 20:25

In reality, the GOI has always ensured that most of the material for historical resarch remains unavailable or inaccessible - especially if they can lead to holes in the dogma or myths perpetrated by the ruling regimes. All the so-called liberal arts being clamoured for, will be taught through social re-engineering propganda based on fancy myths created by completely illogical "professional" historians and sociologists.

In reality, how many kids even if not going for "science", actually do care to read up history on their own after they leave school and are no longer required to pass the infamous "history" tests? Most of the re-investigations that you are pointing to as an indication of independent research happen outside the academic "liberal arts" - away from India, and from people who did not have the misfortune of being "brainwashed" by Thaparite dogmas through "liberal arts".

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby Sanku » 29 Aug 2009 20:54

sukhdeo wrote: specially liberal arts education, of which logic is an integral part.


Not how it is in India, here dogma is the root and the basis.

The answer is not to suppress liberal arts education, but more of it.


More of crap is not necessarily better. Something must be considered good to be spread, no reason to spread more of the same just based on some faith system of belief.

How is it better to keep kids devoid of knowledge of history or philosophy, for instance, rather than them learning about made up history and convoluted ideologies.


Because then they have spare time and effort for other things, better things. Also they are not programmed.

The tabula rasa is a very valuable concept. Ask any psychologist. (Talk of the primacy effect)

History has proven, that once you generate an interest in kids for a particular subject, whether it be history or anything else, you cannot suppress their quest to find the truth. This happened in the Soviet Union and will happen in China.


Just like in Pakistan you mean? Or in Nazi Germany? Actually history has not proven anything of that sort by a long long chalk. This is another of your belief system based assumption which has ZERO relevance in a real world.

Soviet system broke because of its inherent ECONOMIC EFFICIENCY.

Till soviet system broke because of the economic issues, MOST people believed the lines fed to them. Hell a large number still do. Despite the breakdown. I know first hand.

liberal arts, which in India is pretty much dead.


You clearly do not live in India, there is no shortage of liberal arts schools in India and the graduates. Yet liberal arts died because
1) People found it had ZERO relevance in the real world in the way it was structured in India. Just a babu making machine for poor minds. A brainwashing system at the end of which even the intelligent ones turned drones. Zero economic utility.
2) The engineers et al first did engineering and then came back and beat the lib arts graduate in pretty much every game including lib arts since their brains had not been ossified by the system.

So I say, more liberal arts, even if initially it may be ideologically controlled, because no one can keep it controlled in the long run.


Yes and in the long run we are all dead anyway. :lol:

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby sukhdeo » 29 Aug 2009 22:02

Moderators/Administrators,

Please take note of the post just preceding this one. There is a pattern of this kind of nonsense from this particular poster. Is this adding to any discussion ? Please read my previous posts to see if this tone is justified ?

If you dont intervene, clearly it must mean that this poster is acting as a proxy on your behalf.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby Sanku » 29 Aug 2009 22:36

Well Sukhdeo, what exactly did I say which is against forum rules? Please tell me? I will be happy to delete the offending part?

Meanwhile, If you can actually rebut anything I said, it would make better discussion.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby sukhdeo » 29 Aug 2009 23:30

Sanku wrote:Well Sukhdeo, what exactly did I say which is against forum rules? Please tell me? I will be happy to delete the offending part?

Meanwhile, If you can actually rebut anything I said, it would make better discussion.


You are on my ignore list. Please refrain from addressing me or my posts. Thanks.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby Sanku » 29 Aug 2009 23:34

sukhdeo wrote:
Sanku wrote:Well Sukhdeo, what exactly did I say which is against forum rules? Please tell me? I will be happy to delete the offending part?

Meanwhile, If you can actually rebut anything I said, it would make better discussion.


You are on my ignore list. Please refrain from addressing me or my posts. Thanks.


If I am on your ignore list you shouldnt care if I post right. You dont see it anyway. And then why make this post too?

See the fallacy?

Satyamev Jayte.

And as I said before when you have tried to muzzle me, I will not let what I consider contentious pass uncontested -- meanwhile you have yet again chickened out when asked to put the meat on the table.

Have the honesty to follow through once at least.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby RoyG » 29 Aug 2009 23:47

What's happening to this forum.....? *rolls eyes*

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby ramana » 30 Aug 2009 06:28

sukhdeo is on learning curve. We have this often when a new member, who thinks he has all the answers and wants to teach the old ones here, comes. Either he will learn or go away. Relax.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby sukhdeo » 30 Aug 2009 08:33

:rotfl:
ramana wrote:sukhdeo is on learning curve. We have this often when a new member who thinks he has all the answerers and wants to teach the old noes here comes. Either he will learn or go away. Relax.



Ramana,

You never stop amusing me. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

I absolutely am learning. A lot about this forum. But dont you think, hardball tactics are better to use against what BRF calls "enemies", such as "TSP", maybe or the "Chinese", perhaps ? Only the weak use it against their own. But then again, one of the many good and bad traditions that we Indians have is using extreme tactics against their own, when by and large they dont have the capability to inflict it on the enemies. The demons within do have to come out somewhere, if the "external" is too strong, might as well turn against your own. And they dont use these extreme tactics against the internal traitors either, they normally use it against the best of us. Jaichand stabbed Prithviraj, ManSingh stabbed Maharana Pratap, Mir Zafar stabbed Sirajudaula, I can go on and on. I dont grudge anyone wanting their place in history, too. :rotfl: :rotfl:

By the way, I have known about using proxies to fight one's battle before I came on BRF. That is nothing new in BRF, just surprising, how "clever" some folks are, for no apparent gain. :rotfl:

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby Sanku » 30 Aug 2009 14:46

sukhdeo wrote:By the way, I have known about using proxies to fight one's battle before I came on BRF. That is nothing new in BRF, just surprising, how "clever" some folks are, for no apparent gain. :rotfl:


Perhaps its your paranoia which to you lets you appear that if two or three people are in agreement then it must be that they are out to get you and not the simple process that they are in agreement simply.

But what is achieved by attacking people and playing then playing the victim every time your thought process is countered.

That does not make for discussion, only disruption.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby brihaspati » 30 Aug 2009 19:13

sukhdeoji,
in connection to ramanaji's comment, it is perhaps important to recognize a friend when he is trying to extend a hand. It is also important to win over as many genuine and sincere people as friends if you want your selfless desires for the nation to become effectively realized. :)

There will always be some among the Bharatyia who do not sufficiently identify with us to be able to submerge his personal weaknesses for the sake of the nation. This is why we need to be aware that no amount of "training" in the liberal sense of approaching things which is the hallmark of the Bharatyia - can eliminate such extreme infighting and bickering or "backstabbing". Even extremely regimented ideologies like Islamics, Christianists, or Communists cannot get rid of this cancer - you will find even worse intensities of "backstabbing" among them and much more common than the Bharatyia. Look at Islamist's history - it is full of treachery and intense personal rivalries and horrible betrayals. Same goes for the factional fights and internal bleeding within the Christianists. The communist horror is more well known thanks to the Abrahamic need to paint their competitor in their own colours.

The key is to keep the "core" of leadership "pure", and keep on the struggle to "purify" in the larger society. But it is a continuous fight, never-ending, for it is a fight between two aspects of the self in every human.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby RoyG » 30 Aug 2009 19:25

Alright guys, enough with the public display of affection lol. Channel your energies toward maintaining the momentum of discussion and educating newcomers like me instead of stroking each others egos. Everyone here is very knowledgeable and I'm sure that we can all learn a lot if we just address and converse with each other in a respectful manner. I know that it's very hard sometimes to acknowledge and understand other points of view but we really have to try. Thanks. Toodles.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby sukhdeo » 30 Aug 2009 20:16

My biggest tribute to Ramana is that I am still posting on his forum, despite all the indignities heaped on me here. I think he and other moderators have created an excellent forum, and it is obvious, where I wish to continue to post. When I challenge him, I only do so in the spirit of making the forum even better, because Ramana may be the closest person to perfection, but he hasnt reached absolute perfection yet.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby Sanku » 30 Aug 2009 20:45

sukhdeo wrote:My biggest tribute to Ramana is that I am still posting on his forum,


I think the biggest tribute is that you are still allowed to post.

to be able to submerge his personal weaknesses for the sake of the nation.


Is the key.

For some they are greater than the group -- for other group is greater than them. The question is balance between duties and privileges. Clearly history has shown the group which has behaved privileged has caused the greatest harm to India.

The dynamics of India can be seen in the microcosm of the forum too.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby sukhdeo » 30 Aug 2009 22:35

I must also commend Ramana for one other thing. Every forum, in order to lighten things up and act as a distraction, requires a comedian sidekick, a la 60s bollywood movie style. Remember Rajender Nath or a guy called Johnny Whiskey or even Keshto. Well, with all due respects to Rajender Nath, or Johnny Whisky, I think Ramana in a master stroke has picked a perfect sidekick for this forum in this Sanku person. He is a riot ! :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby Prem » 30 Aug 2009 23:29

Did i understand right that core values for core group must be tied to the core of Janam,Karam and Dharmbhumi of Aryavarat? Any political,social or moral force not perceiving so disqualify itself from the input of guiding the nation as whole:Inc BR, livig upto the name as Bharat Rakshak, not Nehruvian India Promoter.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby Sanku » 30 Aug 2009 23:30

Prem wrote:Did i understand right that core values for core group must be tied to the core of Janam,Karam and Dharmbhumi of Aryavarat? Any political,social or moral force not perceiving so disqualify itself from the input of guiding the nation as whole:Inc BR, livig upto the name as Bharat Rakshak, not Nehruvian India Promoter.


If that question was to me then yes, but I would like to see Brihspati answer that too.

Note "Karmbhoomi" does not mean working IN India, only working FOR India.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby Sanku » 30 Aug 2009 23:32

sukhdeo wrote:I must also commend Ramana for one other thing. Every forum, in order to lighten things up and act as a distraction, requires a comedian sidekick, a la 60s bollywood movie style. Remember Rajender Nath or a guy called Johnny Whiskey or even Keshto. Well, with all due respects to Rajender Nath, or Johnny Whisky, I think Ramana in a master stroke has picked a perfect sidekick for this forum in this Sanku person. He is a riot ! :rotfl: :rotfl:


You do me too much honor, you have yet to meet N I think, he will be upset at this.

But as I see you have no response. Only empty personal attacks.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby brihaspati » 30 Aug 2009 23:44

From the discussions on the Partition thread and its predecessor in discussion on JS-ji's book, it appears that we have very strong ideas on both sides of the question as to whether or not de-Partitioning "should" take place. Note that this is a "should" question, and not a "can" question.

Here we are faced with ethical and moral justifications, not only for the benefit of the "others" but also for ourselves. I have tried to give a summary of answers to the "can" question in a post in response to nachiketji's post.

(1) Strategic necessity:

(a) As long as a separate and independent entity of TSP remains it will continue to try everything in its power to bleed India, take over Kashmir, and further expand its dream of a Mughalistan. This means undercover operations, terror attacks, or even formal invasions on India.

(b) As long as TSP exists, it will be seen as an instrument to pressurize and manipulate India by outside powers like USA, UK and PRC. Which means certain weaknesses for India in international bargaining situations. Such bargaining can extend not only in purely foreign interests for India, but also have impact internally on India in its economy and internal security situation.

(c) Even if TSP is not trying to infiltrate, terrorize, or invade at any given instant of historical time, India has to maintain a large portion of its defence efforts and expenditure all along the western borders, from POK to Gujarat. This is more than a normal border maintenance operation becuase of persistent vicious hostility from the Paksitani side.

(d) Independent TSP provides alternative routes to the IO for PRC as well as a means of separating India physically from the CAR, and Iran - all vital for Indias future energy and further strategic needs.

(e) Independent TSP provides locations for nuclear weapons delivery system targeting India, by proxy, by PRC. Without this PRC is restricted to submarine based and Tibet based ones only. It also provides naval facilities to hostile powers like PRC at ports like Gwadar.

(2) Social necessity :

(a) destruction of TSP means the final acknowledgement that the original touted purpose of TSP as a beacon and hope for Muslims on the subcontinent was a false one. Muslims in India have to realize that they cannot have a non Bharatyia future, and none of their fondly looked forward cultural centres outside of India have ever done anything or will do anything positive for their future. As long as TSP exists, the political and military false hope remains and an alternative to integration with the mainstream remains. Submergence within the main Bharatyia stream can only be possible when no alternatives are left for social esteem through a separate and distinct identity.

(b) destruction of TSP and its incorporation finally paves the way for healing the trauma of Partition. Access to pilgrimage centres and cultural centres of the Sikhs and Hindus and possible resettlement options after potential "collateral damages". At the least we can expect "some" of our people to be liberal enough by tradition to "socially" heal trauma after conflict where the male population of Pakjab gets severely reduced in offering marriage to surviving women. :)

(c) the greatest destroyer of parochialism and ethnic/religious xenophobia is genetic and marital mixing. Opportunities for this can only be exploited within a single unified socio-political framework.

(3) Governance :

(a) Socio-economic reform striking at the base of Islamic retrogression can only be done under a unified state. The first reform is educational, striking at the base of the Madrassah based social control that generates terror on India.

(b) For a long time after reincorporation, there has to be strong administrative and legal mesaures that prevents or controls flow of people out of incorporated territories, and a staged and staggered intrdouction of democratic reforms. Prior to political reforms, economic and social reforms are necessary - especially land-reforms - that is the key to break the backbone of the feudal landowning class at the head of Pakistani politics right from the beginning and the chief criminals behind the trauma of formation of TSP and the Partition.

I do agree [with you] that a lot of Indians would have strong reservations against incorporations of the lands and peoples currently occupied by GOTSP. But the long term prosperity and peace for all peoples in the subcontinent is crucially dependent on unification under a common rashtra and world-view. I hope you understand why I am asking all to consider taking up this vision alongside the purely economic one we are pursuing now, and which is still not touching large sections of our own populations and which has every possibility of getting jeopardized in the long run if the TSP problem is not solved.

Kashmir or Balochistan is not the "problem" - there is no "Kashmir problem" or "Kashmir issue" but only a "TSP problem" or "TSP issue"."


As was natural for me to anticipate, that there would be strong opinions against de-Partition in the future, it still comes out in debates here. But my "can" post also perhaps can be used to think of ethical and moral issues.

My main argument is that we start from the position that all people on the subcontinent before the advent of Islam was more or less part of a homeogenous commonality of cultures that had their primary centres of focus within the subcontinent and within the historical experience of the populations on the subcontinent. If this is accceptable, then we have to identify with the people who still live on the subcontinent and who are practically speaking our blood brothers and sisters.

It then becomes our ethical and moral responsibility to see to it that our family members are trained for a proper life, and develop as proper human beings. If they go wayward, we need to bring them back, and straighten them up - with a good thrashing if necessary, but we also arrange for their education, clothing and food and give them love if they behave. But we cannot morally and ethically abandon "family" from the Bharatyia position.

I feel that it is the disjunction, this abandonment of all who fell under the spell of the Abrahamic, this making them the "other" and disowning them from the "Bharatyia" or even allow them to "disjoint" themselves - is a sign of our deviation and departure from the Bharatyia. It is the same cancer within us that created a whole range of excuses to separate people out and away from ourselves - we seem to be more eager to chase people out and prevent re-entry than keen to keep and hold people in our arms.

I would welcome solid arguments against my position. :)

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby brihaspati » 30 Aug 2009 23:56

premji and sukhdeoji,

I avoid using "Aryavarta" because most people do not interpret this in the sense I would like it to be interpreted - "Arya"=="civilized". I prefer to use the "Bharata" in the sense of Krishna's concept of a "dharmarajya" based on the subcontinent. I would also not accept everything claimed now to be part of the "Bharatyia" without a vicious deconstruction to see how far it is really derived from Bharatyia - and how much of it is not really a contribution of the Abrahamic. For example if someone claims that by-birth-superiority of a certain social category is part of "Bharatyia" then I will not accept this. For me, the key iconography used to justify this actually represents an alternative interpretation which has a very differnt fallout for society. Etc. Hopefully this clears your doubts as to my stance without going OT!

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby brihaspati » 01 Sep 2009 20:09

As the discussion is churning out on the Partition thread, nothing was "inevitable". Looking back at all the different viewpoints then existing, the arrangement of various groupings of political opinion and organizations and societal alignments, it does not become obvious as to why the Partition must have taken place. It almost looks like a Kafkaesque strand of unreality that happened almost by chance. All along the trajectory, individuals made certain choices out of several possible options, while a big portion of the population remained the silent majority with no active role unless as tossed by political waves of violence organized by determined minorities.

The worst possible scenario if the Partition demands by the British+Muslim League+"tired old men of Congress" were rejected by some determined minority claiming leadership of that part of the population which were against the Partition, was that a countrywide civil war broke out. Here the British officers would have sided with the pro-Partitionists, and a substantial Indian portion of BIA would have follwed their British masters loyally. But civil wars are not always determined by military training and superior weaponry on one side and lack of thse on the other side. A good portion of "non-violence" leadership would also help the British. But as was shown in the 1942 movement, once started popular movements against the British were increasingly showing tendencies of becoming independent and violent. These neuclei of violent, parallel governments, were suppressed only with the concurrence of the Congress leadership and the British state machinery.

But if the Congress sided with the British, then it would have lost all legitimacy in the civil war scenario. In the post war scenario, where the British were hard pressed financially to maintain their empire - a countrywide civil war where the majority population was against the British dance about Partition, and had taken up arms against the pro-Partitionists, would have gone against the British sooner or later. The only way they could stabilize the situation would have been by asking US help. This again could have been quite dicey with the more pressing cleanup operations in SE Asia.

The situation may not be that different as of now or in the foreseeable future. The Partition is an unfinished business, that has not only caused trauma for millions, but also sharpened divided on the subcontinent and preserved the neucleus of violent Islamic Jihad - for which the whole world now pays the price. The British will pay in any case for what they cynically and sadistically brought upon others - as sooner or later, the British will fall under Islam if it cannot shake off its almost erotic fixation with this branch of the Abrahamic, and continues to protect the Saudi and Pakistani establishments. But Bharat can reverse what happened in the Partition.

As of then, there will be a pro-Partition group that will form on both sides of the border. This group will be actively helped and supported by elements of British and US administration and secret services - with perhaps solid inputs from the PRC. A major portion of the existing armies of both nations will support this group. But if the populations realize that the policies of these groups in power are not removing the real causes of periodic, persistent Islamic Jihadi violence - and all posturings by these groups are essentially aimed at maintaining the sources of the divide that fuels Islamic Jihad, then and only then would the days of the pro-Partition lobby be numbered.

It may seem impossible that such level of homogeneous mobilization of the entire population can take place. But the current policies of all the components of the pro-Partition lobby are only making it worse every day. Islamic Jihad is getting stronger, more openly terroristic, and virulent against Indian common people.

Sooner or later, the population will be faced with the question of facing the prospect of a slow agonizing death by a thousand cuts as formulated in Jihad ("continuous relentless deceptive violence until the non-Muslim submits and surrenders all") and helped along by the policies of the pro-Partition group, or risking an all-out offensive to finish off the core of Jihadi violence as nurtured by the regimes which participated in and benefited from the Partition.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby sukhdeo » 01 Sep 2009 22:24

brihaspati wrote:Sooner or later, the population will be faced with the question of facing the prospect of a slow agonizing death by a thousand cuts as formulated in Jihad ("continuous relentless deceptive violence until the non-Muslim submits and surrenders all") and helped along by the policies of the pro-Partition group, or risking an all-out offensive to finish off the core of Jihadi violence as nurtured by the regimes which participated in and benefited from the Partition.



I think sooner rather than later. One tends to not notice great calamities or catastrophies coming. Even a people as smart as the Jews were lulled into a false sense of security based on the notion that all the Nazi talk of destruction of the Jews as early as the early 1930s was just talk to keep Nazis in power and will not really result in a genocide. Had they known, they would have exodused before the genocide rather than after the genocide. I for one, believe that we as Indians may not face something quite as dramatic or sudden, but we are, as you say, very close to a "slow agonizing death" of our culture. The people will survive, but only via conversion to one of the Abrahamnic religions, and within a generation or two you will start having forums on the internet to debate converting to which faith is better for Indians, Islam or Christianity ? The reason we are very close to the tipping point is that we have already had a thousand years or cuts and sometimes slashes and we at this point find ourselves totally fatigued and thus emotionally damaged after 1000 years of cuts, facing another indefinite decades of mahem and cuts.

Question is how do you propose to stop it ? Not what we think Govt of India should do or the BJP should do, or A Roy and Thapars and Barkha Dutts should do. These are all inconsequential, weak and intellectually and morally bankrupt entities who just appear powerful because of the current chaos in the country and the neighborhood. What exactly will you and I do about it ?

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby Prem » 01 Sep 2009 23:13

Sukhdeo,
First thing first , start calling the threat, problem with correct name and it opens up many ways to diagnose the issue and take preventive measure to stop the approaching mortal blow.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby sukhdeo » 01 Sep 2009 23:49

Prem wrote:Sukhdeo,
First thing first , start calling the threat, problem with correct name and it opens up many ways to diagnose the issue and take preventive measure to stop the approaching mortal blow.



Well said.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby brihaspati » 02 Sep 2009 03:17

sukhdeo wrote
Question is how do you propose to stop it ? Not what we think Govt of India should do or the BJP should do, or A Roy and Thapars and Barkha Dutts should do. These are all inconsequential, weak and intellectually and morally bankrupt entities who just appear powerful because of the current chaos in the country and the neighborhood. What exactly will you and I do about it ?


The first steps are making the people aware of the possibility. These things are not even allowed to be aired or debated on media. Even politicians or intellectuals one may expect to understand, will typically hold themselves back because of their other pressure points. So this means people without pre-existing obligations to particular parties or organizations or schools of organized thought are needed to at least air the issues. No doubt that many will try to drown such debates with cries of "Hindu right wing fascism", but ideas have a strange way of surviving if they have any relevance.

Some have labeled me as a dreamer and shown their preference for action. But for me, all action needs preparation. Even the most apparently dramatic and spontaneous of societal transitions need long actual preparation of "soil" in which the crop of transition will fruit. The first steps lie in posing the ideas and concepts to work their way through the nooks and crannies of the societal mind. Contrary to self-proclaimed action-men's representations, I have indeed tried out the "karma without expectation" intensively for most of my adolescence and early youth. But I still accept the basic principle of the Geeta, and I do not boast about my actions or what I still maintain as activity. I have tried out almost all methods of "action" except the violent and extremist one for I believe that is the last resort of the non-violent.

Action without preparing the people's mind for it, is in the end, useless - that is my conclusion from my rather colourful early life. The basic ideas first need to go int the public, the possibilities and the alternatives. The issues have to be connected to their immediate and medium term problems, hopes and dreams. Only then can we hope for success.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby RamaY » 02 Sep 2009 05:04

sukhdeo wrote:I think sooner rather than later...


sukhdeo-ji,

I am very glad to see your post. I have made up my mind that nothing can substitute action on the ground. So I started doing whatever little I can do in this endeavor. However, the ground reality is much complicated. I would like to share something I came across recently –

One of my colleague’s family is sheltering and taking care of ~40 tsunami effected orphans in South India. He requests for donations from other colleagues on a yearly basis, and I too pitched in whatever I could this year. I offered him additional monthly contribution, a reasonable amount, if he can arrange for the kids to recite Gayatri mantra 108 times and Mangalya Prarthana on a daily basis. The colleague promised to get back to me after checking with his family members. I am waiting for the response. Deep down I am hoping that he would demand a higher payment so he (and indirectly I) can better help the children in need.

The point here is the unexplainable hesitation (in my colleague) to do what is supposed to be very natural to our culture. My personal anguish is that I put a precondition, against my own dharma, for helping someone needy.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby surinder » 02 Sep 2009 05:43

brihaspati wrote:I have indeed tried out the "karma without expectation" intensively for most of my adolescence and early youth. But I still accept the basic principle of the Geeta, and I do not boast about my actions or what I still maintain as activity.


You have piqued my interest here. As someone who is trying (but not succeeding) to do action without expectation of result (Geeta & as explained by Sw. Vivekananda), I am curious if a scientific person has tried this approach and found it emperically better/useful/true. Can you share your experience about your experiment with it? Was it successful? Did it improve the quality of work? Did it reduce pain in the end? Is it a worthwhile approach in how to work?

(If it requires to give details that are too personal, you can ignore this question. If this is OT, you can email me.)

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby Prem » 02 Sep 2009 06:07

My impression is the actions need to be goal oriented but whatever the outcome , accounting, fruiting, tasting resposibility of actions rest with the Big Guy Up in Akash. Basically watch but dont touch it ( MC Hammer) You touch it, you keep it.

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Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Postby sukhdeo » 02 Sep 2009 09:23

RamaY wrote:
sukhdeo wrote:I think sooner rather than later...


sukhdeo-ji,

I am very glad to see your post. I have made up my mind that nothing can substitute action on the ground. So I started doing whatever little I can do in this endeavor. However, the ground reality is much complicated. I would like to share something I came across recently –

One of my colleague’s family is sheltering and taking care of ~40 tsunami effected orphans in South India. He requests for donations from other colleagues on a yearly basis, and I too pitched in whatever I could this year. I offered him additional monthly contribution, a reasonable amount, if he can arrange for the kids to recite Gayatri mantra 108 times and Mangalya Prarthana on a daily basis. The colleague promised to get back to me after checking with his family members. I am waiting for the response. Deep down I am hoping that he would demand a higher payment so he (and indirectly I) can better help the children in need.

The point here is the unexplainable hesitation (in my colleague) to do what is supposed to be very natural to our culture. My personal anguish is that I put a precondition, against my own dharma, for helping someone needy.



dont be so hard on yourself. You are a man of action, that to me is a rarity in India. A "Karamyogi". A true follower of Gita and Lord Krishna. The true message of Lord Krishna is "Action", not "slimy tactics", which he may have used once or twice during his very long life. The rest of his life is full of Action and Ethics.

As much as I like Brihispati, I dont approve of his caution on action. Normally and in the abstract what he says is true. But in the context of India, where there is a culture of just talk and no action, talking about caution and adequate preparation before action only feeds the "do nothings" and further reinforces the "no action" culture. Since the Indian gene for action is so rusty, at this point, even wrong action is better than no action. At least it will rejuvinate the "action gene" within our DNA, exercise it a little bit and prepare it for "right" action.

I dont believe you did anything wrong by imposing some fatherly discipline on those kids. Nothing you wouldnt do to your own kids and I say this as a non-believer, so thats how right you are.


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