South India River Water Issues/Disputes

[Bade]

vina, language cannot be the sole arbiter for deciding on who came from where. Naturally being neighbours and mallus being more open to foreign ideas, tend to borrow words and replace existing ones. There are enough Portuguese words too which does not mean malayalam is derived from it. If there is one language it is derived from it certainly is Sanskrit.Other than that it is all a massive ego trip on part of Greater Tamil kind of motive.

Prem Naseer, Ummer and recently even Mamooty has tried to get a sense of their acceptance in to politics with little to show unlike in TN. That is proof enough that present day Mallus have nothing to do with TN, except in the fringe areas of TVM and Palaghat.

If TN is so cosmopolitan then why is it that MGR, JJ, Rajani and other outsiders have to get on the tamil bandwagon to be poster boys whereas numerous Pattars, Prabhus and Tulus keep their identity alive in Kerala. In terms of linguistic fundamentalism TN has no comparison among the southern states.

[paramu]

Acharya, face it. Just like any other place in India, Karanataka is diverse, very diverse in fact. I would rate the diversity within Karnakata higher than in places like TN, Kerala and Andhra. There are many distinct regions within Karnataka ( Konkan, Kodagu, Old Mysore State, Bangalore, Hyd-Karnataka, and Bombay-Karnataka). There is a north south "split" within Karnataka in terms of industrial development, wealth, irrigation and other things as well. The prosperous /more developed areas are the Old Mysore , Bangalore belt, along with Kodagu and Coastal Karanataka. Lets face it. Other than the extractive mineral based economy in Bellary, north Karnatataka is a black hole that sucks in taxes from others and spits out nothing in return, except for politicos (who, of course can stay where they come from , thanks, if anyone can help it).


Point is, all very happy family!. The problem (kabab mein haddi) is the politicos who and other "intellectual" busybodies (by this I mean, the usual, "buddhi jeevis" and "filmi" types ) who want a "protected" market for their "literary" and "cultural" goods, however good bad /it is. No sir, no going out in the open world and winning like my favorite man Rajinikanth or like Dr Rajkumar . Rajinikant is from Karnataka, while Rajkumar was from TN!.. Chew on that .

This "anti tamil force" in Bangalore is manufactured. It doesn't suit the Kannadiga genius and I always maintained that the Chaluvalis are wannabe "dravidian parties" (one of the innumerable kazhagams). Foggedabout it. The people of Karnataka are far better than that and deserve much better.

You have started to talk like Blore people about north Karnataka. Blore people neglected the rest of the state and it is a fact. Now first time a non-Blore CM is ruling who is going to change the order of priorities. So the differences within Ktaka is a normal Indian politics with one party having monopoly for 60 years. In certain districts like Chitradurga they have voted only for congress for 60 years without break. No wonder it is the most backward.
COming to the formation of the state there was tussle over which parts of Blore was to be given to Ktaka and there the demands of TN surfaced. I dont know all the history in the 50s but somebody should be able to find out. Blore mainly revolted against TN.

Now the present state of Karnataka, especially the prosperous parts (Old Mysore, Coastal Karnataka etc) were Always economically and socially a part of the surrounding states (duh..that is the reason why they are prosperous!). Bangalore is at the junction of 3 states (Karnataka, Andhra and TN) and the population naturally reflects that fact.

Independent education system started by the Mysore kingdom and high literacy created prosperity in these areas. Independent industries such as tile industry thrived for 500 years.

But TN has slowly started to lose its revenue districts from the peak during the British Raj first by Andhra Pradesh and then by Ktaka which created its own dynamics within the Dravida politics. British after Machalipatam in 1610 went to Madras and built the Ft George in 1750 as the base camp in the south. This was center from where they spread to all the areas to make the Madras presidency. But the British created sectarian and language politics and also sense of entitlement got infused into the dravida body politics from 1920s and after independence. But industrialization of TN will change the demand of the politics of TN and remove all these old demands in a positive way. TN political parties have changed their focus to industrialization but still have the old roots. They have maintained their contacts with the anglos of 1920s and with EJs creeping inside, there are changes coming.

Ktaka will change in its own way with industrialization in the hinterland and remove the pressure from Blore in 2 decades.

[vina]

this is a good explanation, there is a strong sense of entitlement in TN.

Dilli Billi , talking about other's sense of entitlement .Surely there is some huge irony here.

Classic case of pot calling the kettle black!

[vina]

vina, language cannot be the sole arbiter for deciding on who came from where. Naturally being neighbours and mallus being more open to foreign ideas, tend to borrow words and replace existing ones. There are enough Portuguese words too which does not mean malayalam is derived from it. If there is one language it is derived from it certainly is Sanskrit.Other than that it is all a massive ego trip on part of Greater Tamil kind of motive.

Ah Bade saar. Clutching at the straws definitely. No Portugese will be able to even remotely understand Mallu, how much every you borrowed from them. As for Sanskrit origin as the main source, I can absolutely bet that no Hindi speaker / any other language with roots in Sanskrit speaker can remotely follow Malayalam. However, a normal on the street Tamil guy can largely follow Malayalam the same vice versa. In fact, from what I know , most Mallu speakers follow spoken Tamil far better than Tamil speakers follow Mallu. They are mutually largely intelligible to each other. The problem for Mallu speakers come when the Karunandhi types come on TV and start talking in "literary" (pure..pure. cleansed of all "influences" Paki Tamil). So given that fact, where did Mallu and Tamil come from.. Portugese and Sanskrit or some proto language (call it Proto Tamil /Proto Mallu , pick your choice according to your poison).

If TN is so cosmopolitan then why is it that MGR, JJ, Rajani and other outsiders have to get on the tamil bandwagon to be poster boys whereas numerous Pattars, Prabhus and Tulus keep their identity alive in Kerala. In terms of linguistic fundamentalism TN has no comparison among the southern states.

Ah, MGR, JJ and Rajini are "political" figures who have to beat the drum. For ordinary folks on the street , none of that matters, there are huge communities of all types in TN (mallus, kannadigas, telugus) etc, living there for centuries. I would estimate the non ethnic tamil population in TN at close to 20%. Entire castes of Vaishyas are either Telugu or Kannada and they all speak their languagues ( Telungu for eg. (distinct from Andhra Telugu)) , though in census and every other purposes they are considered Tamils and identify themselves as so. This I am sure you will agree is exactly the way it should be!. They are really well integrated.

[Dileep]

Hmm, the vaishayas etc living in TN consider themselves Tamil. The TamBrahms living in Kerala ALSO consider themselves Tamil (So does the Telugus, Konks, Gujjus and sundry others keep their identity in Kerala) I wonder why?

Dhimmitude?

I know, vina is going to make a big post about the vishu kani, ona pookkaLam, onaThallu, hartal etc that is followed by his folks. Just like the liberal, equal opportunity, colourblind ideal society onlee.

[Raju]

vina, language cannot be the sole arbiter for deciding on who came from where. Naturally being neighbours and mallus being more open to foreign ideas, tend to borrow words and replace existing ones. There are enough Portuguese words too which does not mean malayalam is derived from it. If there is one language it is derived from it certainly is Sanskrit.Other than that it is all a massive ego trip on part of Greater Tamil kind of motive.

Prem Naseer, Ummer and recently even Mamooty has tried to get a sense of their acceptance in to politics with little to show unlike in TN. That is proof enough that present day Mallus have nothing to do with TN, except in the fringe areas of TVM and Palaghat.

If TN is so cosmopolitan then why is it that MGR, JJ, Rajani and other outsiders have to get on the tamil bandwagon to be poster boys whereas numerous Pattars, Prabhus and Tulus keep their identity alive in Kerala. In terms of linguistic fundamentalism TN has no comparison among the southern states.

All these are very relevant points.

yesterday I was set thinking that sets Kerala apart from all of South India by chance or by fate is that at the core Kerala is not insecure about its identity and thus there is that indomitable spirit that they shall not be ruled by anyone else nor will they let their core identity be stolen by anyone. Even the ancient Cheras who set away from their TN counterparts were due to this indomitable spirit, it probably starts with them.

Secondly at the upper strata of society, the Namboodiris with their 'Mana' are more Konkan/Kannada than Tamil and so are the Menon's, Nairs, Thiyyars of North who are more influenced by amalgam of Kannada/Chera cultures without any Tamil imprint whatsoever. Tamil imprint is only seen in districts around Trivandrum from where hnair and vina seem to have connections from.

[vina]

yesterday I was set thinking that sets Kerala apart from all of South India by chance or by fate is that at the core Kerala is not insecure about its identity and thus there is that indomitable spirit that they shall not be ruled by anyone else nor will they let their core identity be stolen by anyone. Even the ancient Cheras who set away from their TN counterparts were due to this indomitable spirit, it probably starts with them.

..

Write this 400000000000000 times.. Cheras were Tamil as an imposition.

Secondly at the upper strata of society, the Namboodiris with their 'Mana' are more Konkan/Kannada than Tamil and so are the Menon's, Nairs, Thiyyars of North who are more influenced by amalgam of Kannada/Chera cultures without any Tamil imprint whatsoever. Tamil imprint is only seen in districts around Trivandrum from where hnair and vina seem to have connections from.

Kannada/Chera cultures , sure. But why deny the big elephant in the room, namely Tamil ?. Sounds like a very Paki like " Not India" but wannabe Ayrab , kind of thing to me.

Truth be said, there is little /no "Kannada" influence in Kerala ( Konkan belt/Mangalorean yes, definitely ,but not Kannada as Mysore/Mandya or Northern Karnataka kind)

[vina]

Hmm, the vaishayas etc living in TN consider themselves Tamil. The TamBrahms living in Kerala ALSO consider themselves Tamil (So does the Telugus, Konks, Gujjus and sundry others keep their identity in Kerala) I wonder why?

Dhimmitude?

Nah. You are conflating long settled and integrated communities like TamBrahms in Kerala, Telugus /Kannadas in TN with newer arrivals like Gujjus and Telugus in Kerala (in fact there is a weaver community called Saurashtras in TN, who are originally from today's Gujarat, who speak "Saurashtra" and for all practical purposes are Tamil and enjoy OBC status).

What I mean is like in Idukki and places like Munnar. Officially everyone is Keralite and "lingusitic" minorities are close to zero. But dig deeper and you will see that all Tamils there are counted as Keralite . For eg, when I was vacationing in Munnar, I could speak proper Tamil with most of the folks who were obviously Tea Labor and were native there, sort of tribals in those parts. The only guys yelling in Mallu were the CPI-M types blaring out in microphones in their town hall meetings.

There is a difference between being a ethnic malayali and a keralite!. The Palghat and TVM/Allepey/Ernakulam TamBrahm aka "Pattars" are Keralites , but not ethnic malayali! .. Is'nt that kind of complex identity and "dualism" the kind of stuff that gives rise to sublime thought process leading to stuff like Advaita from Shankara ?

I know, vina is going to make a big post about the vishu kani, ona pookkaLam, onaThallu, hartal etc that is followed by his folks. Just like the liberal, equal opportunity, colourblind ideal society onlee.

I just love that equal opportunity color blind ideal society onree..

[Raju]

Truth be said, there is little /no "Kannada" influence in Kerala ( Konkan belt/Mangalorean yes, definitely ,but not Kannada as Mysore/Mandya or Northern Karnataka kind)

Boss, what is this ? We people are not supposed to have an opinion or outlook because vina boss has a fine blueprint for all of South India. LOL

What I mean is like in Idukki and places like Munnar. Officially everyone is Keralite and "lingusitic" minorities are close to zero. But dig deeper and you will see that all Tamils there are counted as Keralite . For eg, when I was vacationing in Munnar, I could speak proper Tamil with most of the folks who were obviously Tea Labor and were native there, sort of tribals in those parts. The only guys yelling in Mallu were the CPI-M types blaring out in microphones in their town hall meetings.

Kannan Thevar ~ Kannan Devan

a lot of those hill tribes around Munnar are from TN. This is open knowledge, they are Keralites because they stay in Kerala. What is the big mystery ?

The Palghat and TVM/Allepey/Ernakulam TamBrahm aka "Pattars" are Keralites

Yes, they were always Keralites of Tamil background. What is the complication ?

[Nayak]

~~~Kannan Devan ?

A heavy-eye-browed pyt serving tea to a macho looking guy wearing lungi in freezing temperatures ?

That's the ad which comes to my mind.

There is a difference between being a ethnic malayali and a keralite!. The Palghat and TVM/Allepey/Ernakulam TamBrahm aka "Pattars" are Keralites , but not ethnic malayali! .. Is'nt that kind of complex identity and "dualism" the kind of stuff that gives rise to sublime thought process leading to stuff like Advaita from Shankara ?

This is all sounding confusing to me. Thankfully, stereotypes come to the rescue.

[vina]

What I mean is like in Idukki and places like Munnar. Officially everyone is Keralite and "lingusitic" minorities are close to zero. But dig deeper and you will see that all Tamils there are counted as Keralite . For eg, when I was vacationing in Munnar, I could speak proper Tamil with most of the folks who were obviously Tea Labor and were native there, sort of tribals in those parts. The only guys yelling in Mallu were the CPI-M types blaring out in microphones in their town hall meetings.

Kannan Thevar ~ Kannan Devan

a lot of those hill tribes around Munnar are from TN. This is open knowledge, they are Keralites because they stay in Kerala. What is the big mystery ?

They are not "from" present day TN , but that is where they are from (big difference you would agree). They are not Keralites because they "stay" in Kerala, but because Kerala state includes their homes.

See, this goes to the root of the Mullaiperiyar/Periyar problem. If someone things Kerala == Malayali and TN == ethnic tamil, then it is intractable. What if TN starts putting stuff like all Tamils in one state (kind of logic used by Germany in WW II ) and says headlands of Mullaiperiyar and catchment areas part should belong to TN !

It is ridiculous to pretend that India and states within India are such black and white / light and day / 0 and 1 kind of situations. Sure when the division of states happened , all states did the right thing and decent thing in embracing all sort of folks who lived within their borders. The alternative would have been a terrible Paki like population exchange scheme. It is very messy on the ground dude. There is a common history going back to god knows how for all the neighboring states in today's India.

Now the current states in India have "near sovereign" power , but to forget history and the fact that all states are less than 50 odd years in their current form and pretend that "solutions" of yesteryears which turned into "problems" of today can be solved by " state rights exclusivity " jingogiri is not going to work.

That is why stuff like X % of Kaveri flows in Karnataka and so they should get Y% of water without heed to history of the basin and how stuff was ; or this thing about "TN using all water in Mullaiperiyar" without reference to history (I agree with the safety part though .. safety of the structure should be beyond doubt and if need be a new dam can be built, but for that you need to separate water politics from safety, only then can sensible decisions be made) is crazy..

[shaardula]

deleted. will not be able to discuss. time.

[SwamyG]

That book is all one sided propaganda that will put PRC to shame. Tamil lands from west to eastern shores...with maps. Where are the tamil inscriptions in stone on the western shores...where are the ruins of tamil architecture on the western shores...where is the hint of a tamil pysche anywhere in the population of present day kerala be they namboodiris or a pulayan....keep dreaming of a non existent tamil empire....from coast to coast.

I grant that every author has his/her prejudices, and possibly an agenda. The question is is the author's 'propaganda' backed by facts. Sometimes it is plain old lie, sometimes it has a mix of truth and lies, and sometimes plain old truth. Having not lived in those times, we have to resort to the information from these books and authors. You must have noticed that book was published in 1904, well before the Justice Party was formed, and the self-respect movement kicked off. So at least the book does not derive its basis from Periyar and his accomplices. I think 1920s was when those movements started gaining strength.

Ok, if you don't like V.Kanakasabhai, I will give you a quote from - K.A.Nilakanta Sastri's "A History of South India: From Prehistoric Times to the Fall of Vijayanagar". Even KAN has his "issues". He aligns with the view of aryanisation or sanskritization of the south.
Chapter: Literature {Pages 376-377}

Malayalam was the last of the South Indian languages to develop a separate existence and a literature of its own. In the Sangam age, the present Malaylam area was a land of Tamil speech though grammarians recognized that the dialect of the mountain country deviated from standard Tamil in many ways. The Sangam literature contains many words and expressions that survive in Malayalam today thought they have gone out of use in Tamil. Attempts to derive Malayalam from Sanskrit or to postulate for it an origin independent alike of Sanskrit and Tamil are clearly misplaced, and there can be no doubt that it was a natural growth through centuries from the form of 'Kodum-Tamil' that prevailed in Kerala at the beginning of the Christian era. The literary idiom of Malayalam, like that of Kannada and Telugu, borrowed freely from Sanskrit, and in order to express the Sanskrit sounds adequately, it had to discard the old Vatteluttu script and evolve a new script based on Tamil-grantha. This happened perhaps about the tenth century or a little later. The early inscriptions of the country used the grantha script for Sanskrit words in the midst of Tamil and Malayalam written in Vatteluttu.

[SwamyG]

I wonder that is the case when they are the ones to suffer the most from the dravida movement and they should be siding with their aryan cousins. It must be becuz they know their interests are inextricably linked with their ethnic kinsmen and they are losing the initiative they gained during the british days....and Stockholm syndrome too.

The Tamilian Brahmins get shafted from all sides , sometimes rightly sometimes wrongly. There are lots of cases where non-brahmin tamilian communities look upon the Tambrams with an element of distrust - "like you are not one of us; you are from the outside." Yet other tamilians who dislike the Sanskritization of tamil, say "you are not one of us, because you don't support us". Then we have the rest of India - mostly the North Indians treating them as just "Madrasis". Sadly to some northies all South Indians are "Madrasis".

Well cultures have memories, just like people. But people's memories seem to be easily swayed by, whatever be it - the southern India was well connected. The kingdoms did not exist in isolation. Pallava Kings influenced the Tamilians, so did the Chola kings the Kannadigas, Keralites and Telugus. So did the Chalukyas on the rest of the South Indian crowd. Kingdoms and dynasties played important roles.

As they say in India - Unity in diversity. We can slice all we want to show how different we are from each other, and dice all we want to show how similar we are.

[Theo_Fidel]

Just to point out TN is just as diverse as the rest of India.

The Tamil we speak near Kanya Kumari is a mix of Mullu & Tamil.

Some of my friends from the Dharmapuri area who claim to speak 'Szen' Tamil
have a hard time understanding me.

For instance water is is 'Thaneer' for me whilst it is 'Thanni' for them.

This whole Kaveri water thing is hardly an issue around here.

So don't assume that all Tamils are on the same page on this one.

[hnair]

Secondly at the upper strata of society, the Namboodiris with their 'Mana' are more Konkan/Kannada than Tamil and so are the Menon's, Nairs, Thiyyars of North who are more influenced by amalgam of Kannada/Chera cultures without any Tamil imprint whatsoever. Tamil imprint is only seen in districts around Trivandrum from where hnair and vina seem to have connections

Entammacheeee......... "Aaanarable menshuns in desspatches"?

Nayak, dont mess with "da lungaaay". And kannan devan ads too

[SSridhar]

Union Power Minister proposes 4 hydel power projects across Cauvery

Hope the concerned states do not create impediments and the projects come to fruition.

[svinayak]

“State not standing in the way of Kannada getting classical status”

Special Correspondent

CHENNAI: The Tamil Nadu Government on Sunday denied reports that it was standing in the way of Kannada getting the classical language status.

Regretting and condemning the report, an official release said the attempt to create a conflict between Tamil Nadu and Karnataka would never succeed.
Recommendations

“The Centre goes by the recommendations of a committee of experts while taking a decision on conferring the classical language status on a language. The Tamil Nadu Government has no say in this decision,” the government said.

The government also made it clear that it had nothing to do with a Public Interest Litigation petition filed in the Madras High Court, seeking a fresh committee for considering the status for Kannada and Telugu.

[ramana]

Who are on such Committees? The reason is classical status for Telugu is hanging fire for many years. Seems to be a political decision and nothing to do with merits of the case. I wanted to know the committee composition to see if the usual suspects were packed in it. A recent Telugu leader of the INC assured me in late June that decision was soon coming when I asked the status of the issue. Off course he probably was waiting for Committee decision

[vina]

I could never understand what this hoo haa about "Classical Status" is all about. Surely languages like Kannada and Telugu are way beyond and higher than tags that the Govt of India or anyone can give them or dont give them. For heavens sakes, these are living languages with a long history, literature, poetry and prose going back to a millennium at least . Why are the politicos and self appointed "intellectuals" (aka.."buddhijeevis" surely there is a great deal of irony here, I dont see much evidence of buddhi in such jeevis) so insecure and uncomfortable in their skin that they have to be so stuck up on irrelevant tags from the govt and they have to hunt for the fishes and loves of official patronage and office.

This entire thing reeks of "sarkari" patronage. Something like the Sangeeth Natak Akademi and other govt rubbish.

Can anyone tell me here, what is this "classical" status about and what do you gain if a language "x" is granted classical status and what happens if it isn't? Other than to self appointed "buddi jeevis" it seems totally irrelevant to me.

[shaardula]

hi ramana,
since mysore is home to the language institute you get to hear about this quite a lot in the local paper. KA-TE scholars have been coordinating efforts for a while now.

2 TA scholars in the selection committee. while all other 'metrics' have been met recommendations are what it is hanging on. one ta scholar is particularly putting in a lot of leg. at one time he said, ta is older than mankind (paraphrase) he basically made a hyper exaggerated claim about ta's antiquity while legging in KA-TE. that got a lot of scholars riled up. two guys went public with the protest and that is how it is public domain. nobody has raised any questions about the other TA scholar in committee. but this problematic character's name keeps cropping up now and then.

i dunno if the current protest is related to it. i am sorry at this point i have no saved articles. and i need to run.

the status comes backed with solid grants, chairs in important universities around the country and other raja-aashraya. this is not a new phenomena and should not be sneezed at. that is how literature and language have survived. baring the chief architect nobody remembers the engineers of aihole or pattadkal or hampi. bhaskarachaarya people known few of his students, and very few of the artisans who produced steel and did magic with chemistry. but alasaani peddanna, jakkanna, allama prabhu, kumara vyasa, chamarasa, tenali ramakrushna, thimmakka etc etc are known to this day more importantly their works are known to this day. all of them received royal patronage aka raajaaashraya. and note not all of them were brahmins.(in case some marxist barges in) and 99% of these guy's are not known for their encomiums to the kings.

in any case, beyond the *woods, arts is a legitimate vocation. in the west they have tenures, and research grants not to mention foundation grants. why not here? its an academic and scholarly endeavor. more the merrier.how are you going to give raksha to bharatha if you are not going to take care of its languages and its scholars?

all native languages of india should receive this patronage. nothing special about the languages already considered and others that are in the pipeline. they should take out this classical tag and intead call it native language studies.

[Arya Sumantra]

Interesting how the discussion here is about the language when the topic is about river water

[Javee]

Even the ancient Cheras who set away from their TN counterparts were due to this indomitable spirit, it probably starts with them.

Write this 400000000000000 times.. Cheras were Tamil as an imposition.

Huh, Cheras are not a part of Tamil kingdom ?? Whats next Tamil Sangham never existed?? A crash course on Silapathikaram would set it right. I'm from Karur, supposedly the capital of Cheran Senguttuvan (This name is still common in our area). Add to that the numerous stone inscriptions, seals and coins found in Karur.
http://www.tamilartsacademy.com/books/r ... ter17.html
http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2013/ ... 207100.htm
http://karsha.org/ViewAll.aspx?RulerID=SANGAM

Also as for references that Kongu Tamil can be identified with Kannada, I highly doubt it. As a native Kongu Tamil speaker the SI language that's easy for us is Malayalam.

[Javee]

I wonder that is the case when they are the ones to suffer the most from the dravida movement and they should be siding with their aryan cousins. It must be becuz they know their interests are inextricably linked with their ethnic kinsmen and they are losing the initiative they gained during the british days....and Stockholm syndrome too.

The Tamilian Brahmins get shafted from all sides , sometimes rightly sometimes wrongly. There are lots of cases where non-brahmin tamilian communities look upon the Tambrams with an element of distrust - "like you are not one of us; you are from the outside." Yet other tamilians who dislike the Sanskritization of tamil, say "you are not one of us, because you don't support us". Then we have the rest of India - mostly the North Indians treating them as just "Madrasis". Sadly to some northies all South Indians are "Madrasis".

Thats so true, but I think the distrust is coz of the historical baggage and the DK policies. IMO the tam brams will/should start fighting for reservation in 10-15 years

P.S I'm not a tam bram.

[Krita]

vina, language cannot be the sole arbiter for deciding on who came from where. Naturally being neighbours and mallus being more open to foreign ideas, tend to borrow words and replace existing ones. There are enough Portuguese words too which does not mean malayalam is derived from it. If there is one language it is derived from it certainly is Sanskrit.Other than that it is all a massive ego trip on part of Greater Tamil kind of motive.

Ah Bade saar. Clutching at the straws definitely. No Portugese will be able to even remotely understand Mallu, how much every you borrowed from them. As for Sanskrit origin as the main source, I can absolutely bet that no Hindi speaker / any other language with roots in Sanskrit speaker can remotely follow Malayalam. However, a normal on the street Tamil guy can largely follow Malayalam the same vice versa. In fact, from what I know , most Mallu speakers follow spoken Tamil far better than Tamil speakers follow Mallu. They are mutually largely intelligible to each other. The problem for Mallu speakers come when the Karunandhi types come on TV and start talking in "literary" (pure..pure. cleansed of all "influences" Paki Tamil). So given that fact, where did Mallu and Tamil come from.. Portugese and Sanskrit or some proto language (call it Proto Tamil /Proto Mallu , pick your choice according to your poison). The only thing we share with Tamilinadu is our border.

If TN is so cosmopolitan then why is it that MGR, JJ, Rajani and other outsiders have to get on the tamil bandwagon to be poster boys whereas numerous Pattars, Prabhus and Tulus keep their identity alive in Kerala. In terms of linguistic fundamentalism TN has no comparison among the southern states.

Ah, MGR, JJ and Rajini are "political" figures who have to beat the drum. For ordinary folks on the street , none of that matters, there are huge communities of all types in TN (mallus, kannadigas, telugus) etc, living there for centuries. I would estimate the non ethnic tamil population in TN at close to 20%. Entire castes of Vaishyas are either Telugu or Kannada and they all speak their languagues ( Telungu for eg. (distinct from Andhra Telugu)) , though in census and every other purposes they are considered Tamils and identify themselves as so. This I am sure you will agree is exactly the way it should be!. They are really well integrated.

Please pardon me for the necro. But, as a Keralite (I hate the term mallu) I have got to comment on this. Yes, We understand Tamil but barely. Malayalam has more number of Sanskrit words than Tamil thats the reason Tamilians can't understand Malayalam very well. Unlike Tamils, we did not flush out the sanskrit words. Keralites have never believed in the stupid Dravidian theory and my ancestors strongly resented the pretender CP Ramaswamy's Dravidanadu dreams. We are different from Tamils in every aspect whether it is caste, food habits, gods, you name them. Hindi speakers won't be able to understand Malayalam cos there is very little Sanskrit in Hindi. But, i assure you as a Keralite that we happen to pick up Sanskrit quite easily. I don't dislike Tamils but I hate it when they try to own us by forcing on us the Tamil origins of Malayalam and Tamil influence on our culture, in truth it is little to none.

[Skanda]

Can anyone tell me here, what is this "classical" status about and what do you gain if a language "x" is granted classical status and what happens if it isn't? Other than to self appointed "buddi jeevis" it seems totally irrelevant to me.

Vina, AFAIK, the biggest hoopala why the Govts are so keen in demanding the classical status is for a variety of reasons:
1. Central Govt Funding of languages declared as Classical, something to the tune of "crores of ruppes" every year for the study and research of the language.
2. More varsities that can be established for the development of language hence better infrastructure in terms of buildings, libraries, books, manuscripts, publication process, etc
3. Scholarships to students studying "a classical language"
4. Organizing lectures, debates
5. Etc Etc

In general, more money. But at some point, there was a wide spread notion, that the Central Govt was bulldozed into accepting the classical language tag for Tamil (by the antics of MK Karuna) and not Kannada which most felt deserved the tag simply by the sheer number of Jnanapeeta Awards that Kannada literary "folks" have won. After then, it became a game of upmanship. Kannadav (along with Telugu) also finally got.

The bottom-line is "Classical" according to some people is
1. A dead language, something like "Mutthina Hara (a Kannada movie of the 90s) was a classic film."
2. Something the represents the pinnacle of languages.

If you are KR Ananthswamy, he decries the notion of Classical Tag indicating that "Classic" represents a "dead language" or "something that is out-of-vogue". But others have opposing views.

Either way, I agree to the fact that "Who the hell is the Govt of India to declare any language as classical?". I havent understood that part.

Added later: This post seems to be a repeat of Sharadulas post. Sorry, I didnt see it.

[Skanda]

Interesting how the discussion here is about the language when the topic is about river water

Its bound to come up. Every time the Kaveri issue hots up, there is a ban on Tamil Channels in Karnataka (atleast in Bangalore) and burning of cars with TN registration (and vice-versa in TN). Not sure why.

Language and Water is inter-linked. Whether that is correct or not is something that I cant figure out.

[Dileep]

Language and Water is inter-linked. Whether that is correct or not is something that I cant figure out.

Sure. veLLam, thaNNi and neeru are the problems

+1 on Krita's post. I don't spar with Vina, because my SDRE BTech mind is no match to his TFTA YumBeeYae mind. And history shows that an SDRE nair can never beat a TFTA paTTar in debate.

[Javee]

Here is the recent image from NASA's GRACE sat on India's ground water depletion,



The map shows groundwater changes in India during 2002-08, with losses in red and gains in blue, based on GRACE satellite observations.

Groundwater levels have fallen 20 per cent more than expected in northern India, Nasa satellite images have revealed.

A team of experts has found the underwater supply in the region is being pumped and consumed by the burgeoning population, and could spark a major food and water crisis.

The study, led by Matthew Rodell from Nasa said groundwater across three states, including the New Delhi region, dropped at a rate of 1.6 inches per year between 2002 and 2008.

That depletion is double the capacity of India's largest reservoir and is around 20 per cent higher than previous estimates by Indian authorities. More than 110 million people live across the three states, or nearly twice the population of Britain.

The findings, published in the journal Nature, are based on data from Nasa's Gravity Recorvery and Climate Experiment (GRACE).

A pair of satellites orbiting 300miles above Earth the surface sense changes in Earth's gravity field. Changes in underground water masses affect gravity enough to provide a signal that can be measured by the GRACE spacecraft.

Groundwater levels respond slowly to changes in weather and can take months or years to replenish once pumped for irrigation.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... z0OAQCUbS2

[SwamyG]

We are different from Tamils in every aspect whether it is caste, food habits, gods, you name them.

I don't dislike Tamils but I hate it when they try to own us by forcing on us the Tamil origins of Malayalam and Tamil influence on our culture, in truth it is little to none.

Soree but this is the onlee response I can think of now:

ps: Anger clouds.....

[madhuvani]

I was wondering why India does not have more sea-water desalination projects with reservoirs.
When the monsoons fail, would this not help mitigate drought and prevent water disputes? With all the sea around would it not make sense? Also is there a possibility of solar de-salination?

[Javee]

Is this for real??

‘Tamil Nadu, a model for even Israel’


Ranjitha Gunasekaran
First Published : 15 Aug 2009 04:23:00 AM IST
Last Updated :

CHENNAI: Having survived years of drought, and this time successfully escaped it, its no surprise that Tamil Nadu’s water management systems and schemes are being seen as replicable models.

In fact, next month a team from Israel is expected to visit the State to study its water management model, according to Swaran Singh, Chairman and Managing Director of Tamil Nadu Water Supply and Drainage (TWAD).

The team’s visit was delayed because of elections and has been rescheduled to next month.

The Chairman and Managing Director of Tamil Nadu Water Supply and Drainage said, “We will be holding an international seminar on water management with them. That apart they will be studying our various schemes with the objective replicating them in Israel.” Israel is undergoing, what experts say, the worst drought in a decade.

Five dry winters have left water levels at Lake Tiberias, a key source of drinking water for the nation, at dangerously low levels. Israel isn’t the first. In recent years, governments of Gujarat, Rajasthan, Himachal Pradesh and Orissa have sent teams to study Tamil Nadu’s model. Tamil Nadu’s success comes after several drought years, the last drought as recent as in 2004.

http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/stor ... Blkz7JCFvA

[joshvajohn]

I posted this in the Agri section. See the example below regarding the flow of water into the sea. If the govt builds (local or central) dams to stop such water then there is a good possibility of long term addressig of issue of water.
http://www.dinamalar.com/video_Inner.asp?news_id=409

[joshvajohn]

Mahadayi Water Disputes – Constitution of a Tribunal under Inter-State River Water Disputes Act, 1956 – request from State of Goa
http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=55643



comments
The best way to sort out the river disputes is to nationalise all the rivers running between different states just like the Railways. I was even thinking of nationalising the interstate bus services as well. But if the disputes are not solvable the best way is to nationalise them. While decentralising in sharing the taxes and other systems that is to give power to states and local authorities it is also better to take some of these interstate connections into centre's hands so that the issues can easily be solved as no one would own river as theirs and also it is easy for the centre to keep a balance between the states and so the trust betweem them as well

[Krita]

We are different from Tamils in every aspect whether it is caste, food habits, gods, you name them.

I don't dislike Tamils but I hate it when they try to own us by forcing on us the Tamil origins of Malayalam and Tamil influence on our culture, in truth it is little to none.

Soree but this is the onlee response I can think of now:

ps: Anger clouds.....

** deleted **

[SSridhar]

Three years and Counting - Edit in The Hindu
Excerpts

Three years have passed since the Cauvery Water Disputes Tribunal (CWDT) gave its final award on inter-State sharing of the river waters. The Inter-State Waters Dispute Act, 1956 bars any court, including the Supreme Court, from having or exercising jurisdiction “in respect of any water dispute which may be referred to a Tribunal under this Act.” A 2002 amendment to the Act provides further that “the decision of the Tribunal, after its publication in the Official Gazette by the Central Government...shall have the same force as an order or decree of the Supreme Court.” But this is only on paper. The final award of the CWDT has not entered into force because it has not been gazetted — and it has not been gazetted because the matter has been taken to the Supreme Court over the head of the Tribunal and has become part of the law’s interminable delays.

Cauvery is a river whose waters have been more or less fully utilised. This means that working out a modus vivendi for fair and equitable sharing among the basin States has been a volatile issue and implementing it in deficit monsoon years will be a tough political challenge.

Taking the dispute back to the Supreme Court has defeated the very purpose for which the Tribunal was constituted. It is the guaranteed way of consuming time in years to the detriment of the interests of the farmers and people of the historically celebrated Cauvery basin. Both Tamil Nadu and Karnataka are paying a heavy economic price: in the absence of a settlement, the former’s massive scheme for the modernisation of the Cauvery delta zone is on hold and the latter’s plans for new check dams along the river cannot go ahead. If the dispute is not to drag on for another decade, the Supreme Court must dispose of these petitions efficiently — and allow the Tribunal to be the final adjudicator, as envisaged in the Inter-State Water Disputes Act.

[Avinash R]

^There were discussions between farmers from both states on water sharing. Any news on the progress of the talks? It would be better if farmers settle this among themselves by agreeing to a formula which is applicable during both normal and distress years, since most of the water is needed for irrigation rather than drinking purposes. Getting politicians and courts involved will drag this issue for another century without a solution.

[SSridhar]

Cauvery Dispute: Time for Closure
Excerpts

The Inter-State Water Disputes Act 1956 (ISWD), which was amended in 2002, does provide for a reference by the parties back to the Tribunal after it gives its final order. The parties to the Cauvery dispute were fully entitled to use that provision. In the normal course, the Tribunal could have disposed of the petitions submitted to it and issued supplementary or clarificatory orders (or revised its Final Order) within three to six months, or at the most a year. Unfortunately, it has not been able to deal with the petitions because the parties have simultaneously gone to the Supreme Court with Special Leave Petitions, and the Supreme Court, having admitted the SLPs, has not yet (in three years’ time) taken them up.

How could the parties go to the Supreme Court with SLPs when there is a clear and explicit bar on the jurisdiction of the courts in the case of a river-water dispute that has been referred to a Tribunal under the ISWD Act? Such a bar is provided for in Article 262 of the Constitution and it is part of the ISWD Act. In other words, it is a constitutionally sanctioned bar. The governments, their Law departments, and their learned and eminent counsel know these provisions very well. How then were the SLPs submitted, and how did the Supreme Court admit them?

One must hope that these issues will receive due consideration when the SLPs are taken up. The fact is that in three years’ time the Supreme Court has not found it possible, or has not deemed it fit, to take them up. In the meanwhile, the Tribunal has been unable to deal with the petitions submitted to it. In other words, the Supreme Court has made it very difficult, if not impossible, for the Tribunal to function in accordance with the ISWD Act. There is some irony here because the Tribunal was established in 1990 under a specific direction of the Supreme Court.

[joshvajohn]

Boost for river linking project? - Time will tell
by Niranjan Mudholkar on Jun 1, 2010
http://www.constructionweekonline.in/ar ... will_tell/

I am 100 per cent sure that if river linking is done, the irrigation potential in South India can be increased five times and we will save Rs 1.20 lakh ...

http://expressbuzz.com/opinion/op-ed/%E ... 79954.html

[Airavat]

The new issue of water royalties in North India

It all started with Punjab Chief Minister Prakash Singh Badal saying that the river water flowing through his state into Haryana is Punjab's property and that the Haryana government must pay for the water it uses. The demand from the Akali Dal-BJP government has incensed the Congress government in Haryana. Haryana Chief Minister Bhupinder Singh Hooda in turn has claimed that Punjab is not honouring the water sharing agreements it has with his state. He has in fact asked that Punjab should pay royalties to Haryana for using water earmarked for it.

"We are taking what belongs to us. Instead Punjab should pay us royalties since they have been using our share of water," says Hooda.

Even as the battle over water rages, Himachal Pradesh has also jumped into the fray. The BJP government in Shimla is now taking on its ally Akali Dal with Chief Minister Prem Kumar Dhumal saying all the rivers flowing through Punjab originate in Himachal, and Punjab and Haryana should pay royalties to his state