MRCA News and Discussion

[VijayKumarSinha]

You have it backwards, the F-35 wasn't designed with maneuverability as a top priority (although it still is very good, comparable to F-16) BECAUSE they found it didn't matter.

Didn't matter as in F-15's and 16's getting beat by Su-30, Su-30MKI's and Mig-29's in cope India exercises? Maneuerability is and always will be relevant, that is when you run out of much bigger and fewer in number BVR weapons against a numerically superior enemy and are forced to use the WVR weapons and would have to resort to dog-fighting tactics in that process.

They have an engine that they are satisfied with (the F135).

The question is whether they want an alternate engine (the F136) to introduce price competition in the future.

No, not just U.S.A but also a colder country like Netherlands had doubts about the current engines VTOL capabilities that is why they were pushing the F136 program which has a plethora of new features and it is not just about price competition as you would like to believe.

[Kartik]

1. Yes smoke was an issue and I used to hate it see it smoke that badly , for an other wise beautiful looking aircraft , but IAF is going for RD-33 Series 3 , hopefully that stops the black smoke.

it was partly due to detuning of the RD-33 to extend its service life as well. with higher MTBO and MTBFs and a new smokeless combustor for the newer RD-33MKs, this issue may not be seen for the MiG-29K and MiG-35.

2. Russia may lack in some aspect perhaps avionics but compensates with better other things like weapons.

may have been true in the Soviet era, but there hasn't been a single new Russian AAM that has entered production after the split of the USSR. even the newer upgrades to the R-77 and R-73 are desperately needed just to keep them current. a next Meteor or AIM-120D type AAM is sorely lacking from the Russian inventory.

[Raveen]

Didn't matter as in F-15's and 16's getting beat by Su-30, Su-30MKI's and Mig-29's in cope India exercises? Maneuerability is and always will be relevant, that is when you run out of much bigger and fewer in number BVR weapons against a numerically superior enemy and are forced to use the WVR weapons and would have to resort to dog-fighting tactics in that process.

Yes, but we didn't let them play BVR games with us cuz of Radar sig secrecy issues...eventually it boils down to: dogfighting capabilities are extremely important...as long as u have ability to either survive the enemy's BVR game or your BVR game > enemy's BVR game

and with that I take a bow...on having surpassed 50 posts!
thank you BR brothers for your replies, love and (sometimes) hate

[Bala Vignesh]

3. The Atlantique was not engaged in a dog fight, which makes it easier to shoot down with a gun rather than a supersonic dog fighter with agility where one would have to resort to missiles
Proven by the fact that we can't remember the last gun only dogfight kill for IAF?

The PN Antlantique was shot down because it violated Indian airspace... So, when the IAF intercepted it, the pilot of the Atlantique was to be observed by one pilot while his wingman moved in to signal him visually... When he was told to land at Jamnagar (assuming it since its the base closest to the Rann of Kutch) he tried to hightail out of there... At that point of time it would be useless to chase him and then shoot him with guns, which would be time consuming and by which time he may have entered Pakistani airspace. Hence the only choice was to shoot it down with a missile.

This is just my 2 cents about your point... Please enlighten me if i am wrong....

Congrats on the 50th post...

And as for IAF being unsatisfied with MiG 29, that's not true... And this is proven by the fact that they are at the forefront of our Air Defence and are currently receiving a massive upgrade...

[Raveen]

3. The Atlantique was not engaged in a dog fight, which makes it easier to shoot down with a gun rather than a supersonic dog fighter with agility where one would have to resort to missiles
Proven by the fact that we can't remember the last gun only dogfight kill for IAF?

The PN Antlantique was shot down because it violated Indian airspace... So, when the IAF intercepted it, the pilot of the Atlantique was to be observed by one pilot while his wingman moved in to signal him visually... When he was told to land at Jamnagar (assuming it since its the base closest to the Rann of Kutch) he tried to hightail out of there... At that point of time it would be useless to chase him and then shoot him with guns, which would be time consuming and by which time he may have entered Pakistani airspace. Hence the only choice was to shoot it down with a missile.

This is just my 2 cents about your point... Please enlighten me if i am wrong....

Congrats on the 50th post...

And as for IAF being unsatisfied with MiG 29, that's not true... And this is proven by the fact that they are at the forefront of our Air Defence and are currently receiving a massive upgrade...

There were well documented issues with the Mig-29s
but that's beside the pt
as far the Antlantique goes, whynot let loose your guns and blow out it's engine since it can't out manouvere you instead of an R-60?
He is subsonic, you are supersonic, he is big and can not dogfight, you can...and you are 10 miles within your territory...I'd go for guns if they represented the chosen method as per our GOP...why didnt we? why arent guns the first choice in downing a bogey?
cause an R-60 is a much easier way of doing it...
that's all I was trying to suggest...missiles represent an easier and generally more effective and accurate way of downing a bogey...last resort of course let loose your cannon...but the days of firing guns as your first choice are loooooooooooong gone
just my $.02...now we got $.06 (including my $.02 from earlier) anyone else want to contribute to this chanda? we can then decide a worthy cause for all our cents

Thanks on the congrats

[Gog]

...

[ramana]

Why are we discussing Atlantique shootdown in this thread?

[Raveen]

Why are we discussing Atlantique shootdown in this thread?

Saar it started with humble discussion of Mig-35's gun slinging capabilities vs. Shornet's

end result: both are Veerappans, but not sure if Veerappan is relevant anymore

[Cain Marko]

it was partly due to detuning of the RD-33 to extend its service life as well. with higher MTBO and MTBFs and a new smokeless combustor for the newer RD-33MKs, this issue may not be seen for the MiG-29K and MiG-35.

After his sortie in a 35, Vishnu Som pointed out that the RD-33MK smokes more or less the same as an F-18 414 or any other engine. The videos of the 35 @ maks 09 also don't show any inordinate smoke sig.

may have been true in the Soviet era, but there hasn't been a single new Russian AAM that has entered production after the split of the USSR. even the newer upgrades to the R-77 and R-73 are desperately needed just to keep them current. a next Meteor or AIM-120D type AAM is sorely lacking from the Russian inventory.

Kartik,
The russians have been slow in some ways but not so in other ways. For example, europe simply had no answer to the R77 until the MIca came along and it is a tad short on legs. INterestingly the R77 finds no place in the VVS it was purely for an export market. New weapons for the Su-35 are already ready and the VVS will now have v.credible BVR AAM options.

CM.

[Cain Marko]

The French are unhappy with Spectra because of its limited capabilities and the Rafale does not come with OSF anymore.

BS! The french are more than happy with the spectra and the OSF is available to any customer that wants it.

Basically the Rafale has no unique advantages in the avionics side and is inferior kinetically to the EF in most respects with a higher pricetag to boot.

Its called the Mica IIR. As far as the price goes, while the EF and Rafale might be closely tied,they hardly have to worry since the shornet blows em both away @ $ 200 mil a pop. In terms of kinetics, sure the ef-2000 maintains more energy, but the rafale is as good if not better at turn rates. Btw, thats a LOT better than the f-18/16/Gripen anyway, so for the MRCA race, it is already at the top in terms of A2A.


It also suffers the same fatal flaw as the EF in that there is a distinct lack of commitment to keeping it modernized. Getting the French government to fund upgrades has been like pulling teeth.[/quote]

Sure sure! No wonder they have a confirmed AESA for it circa 2014 not to mention improvements to the EW and OSF. The fact that they plan to use them for the next 30 odd years should give the IAF plenty of confidence.

CM

[Cain Marko]

In theory, but the MiG-29 has been trying to do that for THIRTY YEARS and still hasn't managed it.At some point you have to acknowledge that Russia will NEVER catch up in avionics because they simply don't have the money.

Hilarious! So all those new avionics on the MiG-29M, SMT, 35; Su-30MKI, Su-35 are just vapor ware eh? Good grief, you'd think only the americans can do anything good at this rate.

As far as gun kills, the SH can point its nose with the best of them.

yes as seen clearly from that GAO report.

I have read some unadulterated fanboyism before but GW, you do take the cake. A complete inability to look at even a single flaw in your favorites makes your posts totally skewed.

CM.

[Raveen]

shornet blows em both away @ $ 200 mil a pop.

unsubstantiated
we dont know how much any of the aircraft cost, we are just using yindoo logic and vedic math...so as far as price goes, a lot remains to be seen

[Cain Marko]

shornet blows em both away @ $ 200 mil a pop.

unsubstantiated
we dont know how much any of the aircraft cost, we are just using yindoo logic and vedic math...so as far as price goes, a lot remains to be seen

Sorry, very much substantiated - yindoo logic aint madrassa magic. The report on the cost was put up by me as well as philip before. The FAB offer makes the shornet @ $ 200 mil a pop with a paltry weapons pckg. Also corroborates well with the RAAF deal. At this point in time thats the best we can do with open sources.

CM.

[KrishG]

Sure sure! No wonder they have a confirmed AESA for it circa 2014 not to mention improvements to the EW and OSF.

France is yet to fund the 90 kN version of M-88. They are yet to fund a replacement (or an advanced version) of Spectra.

[Raveen]

unsubstantiated
we dont know how much any of the aircraft cost, we are just using yindoo logic and vedic math...so as far as price goes, a lot remains to be seen

Sorry, very much substantiated - yindoo logic aint madrassa magic. The report on the cost was put up by me as well as philip before. The FAB offer makes the shornet @ $ 200 mil a pop with a paltry weapons pckg. Also corroborates well with the RAAF deal. At this point in time thats the best we can do with open sources.

CM.

and for all we know IAF might be offered a better/worse deal, so basically yindoo logic and vedic math, yet unsubstantiated

[Cain Marko]

and for all we know IAF might be offered a better/worse deal, so basically yindoo logic and vedic math, yet unsubstantiated

Boss, it is obvious that we can't go by what may be offered to the IAF in the future. However, it should be equally obvious for one who claims vedic math/logic that deals that have happened in the past give a v.good indication of what the a/c can cost.

Otherwise, whether india gets the MRCA or not itself is up for speculation. For all you know the deal could be cancelled since we don't have the "substantive" proof of it having happened as yet.

CM.

[Raveen]

and for all we know IAF might be offered a better/worse deal, so basically yindoo logic and vedic math, yet unsubstantiated

Boss, it is obvious that we can't go by what may be offered to the IAF in the future. However, it should be equally obvious for one who claims vedic math/logic that deals that have happened in the past give a v.good indication of what the a/c can cost.

Otherwise, whether india gets the MRCA or not itself is up for speculation. For all you know the deal could be cancelled since we don't have the "substantive" proof of it having happened as yet.

CM.

Saar, calm down...firstly it's not the future, I believe the offers have already been submitted...all I am suggesting is that the deal for all/any of the MRCA contenders might be sweetened/poisoned considering strategic/political implications and also the size (economies of scale)...so arguments on the price front are unsubstantiated aka speculative based on historical deals of a disparate nature (that didnt involve ToT or offsets)...thank you for your time n patience

[GeorgeWelch]

The French are unhappy with Spectra because of its limited capabilities and the Rafale does not come with OSF anymore.

BS! The french are more than happy with the spectra and the OSF is available to any customer that wants it.

Spectra doesn't have a lot of power, adequate for self-protection but not very good for stand-off

The OSF is not available to anyone because the parts are obsolete and no longer made.

while the EF and Rafale might be closely tied,they hardly have to worry since the shornet blows em both away @ $ 200 mil a pop.

As we've already been over repeatedly, $200 million is a ridiculous and irrelevant number. The USN pays $49 million.

In terms of kinetics, sure the ef-2000 maintains more energy, but the rafale is as good if not better at turn rates. Btw, thats a LOT better than the f-18/16/Gripen anyway, so for the MRCA race, it is already at the top in terms of A2A.

To equate kinetics with A2A performance is naive.

Sure sure! No wonder they have a confirmed AESA for it circa 2014

Only a decade after the Americans! Really cutting-edge.

And if you followed the fight to get it, you would know that the French Air Force had ZERO interest in funding AESA. Industry had to beg and plead and grovel to get so it would be competitive in the export market. Once the line shuts down, that argument disappears and along with it any hope of future upgrades

The fact that they plan to use them for the next 30 odd years should give the IAF plenty of confidence.

Except for the fact that they have already demonstrated a distinct lack of commitment to funding upgrades.

[GeorgeWelch]

In theory, but the MiG-29 has been trying to do that for THIRTY YEARS and still hasn't managed it.At some point you have to acknowledge that Russia will NEVER catch up in avionics because they simply don't have the money.

Hilarious! So all those new avionics on the MiG-29M, SMT, 35; Su-30MKI, Su-35 are just vapor ware eh? Good grief, you'd think only the americans can do anything good at this rate.

Please show me the MiG-29 with avionics equal to the SH or F-16.

It doesn't exist.

No MiG-29 (or -35) has ever been produced with AESA. There are demonstrators, but as EF shows, it is a long path from a demonstrator to a production combat-ready plane. The -35 has to outsource it's jammer to Italy for goodness sake! If that doesn't demonstrate Russia's lack of ability in the area, I don't know what does.

Your argument was that once the avionics of the MiG-29/35 catch up it will be superior.

My point is that it never will catch up. It's already a decade or more behind and by the time it 'catches up', the world will have moved on again.

[avinash.rd]

GeorgeWelch,

Please read the WEAKNESSES section of the below article and the lines which I have marked in bold . Cant trust cunning Americans. If u think EF2000, MIG-35 and Rafale are not getting any proper funding, then in future F-18 might not get any American interest either. Avionics does matter. But the speed, agility and maneuverability of a fighter does matter as much as Avionics. Su30 MKI can beat any fighter in USAF except F-22/35. It is a proven.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/07/mm ... o-bug.html


WEAKNESSES

The Super Hornet is in approximately the same weight class as the Su-30, and is, in every way, a heavy hitter, with all the attendant cross-section and logistics issues. The IAF has expressed apprehensions about the Super Hornet's logistics footprint (and its overall impact on ownership costs), though these have been discussed only internally -- they will be taken up during the foreign leg of the field evaluation tests (FETs). The Super Hornet is a rugged, beast of an airplane no doubt, but there remains a substantial quarter in the IAF which is still hung on the apprehension that it is, ultimately, a maritime strike fighter. "Let's face it. The development of the Super Hornet was with the US Navy in mind. The exports to other country's air forces are simply bonuses. It is a maritime strike fighter, with a maritime role development history behind it. Fielding it as an air force jet is borne from commercial considerations. Both Boeing and Lockheed are trying to maximise profits from the F-18/F-16 production lines before they have to shut shop for the F-35," says one senior IAF pilot, who does not fly anymore. The Indian government has opened its Boeing IDS account with the P-8I Poseidon deal -- the government may be wary of laying it on too thick with one vendor.

[Dmurphy]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... ZYiptc0maQ

Brazil already has closed a deal to buy five submarines from France and there is speculation Lula's government will purchase 36 ultra-modern French fighter jets ahead of rival offers from the United States and Sweden.

Lula declined to say which way that decision would go, but said France's offer to share all the technology that goes into its Rafale fighters made its bid the most attractive.

"France has shown itself to be the most flexible country in terms of transfer of technology," he said.

[govardhanks]

Please read the WEAKNESSES section of the below article and the lines which I have marked in bold . Cant trust cunning Americans. If u think EF2000, MIG-35 and Rafale are not getting any proper funding, then in future F-18 might not get any American interest either. Avionics does matter. But the speed, agility and maneuverability of a fighter does matter as much as Avionics. Su30 MKI can beat any fighter in USAF except F-22/35. It is a proven.

Why do you call them cunning americans?? For what reason?

[avinash.rd]

Why do you call them cunning americans?? For what reason?

They are selling sophisticated weapons to Pak. They are providing billions of dollars every year to them to fight a few hundred terrorists. It doesn't make sens. They might sell F-18s now with the limited sharing of technology but later they may put sanctions on India for a reason which they(like a high school headmaster) think affects peace and stability in Asia. I believe India needs more nuke tests. Defiantly need to test Hydrogen bombs. I believe they have not mastered it. I believe they need 300-400 nukes since we are surrounded by vultures. So India cant trust U.S. with anything. They have a population of about 350 million and they need 10000-15000 nukes, but in India we have over 5000 million youth. To protect ourselves, we might have to plead in front of them.

I believe that U.S. wont help India the way they are helping Israel or South Korea. They are just opportunists. I mean the opportunists in the world.

[govardhanks]

They are selling sophisticated weapons to Pak.

What kind of sophisticated weapons that we must be in fear with. F16/F18/F22?F35 aircraft??? what happens if they supply F18 or F22 or F35?? they can make a better deal with pak for F18 i guess. US can play as they wish..

And tell me does France and Russia not at all sell these kind of weapons. Pay money anyone can get them, PAK has mirages too!!

Everything was good when americans supplied them with weapons. We could match or exceed pakis in quality or quantity. But, nothing seems good when THE CHINA started supplyin them arms. They have unrestricted access to all key tech which china developed against US.

If you recall the MRCA deal was to replace aging Mig's, mirages yada yada.. And it was 126 a/c rite?
Now conditions say we need 200 MRCA's. And the most best in world to replace the aging fleet??? whether it is US or France or Euro a/c doesn't matter they are not going to fill the gap. Which is very sure..

No point discussing which one is better or good. All have merits and demerits. It will be benefit for us if we think of future prospectus both politically and economically. How much tech can we harvest from this deal for ourselves.

[AmitR]

Cant trust cunning Americans.

I am sure you will be up in arms if GW calls you a stupid paki.

[avinash.rd]

I am sure you will be up in arms if GW calls you a stupid paki.

Who is GW?

[avinash.rd]

What kind of sophisticated weapons that we must be in fear with. F16/F18/F22?F35 aircraft??? what happens if they supply F18 or F22 or F35?? they can make a better deal with pak for F18 i guess. US can play as they wish..

And tell me does France and Russia not at all sell these kind of weapons. Pay money anyone can get them, PAK has mirages too!!

Everything was good when americans supplied them with weapons. We could match or exceed pakis in quality or quantity. But, nothing seems good when THE CHINA started supplyin them arms. They have unrestricted access to all key tech which china developed against US.

If you recall the MRCA deal was to replace aging Mig's, mirages yada yada.. And it was 126 a/c rite?
Now conditions say we need 200 MRCA's. And the most best in world to replace the aging fleet??? whether it is US or France or Euro a/c doesn't matter they are not going to fill the gap. Which is very sure..

No point discussing which one is better or good. All have merits and demerits. It will be benefit for us if we think of future prospectus both politically and economically. How much tech can we harvest from this deal for ourselves.

govardhanks,

India is worried about the sanctions that we need to face if we don't act as U.S demands. U.S. wants to run the show all the time with their cranky rules. World cant take it anymore. I am sure that MOD will think million times if they have to buy any U.S. fighters.

[Austin]

Hypothetically speaking , if Mig-35 does get selected and from what we know now about its capability , how will it compare and size up against JF-17 , F-16 ( Paki ) J-10A/B and Su-30MKK in A2G , BVR and WVR combat ? An unbiased analysis by jingos will be nice , Thanks

[govardhanks]

Hypothetically speaking , if Mig-35 does get selected and from what we know now about its capability , how will it compare and size up against JF-17 , F-16 ( Paki ) J-10A/B and Su-30MKK in A2G , BVR and WVR combat ? An unbiased analysis by jingos will be nice , Thanks

Austin sir did russies copy every tech from SU-30 MKI or experience from producing as such to make Mig 35. just a simple question.

[govardhanks]

govardhanks,
India is worried about the sanctions that we need to face if we don't act as U.S demands. U.S. wants to run the show all the time with their cranky rules. World cant take it anymore. I am sure that MOD will think million times if they have to buy any U.S. fighters.

Do you think India will let someone may be Brazil to make tech transfer of Brahmos ( If its completely Indian ) and produce themselves. No country in world will let their tech to go in vain and easy transfer.
Are you worried only about sanctions??
What guarantee you have that you will get all tech with other contenders. Even if we get how many years it will take learn them and bring them into application. No need to think million times if US aircraft is THE best and suitable to us.
I am telling you we are not going to stop just with this MRCA deal. We will proceed more and more with newer and newer tech. MRCA can't just bring wonders to us whether in quantity or quality.

[dorai]

MMRCA a topic in the September issue of DTI.

http://www.zinio.com/reader.jsp?issue=416096376&p=38

If I interpret what they say it means all jets will demonstrate AESA during the trials.

Except for the Eurofighter.

[Singha]

in the above link few pages later you can see details of Caesar, Archer and Doran and see the immense capabilities of the Archer. per a report eval posted
here in head to head contest for sustained fire it ran roughshod over the Atmos system.

we needed it yesterday...should have been in full rate production now and emplaced in various strategic locations like demchok , tawang and Se la pass to give the panda a brutal hiding.

[Philip]

(AWST) At MAKS,Russia unveiled its latest NIIP AESA radar for the PAK-FA,our 5th-gen fighter,after getting permission from the govt.The radar with its fixed 1500 element radar,is ogival in shape,which indicates the shape of the nosecone of the aircraft due to fly in Nov. this year.

The Russian air force has also placed an order for 48 SU-35S which will operate with the PAK-FA when in service.Since development costs were absorbed by the manufacturer,Maj.Gen. Oleg Barmin head of Russian procurement said that if MIG did the same wiht their MIG-35,the Russian air force would buy them too.However MIG have some funding problems which need sorting out and are getting some moolah from the govt.Sukhoi General Designer,Oleg Pogosayan,who heads both companies,suggested that the first JV between both companies could be a UCAV,for both long endurance strike and recce.Ap[art from these programmes a new strategic bomber design to replace the TU-160 Blackjacks and TU-142s called the PAK-DA,is also being developed."20 new weapon systems" are also being developed for the new strike aircraft,with upgraded Adders and Archers unveiled.

I take a considered guess that the RuAF will order a significant batch of MIG-35s during the evaluation process in order to reel in our huge requirement!

[saptarishi]

http://www.zinio.com/reader.jsp?issue=416096376&p=38

its official the production mig-35 will have a 250 km radar with 1064 tr modules

[GeorgeWelch]

with all the attendant cross-section and logistics issues.

1. The SH has a very small RCS.

2. The SH's logistics are the best in the business. Carriers are self-sufficient, operating by themselves for months at a time. The USN is continually investing in efforts to improve its logistics and reduce costs.

Because it has the largest fleet of any of the MRCA contenders, it can justify investments that the others can't. Stuff like the F414EDE to increase FOD resistance and reduce overhaul frequency. Not sexy, but costs that add up.

The USN is very happy with the ease/cost of maintenance of the SH but continues to work to improve it anyways.

No other contender comes with that sort of commitment.

Fielding it as an air force jet is borne from commercial considerations. Both Boeing and Lockheed are trying to maximise profits from the F-18/F-16 production lines before they have to shut shop for the F-35,"

How is that any different from any other vendor? They're all proposing planes for 'commercial considerations.'

The Indian government has opened its Boeing IDS account with the P-8I Poseidon deal -- the government may be wary of laying it on too thick with one vendor.

That's rich, how many Boeing planes will the IAF have? Eight?

How many MiGs does the IAF have? How many Mirages (Dassault) does the IAF have? How many Jaguars (BAC) does the IAF have?

[GeorgeWelch]

They are selling sophisticated weapons to Pak.

You mean like France, Sweden, and Germany?

[VijayKumarSinha]

They are selling sophisticated weapons to Pak.

You mean like France, Sweden, and Germany?

No, he means like the United States of Amreeka which has kept that country alive for the last 6 decades and continues to do so with billions of dollars of economic and military alms. It wasn't those 3 countries that sent the USS Enterprise Carrier group during the 1971 war. Compared to USA those three countries have provided peanuts to Pak. As my old pappy used to say, there is a big difference between USA's kathni and karni.

Genteeelmen, just to make my post more relevant to the topic, allow me to post this excerpt from wiki the passage tells us about the need for maneuverability and the origin of the Red Flag exercised conducted by the USAF:

"The origin of Red Flag was the unacceptable performance of U.S. Air Force pilots in air combat maneuvering (ACM) (air-to-air combat) during the Vietnam War in comparison to previous wars. Air combat over North Vietnam between 1965 and 1973 led to an overall exchange ratio (ratio of enemy aircraft shot down to the number of own aircraft lost to enemy fighters) of 2.2:1 (for a period of time in June and July 1972 during Operation Linebacker the ratio was less than 1:1).

Among the several factors resulting in this disparity was a lack of realistic ACM training. USAF pilots were not versed in the core values and basics of ACM due to the belief that BVR (Beyond Visual Range) engagements and equipment made maneuvering combats obsolete, and nearly all pilots were unpracticed in maneuvering against dissimilar aircraft because of an Air Force emphasis on flying safety."

F-35's pitch: "Maneuverability is irrelevant"
dejavu, anyone?

[Kakkaji]

They are selling sophisticated weapons to Pak.

You mean like France, Sweden, and Germany?

Sorry George, there is an important difference here:

France, Sweden, and Germany may very well sell weapons to Pakistan, but the US (and China) gives weapons to Pakistan for free. Gives tons of weapons (perhaps second only to US military aid to Israel), highly sophisticated ones for the region, to the Terrorist State of Pakistan knowing fully well that the only target for these weapons is India (Please do not insult the forumites' intelligence by parroting USG statements that these weapons are for use against the Taliban ). Under these circumstances, Indians have to be extremely wary of buying any weapons from the USG which is the chief patron of Pakistani military.

I must say that you have made some very cogent arguments on how the SH is the best fit for the MRCA contract. I wish this aircraft was offered by a country other than the one that is the main funding and arming source of Pakistan military.

[GeorgeWelch]

"The origin of Red Flag was the unacceptable performance of U.S. Air Force pilots in air combat maneuvering (ACM) (air-to-air combat) during the Vietnam War in comparison to previous wars. Air combat over North Vietnam between 1965 and 1973 led to an overall exchange ratio (ratio of enemy aircraft shot down to the number of own aircraft lost to enemy fighters) of 2.2:1 (for a period of time in June and July 1972 during Operation Linebacker the ratio was less than 1:1).

Among the several factors resulting in this disparity was a lack of realistic ACM training. USAF pilots were not versed in the core values and basics of ACM due to the belief that BVR (Beyond Visual Range) engagements and equipment made maneuvering combats obsolete, and nearly all pilots were unpracticed in maneuvering against dissimilar aircraft because of an Air Force emphasis on flying safety."

F-35's pitch: "Maneuverability is irrelevant"
dejavu, anyone?

If you note that was over 30 years ago.

Even then they could see where it was heading. However the reality at the time was that the technology was not mature enough.

Now it is.

[VijayKumarSinha]

Sorry George, there is an important difference here.............I must say that you have made some very cogent arguments on how the SH is the best fit for the MRCA contract. I wish this aircraft was offered by a country other than the one that is the main funding and arming source of Pakistan military.

I completely and whole heartedly agree with Kakaji Kahin

This giving away of weapons to Pak is no different from USA's giving away of weapons to Mujahideen's against Soviet's or the Soviets giving away weapons to the North Vietnamese.

USA has to stop hedging its bets and pick its side once and for all. Would it be OK for any country to arm the Taliban? Or Iraq leading up to the Iraq war? Why not? Because they were terrorists and producing weapons of mass destruction(which btw disappeared into thin air)? Gimme a break.

Why is it right for U.S. to arm Pakistan with weapons that would be used against the "terrorists" in the short term and then for ever against India?

I have absolutely nothing against buying 16's or 18's if thats what the IAF thinks is right for it, all that I have said so far and would continue to say is that I believe that it is possible for us to use our $10 billion leverage in convincing which ever country we are going to buy the MMRCA from, that they have to pick sides.

Even then they could see where it was heading. However the reality at the time was that the technology was not mature enough.

Now it is.

If they knew that the future was BVR why did they start Red Flag which is meant to teach US+Nato+other allies manueverability. If the future is BVR why is the manuverability based red flag still continuing? Why did they even start the F-22 program if they new the future was BVR? Why is the world's best dog fighter F-22 still in American arsenal, if it is not needed in this BVR age shouldn't they retire it like SR-71? Also, let me repeat it once again there are only a limited number of BVR weapons that you can carry in one aircraft because they are very big. When they run out, especially against a numerically superior enemy (as they would if we were fighting the Panda) we would have to resort to WVR tactics.

Also, are you sure, that the technology is mature enough now? I mean, back then they were sure enough that it was good enough then thats why they went in there with BVR's and suffered heavy casualities.

GW, its not just for any reason that they say that history repeats itself.