The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

[Austin]

It will be competitive according to Pogosyan

Asked if the Russian fighter could challenge the U.S. Raptor, Pogosyan said he had no reason to doubt that the Sukhoi plane would be competitive.

http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews ... 6120090820

[Venkarl]

Not to interfere/divert the ongoing arg..oops..discussion...wanted to post this pak-fa video which I came across on youtube..apologies if posted already

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07Lgklyni4w

I don't know if its just my eyes....around 1:55 - 1:57..I see few SDRE types....

[negi]

As to why the Russians would follow the US - I do not know. Perhaps because the Russians have figured out how to overcome ALL the shortcomings of the US model? Dunno.

What is this about 'following US' business ? will some one clarify for me ?

US has not disclosed the intricate details of the issues even in the congress such is the IP involved in these programmes . The only passive means to achieve stealth is to keep the RCS small and the fundamentals of microwave and radar engineering remain the same for US as well as the Russians. And as on date the only viable way to achieve low RCS figures has been through use of appropriately shaped airframe/fuselage , serrated edges along the non lifting surfaces, hiding the frontal fan blades,specially treated bubble canopy use of radar absorbent material..yada yda . I don't see what different do folks here expect RU to do ? ah...yes if it is hope that drives jingos here then I am fine with it..for I have not seen anything in open source.

As for active measures to achieve low RCS numbers well I am all ears .

[Austin]

What tripe... what do you mean by the 'USAF's way of fielding stealth', those designs of PAK-FA floating around in the web are very similar to F-22 design by your logic RU is merely copying the USAF way. Americans have a lead in AESA the rest of the world is now catching up so yes rest of the world is committed to harakiri as per your logic.

USAF way of stealth as it thinks is not cost effective , and it ends up as silver bullet leading to cancellation of program on cost effectiveness ground , which means its a failure , more ever American Stealth has hardly faced any integrated IADS or has done any kind of solo mission in such environment , which makes me believe there is tons of hype around it.

American can lead in AESA but others are not far behind , AESA is just one part of matrix not a game winner for any body.

Given the kind of dammage the F-15's and the F-18's inflicted upon the IRAQ'a defenses one can only imagine the kind of capability F-22 brings to the table. At least you should revisit your argument for if actual action and war time performance are to go by no one comes close to Unkil's experience in the modern times.

Yes with tons of support from EW from US and allied nation and the dirty job done by cruise missile the yankees did it well. F-22 will rise the bar

Unkil can experiment with modern warfare and drain their resources both money and personal , its their choice , if they dont learn they will repeat it and I see them repeating it again than learning from it.

This is a typical RU fanboy rant, no facts just blanket statements. The dilapidated state of RU navy and the RuAF is a known fact.As per your logic look at the number of Mig-35,Slava class cruisers and then its entire submarine fleet which lies in shambles (apart from the new Borei class which is yet to field the new Bulava).Heck how many Su-30/35's does RuAf field ? most of the RU military Industrial complex has been reduced to a export oriented business.

I am no RU fanboy , but I know what the great IAF and Indian leadership did when India was attacked with impunity , they just sat there and shit in their pants , while the killers of innocent Indian citizen had their tandav and got their job done.

While India kept begging Unkil , pleading and sending documents all over the world , I guess they just did one yesterday the 6 dossier as they call it , with perhaps MEA burning their midnight lamp writing the 7th one , Great Job India.

While IAF is as usual busy with import spree , perhaps they should not look weak on paper atleast

While the weak and technologically bankrupt and dilapidated state managed to teach Georgia a lesson , going in deep and kicking hard while Unkil and NATO cried foul, and now they are all friends with Georgia as fall guy and Russia exporting more gas to Germany and others.

There is no comparasion between the two platforms ; the US arms lobby has always displayed paranoia when it comes to RU or other weapons systems as it helps their case and convince GOTUS to sanction funds. It is funny that people on forums compare the Su family with the fifth generation AC built ground up for stealth specially when the latter will be backed by superior AWACS and EW platforms.

Let them sanction funds and build superior stuff only to be cancelled later , but they can do little against Russia , except cry foul .

One needs will and dum to fight , rest just compliments.

First talk about our nation , instead of complaining about others.

The numbers of AC produced is by no means an indicator of capability and the maturity of the platform and technology ; and in this case the platform is at least in active service in USAF and 187 is not a small number . By your logic Mirage 2000 is useless aircraft as we don't even operate 100 such aircraft.

Have you looked into the original number US were planning to order ?

Have you look in to MKI number IAF plans to order ?

Unlike the Mig-35 and the Su family the F-22 is not for exports (goes to show the kind of technology and IP involved).And mind you Japan and Israel have shown interest in the Raptor its GOTUS which refuses to export F-22 to anyone.

Yes the day they export it , most AF's fund will end up in purchasing and maintaining it

They did a great service to the world by banning export of F-22 , Thank You USAF.

The war record of the eagle is exemplary infact it has registered kills against the Fulcrums as well as the Foxbat ; silent eagle is a step to target the export market (targeted at the Su-3x family)

Well the time when IAF did more than just talking and sending global RFP which was 71, 65 war they did well with Soviet equipment , as long as we did well with it thats what matters

[NRao]

What is this about 'following US' business ? will some one clarify for me ?

Sure.

It started with 'would like to see air frame', ................ and from there escalated, without any intent, to your query.

Just follow previous posts for more details. But, IMHO, it is not worth it.

US has not disclosed the intricate details of the issues even in the congress such is the IP involved in these programmes . The only passive means to achieve stealth is to keep the RCS small and the fundamentals of microwave and radar engineering remain the same for US as well as the Russians. And as on date the only viable way to achieve low RCS figures has been through use of appropriately shaped airframe/fuselage , serrated edges along the non lifting surfaces, hiding the frontal fan blades,specially treated bubble canopy use of radar absorbent material..yada yda . I don't see what different do folks here expect RU to do ? ah...yes if it is hope that drives jingos here then I am fine with it..for I have not seen anything in open source.

Nobody said anything about any detail/s. Like I said, it was ONLY about 'PAK-FA air frame'. Nothing more than that.

As for active measures to achieve low RCS numbers well I am all ears .

Thanks.

I was only all eyes about the air frame.

______________________________________________________________

IMHO, the Russians will also not reveal - understandably - anything about the PAK-FA.

So, trying to figure out the details of this and that, although not impossible, is not worth it as we post.

[NRao]

Slow week end:

Livefist :: Aug 23, 2009 :: First "True" Impression of FGFA?

Not too much besides "RussiaToday quotes Sukhoi official as saying that the lapel pin is a cheap Chinese fake" (them Chinese are everywhere - on fakes that is).

So PAK-FA goes on.

[NRao]

Translated using Babel fish:

http://www.lenta.ru/news/2009/08/20/fighter/

The Air Force of Russia approached the tests of the second model of the fighter of the fifth generation. On this, as it reports RIA of the news, stated on August 20 on the aerospace salon max -2009 by central board VVS colonel general Alexander [Zelin]. " The second machine, which undergoes ground tests, has already been located here, into [Moskve]" , General emphasized. In this case, as refines " [Interfaks]" , the flight tests of new aircraft it is planned to begin in November 2009. Let us note that about the beginning of the tests of the first model of the Russian fighter of the fifth generation, which conditionally calls PACK [FA] (" Promising aviation complex of the front of [aviatsii]"), earlier officially it did not communicate. However, according to the information of the company of " [Sukhoy]" , that is been the developer of new aircraft, Komsomol'sk-na-Amur aviation production association ([KnAAPO]) approached the production of the first prototypes of this machine at the end 2007. Photographs PACK [FA] also thus far officially were not published, although the images of the possible appearance of this aircraft were placed on the specialized sites. On the exhibition max -2009, which passes during these days in Moscow Zhukovskiy, Russian promising fighter also was not demonstrated. As stated the director of the [konsaltingovoy] company Of infomost Boris [Rybak], answering questions of the readers of " [Lenty].[ru]" apropos conducting present aerospace salon, its showing in the program it is not planned. " Probably, is not ready [eshche]" , it noted.

For BR Russian Section: Can you guys track that down by any chance?

[Neerajsoman]

Cripes, I'm sure I would pursue any leads on that last post, if I could decipher the incomprehensible gibberish.

Reading the original Cyrillic article, though, I think we can safely pigeonhole it into the rumor/speculation category. They have written a largely pompous article in which they tout the "supreme efficiency" of Russian aeronautical complexes in getting things ready on time. Yeah, sure. We in India know about that.

Photographs PACK [FA] also thus far officially were not published, although the images of the possible appearance of this aircraft were placed on the specialized sites

Also, what's translated as "specialized sites" in the Babelfish translation should read "sites with restricted access."

[NRao]

X-Posting:

OK, this is the best I could find:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... h/1111.jpg

The MCA is not quite dead.

The last two paras are important.

this could be a better deal than ever before.

added later:

This from livefist itself:

Regret the incorrect headline (out of my hands, unfortunately!), but here's my piece in today's edition of Mail Today. There's also a paragraph that has somehow been edited out, which contained a detailed list of all the technical differences between the Russian single-seater T-50 and the Indian twin-seat FGFA, differences probably being brought out for the first time. Either way, that paragraph will appear in a follow-on piece that should appear in the paper in a few days. Plus details of the draft work-share proposal between KNAAPO, Irkutsk and HAL-Nashik. All of those edited-out details in the next instalment.

[Austin]

It wont be surprising that MCA as an independent project may be canceled , but technologies and materials developed for it or under development will end up in FGFA project.

Although there will be resistance from R&D organization and people who would like to see MCA as a project for indigenous development , but the end user will make a final call , considering GOI has decided to go all the way to support FGFA and MCA has received no funding yet and end user too has not been much excited by it , as they are more keen to see how Tejas takes shape.

Most likely than not MCA as a project will not see the light of the day not atleast in the current form perhaps a UCAV variant is the way forward to sustain MCA and excite end user interest beyond manned fighter

[Austin]

PAK-FA @ MAKS 09
NRao problem solved

[negi]

AoA.. from now on I am a pukka RU fanboy .

[Austin]

AoA.. from now on I am a pukka RU fanboy .

You forgot to see the MCA besides it , same tech , same avionics , just more cost effective

[NRao]

Austin ji,

My sources tell me that THAT will not be able to start a cold engine at Leh. I argued, but .......................

Anyways, to more serious things:

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-d ... r-unv.html (there is a video in Russian):

translations by two guys:

Greetings from MAKS

here is brief translation, just basics:
it is for 5th and next generation of aircraft (they probably mean 6th by it), diameter 2 meters, thickness 0,5 meters, 10 mio USD a piece, it is AESA, first demonstration unit, technical characteristics still secret, unit should be shown on MAKS, it is functioning unit. No wooden mock up, but real working unit (repeated). No words about range. Contract on demonstration phase to be signed. Its predecessor Irbis radar mentioned. AESA should be able to distribute information (probably fighter-fighter, or with ground control??? doesn´t say). Technologies icorporated understood well enough to enable serial production. I didn´t completely understand talk about processing reflected signal?? (starting at 2:00). Can anybody help?

I have not seen it myself, but it is really good show. Su-35 and 30s were incredible.

(What is "mio USD"? Typo?)

There is more in the comments that should be of interest to us.

[krishnan]

mio USD AKA million USD.

[Igorr]

PAK FA radar prototype strip p0rn video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVpvZoKHT0s&fmt=18

[NRao]

So, .............. "diameter 2 meters" has a rather large fudge factor.

Engine is having some issues.

MCA seems to have been rolled into FGFA.

...... Wait and see.

[Igorr]

BTW, the AESA diameter is 1 meter (not 2).

[NRao]

Igorr,

Thanks. I have to guess that somethings are lost during translation - it happens. Just the way things are.

However, I am really curious to find out how mature is THIS AESA? Just hardware? Some software? Plenty of software? Can rock-n-roll?

Also, any hints on the PAK-FA engine?

[rohiths]

To the best of my knowledge if ruskies have the capability to build a functional AESA radar then they will also have the capability of developing the required software.
Electronics is really advanced these days and even if they have inefficient code it will easily get covered up by the advanced electronics(commercially available will suffice)

[NRao]

To the best of my knowledge if ruskies have the capability to build a functional AESA radar then they will also have the capability of developing the required software.
Electronics is really advanced these days and even if they have inefficient code it will easily get covered up by the advanced electronics(commercially available will suffice)

No one is concerned about "capability". India is also capable.

"suffice", in relation to what?

The US? Or French? Or even perhaps 2005, 2007 Russian?

One has to remember that this event (Russians showing the AESA hardware) represents a similar US even some 17 years ago!!

I am trying to figure out the technical gap. There is one for sure, the question is how large is that gap.

[Raveen]

(commercially available will suffice)

HUH?
What is commercially available?
the source code for the radar?
the AESA radar modules?

I am certain beyond a doubt none of these are commercially available...please enlighten/correct me if you believe I am mistaken

[arunsrinivasan]

Stealthy Sukhois

Talking about stealth in relation to the Sukhoi Su-27 and its extended family, including the new Su-35S, tends to cause people to fall over in fits of mirth. Like Chandler's Moose Malloy, the basic airplane looks about as inconspicuous as a tarantula on a slice of angel food.

But just about six years ago, in late 2003, Defense IQ managed to persuade a team from the Institute of Theoretical and Applied Electromagnetics (ITAE), part of the Russian Academy of Sciences, to present at a conference on stealth in London. I was a presenter - I don't recall any other journalists being present. It sounded as if the paper was going to be some kind of theoretical snorefest and I didn't expect much from it.

I was wrong.

The ITAE researchers produced a highly detailed paper showing how the institute had developed radar cross-section (RCS) prediction software, test facilities for measuring the RCS of real aircraft, and a variety of RCS-reduction materials, all with the Su-27 family as the main application. One illustration showed an RCS test on Bort (fuselage number) 708, one of the Su-27M prototypes that were precursors to the Su-35S:



The invaluable Flateric has recently posted my full account here, together with some artwork from the paper. (Ignore the comments from the f-16.net F-35 fans, who have a hard time with words of more than two syllables.)

According to the paper, the ITAE researchers had found materials that solved the dominant problem in the Sukhoi design: straight-through inlets to the compressor face, with no line-of-sight blockage. Rather than placing an absorber-treated blocker in front of the engine, as on the Super Hornet, ITAE developed a radar absorbent material (RAM) that could be applied to the first-stage compressor blades. The rest of the RAM suite included a metallic treated canopy and sprayed-on RAM coatings on the missiles.

ITAE had also experimented with a plasma screen in front of the radar antenna. Details were few - it was possible that it was contained in some kind of dielectric plastic envelope - but it could be switched on and off in tens of microseconds, so that it could be turned off when the radar needed to operate and turned on at other times. Along with RCS-reduction treatments for the exhaust, it seemed less mature than the rest of the technology.

One year later, the same presenter appeared at IQPC's conference. I asked him if any production aircraft had been modified, and he responded that "about 100" Sukhois had received RCS-reduction mods.

Of course, this by no means will render a Sukhoi invisible - and similar measures have been implemented on many aircraft, including F-16s (Have Glass I and II), the Super Hornet and new European fighters. But when you consider that the most recent versions carry a very serious jamming suite, the complexion of the issue changes.

Jamming and RCS reduction are highly synergistic. The "burn-through" range - the point at which none of my jamming works because the jammer power is less than the scatter from the target - goes down much more quickly with lower RCS than the detection range.

Yes, there are "home-on-jam" technologies that can be applied to missiles - but if the missile's computer has to match its wits with the agility of the jammer, it's a more dicey proposition. New jammers with solid state directional transmitters and digital RF memory (DRFM), which allows you to parrot the incoming signal back in a nanosecond, can give anyone a hard time.

[JaiS]

Fighter Order Rekindles Russian Air Force

Russian air force ambitions stretch far beyond the $2.65-billion Sukhoi fighter order at the MAKS 2009 show. Aspirations include fielding an unmanned combat air vehicle (UCAV) alongside its fifth-generation fighter and developing a next-generation strategic bomber.

The PAK-FA’s radar design was unveiled at the show, with Russian manufacturer NIIP showing a prototype of the active, electronically scanned array (AESA) device. The radar had initially remained covered on the company stand, since government clearance was needed to show the design.

The 1,500-element array is a slight ellipse, likely reflecting the cross section of the PAK-FA nose. While NIIP officials say they have looked at an AESA design in which the antenna face can be moved, the approach being taken with PAK-FA is for a fixed antenna. Test flights of the radar are due to begin in 2010. The first PAK-FA prototype is still expected to fly before year-end. The aircraft design also could use secondary conformal array antennas to provide additional angular coverage.

Having signed the Su-35S deal, Barmin says the air force is now preparing the contract for an associated weapons purchase. This is part of a wider and badly needed effort to refresh the service’s air-launched weapons inventory.

“There are over 20 types [of new weapons] in different stages of development,” says Barmin, and some of them will provide “high precision” and “long range.”

[NRao]

Cool news all around.

[JaiS]

More pictures of NIIP's AESA

And,

The pilot who would fly the first sortie of the PAK-FA prototype, end of this year

[Cain Marko]

Stealthy Sukhois

Thanks Arun, this is some old stuff but well worth a reread. It seems they got the Mig-21's rcs down to 0.2msq and demoed it to the IAF. Explains why the bison was such a pain for the USAF, they surely respect it based on comments from 2 different exercises.

I can now understand why the IAF is so damned confident about the MKIs in BVR! Also makes sense why they are so shy reg. using the BARS during intl exercises. Air dominance is right! Put these RCS measures (RAM+composites) together with the latest details on the BARS upgrade and we know why the Rambha will probly dominate in the future as well.

CM.

[Sanjay M]

Regarding PAK-FA, which seems to compare against US F-22 in capabilities, aren't the Americans canceling their F-22 program anyway, and going for the cheaper F-35? Shouldn't India likewise consider the ROI on PAK-FA? I'd read that Gates said F-35 would itself be the last manned fighter, and that they want to go with UCAV for the future. (I don't know how UCAV would be jam-proof, or if it would have some amazing AI, like the Hollywood movies)

[Dmurphy]

^^ Sanjayji, F-22 program wasn't canceled. It's undue extension of production was. Its effectiveness was never in question. It was the numbers that were being debated upon...and the closure of its production line became a political issue for the US Congress since thousands of jobs would be lost. AFAIK, it was decided that the final numbers must be limited to the initial intent of 187.

And comparing F-35 and F-22 is like comparing MMRCA with Su-30MKI.

Here's something i found on a website posted in 2003:
"The Joint Strike Fighter has a $35 million price tag, while the faster, stealthier Raptor will set the Air Force back $120 million apiece. In combat, though, the two won't be so far apart. Future scenarios envision them working in tandem: The Raptor will knock down the door -- taking out air defenses and radar sites -- and then the Joint Strike Fighter will launch strikes against ground targets."

The costs have escalated to $90 million and $150 million a piece for the F-35 and F-22 respectively. Besides, the F-22 is a twin engined aircraft and has a higher service ceiling (65,000 ft) than the F-35 (60,000 ft) among other things.

As far as the F-35 being the last manned fighter is concerned, the 2 above mentioned aircrafts will still be operable for a long time. Wiki tells me that the F-35 A variant will be replacing the A-10s only in 2028!!!

Please correct me if I'm wrong, Gurus.

[JaiS]

More details on PAK-FA radar and the use of composites.

PICTURE: Russia unveils AESA radar for PAK FA fighter

Tikhomirov says the AESA antenna entered benchtesting in November 2008, and was mated with the radar's other blocks for an initial integration test "this summer". A second example to be produced for an operational prototype of the T-50 will be completed by mid-2010, it adds.

NIIP has not provided any details about the new radar, beyond saying that its antenna contains more than 1,000 solid transmit/receive modules.

Outwardly, the T-50 is believed to resemble the configuration of the US Air Force's Lockheed Martin F-22, and will share design features such as internally carried weapons and supercruise performance. The Russian aircraft will also have an integrated on-board sensor and flight control system which will include several radar antennas to provide a 360° coverage.
Sukhoi will complete five prototypes for initial testing, including two to be dedicated for ground test activities. Initial trials are scheduled for completion in 2011-12, with the company expecting to produce an initial batch of aircraft for operational trials by 2015.

Russia's initial batch of aircraft will be powered by NPO Saturn Item 117 engines, derived from the supplier's AL-31F series. A new engine will be incorporated with later production examples, with this likely to be a design proposed by MMPP Salut and based on the AL-31FM3.

And from Roy's website

Mikhail Pogosyan: Russian Aviation Industry Able to Overcome Lag in Development of Composite Materials

The Russian aviation industry is able to overcome the lag in the development of composite materials (KM), the vice president of the Unified Aircraft Building Corporation (OAK) and general director of the Sukhoy and RSK MiG companies, Mikhail Pogosyan, has told ARMS-TASS.

According to him, development of the Sukhoy family of airplanes and of the Russian aviation industry on a whole "is connected with the broad application of KM in the construction of flight vehicles." The new commercial Russian liners of the An-148, Superjet-100 and Tu-204 type already include up to 10 - 15 percent of KM , and the fifth generation fighter - up to 30 percent.

[Austin]

The prolly mean 30 % by weight and not surface area , compared with tejas figure of ~ 45 % by weight and ~ 90 % by surface area.

The 30 % figure does not look impressive to me

[NRao]

PICTURE: Russia unveils AESA radar for PAK FA fighter

A FAR better picture. Where gains have been made we say so, and where they have not been made we say so too. Cool. I can live with that. This PAK-FA/FGFA HAS to succeed.

Also, FGFA:

India is also seeking its own version of the T-50 under an agreement with Moscow. This is expected to feature some airframe differences and use Indian avionics equipment.

[NRao]

The prolly mean 30 % by weight and not surface area , compared with tejas figure of ~ 45 % by weight and ~ 90 % by surface area.

The 30 % figure does not look impressive to me

The FGFA may have a different make up. I would expect it to.





One key would be the work distribution between RU and IN.

Outwardly, the T-50 is believed to resemble the configuration of the US Air Force's Lockheed Martin F-22

Dang, duler.ru could not get to them before LM, eh?

[Austin]

The FGFA may have a different make up. I would expect it to.

I expect FGFA to be a twin seater version of T-50 ,much like Su-27 and Su-27UB , with MKI type Indian custom built avionic/weapons aka MKI

So the composites wont be much higher that what T-50 is , well the only solace is the f-22 is by weight ~ 24 % composite

We may prefer to call it FGFA for H&D reason and to give it a more indian name /feel , much like we call Yahkont as Brahmos

[NRao]

I expect FGFA to be a twin seater version of T-50 ,much like Su-27 and Su-27UB , with MKI type Indian custom built avionic/weapons aka MKI

Saheb,

It is/was my impression that the MKI is some 2 tons larger than the source it came from. Genes are the same, but some of them are much larger. Which is why (now) I am more interested in the work-share agreement - what is shared and what is not should provide a jhalak?

What says you - as an expert?

[JaiS]

Three high-res images of article 117S which will power the first PAK-FA prototype initially (and which powers the Su-35 now):

Image 1

Image 2

Image 3

Image credits: Vitaly Kuzmin

Also several excellent high resolution pictures of older and newer Russian missiles (and missile seekers) are available here.

[JaiS]

FWIW, the multi-functional integrated electronic complex (radar, communication, ECM ) being developed for the PAK FA is designated as "MIRES".

[Source: Last paragraph of this NIIP document from 2007]

[rkhanna]

Got this off WAFF

PAK-FA to fire dispensable jamming pods in place of chaff

Picture
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attach ... 913921.jpg

[Austin]

What is the T/W ratio of 117S engine , any information on the planned T/W ratio of 5th Gen Engine for the PAK-FA ie AL-41F1 ?

[chiru]

PAK-FA to fire dispensable jamming pods in place of chaff

this looks totally TFTA