Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 20 Aug 2009 23:40

Neela wrote:I recall a post which gave a view from Kalidasa's Meghadootam. Does anyone have a link?

Can't find the original post but is this what you're looking for ? - Clicky

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 23 Aug 2009 03:40

^^ thanks tsriram

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 26 Aug 2009 08:11

http://www.life-enthusiast.com/twilight ... _emoto.htm

Water has a very important message for us. Water is telling us to take a much deeper look at our selves. When we do look at our selves through the mirror of water, the message becomes amazingly, crystal, clear. We know that human life is directly connected to the quality of our water, both within and all around us.

The photographs and information in this article reflect the work of Masaru Emoto, a creative and visionary Japanese researcher Mr. Emoto has published an important book, "The Message from Water" from the findings of his worldwide research

If you have any doubt that your thoughts affect everything in, and around you, the information and photographs that are presented here, taken from the book of his published results, will change your mind and alter your beliefs, profoundly.

BajKhedawal · Post by **BajKhedawal** » 26 Aug 2009 11:44

Acharya wrote:http://www.life-enthusiast.com/twilight ... _emoto.htm
Water has a very important message for us. Water is telling us to take a much deeper look at our selves. When we do look at our selves through the mirror of water, the message becomes amazingly, crystal, clear. We know that human life is directly connected to the quality of our water, both within and all around us........

I agree thoughts affect the quality of water.

Our ancients glorified water by chanting Manthra Pushpam it is still recited at the end of each day in major temples, and at the conclusion of all major prayers, poojas and rituals. It’s given in the Yajurveda, Taittriya Aaranyakam.

Here’s a translation by P. R. Ramachander (link has the original text)

He who understands the flowers of water,
He becomes the possessor of flowers, children and cattle.
Moon is the flower of the water,
He who understands this fact,
He becomes the possessor of flowers, children and cattle.
He who knows the source of water,
Becomes established in himself,

Fire is the source of water,
He who knows this,
Becomes established in himself,
Water is the source of fire,
He who knows this,
Becomes established in himself.
He who knows the source of water,
Becomes established in himself,

Air is the source of water,
He who knows this,
Becomes established in himself,
Water is the source of air,
He who knows this,
Becomes established in himself.
He who knows the source of water,
Becomes established in himself,

Scorching sun is the source of water,
He who knows this,
Becomes established in himself,
Water is the source of scorching sun,
He who knows this,
Becomes established in himself.
He who knows the source of water,
Becomes established in himself,

Moon is the source of water,
He who knows this,
Becomes established in himself,
Water is the source of moon,
He who knows this,
Becomes established in himself.
He who knows the source of water,
Becomes established in himself,

Stars are the source of water,
He who knows this,
Becomes established in himself,
Water is the source of stars,
He who knows this,
Becomes established in himself.
He who knows the source of water,
Becomes established in himself,

Clouds are the source of water,
He who knows this,
Becomes established in himself,
Water is the source of clouds,
He who knows this,
Becomes established in himself.
He who knows the source of water,
Becomes established in himself,

Rainy season is the source of water,
He who knows this,
Becomes established in himself,
Water is the source of rainy season,
He who knows this,
Becomes established in himself.
He who knows that there is a raft is available,
Becomes established in that raft.

{This stanza is included in some versions of mantra Pushpam
Om thad Brahma, Om it is Brahma
Om Thad Vayu. Om it is air
Om Thad Athma Om it is the soul
Om Thad Sathyam Om it is the truth
Om That Sarvam Om it is everything
Om That puror nama Om salutations to that Purusha
Anthascharathi bhootheshu Guhyam Viswa Murthishu
That which is inside all beings secretly is that Universal God
Thvam Yajna You are the fire sacrifice,
Thwam vashatkara You are the the personification of Vedic sacrifice
Thwam Indra You are the Indra
Thvam vayu You are the air
Thvam Rudra You are the Rudra
Vishnus thvam You are the Vishnu
Brahmasthvam You are the Brahma
Thvam prajaipathi You are the Lord of all beings
Om Thadhapa apo jyothi raso amrutham brahma bhur bhuvasuvarom
Om water is light, the essence is the nectar and the concept of Brahma is in all the seven worlds.}

(This last stanza is normally recited by priests while giving back prasada after performing an Archana in all temples)

King of kings, we praise thee,
Who is the giver of all victories,
Who is the fulfiller of all desires,
Please bless me with wealth,
To fulfill all our desires,
Oh, Kubhera, we praise thee,
Salutations to the king of kings.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Aug 2009 21:54

BajKhedawal Thanks for the sloka. Yes we recited it after Ganesh Puja last week.

BajKhedawal · Post by **BajKhedawal** » 27 Aug 2009 05:09

No worries Ramana,

I also have the audio as a 464kb mp3 file, I listen to it almost everydin (i dont mind emailing it to whoever wants it). I don’t remember

where I got the following write-up on Mantrapushpam from, but it’s more detailed for those interested.

Mantra puspam contains the description of Virat purusa. The prajapati exolled him as one who blesses the persons praying him.

Mantra puspam is impregnated with the sum total of Gayatri Hrdayam and Gayatri upanishat. The chanting of Mantra puspam amounts to reciting Gayatri Hrdayam and upanishat.

Mantra puspam is a Vedic extract. It is recited at the end of daily worship in all Hindu temples. It also contains text from Arunam and Maha souram. The Creation of the universe is an utterance of Lord Narayana. Who appeared in the Stages of Creation, sustenance and dissolution. Creation has come up of the Supra Cosmic Lord and it is not his function.

It is said that the Seven Centres, Muladhara cakra at the tip of the Sacral region at the back, the Svadhistana located, opposite to spleen along the Spinal cord and the third Manipura Cakra at the navel region and the fourth Anahata at the heart Centre and the fifth Visuddha at the throat region and the sixth Ajna Cakra between the eyebrows, the seventh Sahasrara at the head centre got their Vibrations from the Seven planets and there is turn from the Saptarsimandala.

These mystic sounds of the mantra when properly meditated unlock the Seven Cosmic Centres (Nodes) and establish direct link with Narayana.

The sound must be the beginning of creation. There must be germsounds like germplasm. These are eternal words out of which the whole universe has been produced.

Nara means water and also man. The cosmic water can dissolve everything in the Creation, the mind, buddhi, intelligence and even soul. Nature is a product of God and Hence Lord is indestructable. The Lord is the back bone of cosmos. The Lord is eternal and exists at all times. He may appear in a form like a wave of the ocean.

The meditation of Soul is a constant process and not fixed to any particular times. The Lord is meditated upon as Supreme as Knowledge. Belongs to mind and wisdom to Soul.

All qualities and Nature belongs to God. The abode of Narayana is in the heart in the form of an inverted lotus bud. The beginning of Creation is the unfoldment of lotus bud.

The Cosmic energy is like the germinating Core of a rice seed. The principle of procreation called Adithi is the mother principle of Cosmos.

The Solar Sun feeds from the Cosmic energy and gives inturn Solar energy. (Suparna Sukta in Veda) This energy is given to mature unto the earth in the form of Cloud. The Sun’s rays evaporates the Waters through radiation and converts them into potential energy. It is otherwise known as magnetic energy. The Clouds are charged with electrical energy for the procreation.

The Sun is a bundle of flames responsible for combustion. The energy is directly drawn from space and Converted into light energy by the Centre of the Sun globe which is the Cosmic Consiousness otherwise known as Supreme Consciousness “Narayana”.

Sun is a body of reflection and he transmits the same again to Moon and other planets.

The earth receives the Solar light and gives the same energy to all the living beings on the earthly hemisphere. Narayana the source of Waters presides over the spiritual water of experience.

Fire is the origin of water which in turn is the source of fire. Watervapour condensed produces heat. The space is filled with actual light called (Samudra) possessing fine electrical energy and from this fire is produced.

Contemplation upon the source of thought and mind bestows eternal happiness.

Air is the source of water which in turn becomes the source of water. Air is nothing but pulsation of Space. The energies of space becomes molecules of air. The breath and consciousness of the individual is to merge into the Universal consciousness which is nothing but eternal happiness.

Water is the source of heat which is responsible for creation. Heat is converted into light which in turn becomes the Sun’s magnetic field i.e. life’s energy. One must meditate on his life’s energy, the source of breath. The two palms contains two magnetic energy centres when come in contact with water gets stimulated and correct the health disorders. (Dr. P.J. Mohan Rao).

The moon light is a reflector of the Sunlight in a pleasant form as does the water.

The Constellations in the sky are the source of creation which inturn are the waters of space. The biological and animal kingdoms owe their existance to the constellations.

Water is produced on earth due to the rotation of earth around the Sun, and rains due to its rotation in the season. Respiration is the product of these waters.

“OM” is the node of cosmic mystic sound, the pulsation of creation and activity. OM is real and all else is unreal. The vibrations of ‘OM’ comes down and covers the body and soul.

Kubera serves Lord Siva who is Kameswara, the fulfiller of all desires. The breadth of Gods the centripetal and contrifugal forces and Aswins in the exhalation and inhalation are Apana and prana. Vibration is the strength of Visnu, which emanates from an eternal source.

Lord Narayana is the pulsator of water, the light, the supreme consciousness outside and inside, the energy the intelligence the source of eternal happiness, creative intelligence and Vaisravana in Visnu.

It is stated that there are Seven life giving breath airs in the body. They are Avaham, Pravaham, Nivaham, Varaham, Udvaham, Samvaham, parihavam. Among them parihavam also known as Mareeci is said to safeguard Atma and Paramatma. If this particular Vayu (air) is not circulated, the Atma and Paramatma will disappear from the body. It is acclaimed as more minutest than prana Vayu (oxygen) which we breathe in. Hence if this parivaham vayu (air) is discovered and allow it to circulate in the body prana will not desert us and death is averted.

Thus Mantra puspam has a unique place in the worship of god who is responsible for our birth and death and the fulfiller of all our desires, destinies and liberation.

BajKhedawal · Post by **BajKhedawal** » 30 Aug 2009 09:11

viv wrote:I recall a post which gave a view from Kalidasa's Meghadootam. Does anyone have a link?

This might interest you:

Was there another Dwarka north of Kashmir? Or is Panini putting Sri Krishna’s Dwarka north of Kashmir in his Astadhyayi? (8.36MB)

Dwarka in Gujarat during Mahabharat times (1.94MB)

Vedic India and as reveled in Ramayan (1.65MB)

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 30 Aug 2009 16:06

Lord Krishna existed. School texts are wrong'

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Sep 2009 03:28

Can some one write short paras on the philosophy of the bhakti saints and the reform movements? And anyone who understands Sankara, Ramanuja and Madhava please write a short description of their ideas. Its tough to tell a newbie to read a book.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 02 Sep 2009 10:37

ramana Can some one write short paras on the philosophy of the bhakti saints and the reform movements? And anyone who understands Sankara, Ramanuja and Madhava please write a short description of their ideas. Its tough to tell a newbie to read a book.

Manasavi has given a general history, I know this has been addressed before. But do you want a 4 or 5 liner on the Philosopy of Vaishnavas?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Sep 2009 11:00

Anything helps. Later we can print these as booklets to handout.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 02 Sep 2009 13:48

Vaishnava philosopy at its simpliest

Laxmi and Narayana (paramatma, Prahabramhan) are the source of everything.

Thier Abode is Sri Vaikuntam which is the ultimate destination of Souls which is outside the material Universe. There is no concept of time in the Vaikuntam, Time is a creation for the material Universe.

Hence Narayana is Paramatma and everyone else is a Jivatma, it is natural for the Jivatma to serve the Paratma. Vaikuntam is the ultimate destination of all souls. i.e permenant Heaven. Paratma is found in every living being and every atom.

Human life is an opportunity to worship the lord perform Bhakti yoga, surrender on to a Vaihnava guru and if the Lord so Wishes, attain Moksham and go to Vaikuntam. The thought that one can be independant from the Lord is what has made the soul fall into a material universe. There are many material universes.

Our particular Material universe is up made of 14 planetary systems and 21 Hells. Chaturmuka Brahma's Satyaloka at the top and Bhu lokha in the middle. Temporary Heavens like Indra loka are considered as part of upper planetary systems. Brahma lives of 100 years of his time which is about 411 trillon years by human time.

Some Sampradayams have Radha and Krishna as the original Laxmi and Narayana

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 02 Sep 2009 17:53

Aditya_V wrote:
brihaspati I think, at least in the Vaishnava tradition - supreme being can take human or animal form or manifest in such forms. This is consistent with the basic Vedic formulation of the all-pervading Brahma.

Advaita traditions follow the All prevading Brahman is not a specific deity but Sunyam in Tamil or Brahmajyothi-

In Advaitic tradition,neither sunyam nor Brahmajyothi is used.The exact terminology would be Saguna Brahman(Iswara or Narayana).Lord Narasimha is worshipped by the Jnanis as the Brahman manifested.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 02 Sep 2009 18:10

Here Iswara does not mean Lord Shiva nor does Narayana mean the Supreme Form reclining in the Kshirasagara.These respledent forms are the manifestation of the Saguna Brahman.

For all practical purposes,to the devotee,this Supreme Form is Brahman itself.It is the manifestation of Iswara to bless His devotess.But the Advaitic teachers emphasise that there is no limitation on the Lords forms and He cannot be limited even by such Divine manifestations.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 02 Sep 2009 20:36

krishnapremi Aditya_V wrote:
Quote:
brihaspati I think, at least in the Vaishnava tradition - supreme being can take human or animal form or manifest in such forms. This is consistent with the basic Vedic formulation of the all-pervading Brahma.

Advaita traditions follow the All prevading Brahman is not a specific deity but Sunyam in Tamil or Brahmajyothi-

In Advaitic tradition,neither sunyam nor Brahmajyothi is used.The exact terminology would be Saguna Brahman(Iswara or Narayana).Lord Narasimha is worshipped by the Jnanis as the Brahman manifested.

Ok Sorry, since I dont follow Advaita I will stop commenting on my knowledge of Advaita beliefs.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 04 Sep 2009 15:22

Manasvi as SriVaishnava, I can definately tell even though the term "Vishishadvaita" is used to term Ramanuja's teaching, it definately states that Jivas- Jivatma is different from Paramatma but cannot survive induvidually without Paramatma i.e Sriman Narayana. 'Vishishadvaita' specifically states that the path Moksham is through Bhakti which includes surrendering to a Vaishnava Guru

So difference between the various Vaishava schools is minimal.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Sep 2009 22:32

Our Brihaspatiji is a latter day Madhava!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 05 Sep 2009 02:05

uncanny - two I had confessed myself, but the third I never mentioned! I really did not know about his personal life, but only his work. Apart from that he was a giant, and I am a lilliput compared to him.

But philosophically really still torn between his and Shankara's version. Cannot deny or negate either! Thats probably the height of confusion. Any modern debates that I can access?

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 07 Sep 2009 04:23

i am scared to give you references. s. radhakhrishnan's text. but he is unsympathetic to it. perhaps there is something in the late BNK Sharma's works. many modern theorists i know swear by him. there are others but they will not be accessible to you since they are in kannada. older texts of course vyasatheertha, vadiraja etc have some info. apparently, vyasatheertha used to mentor advaitin students!!

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 07 Sep 2009 04:53

brihaspati wrote:uncanny - two I had confessed myself, but the third I never mentioned! I really did not know about his personal life, but only his work. Apart from that he was a giant, and I am a lilliput compared to him.

But philosophically really still torn between his and Shankara's version. Cannot deny or negate either! Thats probably the height of confusion. Any modern debates that I can access?

Now I must learn more about Madhvacharya

In the past one year I came across few speeches by Swami Sundara Chaitanyananda (in Telugu) and I found the Shankara's Advaita philosophy most logical.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Sep 2009 05:07

Can you please (both of you) put up any translation of the essential arguments in the modern ones? I have gine through the classical versions. My brain says Shankara, and heart says Madhava. But Shankara is important for me to justify my inversion of "purusha shukta" in a form that the "preisthood" and "by-birth-exclusivists" cannot deny. On the other hand, I alway have this inner feeling that a tide of "bhaava" is the way forward to sweep in everyone and sweep out all the unwanted items. I think I understand Sri Chaitanya's change of "heart". Question - which one for Bharat!

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 07 Sep 2009 05:25

what do you mean modern, B?

whatever i followed was to know the basics. so my references might not be what satisfies you. i just know enough to know that there is more.

from what i know, to decide, to negate one and pick another you have to go through a journey. there is academic part of it, which is the relatively easily part. but then these denials are more than that and there is an angeekara part of it, which is more difficult you have live through it and the actual denial comes somewhere in this part.

so confusion is normal and sort of healthy although frustrating.

so when i say i stopped being a dvaita follower and now follow advaita, it is just a statement of my taste, how many ever texts i might have read. i mean, i am not following dvaita that is certain. but to claim i am an advaitin is a big unsubstantiated statement to make.

one last thing. a basic symptom is are you happy following it? this is ofcourse different from doing whatever makes you happy.

i stopped a couple of years ago. bcoz at one point i realized sewages and drains of life are more important. but want to revisit after age hopefully induces some viveka, the danger is i might not be humble enough for that.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 07 Sep 2009 05:29

brihaspati wrote:Can you please (both of you) put up any translation of the essential arguments in the modern ones? I have gine through the classical versions. My brain says Shankara, and heart says Madhava. But Shankara is important for me to justify my inversion of "purusha shukta" in a form that the "preisthood" and "by-birth-exclusivists" cannot deny. On the other hand, I alway have this inner feeling that a tide of "bhaava" is the way forward to sweep in everyone and sweep out all the unwanted items. I think I understand Sri Chaitanya's change of "heart". Question - which one for Bharat!

exactly. again, i too was repulsed by the inversion of purusha sukta problem.

i am not making this up. i used to really alone those days and this caused me lot of grief.
i like this term inversion, i was subjecting myself to the effects of a more harsher and uncharitable word. so much grief it caused.

ok ok. i am back to my sewages, you are a pied piper. you will drag me to places where i dont want to go.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 07 Sep 2009 05:55

B-ji,

I listened to a speech on "Kathopanishad" and I got attracted to the whole reasoning behind Advaita. The prologue I posted at the beginning of this thread is a loose translation of the foreword from that speech.

In this speech Swami Sundara Chaitanyananda explains this Upanishad and in the process he explained various religions and where they end in the journey of Atma-sakshatkara, as Yama-deva explains the Atma tatva to Nachiketa.

I started translating this Upanishad for a family friend, and I am doing it very slowly as I didn’t want to mistranslate. I am trying to do some “Antahkarana Suddhi” as I work forward

I am visiting India this year and will look for a English version of his book. If I find it, it will be my gift to you.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 07 Sep 2009 05:56

another point is, available literature is heavily skewed in favour of advaitic thought. so a naive seeker will be swamped by its volume and thus doomed. unless i have internal questions and curiosities about fundamental questions(which are the real thingie), i will never know of the limitations of advaitic thought. without these questions i am only being swayed by literature. this i realized very late when i started reading more and more and when my aunt started asking me very uncomfortable questions. i realized all my knowledge was just good enough to impress others and didn't mean anything personally. she actually destroyed me. when in a mood for it, i still use it to impress novices, especially young women, which the SHQ has caught on to. so even those days are numbered.

it now occurs to me that the best way for dull people like me is to either stick to our traditions, or be agnostic about schools and theories and study all sorts of things. that way atleast, i can know what the important and real questions are, think a bit, work on the problem and then go back to see what answers others are giving. ofcourse the questions are still borrowed but it is better than reading only answers.

B. the above is not addressed to you at all, i know you know about all this. the range of questions you ask in brf alone is sufficient to make me say that. but i must say, in my case, part of my head is with dvaita but heart is with advaita.

this is just a general summary of the viveka i've gathered. helps me personally to think about it and restate it, every once in a while. again just showing off in a public forum.

-----
the point is the differences between the various schools are real and it is not true to say vaishnava schools are all very same. the differences arise from basic questions. and the answers have implications. even answers to mundane questions about the importance of taratamya have serious implications.

importance of madhvacharya and others from his stable(said respectfully and with the iconography of hayagreeva in mind) is that they perturbed the statis that had set in advaitic thought and forced them to answer some of the questions that they had avoided asking themselves and forced them to rethink their assumptions. the classic example being that story of mistaking a rope for a snake. being the new theory in town, the madhvas were very vocal and forceful about their doubts and employed all sorts of techniques including sarcasm to nudge advaita followers from their comfort zones. i think for a brief moment people got so excited by madhavacharya's line of thinking, that some of the questions just came out of the sheer momentum of the period. (krishnapremi is going to come and rip me apart for saying this aloud)

in my personal opinion, some of the questions raised were never convincingly answered by advaitins or perhaps i should say more forcefully rebutted by dvaitins than answered by advaitins. infact looking at some of the responses, advaitins never perhaps even bothered to answer. like that snake and rope conundrum. in the debates, the advaita camp comes off like congress party, which prevails mostly because of historic momentum and has great appeal to common people. socio-geo-politics is what lets advaita prevail. if they had the might, the madhvas would have prolly taken these questions theoreticians of TN, AP and KE. Up in the hills sringeri just went into a shell and mostly acted as if all this doesnot matter at all. There is lot of symbolism to the fact that sringeri is safely ensconced on the hills, udupi is below. They are neighbours and closer to each other(less than 100 kms) than they are to basava kalyana, for example, but the geography changes rapidly in that place.

B, try contacting one Mr. Shrisha Rao of http://dvaita.org/. he might be able to help you. i have not corresponded with him in a while. He prolly can answer your queries from a position of knowledge or atleast guide to to people who will. there is list/digest on that site. from where you can prolly pick other people.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Sep 2009 07:38

RamaY-ji,
many thanks for your pointers! Thanks in advance if you manage to get the book! "Antakarana suddhi" - is a most difficult and lifelong project.
"If the inside of the heart/
is a dormant seething volcano/
how can ever any rain quench it?"

Shaardula-ji,

I understand (I hope) the fundamental and formal differences. From my logical view I accept Shankar's position. But where the dvaita position comes in, is lesser than my personal quest - but more from my major concern about unification of my people. The humility and deference that has become inherent spiritually makes it difficult to draw out the advaita from within the "dvaita" in the "commons"("prakriti" - I think you will understand the "human" sense in Sanskrit usage).

Where, "naam" comes in is something that has always been the parallel theme for me - the immense indescribable beauty of all life and inanimate objects, and the music that runs through it all like a silent murmur of an eternal river. Yes in the advaita framework, we have an explanation of this "harsha/ananda", but the churning of senses is something that seems to overflow the dry logic. I have seen that exquisite love in the eyes of a crying calf of a water buffalo, or a lost puppy, a blue cormorant, in the swaying tops of blue pine, on glaciers on a clear full moon night, in white water rapids, even in the lone boulder waiting for me to climb and talk to it - something always told me from earliest childhood memories that they all had something in common and that they were trying to talk. I have been told that I responded to classical ragas from the age of three or four months and I kept rhythm with my legs while on my back and cry if the player was switched off.

Both Indian classical and some western classical like that of Haydn, Chopin, Schubert and Beethoven would and still holds me motionless - as I come close to that childhood sense of indescribable "ananda".

It is this strange intense mystical flow of life from rocky boulders and snows on mountains to SHQ that is heightened by tunes and music that throws me off balance from Shankara from time to time. My logical mind has no explanation for this flow. This where I felt I identified with what Madhava had to say. But more so, my travels among the "commons", sharing their life from time to time, made me inclined to understand the force of "dvaita" in what moves them. Music moves us all - where I and a Ustad and a Pundit all move along the same "chalan" of a raaga, where the Hudood of Sharia does not exist, the rules of "pollution" do not work.

This is where I feel the pull of Madhava and Chaitanya. To swamp it all through the chant and and the "naama" - the great flood that clears the Augean stables, without waiting for the cold hard logic of Shankara to come to all through gnana.

How could we sink to the point where, in spite of Shankara, and Madhava or Chaitanya, we still do not identify with our people who starve to death, or take their own lives because they can no longer feed their children or pay their debts, where producers whose only dream is of of a full plate for their children commit suicide - not recognize how they are also "amritasya putraa" - part of the same divine?

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 07 Sep 2009 07:54

actually with the general flavour of what you wrote madhva proper and related theorists would find offense with and be greatly insulted, especially since you are arriving at this position from knowledge. this is one of the the things, madhva theorists are very serious and take great pride in their epistemology and argue that theirs is an objective position, at which you arrive despite your subjective experiences. (though ofcourse they will not dismiss any experience since empiricism is very important/real for them and not just a sensation of maaya.) according to their self assessment, bhakti is an outcome of madhva thinking and not the other way around. but i know the core of your question, because my aunt asked me this. loosely, how can god and man be one. she was repulsed by this. the word she is used was asahya - intolerable, unbearable vulgarity of the notion. and your real question, "which for bharat" is the more important question.

for example, if you go to udupi, and can bear with the taratamya and explain your situation, they will appreciate it and offer an explain in great detail about why it is so. actually, from experience, i can tell you that only udupi would encourage your greater concerns. sringeri you will not find audience in. sringeri you go for only personal spiritual questions.

side note: when the VHP was formed, Jayachamarajendra Wodeyar was one of the founding members (the Wodeyar ceremonies were officiated in vaishnava tradition which i think is a departure from traditions in Vijayanagara). Today the seer of Pejawara, Udupi is an important member of it.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Sep 2009 08:17

Maybe someday I will resolve the problem within myself. But simply stated, it is my "prem" that makes me seek "gnana", (for what makes you question? what is the source of that prompting and urging?) and then "gnana" makes me "prem" more.

Advaita is important - and is fundamentally sound. I can live with it although not entirely satisfied. But more importantly, I can use it for the most important task at hand - clearance of the Augean stables. Madhava, on the other hand, represents my own dilemmas very much. Reason I wrote "uncanny". But Madhava is important too - and will be more significant at a later stage. I will be what my people needs me to be if they need me or if they share my need for them. My personal quest can wait another lifetime.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 07 Sep 2009 08:23

agree completely. though i state it differently to my self, mainly because i am not as confident as you. but every single member here is driven by the same impulse and you articulate it better than most. in any case, i too assume that this life is to know. to be, there is always the next life.

ok i am done with this thread, which i carefully avoided for so many days.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Sep 2009 08:30

oh - do come back! yatri's need to share their agony and ecstasy - agony decreases and ecstasy increases when shared!

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 07 Sep 2009 08:32

B, personally, given all that you have been saying, i wonder why you didnot end up at the altar of ashtavakra? but ofcourse, you have also said you are not interested in personal thingie. ashtavakra is totally useless as a politics of spirituality aka religion. i agree. we have a whole bunch of people in the north of the state who are ashtavakra followers. i think manasvi here is one of them from across the border, not sure.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Sep 2009 08:42

Do I come across as a spiritual opportunist?

Maybe I didnt land up on that altar, because I felt overwhelming "prem" - seen too much suffering and loss of innocence. Each torture, each cut, each deprivation, each humiliation, was like as if it was personally suffered. It was that prem that prevented me from commiting to personal salvation only. If the "param" took my shape in "maya" shouldnt "it" be agonizing for what "it" saw being suffered on "itself" in other shapes?

Sridhar K · Post by **Sridhar K** » 07 Sep 2009 08:48

BJi,

Whats your take on Sridhar Swamin (Chaitanya's contemporary and friend) who was an advaitin, but was a strong advocate of Bhakthi Marga/Bhava?

You may also wish to look at Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswathi of Kanchi Mutt's Devaitin Kural (compilations of his speeches throughout his time at the mutt, available in kamakoti.org). He was from the advaita school, but his speeches and work were very focussed on the Bakthi. He does talk about Prema for all jeeva rashi and Iswara as the epitome of that Prem .

Added later: There is a thread to discuss these things in India Forum. The thread is now dormant.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 07 Sep 2009 09:00

Sridhar K wrote:. He does talk about Prema for all jeeva rashi and Iswara as the epitome of that Prem .

.

Me?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Sep 2009 09:01

Sridhar K-ji,
reading up - using my last month of summer break before going back to "mule beating" when uni opens. Thanks for reminding me! Sridhar Swamin's work did strike a bell when I first came across it - but it was at the ripe old age of 15. During my "singing" and dol-jatra-dancing-singing days. I should read it back. I will get Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswathi's works.

But, I think I am coming more and more towards the "hare murare/madhu kaitavare" form of "Hari" - unadulterated Krishna who causes and winds up the Bharata war. Bhakti and prem to bring people closer to kurukshetra so that the personal quest for "param" can be taken up in earnest aftewards - after paying the debt of taking birth.

I know it sounds ominous - using "prem" to justify "hingsha", but should we not explore that side of the question?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Sep 2009 09:24

All personal spiritual quest should be submerged in the quest for that minimum of happiness for all of "param's" creation/pieces. This is what I am looking for in the "masters". They are not saying it, as yet - at least not in the way a Shankara or a Madhava (or Basava for that matter) or Sri Chaitanya said it. Not in the way Krishna said it. This is my pain and agony. Where is the "prem" - that intense love for all of the param's parts that can harden a Krishna into preparing Arjuna for battle?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 07 Sep 2009 09:26

"Antakarana suddhi" - is a most difficult and lifelong project.
"If the inside of the heart/
is a dormant seething volcano/
how can ever any rain quench it?"

No doubt about it B-ji. Like Malaya Raja prayed in "Malayaraja stuti"

"Sasibhrutiva seetalatve tvam, Siva-swabhava eva tvam, deva..." (forgot the 2nd line)

Malaya raja comes to pray Shiva on a full-moon day, and even before he could say "Shiva", he gets overwhelmed by his bhakti, that

"Lord Shiva, your siva-swabhava (Mangala=auspecious, swabhava) is like the moon-light. How much sinned I must be for not feeling you, similar to the one who is standing in the moonlight and not able to feel it." Implying that none can exist without that Shiva (god-consciousness), yet one couldn't feel it already.

The Advaita principle states that there are no two truths (param = brahmana). However until one realizes that equation, I=Atman=Param, completely, there is no alternative but Bhakti.

So I do not see any contradiction between Advaita and Bhakti till one reaches self-realization. At that point the Sat-Guru must show the jnana-marga (here Bhakti marga ends) to know Atman=Param. Once done, both guru and sishya become param-jyothis.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 07 Sep 2009 20:47

One must not forget Nostradamus. His predictions have been coming true as time rolls by.

Without quoting profusely from his Quatrains, the general convergence of predictions by Indian Astrologers, saints and mystics do match the words of Nostradamus wherein it relates to the rise of India as a super power, ruled by a man from the south of India, who, with knowledge and power, manages to pacify the communists, and punish the pseudo religious fanatics.

I just quote one Quatrain, Q75 Century X:

Long awaited he will never return
In Europe, he will appear in Asia
One of the league issued from the great Hermes,
And he will grow over all the Kings of the East.

India will shine, it is not yet fully shining.........what's the delay?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Sep 2009 21:11

er..
the quatrains do not mention anything about "South of India". The only two points which are used to identify with India - come from a translation that reads approximately as the man coming "not" from Europe but who "visits" France or crosses "Alps", and that he comes from "identity" that has the name of an ocean (this has been interpreted to be Indian Ocean->Hindu Mahasagar->Hindu) - and he makes Thursday his "holy day" (should change my nom-de-BRF

)- only faith known in the modern times to be explicitly linked are Hindus. But I think some other faiths also consider Thursday as auspicious for certain purposes - including the Judaic one. Translations of "Blue turbaned" one has been interpreted to mean "water on three sides" and hence India, and even MMS. But I don't see a south Indian leader donning "blue turbans" in the near or distant future. Correct me if I am mistaken.

As for "kalki" aspects, if you are hinting about them, I think there are already quite a few kalki claimants - even a female kalki. No offence meant to any believer, apologies if offended. I have serious problems with the Kalki narratives as claimed. First his birth in a supposed "Brahmin" family - how many of the other of the nine previous avatars born of brahmin priesthood? There are other issues. But the current claims appear to be geared towards gaining spiritual authority and following - while Kalki's basic thrust seems to be making war, literally. He also marries twice and nothing is written that he marries the second time after the first one dies - so polygamy is not ruled out- does not fit in with current claimants as well as unlikely to be allowed socially among "Hindus" in the near future.

If the debate is desired, may be we should transfer that particular line into Indian interests thread or "texts/kathas" thread in GDF?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 07 Sep 2009 22:47

B-ji,

Please go to this page and let me know which books you would be interested in. I will be honored gift them to you. You can drop an email to me.

http://www.sundarachaitanyam.org/pages/ ... a755d89593