Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

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Sanku
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by Sanku »

ShauryaT wrote:
Sanku wrote:
But BTW where did you get the 200 KT --> 5.9 figure? Finding a correlation between seismic activity and the yield produced is very tricky.

If the shaft was well designed a sufficient decoupling done, it is possible that various yields would not produce significantly large seismic activity than the previous one, i.e. no liner or higher (quadratic) correlation.
Here I used the Dumont test May 19, 1966 as the reference for the above. The list there has crater size and shaft depth.
Well that's as good as any I suppose, since every one including folks in the BARC are using models from external tests to make their points.

I have not found any earthquake (I have been googling) below 6 which has caused any substantial damage, even close to the epicenter, and earthquakes are always more sustained than tremors from a nuclear explosion.

The chart is also instructive, no 200 KT test has seismic signature greater than 5.9
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by enqyoob »

In photos: 'Italy Earthquake Aftermath'

By James Wray Apr 7, 2009, 18:44 GMT

Earthquake victims wait for the lunch in a tent camp in LAquila, central Italy, 07 April 2009. The death toll from an earthquake that struck central Italy on 06 April 2009 has risen to 179, according to the coordinating centre for rescue services from the battered town of LAquila. Of the dead, 40 bodies still need to be identified. An additional 34 people are still missing more than 24 hours after the earthquake, which registered between 5.8 and 6.2 on the Richter scale. EPA/PERI-PERCOSSI

Earthquake victims wait for the lunch in a tent camp in L'Aquila, central Italy, 07 April 2009. The death toll from an earthquake that struck central Italy on 06 April 2009 has risen to 179, according to the coordinating centre for rescue services from the battered town of L'Aquila. Of the dead, 40 bodies still need to be identified. An additional 34 people are still missing more than 24 hours after the earthquake, which registered between 5.8 and 6.2 on the Richter scale. EPA/PERI-PERCOSSI
Khetolai buildings in 1998 were not superior to Italian homes in 2009, AFAIK, but Khetolai residents would bleed just like Italians.
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by shiv »

The surface disturbance caused by a nuclear bomb depends on the depth of burial.

If you bury a 2megaton bomb deep enough, you will not get much surface disturbance.

Here is picture of the effects of a 12 kiloton bomb which was not buried.

Image
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by enqyoob »

I have not found any earthquake (I have been googling) below 6 which has caused any substantial damage, even close to the epicenter, and earthquakes are always more sustained than tremors from a nuclear explosion.
Found through Google by typing "5.8 earthquake death"
Police, volunteers and rescuers work on a collapsed house on April 6, 2009in the center of the Abruzzo capital L'Aquila, the epicenter of an earthquake measuring 5.8-magnitude on the open-ended Richter scale. At least 27 people were killed in an earthquake that struck central Italy as most people lay sleeping early on April 6, and the death toll was rising steadily after many homes collapsed in the Abruzzo region. AFP / Getty Images / Vincenzo Pinto
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by enqyoob »

I have not found any earthquake (I have been googling) below 6 which has caused any substantial damage, even close to the epicenter, and earthquakes are always more sustained than tremors from a nuclear explosion.
Found through Google by typing "5.8 earthquake death" - next link - this one to 1999
'From death to life': Three years after earthquake, El Cantaro celebrates new homes
Source: Mennonite Central Committee (MCC)

Date: 11 Feb 2002


by Elizabeth Soto and Frank Albrecht
ARMENIA, Colombia - Exactly three years after the earthquake that devastated this central highlands city, 125 families gathered Jan. 25 to celebrate the completion of their new homes and the future of their vibrant new community. Mennonite Central Committee (MCC) contributed $250,000 U.S. toward the project in partnership with Mencoldes, the relief and development agency of the Colombian Mennonite and Mennonite Brethren churches, and other agencies.

The new community, El Cantaro, is located on the outskirts of Armenia, in the municipality of La Tebaida. The families chosen to receive homes were identified as among the neediest. Most of them lost everything in the 1999 earthquake, which measured 5.8 on the Richter scale and killed 1,000 people.
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by Sanku »

ShauyraT,

I would like to clarify some more, if you would bear with me.

I have not found any earthquake (I have been googling) below 6 which has caused any substantial damage, even close to the epicenter, and earthquakes are always more sustained than tremors from a nuclear explosion.

The one quoted for Italy is
which registered between 5.8 and 6.2 on the Richter scale.
Of course measuring seismic signature w.r.t. yield is always very tricky.

However we know that
1) It takes a sustained earthquake -- as opposed to a pulse from a nuke -- to cause damage -- usually this number is above 6, rule of thumb.
2) Of the data you posted -- the MAX for 200 KT was 5.9, there were smaller numbers for 200 KT too, as low as 5 on the richter scale.

The above two data points, coupled with some confidence in the shaft design ability of Indian's leads me to believe that they could indeed which due diligence manage to carry out a 200 KT explosion without a issue should they choose to in Pok area.

Now the question of course remains whether S1 was indeed configured in that fashion or not, that is a little uncertain, however given the ancedotal data quoted by Ramana, I am inclined to believe that they indeed were trying for a 200 KT shot and had instrumented thus.
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by enqyoob »

I have not found any earthquake (I have been googling) below 6 which has caused any substantial damage, even close to the epicenter, and earthquakes are always more sustained than tremors from a nuclear explosion.
Found through Google by typing "5.6 earthquake death" - next link - this one to 1999

Algeria hit by 5.6 earthquake, five deaths reported
Source: Reuters
Date: Dec 22, 1999

An earthquake struck western Algeria Wednesday killing at least five people, state-run television and residents said. Residents reported heavy damage in the town of Ain Timouchant, 45 miles west of Oran which also felt the tremor. The television said the earthquake, which registered 5.6 degrees on the open-ended Richter scale, also shook the western province of Tlemcen. A quake of that intensity is powerful enough to cause heavy damage in a populated area.
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by pankajs »

Post 1998 test, views of RC on Simulation.
Link posted previously by Shiv saar. http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/papers5/paper451.html
Computer Simulation Capability
In the early days of nuclear weapon design, the physics knowledge - both in terms of experimental data and in terms of theoretical techniques - in areas like nuclear cross-sections, equation of state, radiation hydrodynamics, etc. was weak. There would be considerable discrepancy between the predicted yield of a test and the yield actually achieved and one or more parameters in the computer calculation package would be adjusted to achieve a match. But by 1998, when we refined our computer calculations for the designs we tested, physics knowledge had advanced tremendously in every field, whether it was the use of density functional methods for calculating the total energy of a material at any given pressure and temperature or the nuclear cross-sections for any isotope, with the result that such “fudging” was not necessary. If you get all your physics right, there is no basic difference between computer design calculations for a nuclear weapon and computer simulation calculations; after all, the same physics has to go into both. The computer design program developed by us was validated in parts through our own laboratory hydrodynamic experiments as well as by a few international benchmark data sets -- on marginal supercriticality experiments like GODIVA-II24, inertial confinement fusion-related experiments on radiation driven shock waves at various radiation temperatures25, etc. -- which are available in the literature. That is why there was such a good match between design and achieved yields in all our tests, including that of the thermonuclear device. In a large complex system like a nuclear weapon, the performance of an integrated test nowadays is the culmination of a large number of precise laboratory tests of subsystems and validation of individual parts of the computer simulation package through benchmark experimental data.
The same RC on Simulation prior to the 1998 test.
India's nuclear bomb: the impact on global proliferation
By George Perkovich
However, in early March (Perhaps 1998) AEC Chariman R. Chidambaram tipped the weaponeers’ hand in a largely unnoticed interview with an Indian journalist. Chidambaram began innocuously by saying that “We are prepared.., but it is [for] the policy makers to decide whether to go nuclear or keep the options open. He was asked whether computer simulations were adequate to develop nuclear weapons. Chidambaram responded, “Then what was the use of some countries going for 2,000 explosions?”
Yet Chidambaram effectively used the U.S. and Russian testing experiences to argue that nuclear explosions were necessary to increase the database for conducting computer simulations: “Higher the database, better the simulations””, he said.
Now in a few months, the position changes from “higher the database, better the simulations” to “we have all we need”.
The question that needs to be resolved is was this change of heart based on the one beautifully “perfect” tests as Dr. Anil Kakodkar calls these (From the 1st RC article) or was more political in nature.
Last edited by pankajs on 03 Sep 2009 21:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by enqyoob »

I have not found any earthquake (I have been googling) below 6 which has caused any substantial damage, even close to the epicenter, and earthquakes are always more sustained than tremors from a nuclear explosion.

Found through Google by typing "5.6 earthquake death" - next link - this one is 1989
More:

1989 Newcastle earthquake
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1989 Newcastle earthquake
Date 28 December 1989 (1989-12-28)
Magnitude 5.6 ML
Depth: 11.5 kilometres (7.1 mi)
Epicenter location: Boolaroo, New South Wales at 32°57′S 151°37′E / 32.95°S 151.61°E / -32.95; 151.61Coordinates: 32°57′S 151°37′E / 32.95°S 151.61°E / -32.95; 151.61
Countries/
regions affected Australia
Casualties: 13 dead and approximately 160 injured

The 1989 Newcastle earthquake was a Richter magnitude 5.6 earthquake that occurred in Newcastle, New South Wales on 28 December 1989, at 10:27 am.[1] It was one of Australia's most serious natural disasters, killing 13 people and injuring more than 160 others, and the damage bill has been estimated at AUD$4 billion (including an insured loss of about $1 billion).[1] The Newcastle earthquake was the first Australian earthquake in recorded history to claim human lives.[2][3]

The highest death toll and damage occurred at the Newcastle Workers Club, where the floor collapsed and nine people were killed and many more trapped beneath rubble.[1] Another three people were crushed to death under collapsed awnings on Beaumont Street, Hamilton, an inner-city suburb of Newcastle. Following the death of a woman in Broadmeadow from earthquake-related shock, the final death toll was raised to 13.[1]

The earthquake caused damage to over 35,000 homes, 147 schools, and 3,000 commercial and/or other buildings, with significant damage caused to 10,000 homes (damage worth over $1,000) and 42 schools (structural damage), within the immediate Newcastle area.

The number of people in the city on the day of the earthquake was lower than usual, due to a strike by local bus drivers.
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by shiv »

Sanku wrote: I am inclined to believe that they indeed were trying for a 200 KT shot and had instrumented thus.
In fact R Chidambaram says this in his paper

http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/papers5/paper451.html
The two-stage thermonuclear device, with a fusion-boosted fission trigger as the first stage and with the features needed for integration with delivery vehicles, was tested at the controlled yield of 45 kt and had the purpose of developing nuclear weapons with yields upto around 200 kilotons.
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by enqyoob »

I have not found any earthquake (I have been googling) below 6 which has caused any substantial damage, even close to the epicenter, and earthquakes are always more sustained than tremors from a nuclear explosion.

Found through Google by typing "5.5 earthquake death" - next link - this one is 2002
More:

Italy 2002

It remains to be seen whether the buildings that were destroyed, which include a hospital and at least one school, were constructed according to the national seismic standards that were implemented after the Irpinia tragedy. The last major Italian earthquake, which measured 5.5 on the Richter scale, struck in San Giuliano di Puglia in the southern region of Molise in 2002. A teacher and 27 children were killed in that quake after a school collapsed. In February, five people were found guilty of negligence, including the town's mayor, whose daughter was one of the victims.
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by munna »

narayanan wrote:
Found through Google by typing "5.5 earthquake death" - next link - this one is 2002
More:

Italy 2002
You got it all wrong enqyoob the honorable poster meant he has not seen an Earthquake (Richter scale 5.5 and above) in Khetolai causing damage. You are quoting TFTA lands while our SDRE Khetolai has far more quake tolerance.
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by Dileep »

The damages from an earthquake depends upon the magnitude as well as the depth of the epicenter. A direct comparison of the magnitude may be misleading.

The latur quake was 6.4 at a depth of 12 km, with severe damage. Using a simple square law fit, the equivalent richter value for 6 km would be 1/4 times, ie 6.4 - 0.6 = 5.9 on richter. So, a 5.9 magnitude is likely to flatten Khetolai
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by Manas »

I rarely post even though I keenly follow BR on a daily basis. I have read through the 40 odd pages
on this topic and observed a passionate debate arguing for/against the two view points.


a) Yes the TN yielded per the the design/test setup - we can scale the TN yield to 200KT
b) Nope - the secondary did not ignite completely, we need to restest to ensure a credible deterrent.


If one were to set aside the TN "successful or not"- the following larger issues are at the root of
this passionate discourse

a) Credibility of the deterrent
a) To retest the TN or not - test now, reserve the right to test (i.e. sign CTBT or not)
b) To sign FMCT or not
c) To sign NPT or not (if pushed into a corner)


There are 2 key doctrinal postures.

1) First use - biased towards 'counter force'
2) No First use - biased towards 'counter value'

It is also true that countries (such as India) that subscribe to NFU do NOT explicitly spell out "counter value" as a
key guiding principle of the doctrine - simply because talking about vaporizing huge populated cities
is a taboo. India's doctrine is NFU with the confidence & capability in a "Guaranteed Second Strike" (GSS) with the ability to inflict at the least "minimum unacceptable damage" to the adversary.


With the above background let us establish some working "undisputed assumptions" or "facts". These
have not been questioned by western experts or any of the knowledgeable forum participants.

1) India has sufficient fissile material to build 100's (if not 1000's of weapons)
2) India has a credible fission and boosted fission capabilty that can yeild 50 - 100KT
3) India has a credible missile arsenal with small CEPs
4) India is large country with good enough skills and capabilites for a strong C & C infrastructure
and disperse its arsenal to survive a first strike


If these 4 working assumptions remain unchallenged then only a irrational, insane decison maker in
China or TSP would question India's deterence credibility & GSS capability. Unless, one is dealing
with a suicidal, maniacal TSP general/el presidente that decides to take his country off the face of the
world map it is inconceivable that TSP would be successful with a "counterforce first strike" action.
The comrades in Beijing are closet capitalists and are not fool hardy to try their "counter force" adventures
vis a vis India.

Like beauty - deterrence is in the eye of the beholder. For some 50KT is not enough, whereas for others even
1 MT is not enough. The argument that 200KT is somehow more credible than 100KT runs against the
countervalue NFU posture.

Whether one believes Dr. RC or Dr. KS - each has their motive. May be Dr. KS was being truthful based
on his interpretation of the data. Or may be he sensed that CTBT pressure was building within the
New Delhi's power circles and strike pre-emptively to sabotage CTBT - or perhaps he was goaded by the
powers that be (with a wink and nod) to go "public" with his concerns. Or may be we missed the
clever word play in his quote (I think Dr. Shiv latched on this early on)
"According to western experts and seismology analysis it was partiall successful - so we should not
sign CTBT".

Regardless of what the actual truth is - I think Dr. RC, Dr. AK, Dr. APJK, Dr. KS everybody deserves
the respect for their service to the nation.

As regards the various 3, 4 letter treaties - India's position should be straightforward

1) Will sign CTBT under a few conditions
  • a) A new timetable, with revisions to the NPT provisions for universal disarmament
    b) Access to test/simulation data from the U.S., Russia etc, if not we will carry out a series of tests before signing.
    c) Recognize India as a NWS under NPT provisions - none of this IAEA "additional protocol" non sense.

    No more back door entry. We walk in through the front door.
2) Will sign FMCT under a few conditions
a) Same conditions as a, b & c above.

3) NPT - oh, now that we have a timetable for universal disarmament, hence NPT has lost its relevance.
Let us discuss a plan to implement a veriafiable universal disarmament plan.

So the Chai, Biscuit sessions go on & this tamasha will consume 8 years of Pres. Obama. Beyond that as Ramana says "parkalaam".
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by ramana »

Agreed Manas. Good program. Based on reality and not obfuscation.
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by Sanatanan »

2 Reports from PTI:
Santhanam's claim should be taken note of: Ex-AEC chief
STAFF WRITER 15:58 HRS IST

Bangalore, Sept 3 (PTI) Former Chairman of Atomic Energy Commission M R Srinivasan has said that ex-DRDO scientist K Santhanam's claim of the 1998 Pokhran nuclear test being a "fizzle" should be "taken note of" and called for "evaluation and examination" by country's security and nuclear apparatus.

"The point made by Dr Santhanam needs to be discussed by those who are in charge of the responsibility of ensuring the country's security," Srinivasan said.

"Dr Santhanam has made this statement and he stands by it. Those who are currently responsible for the country's security and its reliability must take note of it and evaluate what Dr Santhanam's perceived objections are. It should be done," he said in a telephonic interview with PTI here
Perhaps this is the first time Dr M.R Srinivasan has commented regarding the present controversy.
Encourage India and Pak to sign CTBT: Markey
STAFF WRITER 8:27 HRS IST

Washington, Sept 3 (PTI) Expressing concern over nuclear arms race in South Asia, a senior Democratic lawmaker, who opposed the Indo-US civilian nuclear deal, has asked the Obama administration to "encourage" India and Pakistan to sign CTBT and halt production of nuclear-weapon fissile material.

"The United States should encourage both countries (India and Pakistan) to abide by their current nuclear test moratorium and to sign and ratify the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban," Congressman Edward Markey said in a letter to Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.

Markey is founder of the House Bipartisan Task Force on Nonproliferation and had lobbied against the Indo-US civilian nuclear deal.

"The United States should encourage both countries to halt the production of nuclear weapons-usable fissile material, pending the entry into force of a globally binding Fissile Material Cutoff Treaty," he urged Clinton.
"encourage" == "armtwist" ?
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by Vinay_D »

Pakistan concerned over reports of India's new nuclear test: FO

Pakistan is concerned on reports that India is again preparing for a new nuclear test, the Foreign Office said on Thursday.

Pakistani Foreign Office Spokesman Abdul Basit made the remarks at his weekly news briefing.
The spokesman said there are reports that India has a new nuclear test in the works, adding these reports are rather embarrassing to Pakistan. :rotfl:

....
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by Arun_S »

shiv wrote:
Sanku wrote: I am sorry I missed it, which reference? And I suppose I was not clear as well, I was asking of the S1 shaft.
S1 shaft is quoted as being 200 meters in Raj Chengappa's "Weapons of Peace".
IMHO you are twisting and misquoting Raj Chengappa's "Weapons of Peace".
Will appreciate if you can refer to WOP again and tell us where exactly did Raj Chengappa's "Weapons of Peace" say the shaft was 200 meters?
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by Sanku »

Dileep wrote: The latur quake was 6.4 at a depth of 12 km, with severe damage. Using a simple square law fit, the equivalent richter value for 6 km would be 1/4 times, ie 6.4 - 0.6 = 5.9 on richter. So, a 5.9 magnitude is likely to flatten Khetolai
Possibly, however do note that the debate is complicated because a 200 KT yeild has shown a signature of 5-5.9 in US (as per data posted) so clearly the issue then becomes choosing the right shaft design as well as decoupling etc.

Which brings me to my basic point, going from
Yeild --> Seismic signature --> damage
is not a linear exercise.

Ab initio, there is no reason to assume that the S1 shaft design was done in a way that would have destroyed Khetolai, in fact I agree that no one expected Khetolai to be significantly damaged even if S1 was a success.


There were three explosions then, depending on the shaft design and depth, the damage could have easily come from the FBF as well.
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by Sanku »

Sanatanan wrote:Bangalore, Sept 3 (PTI) Former Chairman of Atomic Energy Commission M R Srinivasan has said that ex-DRDO scientist K Santhanam's claim of the 1998 Pokhran nuclear test being a "fizzle" should be "taken note of" and called for "evaluation and examination" by country's security and nuclear apparatus.
Well there is certainly a big line up backing KS now.

Probably the only remaining thing now is for Homi Bhabha to come back and chime in as well.
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by ramana »

ramana wrote:


...........

What is M.R. Srinivasan stance on this?
I guess he has spoken and backs KS.
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Post by Kanson »

Mw=Moment Magnitude, Ms=Surface Wave magnitude, Mb=Body Wave Magnitude, ML=Local Magnitude,

24 October 1969 - Dantrai-Jaswantpura area, Gujarat, Mb 4.9 (3).
24.76 N, 72.54 E, OT=11:45:55 UTC (3)
This earthquake is referred to as the Mount Abu earthquake. It caused minor damage to mud masonry buildings (3). The focal mechanism (3) for this earthquake indicated a thrust event with a small strike-slip component.

18 May 1974 - Pokhran Nuclear Test, Rajasthan, Mb 5.0 (3).
26.95 N, 71.70 E, OT=02:34:55 UTC (3)
This was the first nuclear test carried out by India at the Pokhran testing facility to the east of Jaiselmer.

08 November 1991 - Bersi-Tejrawa (Jaiselmer) area, Rajasthan, Mw 5.4 (11).
26.38 N, 70.66 E, OT=15:13:44 UTC (3)
Maximum intensity VIII (3). Few houses collapsed in Konoi village and 90% of the structures in the village developed cracks. A 500-metre long fissure was observed in the same village. It was felt over an area of 130 square kilometres, including at Jaiselmer, Barmer and Kishengarh.

11 May 1998 - Pokhran Nuclear Test, Rajasthan, mb 5.2 (10).
27.105 N, 71.802 E, OT=10:13:41 UTC (10)
The is the first nuclear test conducted by India after 1974. Three devices were detonated simultaneously. They consisted of (12) a 45 kiloton thermonuclear device, a 15 kiloton fission device and a subkiloton device. Interestingly this test was initially reported as an earthquake on the India-Pakistan border by the prototype International Data Centre (pIDC) which verifies the compliance of the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (CTBT).
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by Jagan »

Arun_S wrote:
shiv wrote:[
S1 shaft is quoted as being 200 meters in Raj Chengappa's "Weapons of Peace".
IMHO you are twisting and misquoting Raj Chengappa's "Weapons of Peace".
Will appreciate if you can refer to WOP again and tell us where exactly did Raj Chengappa's "Weapons of Peace" say the shaft was 200 meters?

It says "depth of over two hundred metres". implying just over two hundred metres.
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by ShauryaT »

Dileep wrote:The damages from an earthquake depends upon the magnitude as well as the depth of the epicenter. A direct comparison of the magnitude may be misleading.

The latur quake was 6.4 at a depth of 12 km, with severe damage. Using a simple square law fit, the equivalent richter value for 6 km would be 1/4 times, ie 6.4 - 0.6 = 5.9 on richter. So, a 5.9 magnitude is likely to flatten Khetolai
A clarification needed. My understanding is the longevity of a natural earthquake is higher than a one resulting from an underground blast. My understanding also is that a resultant damage at a certain distance (say 5 km) will be vastly different depending on whether the quake was from a nuclear or natural quake. If true, what is the likely damage at a 5 KM distance from a quake from a nuclear underground blast at about 200 meters or deeper say 300 meters, if it makes a difference.
Last edited by ShauryaT on 04 Sep 2009 00:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by Kanson »

Ab initio, there is no reason to assume that the S1 shaft design was done in a way that would have destroyed Khetolai, in fact I agree that no one expected Khetolai to be significantly damaged even if S1 was a success.
There is always a possibility of actual yield overshooting from the design yield. While deciding the shaft depth, this factor is considered of much importance. Here ketholai village is very close. Def. no one in their wildest possible dream want the village to suffer from radiation vented out in case of overshoot. This factor should be take care while discussing on shaft depth.
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by ShauryaT »

Manas wrote: As regards the various 3, 4 letter treaties - India's position should be straightforward

1) Will sign CTBT under a few conditions
  • a) A new timetable, with revisions to the NPT provisions for universal disarmament
    b) Access to test/simulation data from the U.S., Russia etc, if not we will carry out a series of tests before signing.
    c) Recognize India as a NWS under NPT provisions - none of this IAEA "additional protocol" non sense.

    No more back door entry. We walk in through the front door.
2) Will sign FMCT under a few conditions
a) Same conditions as a, b & c above.

3) NPT - oh, now that we have a timetable for universal disarmament, hence NPT has lost its relevance.
Let us discuss a plan to implement a veriafiable universal disarmament plan.

So the Chai, Biscuit sessions go on & this tamasha will consume 8 years of Pres. Obama. Beyond that as Ramana says "parkalaam".
I have a very serious issue with the above. It is exactly thest type of moral talks and a geopolitical stance bordering on hypocrisy and wanting a free ride that has NOT served our nation well and why dictators are respected more than our leaders. We should think a little on what this claimed chanakian approaches have gotten us and not assume that the world are a bunch of morons, who cannot read into what we intend or do.
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by Sanatanan »

From The Tribune, Chandigarh:
The Pokhran-2 controversy
India’s leadership and armed forces are satisfied with nuclear deterrent
by K Subrahmanyam
Top Indian nuclear scientists are fighting among themselves on the effectiveness of India’s nuclear tests in 1998. Dr K Santhanam, Dr P K Iyenger and Mr H N Sethna have claimed that the tests were not a full success. Reacting sharply, Dr A P J Abdul Kalam has rubbished the claims of the sceptics.
K Subrahmanyam, who has closely watched the growth of India’s nuclear programme from the beginning, has joined issue with the doubting scientists, pointing out that even a critical world has accepted India as a nuclear weapon power and the worth of its arsenal.
— Editor-in-Chief


THE present controversy over the yield of Pokhran-2 nuclear tests is not the first such development in this country of argumentative Indians. Pokhran-1 also had its share of controversy on its explosive yield. Since it was not claimed to be a weapon test at that time and there was no talk of nuclear deterrence, that controversy was less fierce than the present one. Then, too, there were people who termed it a dud.

I have heard personally Prime Minister Morarji Desai saying that there was no nuclear test and the scientists set off an explosion of a large quantity of buried conventional explosives. Others contested the claimed yield of 12 kilotons and asserted that it was only 8 kilotons. The result of the Pokhran-1 controversy survives till today and contributes to the present one. Many foreign scientists concede that they arrive at a lower yield of the Pokhran-2 test by extrapolating the lower yield of Pokhran-1 as advanced by some Indian scientists.

Controversies and personality clashes among scientists are not unknown. In the West, one has heard of the Oppenheimer-Teller clash or the one between Oppenheimer and E.O.Lawrence. In India, too, we had Bhabha-Saha clash and the deep divide between Dr Raja Ramanna and H. N. Sethna. When Vikram Sarabhai was the Chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission the relations between him and the Trombay establishment were quite cold. Scientists by the very nature of their vocation are highly individualistic people and they prefer to be convinced about a fact personally on the basis of evidence.

Nuclear physics is an arcane subject and in that weapon designing is even more esoteric. There are, therefore, limits to transparency on it. Moreover, this is India’s second fission test and first thermonuclear test. With the exception of two — Dr P. K. Iyengar and the late Dr Ramanna — all other weapon designing talent was involved in the Pokhran-2 test. Of the two outside, Dr Iyengar is a sceptic while Dr Ramanna, when he was alive, accepted the claimed yield.

All nuclear scientists are not necessarily familiar with the intricacies of weapon design. There is a popular tendency in the country to accept that all people associated with the Department of Atomic Energy are knowledgeable in the intricacies of nuclear weapons. This is not the case.

It has been widely propagated that many foreign scientists have questioned the yield of Pokhran-2. Usually when seismic stations monitored a nuclear test they used to announce the magnitude of the explosion in terms of ranges of yields as, for instance, a low- yield explosion of 5-15 kilotons or a medium-yield explosion of 15-60 kilotons. Very rarely was a precise yield reported. The ease with which many foreign assessments were made about precise yields made them suspect, especially when they were not familiar with geological structures and soil conditions at the test site.

The very first report from the West termed the test an earthquake. There could also be some resonance between the domestic scepticism and foreign assessments.

Dr Chidambaram, former Chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission and head of the weapon designing team in 1998, writing in “Atoms for Peace” (Vol. 2 No. 1, 2008), cites an article in New Scientist (Mackenzie 1998) where it said, “Roger Clark, a seismologist of the Leeds University found that when data from 125 stations — closer to the number required by the treaty (CTBT) monitoring network — are taken into account the estimate is nearer 60(kilotons)”. He also refers to the finding of a world-renowned seismologist, Jack Evernden, being consistent with the official claim.

The issue was examined in a review by then National Security Adviser, Brajesh Mishra. If the weapon designers had doubts about the yield they could have conducted one more test within the first few days after the May 11 test since one more shaft was available, before any commitment was made on voluntary moratorium.

Apparently, the weapon design team did not have any doubts on the result. But on the very first day the sceptics had doubts. There was a popular view that the thermonuclear test should be of 100 kilotons and above and, therefore, this could not be a thermonuclear explosion. In any case, the shaft could not have withstood any explosion higher than 60 kilotons.

Do we conduct some more tests to satisfy the sceptics? This cannot be publicly debated just as conducting the nuclear tests was not debated. The nuclear tests of 1998 were not to pre-empt any Pakistani move but were a response to the provocative Pakistani Ghauri missile test and also to declare India a nuclear weapon state in the early days of the new BJP-led NDA government before the Americans started applying pressure on India. At that time it was expected that the CTBT would come into force in 1999.

The late P. V. Narasimha Rao had urged Mr Vajpayee to conduct the test early in 1996. It could not be done in the 13 days the BJP was in office and was carried out in May 1998. Pakistan’s tests were in response to the Indian tests and the interaction between Pakistan and the US on the issue is a matter of public record. But Pakistan had its nuclear weapon tested by China at the Lop Nor test site on May 26, 1990, according to the disclosure in the book “The Nuclear Express” by two US scientists, Thomas Reed and Danny Stillman. India lived in a state of unfavourable deterrent asymmetry in the nineties till the Shakti tests were carried out.

As Prime Ministers V.P. Singh and I.K. Gujral explained after the tests, the file to test was always on their table. Narasimha Rao came close to conducting the test. But only Vajpayee could do it by taking the world by surprise. During all that time there were no TV debates or newspaper editorials or strategists screaming about India’s vulnerability.

India became a nuclear weapon power and in the next eight years its strategic arsenal has been accepted by the international community. India has also the NSG waiver. All that happened in spite of opposition from sections of our people who preferred a confrontationist strategy with the international community.

The government leadership is satisfied with the state of our deterrent posture and so also the armed forces. In the US and Russia, too, there are people dissatisfied with the readiness of their arsenals and would like to resume testing. But the majority public opinion in those countries is opposed to it. Fission weapons of 60-80 kilotons have been successfully fabricated and standard thermonuclear warheads of today are neither in megatons nor in hundreds of kilotons. Our fission weapon capabilities are not under question. So long as the adversary believes that the nuclear explosions in his cities will cause him unacceptable damage he will be deterred.

Whether it is the CTBT, the FMCT or conducting nuclear tests, it is counter-productive to look at these issues in a narcissistic manner. We should try to exploit the opportunities as they arise. This country is just learning to do it and we have a long way to go. The need of the moment is to avoid chauvinism and steadily improve the capacity of the country to grow and deliver without demagoguery.
Last edited by Sanatanan on 03 Sep 2009 23:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by John Snow »

THese days I respect K Subhramnayam garu as much as I used to do Dr. Wallace garu!
Last edited by John Snow on 03 Sep 2009 23:19, edited 1 time in total.
ShauryaT
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by ShauryaT »

Question: Who's brainchild was the moratorium? BM?
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by Sanku »

Kanson wrote:
Ab initio, there is no reason to assume that the S1 shaft design was done in a way that would have destroyed Khetolai, in fact I agree that no one expected Khetolai to be significantly damaged even if S1 was a success.
There is always a possibility of actual yield overshooting from the design yield. While deciding the shaft depth, this factor is considered of much importance. Here ketholai village is very close. Def. no one in their wildest possible dream want the village to suffer from radiation vented out in case of overshoot. This factor should be take care while discussing on shaft depth.
Certainly, there would be a margin of error, however venting and earthquakes are two very different things. Venting also depends on plugging the hole well as well. I suppose the scientist would have factored for both.

And there have been 200 KT yields with signatures of as less as 5.0. So I would argue that with care we can easily have a case where we can have a set up for 200 KT Nukes.

In fact the paper that Shiv referred to, said that it was restricted to 45 KT yield to mimic Agni warhead behavior and the shaft could handle up to 100 KT. This multitude of varying reasons or even excuses for a justifying a 45 KT yield leads to serious doubt (apart from the opinion of insiders)

We also have other anecdotal evidence saying the shaft was for full 200 KT yield.

Based on the above -- I would argue that
1) It was certainly possible to have a 200 KT yield if needed.
2) Most probably the weapon was indeed tried for 200 KT, but I am not sure of this.

Remember this was once in a lifetime chance not only for the scientist but looks like for the entire nation. No one would try a weapon which was for data gathering etc.
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by ramana »

Some of the arguments in Amitabh Mattoo and K.Subramanyam's articles are similar. Yes the govt and the forces can be satisfied with what they have (do they have choice after the tests!) but it should not claim S-I was successful when its not.

Dont mind lekin, the arguments about being content with fission weapons is like the fox and the sour grapes.
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by ShauryaT »

ramana wrote:Some of the arguments in Amitabh Mattoo and K.Subramanyam's articles are similar. Yes the govt and the forces can be satisfied with what they have (do they have choice after the tests!) but it should not claim S-I was successful when its not.

Dont mind lekin, the arguments about being content with fission weapons is like the fox and the sour grapes.
ramanaji: I am still not convinced that Khetolai is the likely reason for an explosion in the <50kt yield. What is your best guess estimate of the shaft depth, if you are willing to guess it based on 200kt design?
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by sudeepj »

simple question.

If the shaft for S1 was ~200 meters, in alluvium that does not bulk, and a 45KT event happened inside, is it possible that there is no subsidence crater?
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by enqyoob »

More on the utter "chalta hai" at Magnitude 5.4:
The last major quake to hit central Italy was a 5.4-magnitude temblor that struck the south-central Molise region on Oct. 31, 2002, killing 28 people, including 27 children who died when their school collapsed.
So Mag. 5.4 kills. Mag 5.5 kills. Mag 5.6 kills. Mag 5.7 kills. Mag. 5.8 kills - Mag. 5.9 kills. The history is plainly there, right at the top in Google searches, though some people could not see any evidence of any problems below 6.0

The "fizzle" caused at least Mag 5.2 in Khetolai, some say 5.4. With a 43KT blast. Damaged houses, etc. but the designers did not consider it necessary to any more evacuation than that, showing what magnitude they expected.

And.. drumroll.. the conclusion after seeing all that is....
We also have other anecdotal evidence saying the shaft was for full 200 KT yield.

Based on the above -- I would argue that
1) It was certainly possible to have a 200 KT yield if needed.
2) Most probably the weapon was indeed tried for 200 KT, but I am not sure of this.
Says it all, doesn't it?
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by sudeepj »

Original question: If S1 was 45KT in a shaft ~200meters deep, in a non bulking medium like alluvium, where is the subsidence crater?

Either the darn thing was in granite that bulks (so excellent coupling), or it was buried a lot deeper than 200 meters.

For comparison purposes,

http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Usa/Tests/Nts.html

Test: Huron King
Time: 15:10.00.74 24 June 1980 (GMT)
Location: NTS
Test Height and Type: Shaft, -1050 Feet
Yield: <20 kt
Image

You can also see from comparison with the trucks parked close by, that the crater if fairly large, of the order of several 10s of meters at least, up to a couple of 100 meters at most.
Last edited by sudeepj on 04 Sep 2009 01:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by sudeepj »

narayanan wrote: So Mag. 5.4 kills. Mag 5.5 kills. Mag 5.6 kills. Mag 5.7 kills. Mag. 5.8 kills - Mag. 5.9 kills. The history is plainly there, right at the top in Google searches, though some people could not see any evidence of any problems below 6.0
It kills if people are in their URM homes when the quake strikes, or if the quake produces a surface rupture that runs right under their houses, or if it produces land slides that sweep away neighborhoods.

Khetolai being 5 kms away from the epicenter, with people being evacuated IMO (just asked to sit outside their houses in Narayanans opinion), would have suffered 0 casualties.
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by ramana »

sudeepj wrote:
Original question: If S1 was 45KT in a shaft ~200meters deep, in a non bulking medium like alluvium, where is the subsidence crater?

Either the darn thing was in granite that bulks (so excellent coupling), or it was buried a lot deeper than 200 meters.
Explain your terms better so people can follow you. Are there any other possibilities?
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by sudeepj »

ramana wrote:
sudeepj wrote:
Original question: If S1 was 45KT in a shaft ~200meters deep, in a non bulking medium like alluvium, where is the subsidence crater?

Either the darn thing was in granite that bulks (so excellent coupling), or it was buried a lot deeper than 200 meters.
Explain your terms better so people can follow you. Are there any other possibilities?
Some folks have advanced the claim that S1 was in 200 meters deep shaft, that obviously could not take a 100KT shot, so the test was limited to 45KT. The next claim is that because Pokhran test range has sandy alluvium, there was poor coupling (transfer of energy from the shot to the earth) so the seismic readings were lower than one would expect.

The term bulking in this context means that material in which the test takes place, shatters under the shock wave, but because its hard, its able to hold up its weight against gravity and refuses to form a subsidence crater. Such a material would be granite or other basaltic rock. Such a material is also excellent for coupling the test energy (see above).

We also know that a 20KT test in the Nevada Test Site, in sandy alluvium, buried at 1050 feet (~320 meters), produced a *huge* subsidence crater. (See post above).

Now the S1 test shot did not produce a subsidence crater. How can we explain that?

- Either the test was in granite strata (in which case the energy from the test would be nicely transmitted as seismic waves)

- The test was in alluvium, but was a lot deeper than 200 meters, so the test failed to produce a subsidence crater. This possibility indicates that the shaft was capable of taking a much bigger shot..

In any case, my question is very simple. How can a 45KT shot, buried 200 meters deep, in an alluvium medium, fail to produce a subsidence crater?
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by ramana »

Could it be because it was less than that?
------------
Anyway some prespective to think about:

X-posted from Indo-US thread.....
Camelot or estrangement: US-India relations in Obama era
By Harold A. Gould
Hillary Clinton, America’s Secretary of State in the Obama administration, made her pilgrimage to India (July 17-21) for the purpose of determining the nature of the relationship which the world’s two largest democracies will pursue with each other now that the George W. Bush administration has run its course.

There is a touch of almost romantic irony in the fact that for the first time in US history the country’s foreign policy has been conducted in sequence and across successive administrations by women secretaries of state.

This is an especially poignant fact with respect to US-India relations because Clinton’s predecessor, Condoleezza Rice, during her tenure as secretary of state (June 26, 2005, to Jan 20, 2009) is credited with being a leading proponent of the Bush administration’s late-blooming determination to forge a strategic relationship between the US and India, while Hillary Clinton, during her tenure as first lady during the Clinton administration in the 1990s, helped create the favourable atmosphere that paved the way for her husband’s epoch-making “de-linking” of US policy towards India and Pakistan.

The Bush policy towards South Asia was a striking manifestation of a growing diminution of the influence of the neo-conservative faction which had dominated American foreign policy throughout the president’s first term, and had wrought the disastrous Iraq war, burgeoning budget deficits in order to fund it, diminished American international prestige, and mounting controversy over the propagation of state-sponsored torture such as water-boarding and so-called ‘rendition’ (transporting prisoners to countries that condone torture).

One of the first symptoms of the political disarray which heralded this diminution in neo-con influence on president Bush was the resignation of General Colin Powell that created the vacancy in the State Department which Condoleezza Rice could then occupy. Rice had been head of the National Security Council, enjoyed a special insider relationship with the president, and was known to be an advocate of a more flexible, less ideologically strident approach to foreign policy, including rapprochement with India.

Rice, in fact, regarded democratic India as an especially fertile venue for demonstrating her determination to significantly alter the tone and objectives of American diplomacy throughout the world.

Her status as secretary of state with the power, prestige and flexibility to uninhibitedly shape the Bush administration’s foreign policy was materially enhanced by the departure of then defence secretary Donald Rumsfeld, and then deputy defence secretary Paul Wolfowitz, from the Pentagon, and perhaps even more crucially, by a gradual estrangement between Bush and the supreme proponent of neo-con doctrine, then vice president Dick Cheney.

Originally designated by the neo-con establishment as ‘keeper’ of a politically inexperienced George W. Bush, Cheney had originally been the undisputed power behind the throne who called the political shots. But with the passage of time, Bush gained confidence, ‘grew into the job’, as it were, and with new, more stable advisers, like Ms Rice, and Robert Gates as secretary of defence, in the face of mounting failure of key neo-con policies, both at home and abroad, grew more independent. As a recent Washington Post article stated: “In the second term, (Cheney) felt Bush was moving away from him.” And this was true.

It will be the task of history to determine whether this trend was the inevitable result of Bush’s ‘on-the job maturation’, or the by-product of increased intercession by the father, former president George Herbert Walker Bush, and his more senior, politically mature associates like General Brent Scowcroft and James A. Baker.

Cheney’s emerging successor, as far as influencing foreign policy is concerned, was Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. Her goal was to bring American foreign policy back into the mainstream of international diplomacy, and within the ambit of this altered conception of the use of American power, latitude for a formalised strategic relationship with India.

Thanks to her initiative and the diplomatic skills of her principal assistant, then under secretary of state for political affairs Nicholas J. Burns, the Non-Proliferation Enhancement Act was signed Oct 10, 2008.

One of the least appreciated aspects of the process which led to this momentously important rapprochement between the world’s two largest democracies was the outcome of the remarkable two-and-a-half-year dialogue between Strobe Talbott, the Clinton administration’s deputy secretary of state, and Jaswant Singh, then India’s external affairs minister in the Bharatiya Janata Party-led government of Atal Bihari Vajpayee.

As is well known, the two diplomats met 14 times between June 1998 and September 2000. The outcome of this dialogue unquestionably created the foundation for the strategic agreement that ultimately was achieved by the Bush administration through Condoleezza Rice and Nicholas Burns, and whatever might follow under the aegis of Hillary Clinton and the Obama administration.

But contrary to the conventional assumptions about why the Talbott-Singh dialogue achieved what it did (that there was a profound meeting of minds and sentiments between the two men), the actual reason was because India had neither signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) nor ratified the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (CTBT).

Had it been otherwise, Talbott by his own admission, in his book (”Engaging India: Diplomacy, Democracy and The Bomb”), concedes that the US probably would not have been able to achieve any treaty arrangement which allowed India to retain a nuclear weapons capability on the terms it sought for itself. This is because the non-proliferation constraints inherent in these treaties, combined with the influence of the non-proliferation lobby in the United States, would have prevented it.

Quite apart from the technical issues, Talbott admits that had the NPT and CTBT been in effect under US and international law, he himself would have insisted on an agreement between the two countries dependent on India’s conformity to the letter of the treaties’ non-proliferation strictures. He was not in his heart personally favourably disposed towards India achieving the special status it sought and obtained through some sort of agreement.

In the actual circumstances, therefore, Talbott bowed to a kind of ad hoc pragmatism, partially at least because: “Jaswant Singh achieved more of his objectives than I achieved of mine.” It was, in other words, because Jaswant Singh proved to be a highly, skilled and ethical negotiator who convinced Talbott that any agreement that could be had would have to be based on allowing India to retain her weapons capability and re-processing rights, and trusting that India would be a morally responsible nuclear state despite the misgivings of the orthodox non-proliferation community.

So now Hillary Clinton and President Obama are the legatees of this somewhat arcane process which led to the US-Indian Strategic Agreement which entitles India to remain a respectable nuclear power in the eyes of the international community, buttressed with an array of special ties to America. Secretary Clinton and India’s External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishna issued a joint statement in which they “agreed to strengthen the existing bilateral relationships and mechanisms for cooperation…”

What remains questionable is how harmoniously this relationship will endure when the differences in perspective between the new administration and its predecessor surface on the critical issues of non-proliferation and global climate change. In the words of Strobe Talbott: “Mr. Obama… is committed to ratifying the CTBT, strengthening the NPT, and pursuing other treaties to prevent the spread of dangerous material and technology.”
Should this happen, the zone of ambiguity which benefitted the Talbott-Singh dialogue will disappear, which will pave the way for the re-entry of the non-proliferation hardliners back into the fray, and lead to US-Indian relations, including the strategic agreement, relapsing back into ‘estrangement’.
Since Obama also favours replacement of the Kyoto protocol with “a treaty-based climate-control regime including India, China and other emerging powers”, this could become another area of stress and tension down the road.

Should this happen, it remains to be seen if the now substantial Indian-American community would become a new variable in mediating and ameliorating differences between the two countries.

But whatever happens, it must be realised that the last 20 years of Camelot might be facing some serious challenges.

(Harold Gould is a visiting scholar in the Centre for South Asian Studies at the University of Virginia. He can be contacted at [email protected])
Quite challenging time for MMS. He needs all the ammo he can use.
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Post by ShauryaT »

If I am not mistaken, there was a claim that the rock strength approached Granite like rocks at a certain depth and hence the lack of the subsidence crater. All known indications seem to indicate that Pokhran has sand stone.

(changed: Earlier said rock sand)
Last edited by ShauryaT on 04 Sep 2009 03:02, edited 1 time in total.
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