Discussion on Indian Special Forces

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 12 Aug 2009 02:25

Raja Bose wrote:
Rahul M wrote: ...
Those yellow visors posted by shameekg look similar to the GSG9 ones - do they offer protection against 9mm rounds (if so, at what distance)?

The NIJ Level IIIA rated face Masks posted by Drevin and rkhanna earlier seem to be better than the visors worn by the GIGN in that video.

SanjibGhosh · Post by **SanjibGhosh** » 13 Aug 2009 17:50

SanjibGhosh wrote:http://www.salute.co.in/180409/feat_Ban ... 20Dum.html

A tribute to major Mohit Sharma and his men of Special Forces (para 1) who led down their life in Kupwara on 21 March 2009. I new Major Mohit Sharma as a gallantry award winner brave heart and one of the finest officer in Indian army. I new him as his brother is my friend and colleague and working for same organization over nine years.

Major Mohit Sharma get Ashok Chakra posthumously.

Govt declares chakra awards for bravery
http://www.zeenews.com/news555108.html

Mitu · Post by **Mitu** » 28 Aug 2009 12:57

Hello all,

I am an active milsimmer, and my current project is to create an accurate impression of the modern Indian Para Commando. I've been able to locate information on the uniform and weaponry, but that's about it. I'm hoping someone can provide me with more insights on their other equipment, such as boots, load bearing equipment, magazine pouches, etc. (and also if these items can be purchased somewhere).

Thanks!

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 28 Aug 2009 13:32

Long overdue: Mumbai Cops get a grip on hi-tech guns

Mumbai: The wait is finally over for the city police. After getting flak for using outdated arms to counter terrorists in the 26/11 attacks, the officials have received the first lot of modern weapons and equipment that were on their wish list.
At a function at the Naigaum police headquarters in Parel on Thursday, the police officers displayed the sophisticated arms they have procured.

Bought mainly from the US and Germany, the new weapons include MP5, MP9 and colt firearms. "Earlier, we used pistols, SLRs and AK-47s. These modern weapons, which were till now only used by the paramilitary forces, are now also with the city police," said Himanshu Roy, joint commissioner of police, law and order.

According to police chief D Sivanandhan, post 26/11 attacks, immediate measures were taken to ensure the city police were well-equipped to deal with emergency situations. "We have ensured that we get the best weapons for our men. We have procured a few and will get more in the future," Sivanandhan said.

State home minister Jayant Patil, who was also present at the function, said he was impressed by the policemen's dedication and willingness to be part of the First Time Responders (FTR) of the Mumbai police.

"Several officers willingly come forward to be a part of the team. This shows the love for their country. They will be entitled for double salary; working in the FTR will also bolster their confidence," he said.

Eye on terror
Sub machine gun MP5 SD4
Sub machine gun MP5K Navy
Sub machine gun A5
Bullet-proof helmets
Bullet-proof jackets
COLT M4 Flattop Carbine 5.56 mm
MP9 Tactical Machine Pistol (semi-automatic)
COLT M203
Under barrel grenade launcher
M82 Law Enforcement rifle
Mine-proof Marksman
Bullet-proof Rakshak
Combat Mobile
Light-armed vehicle

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 28 Aug 2009 18:46

^^ It is not mentioned anywhere but I hope they have a good training schedule set up.

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 29 Aug 2009 01:36

^^^ this should take care of it
http://www.mid-day.com/news/2009/aug/28 ... -Patil.htm

Overlook the chest thumping part of it. Atleast the head of police knows the value of human component in the whole equation

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 29 Aug 2009 09:23

^ Honestly I did not much like the article. It is almost seperating the 'Marathi' person and state from the rest of the country. It implies that NSG commandos do a 'routine' job! He should remember the two NSG men who laid down their lives were from India and not Mumbai. I would be glad if their standards were equal to the NSG, but 30 mins!!!
And I believe an attack on Mumbai is an attack on the country and not the city/state. There should be no effort made to seperate the two.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 29 Aug 2009 09:36

Agree. To say that locals will have edge because of comparable training and weapons added with familiarity with the city if one thing.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 29 Aug 2009 10:22

He was perhaps trying to highlight the emotional aspect in defending one's Matrubhoomi which according to him adds to the resolve to fight the pigs. In that case, they must try and induct as many SS and MNS hooligans as possible.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 29 Aug 2009 10:55

Its raining commandos in Mumbai these days

Central Railway gets specially trained RPF commandos

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 30 Aug 2009 08:36

The report says they are armed with the INSAS. Dont see any in the pics though. DDMitis strikes again?

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 30 Aug 2009 10:50

^^^
It even says they DO NOT have bullet proof jackets. I can spot 2 BPJs in the first pic.

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 31 Aug 2009 10:31

shameekg wrote:^ Honestly I did not much like the article. It is almost seperating the 'Marathi' person and state from the rest of the country. It implies that NSG commandos do a 'routine' job! He should remember the two NSG men who laid down their lives were from India and not Mumbai. I would be glad if their standards were equal to the NSG, but 30 mins!!!
And I believe an attack on Mumbai is an attack on the country and not the city/state. There should be no effort made to seperate the two.

Initially I also felt the same. But then I saw the name of the guy "Commissioner D Sivanandan" - he is probably a 'Southy' himself. 30 mins is bull crap. If he is even an ordinary IQ person, he would know that compared to his pandus who are getting 30-40 day of Commandu training -the NSGs make a living out of the damn thing. They are regular Army guys who have seen action in J&K and NorthEast. In-fact I kind of empathise with the guy. He has to bring in the same pride in a bunch of pandus as is the pride in an Army regular. Imagine a person who has been getting up in mornings looking for a source of 'chai-paani' is now required to get up with alertness of a cat and is supposed to put his life at stake if anything like 26/11 again happens.!! That is a BIG switch. And the commissionar is the guy responsible to bringing this shift.

30 minute and all is just 'psycho' ops for a good cause. Give it to the man . IMHO.

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 31 Aug 2009 12:37

^^^
It even says they DO NOT have bullet proof jackets. I can spot 2 BPJs in the first pic.

Are u sure those are bpj's. not too clear to make out depth of jackets.

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 31 Aug 2009 13:10

Hopefully after december these AK's will replaced by our own MSMC. These SWAT like commando units are perfect customers for carbines....

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 31 Aug 2009 14:43

Drevin wrote:
^^^
It even says they DO NOT have bullet proof jackets. I can spot 2 BPJs in the first pic.
Are u sure those are bpj's. not too clear to make out depth of jackets.

Check the first pic that has the train in it - the two guys behind the front two. They surely have the police-type BPJ

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 31 Aug 2009 19:33

Drevin wrote:
^^^
It even says they DO NOT have bullet proof jackets. I can spot 2 BPJs in the first pic.
Are u sure those are bpj's. not too clear to make out depth of jackets.

Yes, they seem like BPJs to me. What else can they be?
And isn't it funny that only TWO of the jawans are wearing BPJs and the rest are not?

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 31 Aug 2009 19:42

What is wrong with our Government? Why does everybody from commandos to police have to wear these army style BPJ. The same happened with NSG during 26/11.

They are wearing black dress...they should have black BPJ. I mean it's a common sense. Why can't our commandos put some effort to look good.

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 31 Aug 2009 23:40

sunny y wrote:What is wrong with our Government? Why does everybody from commandos to police have to wear these army style BPJ. The same happened with NSG during 26/11.

They are wearing black dress...they should have black BPJ. I mean it's a common sense. Why can't our commandos put some effort to look good.

Coz the commandos don't decide what to wear...the powers that be make the decisions...the CAG approves the procurement...then the OFB messes it up even further...and we go playing Ringa ringa roses....

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 31 Aug 2009 23:46

Why can't our commandos put some effort to look good.

why should they ?
decent uniforms and gear common to all members of force, reliable weapons, that I can understand.

but looking good ? are they models ?

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 31 Aug 2009 23:57

why should they ?
decent uniforms and gear common to all members of force, reliable weapons, that I can understand.

but looking good ? are they models ?

I basically meant the same thing like decent uniforms, proper protective gear etc.

I seriously don't want them to spend their time in beauty parlour instead of shooting range.......

Why can't our commandos put some effort to look good.

Yes I agree that was not the right statement......the actual problem lies with the agencies.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 31 Aug 2009 23:57

sunny y wrote:What is wrong with our Government? Why does everybody from commandos to police have to wear these army style BPJ. The same happened with NSG during 26/11.

They are wearing black dress...they should have black BPJ. I mean it's a common sense. Why can't our commandos put some effort to look good.

sunny y,

Dont go by pics of TFTA kamandus from Western countries in menacing black dress - they are mostly posed and for PR purposes. India lags behind big time in such chest thumping endeavours (we have to dump such Gandhian tendencies but what to do ...we are SDRE onlee). You can see the massive difference in pics of TFTA troops which are posed and which are taken under op. conditions (for example when they are wounded) - in India most pics you see are taken under op. conditions hence, they look more SDRE, dirty, grimy with personalized mods which dont look "prim and propah"

Looking good is not a criteria for operational success (it does help in some feel-good psy-ops) but having good quality and uniformity of equipment is. It is true that the NSG was lacking in this during 26/11 - a lot of their equipment was Black Thunder vintage till recently.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 01 Sep 2009 00:09

and it's a fact that most SF except the most pampered ones forage for gear and are allowed some latitude in choosing their items, unlike line forces.

spet natz units for example, which had a stellar reputation in afghanistan had to hunt around for proper boots. they frequently used stuff bought from black market !

and this is one of their shots, preparing before an operation

don't look too shiny do they ?

and yet their record was extraordinary !

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 01 Sep 2009 00:15

Rahul M wrote:and it's a fact that most SF except the most pampered ones forage for gear and are allowed some latitude in choosing their items, unlike line forces.

That includes the super-duper SAS who had to make their own claymores from icecream tubs and forage for MREs

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 01 Sep 2009 01:36

This is an interesting discussion. At first glance, "looking good" factor may seem childish. But one cannot deny their value for psy-ops. I bet that if a poll is conducted amond Indian general public (pitting IA para against any western police swat team), nearly all will vote for the latter. Not every citizen is a jingo which researches the history of para. In fact very few do. Their only source of info is fed to them through Hollywood movies and carefully taken PR photos. Compare that to our SDRE commandos.

I myself am ashamed to admit that when I was a kid, I really felt ashamed of how our army looked. My opinion was that IA won wars because they were pitted against even worst looking Pakistani army. I did not think much of our army as compared to western forces. And the most shocking thing is that I am myself from army background! So if I could be naive enough to think that, consider how an average Indian, who has no contact with army, would think?

So while commandos posing in front of cameras is childish, it's importance is perhaps under appreciated in our forces.

And its not like we cannot take good PR photos when we need to. Look at the photo where a para is performig a HALO jump. Or the recent garud photos taken at aero india by kedar. But apart from those, there is certainly much left to be desired as far as our psy ops are concerned.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 01 Sep 2009 01:49

^^^ Reason is two fold:
1) Inherent lack of show-off in us Yindoo SDREs - just compare a desi with a amirkhan when it comes to smooth confident presentations and beating one's own drum in front of an audience.

2) DDM with no idea of what they need to shoot and no knowledge of anything military related (except Hollywood) - Kedar shot such pics coz he is a jingo. He knows what to shoot and how to do it well. Our DDM have no such skills, brains or inclination - compare that to the Western press articles about their own forces.

Psy Ops and projecting positive images/propaganda is one area us SDREs are truly lacking in.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 01 Sep 2009 08:48

What worries me more than the fact that they dont 'look good' is the idea of sending them out there before they are fully equipped. The report says they are awaiting the BPJ, and I am guessing it is due to this that only one or two have them. I feel they should be sent out only when they are completely equipped to do their job. Even if it means BPJs which do not match. It is their lives on the line after all.

koti · Post by **koti** » 01 Sep 2009 09:28

Dmurphy wrote:Long overdue: Mumbai Cops get a grip on hi-tech guns
Mumbai: The wait is finally over for the city police. After getting flak for using outdated arms to counter terrorists in the 26/11 attacks, the officials have received the first lot of modern weapons and equipment that were on their wish list.
At a function at the Naigaum police headquarters in Parel on Thursday, the police officers displayed the sophisticated arms they have procured.

Bought mainly from the US and Germany, the new weapons include MP5, MP9 and colt firearms. "Earlier, we used pistols, SLRs and AK-47s. These modern weapons, which were till now only used by the paramilitary forces, are now also with the city police," said Himanshu Roy, joint commissioner of police, law and order.

According to police chief D Sivanandhan, post 26/11 attacks, immediate measures were taken to ensure the city police were well-equipped to deal with emergency situations. "We have ensured that we get the best weapons for our men. We have procured a few and will get more in the future," Sivanandhan said.

State home minister Jayant Patil, who was also present at the function, said he was impressed by the policemen's dedication and willingness to be part of the First Time Responders (FTR) of the Mumbai police.

"Several officers willingly come forward to be a part of the team. This shows the love for their country. They will be entitled for double salary; working in the FTR will also bolster their confidence," he said.

Eye on terror
Sub machine gun MP5 SD4
Sub machine gun MP5K Navy
Sub machine gun A5
Bullet-proof helmets
Bullet-proof jackets
COLT M4 Flattop Carbine 5.56 mm
MP9 Tactical Machine Pistol (semi-automatic)
COLT M203
Under barrel grenade launcher
M82 Law Enforcement rifle
Mine-proof Marksman
Bullet-proof Rakshak
Combat Mobile
Light-armed vehicle

Why did we opt for M4 when many nations are dropping this rifle for better weapons like MTAR, HK-416 etc.
What is the use of MP9 that too in semi-auto.(MSMC??)
COLT M203 is a UBGL.
What are the first three items in the list? The flavours of HK-MP5 ??

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 01 Sep 2009 10:02

Rahul M wrote:..

don't look too shiny do they ? and yet their record was extraordinary !

Rahul M, can you please provide any online link to read about the above? It would be very educating to read about Spetnaz ops in Afghanistan.

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 01 Sep 2009 10:14

Raja Bose wrote:^^^ Reason is two fold:
1) Inherent lack of show-off in us Yindoo SDREs - just compare a desi with a amirkhan when it comes to smooth confident presentations and beating one's own drum in front of an audience.

2) DDM with no idea of what they need to shoot and no knowledge of anything military related (except Hollywood) - Kedar shot such pics coz he is a jingo. He knows what to shoot and how to do it well. Our DDM have no such skills, brains or inclination - compare that to the Western press articles about their own forces.

Psy Ops and projecting positive images/propaganda is one area us SDREs are truly lacking in.

Pardon my going on a tangent here but this trait of not doing our things properly and passing it off as 'we are like this only' is the same as the 'chalta hai' attitude that we get to see in ALL aspect of our Indian lives. Whether it is throwing garbage half in-half out of bin or making a corporate presentation, we just dont get our act right. No wonder, inspite of having the best of the brains in the world we are yet far behind than the west.

I really admire the West to the attention to detail that those guys display. In an urban set up, it is EXTREMELY important as to what image you portray not because you have to be media savvy but because getting the confidence of the local population is THE important thing to do!! It is like the guerilla warfare where the guerilla HAS to mix with the population to achieve his ultimate mission.

The precision of thought and execution is what we must learn. Today the SDRE has to learn these things for it also shows the orientation and capability of his mind also. Our BPJs and dress dont match -just shows the fu*king mess up of our Govt procurement where I am sure the guy who buys the 'cloth' is different from the guy who buys the 'jacket'. We must change this. I have seen the modern Spetsnaz photographs and they look as dapper (or even more) than the western counter part.

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 01 Sep 2009 10:50

While roaming on the WWW for Spetsnaz, came across this
http://militera.lib.ru/research/suvorov6/01.html

"Every infantryman in the Soviet Army carries with him a small spade. When he is given the order to halt he immediately lies flat and starts to dig a hole in the ground beside him. In three minutes he will have dug a little trench 15 centimetres deep, in which he can lie stretched out flat, so that bullets can whistle harmlessly over his head. The earth he has dug out forms a breastwork in front and at the side to act as an additional cover. If a tank drives over such a trench the soldier has a 50% chance that it will do him no harm....."

New thingy for me.

Indrajit · Post by **Indrajit** » 01 Sep 2009 11:08

If anyone come accross the movie Unit9 you can have a fantastic idea how the Spetsnatz operated in Afghanistan,this trench digging thingy is shown as a part of their training,in 15 seconds a recruit have to dig a trench for himself before the tank passes over him,awesome!

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 01 Sep 2009 11:16

^^^ Thanks Indrajit. Will try to get hold of this movie.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 01 Sep 2009 11:24

VikB wrote:While roaming on the WWW for Spetsnaz, came across this
http://militera.lib.ru/research/suvorov6/01.html

"Every infantryman in the Soviet Army carries with him a small spade. When he is given the order to halt he immediately lies flat and starts to dig a hole in the ground beside him. In three minutes he will have dug a little trench 15 centimetres deep, in which he can lie stretched out flat, so that bullets can whistle harmlessly over his head. The earth he has dug out forms a breastwork in front and at the side to act as an additional cover. If a tank drives over such a trench the soldier has a 50% chance that it will do him no harm....." New thingy for me.

I remember that quote. Its from one of Viktor Suvorov's books on Spetznatz - if possible try and read his books on Spetznatz/GRU/KGB...interesting reading. The best one I liked was Aquarium.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 01 Sep 2009 15:19

shameekg wrote:What worries me more than the fact that they dont 'look good' is the idea of sending them out there before they are fully equipped. The report says they are awaiting the BPJ, and I am guessing it is due to this that only one or two have them. I feel they should be sent out only when they are completely equipped to do their job. Even if it means BPJs which do not match. It is their lives on the line after all.

And so are the people's lives. "Something is better than nothing" logic in play here. Do you mean to say the terrorists won't come out unless there are commandos around? They're not bullet magnets you know. The chances of people getting saved is more in their 'BPJless' presence than when they are not there at all.

koti wrote:What are the first three items in the list? The flavours of HK-MP5 ??

"the eye on terror" is a 'copy-paste' mistake.
MP5K-N: MP5K with "Navy" trigger group and 3-lug/threaded barrel for mounting suppressors or other muzzle attachments.
MP5SD4: No buttstock (endplate/receiver cap in place of buttstock), 3-round burst trigger group, integrated suppressor.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP5

Added later: You'll get to read about every gun in the list on wikipdedia/net.

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 01 Sep 2009 20:50

I completely agree that commandos performance is measured by his behavior in the field not by his looks. But sadly in this media friendly world PR skills & marketing are as important as your ability to aim a head shot.

Prajit rightly said that majority of the public will go for American police SWAT team instead of our Para's without having even a slightest idea about their on field capabilities. But who is to blame for that. If you are wearing proper uniform, with full protective gear & weapons then you will automatically look good. The sad thing is that you don't have to be a Einstien to do this. It is just common sense which our babus clearly lacks. If we go by the traditional meaning of good looks then I think every commando will have to be Dharmendera.

Not everybody understands the life of a soldier. Then how would you encourage youngsters to join Armed forces? This is where marketing comes. Majority of the public doesn't know or care about difference between Para's fighting skills & SWAT's, no matter how much we write about praising our guys.

How many people do you think would prefer any govt IT company over infosys or TCS or any othet MNC ? This despite the fact that govt. companies like C-DAC are more involved in research work whereas Infosys is in mere outsourcing. C-DAC of course has more talented people. This is because infosys is a brand today. When you compare a guy wearing suit with fat, lazy bunch of guys from MCD, the end result is obvious. If our engineers, banking professional working in MNC's have this luxury then why can't our soldiers.

Photos of Garud's from Aero India is a good start. Hopefully we will continue this effort.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 01 Sep 2009 21:08

1. Unit or company 9 was not sPetznaz in the movie - it represented 9th Company, 345th Guards Airborne Regiment
2. 15 seconds??? come on they are not supermen

Third - BRF is part of the public(well the hope is a little more enlitghtend - but sometimes I have serious doubts

eg. scooter helmet discussion) - if it bothers you so much about looks - do not blame the public.

Protection, gear is one thing - but looks???

The only looks that matter is that in some cases looking terrifying has a certain impact - but looking good is meaningless.

Being professional is more important.

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 01 Sep 2009 21:27

I take back my good looks statement. I basically meant professional.....

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 01 Sep 2009 22:12

Surya,
By saying "looking good", no one is implying that they want hetrosexual brad pitt commandos with long blond hair and shaved chests. The term "looking good" is perhaps misleading. More apt term would be "looking impressive". Just look at Hollywood movies and carefully taken Chinese PR pics of their commandos for Olympics and you will understand what we mean by "looking good".
Also do not insult BR by thinking that its members are naive enough to think that looks matter during action. We are just saying that not everyone is a jingo and is therefore not aware of our sp forces' illustrious history. An average citizen has nearly no understanding of military matters. Their opinions on all matters military are based upon Hollywood movies and PR pics.
Impressive looking forces gives confidence to the public about their protectors. And one can only underestimate the importance of public confidence at their own peril. All I am saying is that "looks" are important for psy-ops and I for one attach great value to psy-ops and through its extension "looks".

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 01 Sep 2009 22:38

If I may interject in this ‘looking good’ or ‘looking impressive’ discussion and give my two penny bit.

Looking good or looking impressive gives a sense of elan, éclat and a feel good feeling, not only to the individual, but more importantly, to the general public.

In my time, we all wanted to join the Armoured Corps because they had the fanciest of uniforms and they were so suave!

The others called the Armoured Corps disparagingly as ‘glamour boys’ of the Army! Maybe, it was because the grapes were sour?!

Notwithstanding that, what is important, is does whatever we have as dress and equipment increase efficiency? That is the nub of the issue.

If one can strike a balance that is the ideal!

While many BRF members are pragmatic, yet if one analyse issues, there is no doubt that there are many amongst us, who rave about impressive uniforms and good looking weapons and lament why the Indian Army looks so shabby and ill equipped in comparison. The great debates on combat dress and its camouflage and the Infantry weapons that does not look 'good' come to mind. There are on record and so I don’t have to elaborate.

I will only remind that the AK 47 looks lousy and plebeian, but the US in Iraq started using them, discarding their better looking weapons and gave good reviews!

All I will say is that Indian Army has to kit itself with the money available and be capable of meeting the threat envisaged. If they can do so, one should be satisfied.

While Rumsfeld is taken to be a comical man, yet, his words are rather deep in content, for instance:

As you know, you go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want or wish to have.

Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know