Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 01 Sep 2009 22:51

parijat
Now don't insult me by explaining what sort of good looks you meant. I know you did not mean blond and blue eyes or even tight a$$

Unfortunately still for a fair number of BR folks looks matter

We see the raving and ranting

1. as soon as scooter helmet picturte comes
2. as soon as sterling shows up
3. as soon as diff camo shows up
4. comparisons with slick, well machined foreign equipment

the list goes on.

So here is a question for you

You have a foreign SF with Camel water pack and you have an Indian SF with a Bisleri bottle,wrapped in camo. in his pack and a tube for drinking.

Now apply your "good looking" criteria???

I am absolutely OK - if the Indian SF is seen with a Bisleri bottle - If it does the job on the mission - then great.

If we can make a camelbak type for a few rupees than OK else the Bisleri bottle does the job.

I would rather spend the 10s of dollars on some other personal quipment than a Camel bak.

And lastly you seriously think the comical photo of the chinese commandos in their Segway's looked impressive?? So all the slick dressing could not hide the stupidity of that pic.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 01 Sep 2009 23:05

OK chaps if I can cool you chaps a bit.

A tight ars.e is important!

Gen Patton had said - Courage is nothing but keeping a tight arse.hole so that the brains don't fall out!

Hey! I was a soldier and I didn't have a Bisleri (and they still don't have, though they are on Maggi Noodles and not gur an channa as self bought survival rations) or Camelbak. I drank the stream water after using the chemicals which anyway was overdated!

Survived!

BTW, what is Camelbak?

Curious. Never seen one!

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 01 Sep 2009 23:11

Hi RayC

http://www.camelbak.com/en/government-m ... packs.aspx

BTW Bisleri bottle was just an example because its been seen in some pics - similar plastic bottle will do

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 01 Sep 2009 23:13

Just a gentle reminder to the talibs and maulanas, that suvorov fellow is quite dicredited when it comes to matters SOviet Military....to quote on Soviet Military Strategy Expert-->show me one thing Suvorov has written ans I'll show the bluffs/lies in it.....so lets not get all yuppity on those Spetzman Superman stuff....especially from this guy...

BTW, Brig.Naseerullah Babar (ISI-author of Bear Trap)..doe give lots of compliment to Soviet Para and Spetznaz troops...and the main reason being in army that had bulk of its troops from draft...Paras and Spetznaz were "volunteers" for what they did.....

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 01 Sep 2009 23:26

Subra,

Guess what?

I have used it. I got my brother to get it for me, since I was tired of the Pack 08. Very comfortable compared to the Pack 08. And I also got him to bring a Stainless Steel vacuum flask (very essential to carry tea!)

On an exercise high up in the High Altitude, the flask fell down 10,000 ft plus into the Valley and it broke my heart!

Rohit,

The Bear Trap was written by Brig Mohammed Yousaf of the ISI and Mark Adkin and published at Lahore (the one that I have).

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 01 Sep 2009 23:36

RayC Sir,

My bad. It is Brig Mohammed Yousaf. Been a long time since I read it....

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 01 Sep 2009 23:50

rohitvats wrote:RayC Sir,

My bad. It is Brig Mohammed Yousaf. Been a long time since I read it....

You are right.

Memory fades and so does mine!

That is why I have to keep all these books next to me, much to the anger of my wife since it clutters up the area!

After all, if I am wrong on the BRF, then I will be lynched!

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 01 Sep 2009 23:58

Dmurphy wrote:And so are the people's lives. "Something is better than nothing" logic in play here. Do you mean to say the terrorists won't come out unless there are commandos around? They're not bullet magnets you know. The chances of people getting saved is more in their 'BPJless' presence than when they are not there at all.

They did not realise at the last minute they needed BPJ's right? So knowing the date they would deploy on, the gear they need to deploy with should be present. "Something is better than nothing" does not always work. If terrorists want to attack, they will. Whether we send fully equipped and protected men, or men with partial equipment is upto us. I would rather our men stay alive so they are able to fight longer.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 02 Sep 2009 00:02

VikB wrote:
Rahul M wrote:..

don't look too shiny do they ? and yet their record was extraordinary !
Rahul M, can you please provide any online link to read about the above? It would be very educating to read about Spetnaz ops in Afghanistan.

boss I read up on them and other things while looking for material on my afghanistan article for the BR inhouse mag SRR.
http://brfrahulm.blogspot.com/2008/07/m ... oviet.html

the articles in the first two references are available on the net but needs some searching skills to find them.
there was one online link too but I can't find the revised article where I put them.

1) MOUNTAIN WARFARE: The Russian Perspective
by LTC John E. Sray , U.S. Army.
March 1994
(Foreign Military Studies Office Publication)
2) THE BEAR WENT OVER THE MOUNTAIN: Soviet Combat Tactics In Afghanistan.
Translated and Edited by LTC Lester W. Grau, U.S.Army.
Foreign Military Studies Office, Fort Leavenworth, Kansas.
August 1996 (National Defence University Press)

p.s. there's a good link in one of the comments. it has some nice pics.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 02 Sep 2009 00:06

Raja Bose wrote: I remember that quote. Its from one of Viktor Suvorov's books on Spetznatz - if possible try and read his books on Spetznatz/GRU/KGB...interesting reading. The best one I liked was Aquarium.

ah, I've been looking for ebook of suvorov for sometime, no chance of getting hardcopy here.
all I get are in russian !

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 02 Sep 2009 00:10

Well, if you guys could tolerate my 2 cents on this 'looks' topic, i have something to say.

Remember the time when we kids went to school? We all were asked to cut our hair, polish our shoes, wear clean uniforms, trim our nails etc. Leaving the cleanliness part of it aside, it all taught us kids to be disciplined. Through such, seemingly small, minor things . But it did teach us to be organised and project ourselves as decent, good students alright! Nobody brought out the "whats in the inside matters and not what one sees" when a good student was punished for unpolished shoes. Looking impressive is important -an innate thing and has a positive influence on one's surroundings.

In the exact same way, when a commando or for that matter even a soldier comes out looking 'impressive' with matching BPJs, shining guns and helmets it gives the impression of being organised. And these things don't really take time. If its inculcated in the minds of soldiers to not let the gun scrape around when on duty or to keep one's gear spic n span. I mean if such things are made a part of the training, it becomes as basic as holding the gun in a standard resting position or so to say.

Maybe these things don't really matter when the fireworks get going, but I understand the police/commandos in public are there not only for the very rare occasions when they are involved in some action, but also the time when they're there to reassure the public about safety n security with their presence, like in the case of the RPF commandos.

It tends to send out positive signals to the public and at the same time lets the pigs know that they're ready for them in full vigour and high morale.

JMT

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 02 Sep 2009 00:23

Surya wrote: So here is a question for you

You have a foreign SF with Camel water pack and you have an Indian SF with a Bisleri bottle,wrapped in camo. in his pack and a tube for drinking.

Now apply your "good looking" criteria???

I am absolutely OK - if the Indian SF is seen with a Bisleri bottle - If it does the job on the mission - then great.

If we can make a camelbak type for a few rupees than OK else the Bisleri bottle does the job.

I would rather spend the 10s of dollars on some other personal quipment than a Camel bak.

I guess you misunderstood me when I was talking about looking impressive.
Perhaps it was my fault that I was not sufficiently clear.

I never meant to imply that we should waste our money and our brave soldiers' lives by buying a good looking expensive equipment rather than an unimpressive looking but effective one.
What I mean is, get the best equipment that your money can buy but if, along the way, one tries to look neat, then what is wrong with that?
Eg:Buy the best BPJ available but at least cover it with matching cloth. It will surely not increase the cost of the equipment but will go a long way in making the soldier look more impressive.
As RayC Sir mentioned few posts earlier, if one can strike a balance by getting good looks without compromising on efficiency, then that is ideal.

Surya wrote: And lastly you seriously think the comical photo of the chinese commandos in their Segway's looked impressive?? So all the slick dressing could not hide the stupidity of that pic.

True. The pics were funny as the commandos were trying too hard and resulted in posing in various comical poses. The funniest part was that they seemed completely unaware of the ridiculousness of the situation.
However, those details were noticeable to you only because you, being a jingo, can differentiate between true professionalism and orchestrated show off. But as I have stressed repeatedly, psy-ops are not needed for jingos but for general public who are uneducated in military matters. Now please do me a favour. Show those pictures, which I myself admit to be ridiculous, to your friends. See how impressed they would be on seeing those pics.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 02 Sep 2009 00:46

It tends to send out positive signals to the public and at the same time lets the pigs know that they're ready for them in full vigour and high morale.

There is no doubt about that.

However, if all this is at the expense of an efficient machine, you will have impressive, high moral and dead people.

In West Bengal, the RAF wear blue commando camouflage. They are not jumping from the sky which is blue!! They look smarter than the pot-bellied police, but they don't blend and yet impressive!

I think we take too much of time out to look impressive. What matter is put the money where your mouth is!

Look at Israeli soldiers. They are scruffy and hardly impressive and quite disgustingly non-military like. Yet, they have kept the Arabs who surround them at bay!

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 02 Sep 2009 00:47

Parijat

you are right that if I show those pics to the avg non BRF person they might think its great BUT then its my task as better aware jingo to educate them rather than try to emulate them.

This started out on a comment on some mismatched BP and overalls.

I think we now agree that first lets sure they are professional and then if possible for the least cost be impressive.

What I am saying is that I would rather have the money for providing 10000 rounds of live ammo in a year than a color coordinated BPJ.

anyway I think we have yakked enough on this

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 02 Sep 2009 00:50

Completely agree with Dmurphy & Parijat......Coudn't have asked for more.....

Look at our SPG guys. It doesn't matter whether they are in suits or from counter assault team.....those shiny cream cargos with black BPJ's......

They can give any Secret Service guy a run for his money......

Parijat & Surya

Can you please upload some photos of chinese commandos from Olympics ? It would be nice to see those 5 feet kids posing in comical poses as parijat mentioned.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 02 Sep 2009 00:54

RayC wrote:However, if all this is at the expense of an efficient machine, you will have impressive, high moral and dead people.

C'mon sirjee, where did i imply that? Its just that i wanted to see some BRF jingos come off the "commandos are not ramp models" and "looks don't matter" rhetorics. Say, something like a matching BPJ or a well maintained (and hence shinier) gun would in fact help make the equipment more efficient. Totally 'not OK' with something as flashy as segways to impress the public!

In fact i always wondered what purpose segways serve in a CQB situation. Any ideas, gurus?

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 02 Sep 2009 01:08

sunny y wrote: Can you please upload some photos of chinese commandos from Olympics ? It would be nice to see those 5 feet kids posing in comical poses as parijat mentioned.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 02 Sep 2009 01:09

Sunny y,
Chinese commandos trying to look funky by showing random hand gestures which mean nothing:
http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/world-m ... -1393.html

Chines commandos doing a Paul Blart Mall Cop:
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm275155456/tt1114740
http://www.popgive.com/2008/07/chinese- ... orces.html

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 02 Sep 2009 02:34

Dmurphy wrote: In fact i always wondered what purpose segways serve in a CQB situation.

I, for one, find myself mystified by the same question. The only segway using force that I know of is the "snow wolf" commando unit of China.
Has anyone else know of any other military force using segways?

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 02 Sep 2009 03:53

Parijat Gaur wrote:Chinese commandos trying to look funky by showing random hand gestures which mean nothing:
http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/world-m ... -1393.html

How dare you say that it means nothing? Its an 'Oh shit, what have I done!' or an 'Oh shit, I killed the wrong guy gesture!'

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 02 Sep 2009 04:28

Dmurphy wrote:
Parijat Gaur wrote:Chinese commandos trying to look funky by showing random hand gestures which mean nothing:
http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/world-m ... -1393.html
How dare you say that it means nothing? Its an 'Oh shit, what have I done!' or an 'Oh shit, I killed the wrong guy gesture!'

looks like a patented "kya karu ram mujhe buddha mil gaya" gesture.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 02 Sep 2009 07:46

Parijat Gaur wrote:
Dmurphy wrote: In fact i always wondered what purpose segways serve in a CQB situation.
I, for one, find myself mystified by the same question. The only segway using force that I know of is the "snow wolf" commando unit of China.
Has anyone else know of any other military force using segways?

Did you just call those clowns on Segways a military force?!

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 02 Sep 2009 07:49

rohitvats wrote:Just a gentle reminder to the talibs and maulanas, that suvorov fellow is quite dicredited when it comes to matters SOviet Military....to quote on Soviet Military Strategy Expert-->show me one thing Suvorov has written ans I'll show the bluffs/lies in it.....so lets not get all yuppity on those Spetzman Superman stuff....especially from this guy...

BTW, Brig.Naseerullah Babar (ISI-author of Bear Trap)..doe give lots of compliment to Soviet Para and Spetznaz troops...and the main reason being in army that had bulk of its troops from draft...Paras and Spetznaz were "volunteers" for what they did.....

Well, all these accounts such as those of Suvorov have to be taken with a pinch of salt and one has to use some common sense to decipher fact from outright fiction.

Nevertheless his books make for quite interesting reading!

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 02 Sep 2009 07:52

RayC wrote: Hey! I was a soldier and I didn't have a Bisleri

Ray sir...not to worry...only the bottle in the pic was Bisleri (probably not the liquid in the bottle) - possibly a bottle reused by the jawan thats all.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 02 Sep 2009 08:31

"Every infantryman in the Soviet Army carries with him a small spade. When he is given the order to halt he immediately lies flat and starts to dig a hole in the ground beside him. In three minutes he will have dug a little trench 15 centimetres deep, in which he can lie stretched out flat, so that bullets can whistle harmlessly over his head. The earth he has dug out forms a breastwork in front and at the side to act as an additional cover. If a tank drives over such a trench the soldier has a 50% chance that it will do him no harm....."

We used to carry what was called an 'entrenching tool'. A small thing that have a shovel and pick on either side.

It is the natural drill for any soldier that if you are to wait more than 2 minutes, you did yourself in.

At least that was the drill in my time.

Gen Palit, the Comdt of IMA in my time had in a lecture to us said that that only way not to get killed is to 'dig, dig, dig!'

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 02 Sep 2009 09:07

Surya wrote: If we can make a camelbak type for a few rupees than OK else the Bisleri bottle does the job.

I would rather spend the 10s of dollars on some other personal quipment than a Camel bak.

Camelbaks are not standard issue in the US military. The Soldiers buy them on their own dime or ask they families to ship them to their bases in Iraq.

I have a friend who asked for one through his family while he was deployed in Ramadi.

As for Camelbak or bottled water, Camelbaks carry more water and it stays cool longer. Besides in Iraq you just cant refil from a stream or pop into somebody's house for water. I'm sure Indian soldiers would like to have them also, if they knew about them and had the ability to buy them.

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 02 Sep 2009 09:13

RayC wrote:
"Every infantryman in the Soviet Army carries with him a small spade. When he is given the order to halt he immediately lies flat and starts to dig a hole in the ground beside him. In three minutes he will have dug a little trench 15 centimetres deep, in which he can lie stretched out flat, so that bullets can whistle harmlessly over his head. The earth he has dug out forms a breastwork in front and at the side to act as an additional cover. If a tank drives over such a trench the soldier has a 50% chance that it will do him no harm....."
We used to carry what was called an 'entrenching tool'. A small thing that have a shovel and pick on either side.

It is the natural drill for any soldier that if you are to wait more than 2 minutes, you did yourself in.

At least that was the drill in my time.

Gen Palit, the Comdt of IMA in my time had in a lecture to us said that that only way not to get killed is to 'dig, dig, dig!'

Does the Indian Army use the same entrenching tool that the Spetnaz used in their operations ?

Also are Indian special force members taught hand-to-hand combat using this tool like the Spetnaz were ??

A link for your reference as to what I'm referring to: http://www.spetsnaz-gru.com/spetsnaz-en ... ovel-1.htm

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 02 Sep 2009 09:46

Brando wrote:

Does the Indian Army use the same entrenching tool that the Spetnaz used in their operations ?

Also are Indian special force members taught hand-to-hand combat using this tool like the Spetnaz were ??

A link for your reference as to what I'm referring to: http://www.spetsnaz-gru.com/spetsnaz-en ... ovel-1.htm

No.

Our entrenching tool was something like this:

http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1908/ ... ottom.html

Unarmed Combat is part of the training for all!

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 02 Sep 2009 09:50

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 02 Sep 2009 09:51

RayC wrote: No.

Our entrenching tool was something like this:

http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1908/ ... ottom.html

Unarmed Combat is part of the training for all!

I think what he meant was if the hand-to-hand combat training involved using the entrenching tool. The site he linked has a video of that tool being used like a weapon in hand-to-hand combat.

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 02 Sep 2009 10:44

Dmurphy wrote:
Parijat Gaur wrote:Chinese commandos trying to look funky by showing random hand gestures which mean nothing:
http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/world-m ... -1393.html
How dare you say that it means nothing? Its an 'Oh shit, what have I done!' or an 'Oh shit, I killed the wrong guy gesture!'

sunny y wrote:
......would be nice to see those 5 feet kids posing in comical poses as parijat mentioned.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 02 Sep 2009 11:09

Sriman wrote: I think what he meant was if the hand-to-hand combat training involved using the entrenching tool. The site he linked has a video of that tool being used like a weapon in hand-to-hand combat.

No.

I am not aware of such a training!

But then, if there is nothing else, anything to kill would do!

It is then a question of his life or mine!

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 02 Sep 2009 11:15

Rahul M wrote:
...http://brfrahulm.blogspot.com/2008/07/m ... oviet.html
the articles in the first two references are available on the net but needs some searching skills to find them.
there was one online link too but I can't find the revised article where I put them.
...
p.s. there's a good link in one of the comments. it has some nice pics.

Thank you

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 02 Sep 2009 13:22

How dare you say that it means nothing? Its an 'Oh shit, what have I done!' or an 'Oh shit, I killed the wrong guy gesture!'

Hilarious

These Segways looks more like hrithik Roshan's bike from koi mil gaya than something that you can use in CQB.

Seriously What are they trying to prove....look I can talk to aliens too bcoz I have Hrithik's bike...

Well good for the bad guys....because these commandos will be more concerned about preventing themselves from falling down rather than actually fighting....

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Sep 2009 10:12

from MOD report.

RB, note !

2.9 Joint Doctrines: The Joint
Doctrine for Amphibious Operations and
Doctrine for Employment of Joint Special
Forces for strategic and operational level tasks
were released on September 9 and September
30, 2008 respectively. Joint Psychological
Operations Doctrine, Joint Doctrine on Sub
Conventional Warfare, Joint Space Doctrine
and Doctrine on Joint Maritime Operations
are in the process of being prepared.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 06 Sep 2009 10:23

^^^ can you provide link to the above? Thx.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Sep 2009 10:51

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 72#p732372

but that's all the detail you'll get.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 06 Sep 2009 21:06

RayC wrote:
Sriman wrote: I think what he meant was if the hand-to-hand combat training involved using the entrenching tool. The site he linked has a video of that tool being used like a weapon in hand-to-hand combat.
No.

I am not aware of such a training!

But then, if there is nothing else, anything to kill would do!

It is then a question of his life or mine!

one Indian artilleryman in Kohima when over run by japanese troops used a spade or similar tool to beat to death several japanese soldiers in his gun trench before succumbing to his wounds. won a major medal i think...

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 07 Sep 2009 05:28

Rahul M wrote:http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 72#p732372

but that's all the detail you'll get.

Hopefully now the doctrine will be executed properly - earlier all such joint activities seemed to be organized ad-hoc on-demand.

NehraA · Post by **NehraA** » 08 Sep 2009 19:29

kltrivedi wrote:Mr. George,

The source is "Killer Instinct" a book written by retired well known Indian General. The book will be online shortly for everyone to read. The writer has extensive background or should I say the founding fathers of Indian SF. I will keep you updated. The book was published in 2002 I believe.

where can i get a pdf of "killer instinct" online, is it available?