hey, this is old news. ajai shukla wrote about this on his blog sometime back.rkhanna wrote:Seems like our Artillery upgrade is in further trouble.
BAE refused to upgrade 20 year old Indian Bofors
........................
http://news.in.msn.com/national/article ... id=3112222
Artillery Discussion Thread
Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
the dog and pony circus continues....
Army chief to Antony: Don't block gun trials
Ajai Shukla / New Delhi July 18, 2009, 0:45 IST
A K AntonyA worried army chief, General Deepak Kapoor, has protested to Defence Minister A K Antony about the derailing of vital defence purchases by allegations of corruption. On June 10, General Kapoor complained about the cancellation of army trials on the Pegasus ultra-light howitzer, after the manufacturer, Singapore Technologies Kinetics (STK), was suspended on suspicion of links with a discredited MoD official.
The trials of the 155 mm Pegasus were to commence on 22 June at the Pokhran Ranges in Rajasthan. Any delay, General Kapoor warned Mr Antony, would push back the hot-weather trials by a year.
The next day, the deputy chief, Lt Gen MS Dadwal, fired off a letter to the Defence Secretary, Vijay Singh (Letter No 00048/Proc/DCOAS (P&S)/Sectt) reiterating that the Pegasus trials must continue, even while the Central Bureau of Investigation probes whether STK was connected in any way with Sudipta Ghosh — the former chairman of the Ordnance Factories Board (OFB) — who was arrested for corruption on 19 May. If STK was found guilty, the purchase could always be cancelled.
The army chief, an artilleryman himself, has emphasised on the crucial need for modern artillery; the last important purchase was more than 20 years ago: the 155mm Bofors FH-77B gun in the mid-1980s. Even that was restricted, by allegations of kickbacks, to the direct purchase of 400 guns. The chance to manufacture thousands more in India, through transfer of technology (ToT) was thrown away, even though India paid for the technology. In 2005, amidst a push to buy towed and self-propelled artillery, South African gun manufacturer, Denel, was banned. Soon afterwards, Israeli artillery firm, Soltam Systems, found itself under the scanner.
General Kapoor’s request to Antony has counte0d for little; the CBI and the CVC suggested to the MoD that the ban on STK continues. The MoD wrote back to Army HQ (Letter No 1(5)/2007/D(Proc) dated 7 July) saying that the trials stood cancelled until further orders.
Ironically, the army could benefit from this delay, which creates conditions for bringing another gun into contention: the combat-proven BAE Systems M777 ultra-light howitzer, which is currently doing battle in Afghanistan and Iraq. So far, Pegasus was the only gun in contention — a monopoly situation explicitly discouraged in the MoD’s Defence Procurement Policy of 2008 (DPP–2008). BAE Systems could not bid because the MoD refused to grant it several months for clearing Indian ammunition to be fired from M777 howitzers.
Major General AJS Sandhu, an Indian artillery expert, explains that — since British Army M777 crews would fire Indian ammunition during the trials — British regulations demanded that the ammunition first be “classified”, or cleared by safety experts, before the trials. And since India insisted on firing several types of ammunition during trials, classifying every one of them would take several months.
Asked to confirm, BAE Systems India President, Julian Scopes told Business Standard by email, “In the tender for ultra-light howitzers, there were requirements in the [tender] that made it difficult for us respond in the time available. But we remain hopeful that M777 can be considered and continue to point out to the MoD that the BAE Systems M777 is the lightest 155mm howitzer in the world, in service with the US Army, US Marine Corp and Canadian Army, and the only one that is combat proven.”
Defence experts are unanimous that India’s artillery has deteriorated worryingly from poor procurement. In a hurry to acquire ultra-light howitzers, the MoD opted for a single vendor (STK), which offered a gun that has never seen battle. Now, with STK blacklisted, a yearlong delay seems inevitable; but that period, says General Sandhu, could allow the MoD to bring in BAE Systems, generating wider choice and competitive bidding.
The MoD has tendered for three types of guns: self-propelled guns for the mechanised forces; towed guns for divisions deployed in the plains; and ultra-light howitzers for mountainous areas. Two new mountain divisions, being raised for offensive operations on the China border, will be equipped with these guns. Constructed largely from titanium, their low weight provides tactical mobility, or the ability to quickly move around the battlefield on mountain roads and dirt tracks where heavier guns would get bogged down. Ultra-light guns can even be airlifted into inaccessible firing positions by helicopter.
Army chief to Antony: Don't block gun trials
Ajai Shukla / New Delhi July 18, 2009, 0:45 IST
A K AntonyA worried army chief, General Deepak Kapoor, has protested to Defence Minister A K Antony about the derailing of vital defence purchases by allegations of corruption. On June 10, General Kapoor complained about the cancellation of army trials on the Pegasus ultra-light howitzer, after the manufacturer, Singapore Technologies Kinetics (STK), was suspended on suspicion of links with a discredited MoD official.
The trials of the 155 mm Pegasus were to commence on 22 June at the Pokhran Ranges in Rajasthan. Any delay, General Kapoor warned Mr Antony, would push back the hot-weather trials by a year.
The next day, the deputy chief, Lt Gen MS Dadwal, fired off a letter to the Defence Secretary, Vijay Singh (Letter No 00048/Proc/DCOAS (P&S)/Sectt) reiterating that the Pegasus trials must continue, even while the Central Bureau of Investigation probes whether STK was connected in any way with Sudipta Ghosh — the former chairman of the Ordnance Factories Board (OFB) — who was arrested for corruption on 19 May. If STK was found guilty, the purchase could always be cancelled.
The army chief, an artilleryman himself, has emphasised on the crucial need for modern artillery; the last important purchase was more than 20 years ago: the 155mm Bofors FH-77B gun in the mid-1980s. Even that was restricted, by allegations of kickbacks, to the direct purchase of 400 guns. The chance to manufacture thousands more in India, through transfer of technology (ToT) was thrown away, even though India paid for the technology. In 2005, amidst a push to buy towed and self-propelled artillery, South African gun manufacturer, Denel, was banned. Soon afterwards, Israeli artillery firm, Soltam Systems, found itself under the scanner.
General Kapoor’s request to Antony has counte0d for little; the CBI and the CVC suggested to the MoD that the ban on STK continues. The MoD wrote back to Army HQ (Letter No 1(5)/2007/D(Proc) dated 7 July) saying that the trials stood cancelled until further orders.
Ironically, the army could benefit from this delay, which creates conditions for bringing another gun into contention: the combat-proven BAE Systems M777 ultra-light howitzer, which is currently doing battle in Afghanistan and Iraq. So far, Pegasus was the only gun in contention — a monopoly situation explicitly discouraged in the MoD’s Defence Procurement Policy of 2008 (DPP–2008). BAE Systems could not bid because the MoD refused to grant it several months for clearing Indian ammunition to be fired from M777 howitzers.
Major General AJS Sandhu, an Indian artillery expert, explains that — since British Army M777 crews would fire Indian ammunition during the trials — British regulations demanded that the ammunition first be “classified”, or cleared by safety experts, before the trials. And since India insisted on firing several types of ammunition during trials, classifying every one of them would take several months.
Asked to confirm, BAE Systems India President, Julian Scopes told Business Standard by email, “In the tender for ultra-light howitzers, there were requirements in the [tender] that made it difficult for us respond in the time available. But we remain hopeful that M777 can be considered and continue to point out to the MoD that the BAE Systems M777 is the lightest 155mm howitzer in the world, in service with the US Army, US Marine Corp and Canadian Army, and the only one that is combat proven.”
Defence experts are unanimous that India’s artillery has deteriorated worryingly from poor procurement. In a hurry to acquire ultra-light howitzers, the MoD opted for a single vendor (STK), which offered a gun that has never seen battle. Now, with STK blacklisted, a yearlong delay seems inevitable; but that period, says General Sandhu, could allow the MoD to bring in BAE Systems, generating wider choice and competitive bidding.
The MoD has tendered for three types of guns: self-propelled guns for the mechanised forces; towed guns for divisions deployed in the plains; and ultra-light howitzers for mountainous areas. Two new mountain divisions, being raised for offensive operations on the China border, will be equipped with these guns. Constructed largely from titanium, their low weight provides tactical mobility, or the ability to quickly move around the battlefield on mountain roads and dirt tracks where heavier guns would get bogged down. Ultra-light guns can even be airlifted into inaccessible firing positions by helicopter.
Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
political games x quest for unobtainium x rival lobbies ratting on each other == indian artillery program == zero.zero
meantime Pak has in one swoop obtained 67 M109A5 SP guns and PRC continues to quietly build up its artillery superiority all across the spectrum.
perhaps only a crisis and a self-created beating will unlock this deadlock.
nothing seems to happen in India unless innocents lose lives.
meantime Pak has in one swoop obtained 67 M109A5 SP guns and PRC continues to quietly build up its artillery superiority all across the spectrum.
perhaps only a crisis and a self-created beating will unlock this deadlock.
nothing seems to happen in India unless innocents lose lives.
Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
why cant indian army buy the same M109A5 SP guns if they r best.If USA can offer these guns to pak then sure they will sell the same to us or rather better model than pak.
Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
Singhaji, no need for crisis and a self-created beating. Good old graft to the mantriji will get us the Guns, provided we are able to find out a manufacturer who has not been blacklisted.
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negi
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
M109 variant is not a bad choice ..it might not be chi chi as the PZH-2000 or the Archer but since it is Unkil's toy BABUS and GOI will show some urgency to expedite the ARTY acquisition sham at least this is my perception from the way Trenton and P-8I deals went through .
As for the IA they imho are equally responsible for this mess I fail to understand how come IN's acquisition roadmap looks so streamlined and this is true not only for one or two cases but by and large for the entire range of platforms the latter end up inducting a platform even before IA can finalize what to buy.
As for the IA they imho are equally responsible for this mess I fail to understand how come IN's acquisition roadmap looks so streamlined and this is true not only for one or two cases but by and large for the entire range of platforms the latter end up inducting a platform even before IA can finalize what to buy.
Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
in the arty case the politicos are to be blamed for inane and traitorous meddling. I burst an artery or a two everytime I remember the bhim saga and %$(^&$ renuka chowdhury !
even now it would be a good choice.
even now it would be a good choice.
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negi
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
^ Rahul mian GOI was equally pussy footed when it came to Submarine acquisition (courtesy HDW fiasco and the war room leak case) ; the ARTY acquisition requirement dates back to even before the tender for DE subs was placed, but seems IN did follow it up with the GOI and now we have Scorpenes being built in India . And all the ruckus over Gorshkov's deal notwithstanding I am sure it will join the fleet in next 2/3 years.Trenton,P-8I and C-130J deals were sealed in a jiffy ,Barak-1 and even Barak-NG programmes seem to be doing fine despite allegations of kickbacks against the IAI .
I am sure GOI is as oblivious to IA's ARTY needs just like it has been to IN's or even IAF's requirements but it is the higher up folks in the services that should exert their influence and set the ball rolling .
I am sure GOI is as oblivious to IA's ARTY needs just like it has been to IN's or even IAF's requirements but it is the higher up folks in the services that should exert their influence and set the ball rolling .
Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
no disagreement there. in fact my post should have read
although I'm sure you do appreciate the 'additional' apathy or rather antipathy current GoI junta have to the name bofors, scorpene coming from a different stable than the type 209 doesn't raise the same red flags in their mind.in the arty case the politicos are to be equally blamed ........
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Virupaksha
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
negi mian,negi wrote:^ Rahul mian GOI was equally pussy footed when it came to Submarine acquisition (courtesy HDW fiasco and the war room leak case) ; the ARTY acquisition requirement dates back to even before the tender for DE subs was placed, but seems IN did follow it up with the GOI and now we have Scorpenes being built in India . And all the ruckus over Gorshkov's deal notwithstanding I am sure it will join the fleet in next 2/3 years.Trenton,P-8I and C-130J deals were sealed in a jiffy ,Barak-1 and even Barak-NG programmes seem to be doing fine despite allegations of kickbacks against the IAI .
I am sure GOI is as oblivious to IA's ARTY needs just like it has been to IN's or even IAF's requirements but it is the higher up folks in the services that should exert their influence and set the ball rolling .
the difference is the rest did not make a govt to fall nor did it make the "family" directly responsible in public eyes.
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negi
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
^ You really think that Bofors scam or any other scam for that matter has bearing on elections or even formation of the government ? 
Btw when was it last that one came across a TOI/HINDU headline with regards to Bofors scam ? ; the last I heard CBI had suggested that all the charges against Quattrochi be dropped as the former realized
it could not prove them...for whatever reasons.
Infact if what you claim is indeed true then why is that Bofors is one of the parties involved in the ARY tender , like the HDW case GOI could have easily barred it from participating in the tender itself. From the other perspective if IA has enough influence and leverage to convince the GOI to have Bofors included in the bidding process ..going by former's experience of operating the gun I don't see why the former cannot exert enough pressure on GOi to expedite the friggin process.
And for time being even if we agree that GOI will not buy Bofors, why can't IA select a different candidate heck there are several others with equally capable platforms and they would be more than happy to accommodate IA's requirements given the size of the deal.
Btw when was it last that one came across a TOI/HINDU headline with regards to Bofors scam ? ; the last I heard CBI had suggested that all the charges against Quattrochi be dropped as the former realized
it could not prove them...for whatever reasons.Infact if what you claim is indeed true then why is that Bofors is one of the parties involved in the ARY tender , like the HDW case GOI could have easily barred it from participating in the tender itself. From the other perspective if IA has enough influence and leverage to convince the GOI to have Bofors included in the bidding process ..going by former's experience of operating the gun I don't see why the former cannot exert enough pressure on GOi to expedite the friggin process.
And for time being even if we agree that GOI will not buy Bofors, why can't IA select a different candidate heck there are several others with equally capable platforms and they would be more than happy to accommodate IA's requirements given the size of the deal.
Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
robust gear that easily available like M109 is anyday better than limited number
of chi chi stuff like Pzh2000 that has never seen rough use outside german autobahns and forests.
atleast the M109 has been a family going back decades and seen incremental
improvements based on field use.
else the chinese artillery are going to overwhelm us in short order and make
taking back of any territory very difficult. they are coming up with various models
on the PLZ45 template.
Bofors on Tatra for truck
either Denel or Bofors for towed
Bhim for tracked
all three should have been concluded 5 yrs ago and we should have been in
volume production today after initial ramp up.
of chi chi stuff like Pzh2000 that has never seen rough use outside german autobahns and forests.
atleast the M109 has been a family going back decades and seen incremental
improvements based on field use.
else the chinese artillery are going to overwhelm us in short order and make
taking back of any territory very difficult. they are coming up with various models
on the PLZ45 template.
Bofors on Tatra for truck
either Denel or Bofors for towed
Bhim for tracked
all three should have been concluded 5 yrs ago and we should have been in
volume production today after initial ramp up.
Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
Without these SP and wheeled guns, I do not know how we are gonna arrive at the IBG for the Cold Strart and all the talk of annhilating the figting prowess of the PA's ARn/ARS... 
Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
orders for pinaka also need to be stepped up and much more of upgraded Grad artillery brought in. the Ru probably has a boneyard of ex- gear in siberia...we
can refurbish these grads, improve their electronics a bit and push in the upgraded rockets.
every infantry division ought to have a strong rocket artillery component and more so in mountains where the holdings need to be upped by 3X
can refurbish these grads, improve their electronics a bit and push in the upgraded rockets.
every infantry division ought to have a strong rocket artillery component and more so in mountains where the holdings need to be upped by 3X
Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
Again folks who is bankrolling munna? The M109s will have same drawbacks as SH18 in the MRCA thread. Parades and drills.
Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
unfortunately no
The M109s exist all around the US "allies" world so spares and ammo can come from lot of 'friends'.
The M109s exist all around the US "allies" world so spares and ammo can come from lot of 'friends'.
Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
Even Croatia makes its own field guns, small arms and Tanks.
To say that India with the current infrastructure can not make the Guns required by IA is plain dumb.
Somebody has to whip the back side of OFPs to make them sit up and do some thing other than flicking fleas and collect salaries.
Even Pvt secotor can make these guns required with installed infrastructure.
Arms purchase are big time Money spinners for Politicos, Civvies, business and uniformed guys.
Right now the Singapore gun is in contention and our Man Q operates from singapore.
Mind you middle men not only make money but also make money when the deals are scuttled for sabotaging the whole system.
Sorry IA is model parade army these days, with no visionary planning, save for a cold start now then that is put in cold storage.
Bofors saga was from 1980s, we are in 2009 , is it not a shame that acountry that can send a probe to moon is stuck in importing basic needs of Army and busy in terrestial probes of such purchases?
PGM: precision guided money into swiss accounts.
To say that India with the current infrastructure can not make the Guns required by IA is plain dumb.
Somebody has to whip the back side of OFPs to make them sit up and do some thing other than flicking fleas and collect salaries.
Even Pvt secotor can make these guns required with installed infrastructure.
Arms purchase are big time Money spinners for Politicos, Civvies, business and uniformed guys.
Right now the Singapore gun is in contention and our Man Q operates from singapore.
Mind you middle men not only make money but also make money when the deals are scuttled for sabotaging the whole system.
Sorry IA is model parade army these days, with no visionary planning, save for a cold start now then that is put in cold storage.
Bofors saga was from 1980s, we are in 2009 , is it not a shame that acountry that can send a probe to moon is stuck in importing basic needs of Army and busy in terrestial probes of such purchases?
PGM: precision guided money into swiss accounts.
Last edited by John Snow on 10 Aug 2009 22:08, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
"Artillery is god of War!" cant let such a critical weapon be subject to vagaries and whimises of far away powers even if they give them for free.
Folks should read the book "SeaHawk" by Manohar Malgoankar on Kanoji Angre and the troubles he faced in getting the required ammo/powder for his guns from the Portuguese as there was no local sources.
"friends" will turn silent when the need comes under pressure from massa to keep munna afloat.
Folks should read the book "SeaHawk" by Manohar Malgoankar on Kanoji Angre and the troubles he faced in getting the required ammo/powder for his guns from the Portuguese as there was no local sources.
"friends" will turn silent when the need comes under pressure from massa to keep munna afloat.
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negi
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
^ Jingo appreciates every word of your wisdom sire...however this never ending wait and drama has demoralized most of us on this board. Now situation is such that I pray that some RU,Unkil or even Israeli lobby arm twists GOI into buying any 155m 52 cal gun , even the MSTA being flaunted by our RU block (Shankarosky,Marcos and Igorr sir) fame will do I say . 
Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
Are we still talking of the pakis?? maybe I misunderstood - but I am talking of M 109s being parade pieces for the Pukis..
Actually "Friends" let slip them into the black market and let it find its way.
Bottom line if the spare part supply cannot be dried up to the Iranians - you got didly squat chances of stopping it for the Pakis.
Maybe some hi tech items but arty etc - no chance - short of a complete blockade
Negi
please no MSTA - pathetically outgunned.
Actually "Friends" let slip them into the black market and let it find its way.
Bottom line if the spare part supply cannot be dried up to the Iranians - you got didly squat chances of stopping it for the Pakis.
Maybe some hi tech items but arty etc - no chance - short of a complete blockade
Negi
please no MSTA - pathetically outgunned.
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nikhil_p
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
From the Times 2011...
"Three top CAG officials caught accepting bribes to make baseless allegations of corruption in arms deals. Government mulls setting up a CAG level 2 to Audit CAG..."
"Three top CAG officials caught accepting bribes to make baseless allegations of corruption in arms deals. Government mulls setting up a CAG level 2 to Audit CAG..."
Rs 20k cr deals may end Army's artillery drought
Here we go again
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 926262.cms
India is now going to float a mega global tender for acquiring 814 motorised howitzers in a fresh attempt to kickstart the Army's
long-delayed over Rs 20,000 crore artillery modernisation programme, bedevilled by the Bofors ghost and other scandals for almost 25 years now.
The project will include an off-the-shelf purchase of 200 155mm/52-calibre mounted gun systems from abroad, which will be followed by indigenous manufacture of another 614 such howitzers under transfer of technology.
"These 17-tonne motorised howitzers will arm 40 regiments. The project was recently cleared by Defence Acquisitions Council, chaired by defence minister A K Antony. The RFP is being issued," said a defence ministry source.
Yet another big project on the anvil is the outright purchase of 100 155mm/52-calibre self-propelled tracked guns for five artillery regiments, the field trials for which will be held around May-June 2010.
The 1.13-million Army is keeping its fingers firmly crossed this time about its artillery modernisation programme, which envisages induction of a whopping 2,814 guns of different types.
Not a single new artillery gun, after all, has been inducted ever since the infamous Rs 1,437 crore Bofors contract for 410 field howitzers became a political bogey in 1986.
If first it was Bofors, then it was Denel in 2005. And now, Singapore Technologies (ST) is in the dock after the defence ministry put all dealings with it on hold due to the alleged corruption scandal involving former Ordnance Factory Board chairman Sudipto Ghosh.
A worried Army top brass, in fact, has even asked Antony to allow the trials in different categories to go ahead while the CBI conducts its probe into Ghosh's case. The Pegasus gun of ST Kinetics, for instance, was to be field-tested from mid-June onwards in the project to acquire 140 air-mobile ultra-light howitzers (ULHs) for Rs 2,900 crore. Army needs ULHs to ensure artillery can be swiftly deployed in forward, inaccessible areas with the help of helicopters.
ST Kinetics was also a contender in the meandering Rs 8,000 crore project to buy 400 155mm/52-calibre towed artillery guns, which is to be followed by indigenous manufacture of another 1,180 howitzers. The other two contenders are BAE Systems and Israeli Soltam.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 926262.cms
India is now going to float a mega global tender for acquiring 814 motorised howitzers in a fresh attempt to kickstart the Army's
long-delayed over Rs 20,000 crore artillery modernisation programme, bedevilled by the Bofors ghost and other scandals for almost 25 years now.
The project will include an off-the-shelf purchase of 200 155mm/52-calibre mounted gun systems from abroad, which will be followed by indigenous manufacture of another 614 such howitzers under transfer of technology.
"These 17-tonne motorised howitzers will arm 40 regiments. The project was recently cleared by Defence Acquisitions Council, chaired by defence minister A K Antony. The RFP is being issued," said a defence ministry source.
Yet another big project on the anvil is the outright purchase of 100 155mm/52-calibre self-propelled tracked guns for five artillery regiments, the field trials for which will be held around May-June 2010.
The 1.13-million Army is keeping its fingers firmly crossed this time about its artillery modernisation programme, which envisages induction of a whopping 2,814 guns of different types.
Not a single new artillery gun, after all, has been inducted ever since the infamous Rs 1,437 crore Bofors contract for 410 field howitzers became a political bogey in 1986.
If first it was Bofors, then it was Denel in 2005. And now, Singapore Technologies (ST) is in the dock after the defence ministry put all dealings with it on hold due to the alleged corruption scandal involving former Ordnance Factory Board chairman Sudipto Ghosh.
A worried Army top brass, in fact, has even asked Antony to allow the trials in different categories to go ahead while the CBI conducts its probe into Ghosh's case. The Pegasus gun of ST Kinetics, for instance, was to be field-tested from mid-June onwards in the project to acquire 140 air-mobile ultra-light howitzers (ULHs) for Rs 2,900 crore. Army needs ULHs to ensure artillery can be swiftly deployed in forward, inaccessible areas with the help of helicopters.
ST Kinetics was also a contender in the meandering Rs 8,000 crore project to buy 400 155mm/52-calibre towed artillery guns, which is to be followed by indigenous manufacture of another 1,180 howitzers. The other two contenders are BAE Systems and Israeli Soltam.
Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
India artillery upgrade stuck, Pak gets howitzers from US
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/india ... us/506855/
Manu Pubby Posted online: Tuesday , Aug 25, 2009 at 1122 hrs
New Delhi : India’s artillery modernisation has been stuck due to scam scares ever since the Bofors scandal but Pakistan has gone ahead, equipping its army with the latest guns that now threaten to give it an edge over the Indian Army.
While India has not received even a single new artillery gun in the last two decades, Pakistan recently received a batch of 67 self-propelled artillery guns from the US using War against Terror funds granted by Washington.
Latest United Nations data reveal that delivery of the M-109 A5 self-propelled artillery guns took place last year. The guns were transferred under the US Foreign Military Financing (FMF) programme that was granted to Pakistan for the fight against militant groups on its border with Afghanistan.
Experts say these M-109 A5 155 mm howitzers give Pakistan a definite conventional edge over the Indian Army that is years away from induction of similar systems. The most modern guns in the Indian Army are the Bofors that were procured in the 1980s.
“While the Indian Army modernisation is getting nowhere, Pakistan is steadily modernising not only its artillery but other arms and services as well. This will lead to erosion in India’s conventional superiority if not checked immediately,” said Brigadier Gurmeet Kanwal, a former artillery officer, who heads the Army’s think tank, Centre for Land Warfare Studies (CLAWS).
In the Nineties, the Indian Army had put forward a requirement for guns similar to the ones that Pakistan has now got. While the plan took off in 1999, it got scrapped after eight years of trials after South African firm Denel was blacklisted by the government.
Israel’s Soltham and Singapore Technologies, the other artillery giants, have also been blacklisted by the government.
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/india ... us/506855/
Manu Pubby Posted online: Tuesday , Aug 25, 2009 at 1122 hrs
New Delhi : India’s artillery modernisation has been stuck due to scam scares ever since the Bofors scandal but Pakistan has gone ahead, equipping its army with the latest guns that now threaten to give it an edge over the Indian Army.
While India has not received even a single new artillery gun in the last two decades, Pakistan recently received a batch of 67 self-propelled artillery guns from the US using War against Terror funds granted by Washington.
Latest United Nations data reveal that delivery of the M-109 A5 self-propelled artillery guns took place last year. The guns were transferred under the US Foreign Military Financing (FMF) programme that was granted to Pakistan for the fight against militant groups on its border with Afghanistan.
Experts say these M-109 A5 155 mm howitzers give Pakistan a definite conventional edge over the Indian Army that is years away from induction of similar systems. The most modern guns in the Indian Army are the Bofors that were procured in the 1980s.
“While the Indian Army modernisation is getting nowhere, Pakistan is steadily modernising not only its artillery but other arms and services as well. This will lead to erosion in India’s conventional superiority if not checked immediately,” said Brigadier Gurmeet Kanwal, a former artillery officer, who heads the Army’s think tank, Centre for Land Warfare Studies (CLAWS).
In the Nineties, the Indian Army had put forward a requirement for guns similar to the ones that Pakistan has now got. While the plan took off in 1999, it got scrapped after eight years of trials after South African firm Denel was blacklisted by the government.
Israel’s Soltham and Singapore Technologies, the other artillery giants, have also been blacklisted by the government.
Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
Anyone caught the article in the latest INDIA Today on the artillery requirements. It lists the following:
Towed Guns- Need 400 Guns plus 1,580 to be built indigenously- Cost 3,200 crore(probably
for the 400)- BAe Systems,Soltam,
Tracked Guns- Need 100 Guns-Cost 3,400 crore-BAe Systems,Denel,Soltam,Samsung
Mounted Guns-Need 814 Guns-Cost 8,500 crore-BAe Systems,Soltam
Ultralight Guns-Need 145 Guns-Cost 2,800 crore-BAe Systems
Wheeled Guns-Need 180 Guns-Cost 4,700 crore-BAe Systems,Nexter,Rheinmetall
The earliest they can be expected is five years
Towed Guns- Need 400 Guns plus 1,580 to be built indigenously- Cost 3,200 crore(probably
for the 400)- BAe Systems,Soltam,
Tracked Guns- Need 100 Guns-Cost 3,400 crore-BAe Systems,Denel,Soltam,Samsung
Mounted Guns-Need 814 Guns-Cost 8,500 crore-BAe Systems,Soltam
Ultralight Guns-Need 145 Guns-Cost 2,800 crore-BAe Systems
Wheeled Guns-Need 180 Guns-Cost 4,700 crore-BAe Systems,Nexter,Rheinmetall
The earliest they can be expected is five years
Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
Even in the wildest dreams, 5 years is a bit too early going by the Tamasha our netas are performing over this issue.
The earliest they can be expected is five years
Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
the process involved in running five separate trials process in summer, winter and monsoon , price negotiations, TOT talks, transfer of expertise for local assembly, change of ownership, sanctions analysis will itself ensure its > 10 yrs before we see a single gun if at all.
imho they should settle on two guns - truck mounted 52 cal 155mm for all formations and truck mounted 105mm 39cal for mountain divs with a limited number of same gun for heli portable drop to locations with no roadhead for direct fire.
issue tons of Nags, zsu-23-2 and Milans to supplement the direct fire role.
this 5 horse chariot is going go nowhere at all.
why the phuck cant OFB+domestic+DRDO industry atleast
make a decent truck mounted 105mm and IA accept it even
if its 80% of the best in market ? we need 1000s of these guns
not a few 100. a good quality latest 105mm shell can do
plenty of damage and has a decent range.
imho they should settle on two guns - truck mounted 52 cal 155mm for all formations and truck mounted 105mm 39cal for mountain divs with a limited number of same gun for heli portable drop to locations with no roadhead for direct fire.
issue tons of Nags, zsu-23-2 and Milans to supplement the direct fire role.
this 5 horse chariot is going go nowhere at all.
why the phuck cant OFB+domestic+DRDO industry atleast
make a decent truck mounted 105mm and IA accept it even
if its 80% of the best in market ? we need 1000s of these guns
not a few 100. a good quality latest 105mm shell can do
plenty of damage and has a decent range.
Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
my prediction: PLA is going to be coming in with a lot of these
lightly armoured but fast and manouverable IFV/mortar/ATGM vehicles and beating the crap out of us with outflanking moves while we continue to fire 1000s of rounds from plutuniom plated uber-cannons in 65C heat and reject goods because they died at 61C. we have already seen pics of them prowling around in
ATVs ... commercial ones are mostly ok though we will have a 10 yr tender to select the mil-grade costliest one. the panda
probably sources ATVs from domestic industry by the 1000s.
http://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/inde ... ng=3&pdb=1
lightly armoured but fast and manouverable IFV/mortar/ATGM vehicles and beating the crap out of us with outflanking moves while we continue to fire 1000s of rounds from plutuniom plated uber-cannons in 65C heat and reject goods because they died at 61C. we have already seen pics of them prowling around in
ATVs ... commercial ones are mostly ok though we will have a 10 yr tender to select the mil-grade costliest one. the panda
probably sources ATVs from domestic industry by the 1000s.
http://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/inde ... ng=3&pdb=1
Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
Singha,you have made a moot point.I was also reading an intersting feature on the Chinese modernisation of its army and the sheer range of weaponry developed which you've mentioned,especially those for the infantry/assisting the infantry.They've also developed an MBRL of range greater than Smerch of upto 100km,which in due course will eventually find its way to Pak.While the battle wages on between the Indian armed forces vs the babus and politicos,the Chinese and Pakis relentlessly march on upgrading,modernising and expanding thier armd forces.
Nehru thought that India's moral power was enough to keeep our enemies at bay and suffered a catastrophic defeat in '62 from which he never recovered.Likewise our good doctor,purveyor of snake oil,feels that being a vassal state of America is enough to protect us from our enemies.He should take a long and hard look at American and NATO fortunes in Afghanistan,where their generals are telling them that victory is impossible,before the Chinese and the Pakis uninvitedly come-a-visiting!
Nehru thought that India's moral power was enough to keeep our enemies at bay and suffered a catastrophic defeat in '62 from which he never recovered.Likewise our good doctor,purveyor of snake oil,feels that being a vassal state of America is enough to protect us from our enemies.He should take a long and hard look at American and NATO fortunes in Afghanistan,where their generals are telling them that victory is impossible,before the Chinese and the Pakis uninvitedly come-a-visiting!
Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
With the situation this grim, why does the Army Chief keep repeating that we are prepared for any eventuality? If people here can figure it out, why can't the Chief?
Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
If the Army chief says something like that, there will be panic in the population. No matter what the position, the people at the top will always assure the general population that everything is in control. It can’t be otherwise.
Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
Come on now, that excuse has been the shield for Chiefs enjoying their office and not "perturbing the waters". In a democratic setup, the people have a right to know and panic if they choose. This slef-induced complacency is dangerous. Major acquisitions have been pending for far too long - Artillery, MRCA etc. Some people (Babus) need to be toasted!!pankajs wrote:If the Army chief says something like that, there will be panic in the population. No matter what the position, the people at the top will always assure the general population that everything is in control. It can’t be otherwise.
Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
Philip, there are whispers in certain circles that a limited number of WS-1 MLRS and their associated fire finder radars have been transferred to Pak army north to counter the Smerch some years ago. these can even be used to target airbases, railway hubs and cantonments within 70-100km border using shoot and scoot technique as they are all truck mounted.
http://www.sinodefence.com/army/mrl/weishi.asp
if you look at it, certainly not as a chi-chi as the gold std khanate MLRS/Atacms or even our pinaka with israeli TCS guidance modules.
they key diff is we have shuffled around and ordered 2 regiments of Pinaka till date (delivery status is unclear at best) and they can field no doubt a few dozen of these opposing systems.
against a ruthless and determined enemy like PRC, without the safety of fighting from across the ocean (like khan), we need both quantity and quality, just quality is not enough for anything but a desperate defence of the ramparts.
http://www.sinodefence.com/army/mrl/weishi.asp
if you look at it, certainly not as a chi-chi as the gold std khanate MLRS/Atacms or even our pinaka with israeli TCS guidance modules.
they key diff is we have shuffled around and ordered 2 regiments of Pinaka till date (delivery status is unclear at best) and they can field no doubt a few dozen of these opposing systems.
against a ruthless and determined enemy like PRC, without the safety of fighting from across the ocean (like khan), we need both quantity and quality, just quality is not enough for anything but a desperate defence of the ramparts.
Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
Why just Babus, the Army Generals need to be toasted as well. I haven't seen any general resign or make public protest on the state of preparedness. Our Army chiefs seem to be more interested in post retirement Governor posts.Vivek K wrote:Come on now, that excuse has been the shield for Chiefs enjoying their office and not "perturbing the waters". In a democratic setup, the people have a right to know and panic if they choose. This slef-induced complacency is dangerous. Major acquisitions have been pending for far too long - Artillery, MRCA etc. Some people (Babus) need to be toasted!!pankajs wrote:If the Army chief says something like that, there will be panic in the population. No matter what the position, the people at the top will always assure the general population that everything is in control. It can’t be otherwise.
Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
Maybe we can get the Polish general to give a little lecture on ethics to our top brass 
But then again - he will be wasting his time
For those who are not aware - the full brunt of the bureaucracy is now being brought to bear on General Waldemar Skrzypczak.
One wishes him all the strength as the machinery clicks into gear to destroy him
http://www.polskieradio.pl/thenews/nati ... vated.html
But then again - he will be wasting his time
For those who are not aware - the full brunt of the bureaucracy is now being brought to bear on General Waldemar Skrzypczak.
One wishes him all the strength as the machinery clicks into gear to destroy him
http://www.polskieradio.pl/thenews/nati ... vated.html
Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
Here is a post from Sharma about such a system.Singha wrote:
why the phuck cant OFB+domestic+DRDO industry atleast
make a decent truck mounted 105mm and IA accept it even
if its 80% of the best in market ? we need 1000s of these guns
not a few 100. a good quality latest 105mm shell can do
plenty of damage and has a decent range.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 76#p689076
Probably would have been ordered if it was painted just right and had a gora handing out brochures. DRDO/OFB should take a leaf out of Bollywood and hire "Item goras" for trials, presentations and shows.
Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
Sorry ! thought of putting in humour thread but could not resist
Judge : Your death sentence is confirmed , no hope , you will be hanged . Any last wishes
Convict : Your honor , I want to be hanged on the day India acquires or builds a new artillery system.
Judge : so be it
Convict lives his entire life in jail at the expense of tax payer's money and dies a natural death at a ripe old age after his great grandsons had visited him on their way to college.
Judge : Your death sentence is confirmed , no hope , you will be hanged . Any last wishes
Convict : Your honor , I want to be hanged on the day India acquires or builds a new artillery system.
Judge : so be it
Convict lives his entire life in jail at the expense of tax payer's money and dies a natural death at a ripe old age after his great grandsons had visited him on their way to college.
Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
If it is an desi product IA will ask for 400% performance when compared to similar imported system. On top of that, they will perhaps want the desi guys to design 400% future proof weapon for it to be acceptable.Singha wrote:why the phuck cant OFB+domestic+DRDO industry atleast
make a decent truck mounted 105mm and IA accept it even
if its 80% of the best in market ? we need 1000s of these guns
not a few 100. a good quality latest 105mm shell can do
plenty of damage and has a decent range.
Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
We are not learning from history. Babur invaded India , defeated Ibrahim and the main architect of his victory was the artillery. He defeated the Rajputs who probably ignored the artillery system in their conflict with Babur.
Well what can you learn from a distorted history anyway.
Well what can you learn from a distorted history anyway.
Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
Our Generals/Politicos/Babus have learned all the right lessons from history. Delay and delay more till there is a crisis. When equipments are bought in a pinch, they can safely overpay, get sub standard products, no questions asked. All in the name of national security.rkirankr wrote:We are not learning from history.
The jingos need not worry about delays, etc. The above folks know exactly what they are doing. They are all waiting for the right moment to go out spread the cheer (money).
Re: Artillery Discussion Thread
We have to follow the route taken by Indian exports to Pakiland. First export to some gulf country, then let a company from there export to Pakiland.pankajs wrote:If it is an desi product IA will ask for 400% performance when compared to similar imported system. On top of that, they will perhaps want the desi guys to design 400% future proof weapon for it to be acceptable.Singha wrote:why the phuck cant OFB+domestic+DRDO industry atleast
make a decent truck mounted 105mm and IA accept it even
if its 80% of the best in market ? we need 1000s of these guns
not a few 100. a good quality latest 105mm shell can do
plenty of damage and has a decent range.
So perhaps it can be manufactured in India, imported by some company in Switzerland (with free holidays and easy opening of anonymous bank deposits thrown in) and then sold to us from there.
Both BJP and Congress govts have not learned any such thing from even the Kargill war, why do you expect them to go back and learn things from 600 years ago.rkirankr wrote:We are not learning from history. Babur invaded India , defeated Ibrahim and the main architect of his victory was the artillery. He defeated the Rajputs who probably ignored the artillery system in their conflict with Babur.
Well what can you learn from a distorted history anyway.