PKI said "to be one up on them".shiv wrote:Regarding the story of India getting wind of Pakistani tests and testing in a hurry - I find it difficult to reconcile one point Why did India need to test in a hurry before they did? We would have had all the time in the world to watch them get sanctioned while diligently preparing for tests.
The "hurry" may have been Vajpayee and his earlier collapsed government perhaps?
Nope. Times Now ka Bap has contacts: GoI - or some within GoI. I suspect some within GoI have contacts within Times Now.Times Now has contacts in the US deep inside the nuclear establlishment?
I think so too, but the fact that things were done in a hurry and may have had an effect on planning, logistics is probable.shiv wrote:Regarding the story of India getting wind of Pakistani tests and testing in a hurry - I find it difficult to reconcile one point Why did India need to test in a hurry before they did? We would have had all the time in the world to watch them get sanctioned while diligently preparing for tests.
The "hurry" may have been Vajpayee and his earlier collapsed government perhaps?
I had earlier said that BARC is full of groupism, like mafia, they indoctrinate and protect. Just some Good fellas.Your angst is right, but i ask you not to read too much into this. Its actually an inter-departmental fight and they are using Kalam now in their fight. Homi Sethna and PKI belongs to the same discipline (Chemistry) and Raja Ramanna, RC belongs to another discipline (Physics). If you trace back the genesis for this internal fight starts earlier to POK-I. During POK-I HS backed PKI and RR and RC shared same views.
Why Kalam ? Becoz Kalam supported RC. So it is. Now, if Kalam cant talk abt Nuclear matters, ofcourse he is not a nuclear scientist, then BK/BC et al cannot even utter the word "nuclear" in their talk. You know Kalam started the Prithivi program and you know what is the payload of it. From that time to establishing the N command, he has played a role in all these thing.
From: fasRaja Ram wrote:How did they get access to this report? Times Now has contacts in the US deep inside the nuclear establlishment?
Homi Sethna, a former top atomic boss, on Tuesday waded into the 1998 Pokhran row when he backed ex-DRDO scientist K Santhanam's assessment
that the nuclear test was not a full success and slammed former President A P J Abdul Kalam for rubbishing the claim.
"I fully support Santhanam and I stand by his statement that India needs more nuke tests to be conducted," Sethna, the guiding force behind India's first nuclear test in 1974, said.
Sethna now in his eighties suggested that Kalam, who was heading the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) when Santhanam was coordinating Pokhran-II, suggested that the missile man was no qualified authority to rubbish his former colleague's claim.
Simultaneously, another former chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) P K Iyengar alleged that the 1998 tests were done in haste at the bidding of the government of the day. A BJP-led NDA government headed by Atal Behari Vajpayee had just assumed office when India conducted the tests.
The comments by Sethna, who was the AEC chairman in 1974 came notwithstanding Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Kalam setting at rest the controversy over the 1998 nuclear tests.
Kalam said the only thermonuclear device (hydrogen bomb) tested produced the "desired yield".
But Sethna said "former president APJ Abdul Kalam was not a scientist and Santhanam is a physicist and he knew what he was talking.
"What does Kalam understand about physics? He can say anything as he was the President and a politician."
"What Santhanam said was absolutely correct," he added.
"What did he (Kalam) know about extracting, making explosive grade? He didn't know a thing. By being a president he appeared to wear the stature. He relied on atomic energy to gain additional stature," said Sethna about Kalam while talking to a TV channel.
"I don't like politicians to interfere specially lay politicians to interfere any more. I firmly believe that they should stay out. When we did the test... the first test there was no politician. It was a raw one. We were lucky that the whole thing collapsed," said Sethna, who in his days in the atomic establishment had the reputation of being a blunt, plainspeaking organisational leader.
Kalam had on August 27 said Pokhran II was a success rubbishing Santhanam's claim that the tests were a "fizzle".
Iyengar, who was among the three top atomic scientists who oversaw the 1974 tests, has already shared Santhanam's assessment and questioned official claims of success.
Iyengar suggested that in March 1998, two months before Pokhran-II, India's intelligence must have found out that the Pakistanis were about to test and that they were serious.
"Therefore, they (the new government in India) asked these people(scientists) to hurry up, do as fast as possible in all this extra pressure to be one up politically because BJP had just come to power," he said.
"If Pakistan fired an explosion before India what a common man in India would have thought," Iyengar added.
The Principal Scientific advisor of Government of India Dr R Chidambaram, who led the team of scientists for Pokhran-II, denied Santhanam's statement and said he had to explain scientifically why the tests were not fully successful.
"I don't like politicians to interfere specially lay politicians to interfere any more. I firmly believe that they should stay out."pankajs wrote:Baap re, this guy does not mince words. He branded Kalam a politician. His statements are very emphatic.
Read the bolded part.ramana wrote:In late May 1998, there was reporter in TOI, Dinesh Kumar who alluded to a theory that GOI got wind of the follow-on to TSP's Ghauri test of April 6th was a nuke test by May. And PRC being the UNSC chairman of the period would introduce a resolution condemning the TSP test and express regrets and ban all other follow-on tests. And US would go along as a Non Proliferation dogma. It was to avoid this strategic lock-out that the tests were conducted. And full credit to RAW for that. Nothing political about all this.kenop wrote:PKI was on CNN-IBN .... perhaps they got intelligence reports of Pakistani plans to test towards the end of May. Hence, they gave a go ahead (it had to be done before Pakistan carried out its tests).....,
No follow-up after this.
......
The only mistake RC did was he cloaked with out telling anybody and hence the yield was muffled.Active cloaking differs from cloaking technologies that rely on special materials to bend light or other electromagnetic waves around an object. Scientists have focused on next-generation metamaterials that can only shield very small objects from visible light
.....
By contrast, active cloaking could generate electromagnetic waves that adapt to match the frequency and amplitude of incoming waves. That creates the phenomenon known as destructive interference, where waves cancel each other out, much like how noise cancellation headsets work on sound waves.
{The id10T Teen Party was making fun of when I said bose noise cancellation migh have been used, Is this teen party PeeHD from Bhagalpur University of Bihar? joker of the worst kind talks about having made quality bums for sure with his hands...}
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SciTech, Jeremy Hsu, active cloaking, cloak, cloaking devices, earthquakes, invisibility cloak, natural disasters Tsunami, radar, sonar"The problem with metamaterials is that their behavior depends strongly on the frequency you are trying to cloak from," said Graeme Milton, a mathematician at the University of Utah. "So it is difficult to obtain broadband cloaking. Maybe you'd be invisible to red light, but people would see you in blue light."
By contrast, active cloaking could generate electromagnetic waves that adapt to match the frequency and amplitude of incoming waves. That creates the phenomenon known as destructive interference, where waves cancel each other out, much like how noise cancellation headsets work on sound waves.
Folks: Stay clear of either worshipping Kalam or making him as the know nothing guy. The fact is, he was the final arbiter for the government and still is. The fact is he sided with RC. The fact is he is a politician and has done yeoman service to the nation, even if technically not a scientist or a Doctor. I will take all his failures in missiles any day for what he has done with the IGMDP, given the Indian context. I wish there were more politicians like him.pankajs wrote:Baap re, this guy does not mince words. He branded Kalam a politician. His statements are very emphatic.
From the above TOI-let reportamit wrote:Also is K Santhanam a qualified nuclear scientist?
GENEVA: Arms negotiators failed to clear the way on Monday for the start of talks this year on nuclear disarmament as Pakistan said its security interests had not been respected.
A few weeks ago Pakistan had expressed security concerns. There were a few reports. TOI-Late?GENEVA: Arms negotiators failed to clear the way on Monday for the start of talks this year on nuclear disarmament as Pakistan said its security interests had not been respected.
So the DST denounced Pillai as "dishonest" and washed its hands of him. Reports, however, say that the DST was still willing to give him another chance, but Pillai’s public outburst against the scientists left it with no choice. Pillai, however, is unrepentant. He claims a foreign element sabotaged his experiment. Indeed, as if to prove his point, he repeated the experiment on October 3 in Hyderabad sponsored by Sanghi Industries. This time with a glass rod. Reportedly he was wildly applauded amidst slogans against the scientific community.
I too said, yes, ofcourse Kalam is NOT a nuclear scientist. You are also saying the samethig. And how that is a mix up?Neela wrote:You are mixing it all up. Kalam is NOT a nuclear scientist...
When every jack, dick and harry are compenting on the yield why he cannot ? I didnt said he did. Infact Kalam never talked abt the yield. What he said is he only mentioned that after POK-II there was a detailed project review and the review agreed with the results. What is wrong in saying this ? And, why cant he say this ?he cannot comment on the yield. Period.
That IS the standard in the scientific world.
He may understand it. He may have his opinions. But he cannot exploit his public image, which I think he clearly DID.
RELY and RE-LIE, both has same pronounication.BC/BK RELY on someone to provide inputs and base their opinions on that. Would BC/BK rely on Kalam or someone with a background in Nuclear science?
Pls, they can only either rely or re-lie depending on whom they contact.This is new one. Here is the one from Reuters.kenop wrote:A few weeks ago Pakistan had expressed security concerns. There were a few reports. TOI-Late?
Pakistan, which tested a nuclear weapon in 1998, says the implementing proposals could threaten its national security.
Its main concern is that the proposals would have the negotiations focus on the fissile material treaty, and not seek results in the other three areas, which it says are equally important.
With recent investment in new reactors, it is understandable for Pakistan to feel the pinch.But Pakistan feared such an approach would not take account of existing stocks, putting recent nuclear powers such as Pakistan at a disadvantage to the more established ones.
kenop wrote:PKI said "to be one up on them".shiv wrote:Regarding the story of India getting wind of Pakistani tests and testing in a hurry - I find it difficult to reconcile one point Why did India need to test in a hurry before they did? We would have had all the time in the world to watch them get sanctioned while diligently preparing for tests.
The "hurry" may have been Vajpayee and his earlier collapsed government perhaps?
Ramana has explained the "hurry" above.
For the same reason, to shore up the image of ABV and in effect put a lid on the fissiparous tendencies of the coalition.narayana wrote:the hurry could have been that the governments majority was razor thin and there were indications that jayalalitha may pull the rug any time, then PM ABV,LK Advani and others knew that it was now or never,and instead of taking chance for the next government they decided to go ahead in national interest and history will remember .
Five 20 KT can do nothing unless it first reach the target.shiv wrote:On the topic of "discussion" and X tickling Y on his need to say mine is bigger let me start off on a new angle..
What can a 150 kiloton bomb do that cannot be achieved by five 20 kioton bombs?
Good question. In terms of big (FBF) and small (FBF):Let me rephrase the question differently.
Does anyone have any idea whether one could use available and limited supplies of fissile material more efficiently (in terms of number of weapons, cost and maintenance and use) if one had an arsenal of bigger bombs rather than smaller ones.
Code: Select all
Bigger ones, Smaller ones
Number of weapons, Fewer need many times larger qty
Cost decidedly cheaper Mighty more expensive
Maintenance and security decidedly cheaper Much more expensive
Fissile material use slight advantage slight disadvantage Let it be more clear. Nuclear Weapon are tailor made system of warhead and delivery vehicle combination. Thus Sagarika, A1, A2,A3,A5 all will have a different ideal TN yield depending on CEP (which is amongst others a function fo range) of non-MIRV/MIRV configuration.What is the lower yield limit of an ideal thermonuclear weapon that meets the above requirements?
Also, the wily ABV brought upon Kargil, IC 814, Parliament and other attacks, Parakram, Kaluchak -- all to keep him in power. Wow! I mean Wow! Can we stop this?pankajs wrote: For the same reason, to shore up the image of ABV and in effect put a lid on the fissiparous tendencies of the coalition.
How much more Hyperbole one can throw?Kanson wrote:Why Kalam ? Becoz Kalam supported RC. So it is. Now, if Kalam cant talk abt Nuclear matters, ofcourse he is not a nuclear scientist, then BK/BC et al cannot even utter the word "nuclear" in their talk. You know Kalam started the Prithivi program and you know what is the payload of it. From that time to establishing the N command, he has played a role in all these thing.
Saar, I can only say that ABV is still remembered for Pokhran II in a very positive way. It is regarded as his legacy. It has enhanced his image like no other event in his 5 years. You have taken it in a different sense. Tell me which of the others have enhanced his image.ShauryaT wrote:Also, the wily ABV brought upon Kargil, IC 814, Parliament and other attacks, Parakram, Kaluchak -- all to keep him in power. Wow! I mean Wow! Can we stop this?pankajs wrote: For the same reason, to shore up the image of ABV and in effect put a lid on the fissiparous tendencies of the coalition.
Raoji, I enjoy reading your well balanced posts so this is not a knock, but is there really any chance of MMS approving a test when the text of the nuclear agreement supposedly renders the agreement null and void if India tests again?NRao wrote:Nope. Times Now ka Bap has contacts: GoI - or some within GoI. I suspect some within GoI have contacts within Times Now.Times Now has contacts in the US deep inside the nuclear establlishment?
Well............................. get ready .................................... India will test and then sign.
Both sides happy.
Policy cant happen in vaccum. If it, then that is hyperbole. Policy has to leverage upon some platform. Kalam was instrumental in providing that platform.Arun_S wrote:How much more Hyperbole one can throw?Kanson wrote:Why Kalam ? Becoz Kalam supported RC. So it is. Now, if Kalam cant talk abt Nuclear matters, ofcourse he is not a nuclear scientist, then BK/BC et al cannot even utter the word "nuclear" in their talk. You know Kalam started the Prithivi program and you know what is the payload of it. From that time to establishing the N command, he has played a role in all these thing.
One can more realistically say that Kalam knows ziltch about strategic policy (he admits that in WOP) and BK/BC/UB/KSubramanyam are the masters.
Shiv,shiv wrote:I don't know. It was above the water table and it nearly blew the top off and vented. If it was a fizzle and not a designed yield then it was a big risk. Either they knew it would fizzle or..pankajs wrote: For the S1, the device was placed at around 200m depth (memory). Now if masking was planned it would have to be deeper or it would not be contained.
JMT
And its seismic signature is likely to have been masked so nobody (neither desis nor firangis) would have a clue.
The May 13 tests were not picked up at all. If India has tested another 50 0.5 kt nukes in that area - nobody will know.
The question I have is did that "agreement" have any CTBT agreement built into it. I doubt it - considering this whole stuff has been a 'kick-that-can' affair.PratikDas wrote: ........... is there really any chance of MMS approving a test when the text of the nuclear agreement supposedly renders the agreement null and void if India tests again?
I remember seeing an aerial shot of a Chinese test on DD when I was young. They had a large semi-circle of trucks (presumably with instrumentation inside). The test resulted in the regulation seismic waves and a subsidence crater that stopped a few tens of meters from the trucks.shiv wrote:On the question of "reassuring the people" (apart from the highly aware elite such as we are) - I would love to be pointed to publicly available videos of underground tests made by other nations. I am guessing that this has not been necessary because every country has earlier done atmospheric tests and have pretty fireballs to demonstrate.
4. A nuclear test shaft is not a straight well. It is a curving cavern within a well which will auto seal itself when the bomb explodes. Venting occurs because the explosion is not contained by the earth above it and reaches the surface.A few brisk orders and the dozers started pushing huge mounds of sand into the well. Men with shovels joined the activity and within an hour they had not only sealed the well but also built a mini-mountain of sand around it. They then unwound a huge reel of wrist-thick cables till the black wire snaked all over the place. Satisfied they took out smoke canisters, placed a dozen on the mound they had just built and lit them up.
Ah! So we have some Top Scientists here too,With so many code names or words around, the conversation at times was bewildering even to those who were part of the loop. At least one top scientist told the team that he found it easier to do his physics calculations than decipher the code language. Would they please stick to normal words so that he could get his work done? The team demurred.
about the halal pingreji.
The device in NT 3 was pulled out and taken back under orders from R. Chidambaram, the Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) chairman, because he felt the team had the results they wanted with just five blasts. As he told the team laconically, "Why waste it?"
IOW, there was no evacuation. Just a precautionary measure to get people out of their homes. Chalta hai. Good thing the fizzle fizzled or they would all have been dead.On the morning of May 11, Major Mohan Kumar Sharma of the 58 Engineers drove up and requested Sohanram to keep the schoolchildren outdoors for a couple of hours.
