MRCA News and Discussion

johnny_m · Post by **johnny_m** » 07 Sep 2009 21:42

Rafale just won the Brazil FX-2 tender. It should increase its chances in the MRCA

hulaku · Post by **hulaku** » 07 Sep 2009 21:42

Johnny beat me to it but still

Brazil choose the Rafael

Brazil, France in advanced talks on fighter jet deal: Lula

Sun Sep 6, 2:44 PM
PARIS (AFP) - Talks between Brazil and France on a major deal to buy Rafale combat jets are at a "very advanced" stage and headed toward agreement, Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva said Sunday.
Made by France's Dassault Systems, the Rafale fighter is in competition with the Swedish-made Gripen and Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet for a contract worth four billion dollars (2.8 billion euros) to supply Brazil with 36 fighter aircraft.
Lula told RFI radio and TV5Monde that negotiations were showing progress, as French President Nicolas Sarkozy traveled to Brasilia for a two-day state visit starting Monday.
"What I can say is that our discussions are at a very advanced stages and I think that we will reach a good understanding with France," said the Brazilian president.
"The talks with President Sarkozy are progressing very rapidly. We are on the right course, the right path. We have a relationship of trust," he added.
If France's Dassault does sell its Rafales to Brazil, it would be the first time the jets have been sold abroad.
Analysts said France's offer to give Brazil the technology behind the multi-role combat aircraft as part of the sale of 36 planes could give it the edge over the rival bids from the United States and Sweden.
France is also holding talks with the United Arab Emirates for the sale of 60 Rafale fighters jets in a bigger deal that could be worth between six and eight billion euros.

http://ca.news.finance.yahoo.com/pri...deal-lula.html

Brazilian media reports Lula is presently together with Sarkozy confirming the deal

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 07 Sep 2009 22:13

It has everything to do with nuke sub and scorpene deal. It will not help Rafale in India at the least. With chinkis itching to get a thrashing I am willing to bet GOI will shore up support from Ru (more MKI) and US (F-18 probably).

prabir · Post by **prabir** » 07 Sep 2009 22:30

Yes, this makes sense. Buy the aircraft with a "political package" that takes care of the chinese. And for that matter, split the deal by buying MIG 35 from Russia and F-18 from US.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 07 Sep 2009 22:36

Brazil is not American ally so F-18 could not be pushed down Brazil's throat. Gripen was not serving Brazil's political purpose either. French/Brazil cooperation was in making for long time and I think France will be very much interested in developing American backyard to project its power in Latin America. I think Rafale is just a start on much wider franco-brazilian cooperation.
India is different ball-game. India's strategic and security interests are no way similar to Brazil.

soumik · Post by **soumik** » 07 Sep 2009 22:38

Wasn't there some news a while back about India wanting to upgrade the Su-30's to SU-35 specs(or am i just dreaming that up). if i am right do we know what happened to that.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 08 Sep 2009 00:04

soumik wrote:Wasn't there some news a while back about India wanting to upgrade the Su-30's to SU-35 specs(or am i just dreaming that up). if i am right do we know what happened to that.

Soumik, there's a separate Su-30 thread for relevant discussions

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 48#p734348

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 08 Sep 2009 05:30

johnny_m wrote:Rafale just won the Brazil FX-2 tender. It should increase its chances in the MRCA

If true this would definately increase chances of Rafale in MRCA contest. If they can get UAE deal before MRCA it would certainly give them confidence and means to offer India a more competitive deal. Good luck Rafale!

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 08 Sep 2009 05:52

Katare wrote:
johnny_m wrote:Rafale just won the Brazil FX-2 tender. It should increase its chances in the MRCA
If true this would definately increase chances of Rafale in MRCA contest. If they can get UAE deal before MRCA it would certainly give them confidence and means to offer India a more competitive deal. Good luck Rafale!

I would argue, this will force unkil to be even more forceful with F-18 sales. If the F-18 loses 2 major competitions (India, Brazil), that may cook the F-18's goose quite well.

johnny_m · Post by **johnny_m** » 08 Sep 2009 07:35

The F/A 18 E/F don't have to win any competitions it is sustained by the USN. The 24 orders for the RAAF did not hurt either. So losing the competition will not be as bad as to others. If you look at it that way I would say the Swedes would be the desperate ones with the Gripen NG. With Brazil gone India represents their last chance for a big order. (They may however win small orders here and there, but that may not necessarily make the NG program sustainable).

I was thinking if India choose the F/A 18 E/F as the MRCA it will be operational for 40 years well beyond the retirement date of the USN F/A18 E/F and the RAAF Super Hornets. The RAAF ones will be replaced by the F 35 by 2025-30 and would not be as badly used (no carrier landings) as the USN ones. These would make good second-hand buys to sustain our fleet. Especially if we are the only operator left (they don't want it and don't have anyone else to sell it to).

IF we buy the F-16 expect the Lockheed dudes to knock the IAF doors with upgrade to F-35 offers in 20-25 years time and that may have a negative impact on future programs like the MCA.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 08 Sep 2009 08:46

X-posted from other thread

Brazil to buy French military jets, technology

avinash.rd · Post by **avinash.rd** » 08 Sep 2009 09:11

GeorgeWelch,

Brazil to buy French military jets, technology.

Why do u think Brazil has decided to buy Rafale instead of F-18???

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 08 Sep 2009 09:33

Dmurphy wrote:X-posted from other thread

Brazil to buy French military jets, technology

The best thing about this news is that ToT played a major role in shaping the final opinion, something that will push the contenders here to reconsider their tight grip on technology. Its mentioned here that the bids are liable to change!

Loosen up or Lose!

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 08 Sep 2009 10:33

avinash.rd wrote:GeorgeWelch,

Brazil to buy French military jets, technology.

Why do u think Brazil has decided to buy Rafale instead of F-18???

It's not a surprise, Rafale was always the frontrunner in Brazil.

Brazil and France have close ties.

There is a lot of anti-Americanism within Lula's party/government.

France agreed to help develop and buy the KC-390.

avinash.rd · Post by **avinash.rd** » 08 Sep 2009 10:41

GeorgeWelch wrote: It's not a surprise, Rafale was always the frontrunner in Brazil.

Brazil and France have close ties.

There is a lot of anti-Americanism within Lula's party/government.

France agreed to help develop and buy the KC-390.

Can u pls let me know one more thing?

Can u tel me the difference in the AECS radars installed on both F-18 and Rafale. Which has got more range, better avionics etc?

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 08 Sep 2009 10:48

avinash.rd wrote:Can u pls let me know one more thing?

Can u tel me the difference in the AECS radars installed on both F-18 and Rafale. Which has got more range, better avionics etc?

The Rafale doesn't have an AESA currently.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 08 Sep 2009 10:59

Just saw an awesome sight...F-16 took off at full afterburner...the red/orange plume extending all the way back.....high speed low level takeoff......and then after couple of seconds..pulled real sharply and did a vertical charlie...went straight up into the clouds.....man..the General Electric F110-GE-132 make awesome noise.........

..good start to the day....

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 08 Sep 2009 11:16

http://www.latribune.fr/actualites/econ ... -suez.html (Translation needed)

The Rafale has bagged it's first export order it seems , 36 jets to Brazilian Air force , TOT inclusive. Perhaps this would increase their chances in the MMRCA contest.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 08 Sep 2009 11:34

I think the chances of winning F-16 MRCA are increasing, because.
1. I read somewhere where Lockheed Martin will move all of its F-16 assembly lines to India so that they can concentrate more on F-35.
2. Since Israel is also operating nearly 200-300 F-16 Sufas, the synergies of Indian assembly lines with tweaking of Israel avionics will create wonders for both Israel and India.
3. If indeed assembly lines are transferred, we can build as many as F-16s or we can move up ladder by building MCA in those lines.
4. More over Lockheed Martin promising F-35 technologies and eventual build up F-35 for MRCA, which is irresistible. (may be in future our carriers will be operating either F-35/N-LCA or Mig 29K/N-LCA.
5. From political point of view, we need to order 60-80 more Su-34 (ground attack), rather than going Su-35 (a marginal improvement over Su-30 MKI air dominance aircraft). May be we can create 20-30 Su-34 into electronic warfare machines same as Growlers.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Sep 2009 11:48

the F-16s currently in blr seem to be carrying a centerline fuel tank though missions are short here. no underwing payloads as expected.

makes me think IAF intends to always operate them with that tank hence testing it out like that. having the CFTs empty + full center tank maybe give some aerodynamic advantage like less stress on the wing ?

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 08 Sep 2009 11:59

kmkraoind wrote:I think the chances of winning F-16 MRCA are increasing, because.
1. I read somewhere where Lockheed Martin will move all of its F-16 assembly lines to India so that they can concentrate more on F-35.

We have been assembling Jags, Migs and Sukhois for ages and still haven't developed or reverse engineered any critical tech.
So how will this be any different.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 08 Sep 2009 12:17

AmitR wrote:
kmkraoind wrote:I think the chances of winning F-16 MRCA are increasing, because.
1. I read somewhere where Lockheed Martin will move all of its F-16 assembly lines to India so that they can concentrate more on F-35.
We have been assembling Jags, Migs and Sukhois for ages and still haven't developed or reverse engineered any critical tech.
So how will this be any different.

I don't know if this is true, but I believe that kmkraoind is saying that any future orders from ANY country for the F-16 would be filled by India, thus giving India a cut of any future F-16 sales.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 08 Sep 2009 12:39

prabir wrote:Yes, this makes sense. Buy the aircraft with a "political package" that takes care of the chinese. And for that matter, split the deal by buying MIG 35 from Russia and F-18 from US.

I have a dirty feeling since quite some time that this contract may be split into two, for geo-political reasons

K

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 08 Sep 2009 12:41

AmitR wrote:
kmkraoind wrote:I think the chances of winning F-16 MRCA are increasing, because.
1. I read somewhere where Lockheed Martin will move all of its F-16 assembly lines to India so that they can concentrate more on F-35.
We have been assembling Jags, Migs and Sukhois for ages and still haven't developed or reverse engineered any critical tech.
So how will this be any different.

Because we are assembling Jags and Sukhois in HAL, which is ridden with bureaucratic-style of working, which is not conducive to attract and retain better talent, thus the talent is slipping out of country to create better B-2, rather than LCA. So I hope in MRCA case, HAL will acts only as an integrator, but not to enter in in production/assembly line. Let the assembly work done by TATAs or L&Ts or others who at least able to build an eco system, which down the lines in 2020s, will able to create some military-industrial complex.

GeorgeWelch wrote: I don't know if this is true, but I believe that kmkraoind is saying that any future orders from ANY country for the F-16 would be filled by India, thus giving India a cut of any future F-16 sales.

I think US alone does not have assembly lines, many countries have also assembly lines. Do you think Pakis F-16s will be sent to India for refurbishing.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 08 Sep 2009 12:45

Katare wrote:
johnny_m wrote:Rafale just won the Brazil FX-2 tender. It should increase its chances in the MRCA
If true this would definately increase chances of Rafale in MRCA contest. If they can get UAE deal before MRCA it would certainly give them confidence and means to offer India a more competitive deal. Good luck Rafale!

It could be the other way round.

If France gets the UAE order it may tell India to #$@% off !!

Kersi

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 08 Sep 2009 12:50

Kersi D wrote:
prabir wrote:Yes, this makes sense. Buy the aircraft with a "political package" that takes care of the chinese. And for that matter, split the deal by buying MIG 35 from Russia and F-18 from US.
I have a dirty feeling since quite some time that this contract may be split into two, for geo-political reasons

K

geo-political might not be the only reason. The huge amount might also be the factor. Would anyone invest such an amount on just one country. I dont think so.

avinash.rd · Post by **avinash.rd** » 08 Sep 2009 12:51

Kersi D wrote: It could be the other way round.

If France gets the UAE order it may tell India to #$@% off !!

Kersi

But the UAE bought EF2000 instead of Rafale???????

avinash.rd · Post by **avinash.rd** » 08 Sep 2009 12:55

GeorgeWelch wrote:
The Rafale doesn't have an AESA currently.

The Rafale is already tested with AESA and if India buys Rafale, then I believe it would be the one with AESA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafale#AESA_Radar

Ranvijay · Post by **Ranvijay** » 08 Sep 2009 14:05

Let the assembly work done by TATAs or L&Ts or others who at least able to build an eco system, which down the lines in 2020s, will able to create some military-industrial complex.

This is excellent...lets just sell HAL off to the highest bidder. If we;re in a position where we have to delegate "mundane" chores such as assembly to the pvt sector, why have these behemoths like HAL and DRDO sitting there whining about GSQR's and limited budgets...

Let their employees go and flood the "Kaal cantars" for higher pay.

Jean_M · Post by **Jean_M** » 08 Sep 2009 15:05

Great news but nothing signed yet for Rafale.
About AESA radars, a Thales representative has presented RBE2 AESA as pretty similar to APG-79 ( http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpo ... stcount=68 )

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 08 Sep 2009 16:20

RAFALE has won the Brazilian Tender for 36 planes..

Can somebody help shorten the link for me?

http://redirectingat.com/?id=593X1004&u ... 507062.asp

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 08 Sep 2009 16:36

rkhanna wrote:RAFALE has won the Brazilian Tender for 36 planes..

Sarkozy attends a military parade in Brasilia and signed agreement with the Brazilian billionaire

johnny_m · Post by **johnny_m** » 08 Sep 2009 18:11

Singha wrote:the F-16s currently in blr seem to be carrying a centerline fuel tank though missions are short here. no underwing payloads as expected.

makes me think IAF intends to always operate them with that tank hence testing it out like that. having the CFTs empty + full center tank maybe give some aerodynamic advantage like less stress on the wing ?

I think it gives more information about the mission profile that the IAF intend to use the jets for than anything else. The CFTs can be removed if they are not needed. Flying with CFTs and a centreline fuel tank is common practice amongst Israeli F-16s.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 08 Sep 2009 18:14

AmitR wrote:
rkhanna wrote:RAFALE has won the Brazilian Tender for 36 planes..
Sarkozy attends a military parade in Brasilia and signed agreement with the Brazilian billionaire

This is a package deal, which is why the Rafale was bought. Not a knock on the deal, but certainly a reason why the Rafale "won".

In total, Brazil will spend $ 31.1 billion in agreements with France, including the purchase of submarines and helicopters.

That 31 billion seems rather high, none the less it is a package deal.

What it does NOT mention is the support Brazil is getting to develop the nuclear subs.

This is no way should impact the Indian MRCA.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 08 Sep 2009 18:40

avinash.rd wrote:
GeorgeWelch wrote:
The Rafale doesn't have an AESA currently.
The Rafale is already tested with AESA and if India buys Rafale, then I believe it would be the one with AESA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafale#AESA_Radar

The Rafale has been tested with 'an' AESA, not the final one, which hasn't even been delivered to Dassault yet.

As the article states, France isn't expected to receive any Rafales with AESA until 2012.

Yes, if India orders the Rafale it should come with AESA, but at this point it is still theoretical.

Also if you note, the ability to jam or transmit data is not funded.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Sep 2009 19:36

Yes,"Rafa" was bound to win once the N-sub assistance package was signed on not too long ago.Now if only the French also make us an offer which we can't refuse....,but I get the feeling that the Russkies have made us one already which we are enjoying right now!

As for anyone buying the F-16 and India getting a "cut" on sales,almost the entire western world has bought the F-16 and we will be the last suckers to buy it and its manufacturing infrastructure! Few are buying either the F-16 or F-18 and the JSF will be in service by 2015 not a decade later.Deliveries are definitely expected for the US and its allies by the middle of the next decade,by which time full production will be ongoing.The F-16 and F-18 by thn will be history unless India is suckered into buying either of these two hags.

With the Brazilian deal in the bag,Dassault can now offer a better price and package for the IAF,especially if it includes replacing all M-2000s with Rafales asap.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 08 Sep 2009 19:48

Philip wrote:especially if it includes replacing all M-2000s with Rafales asap.

The MRCA will not be replacing the Mirage.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Sep 2009 20:08

there is a $1b order already signed to upg the M2KH to the M2K9 std. whether the radar will be changed is not clear to me.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 08 Sep 2009 20:31

First and foremost the Brazilian deal is focused on the nuclear submarines - ONLY because Brazil has found a boat load of oil offshore and badly needs assets to protect these oil fields.

Given that the French can say anything they want WRT the Rafales and the Brazilians will not care. The Rafales are not teh foucs - they are important none the less, but not that important as the nuke subs.

As for anyone buying the F-16 and India getting a "cut" on sales,almost the entire western world has bought the F-16 and we will be the last suckers to buy it and its manufacturing infrastructure!

Perhaps, suckers. But this sucker will be dependent on providing a decent deal of spares to other non-suckers. Not bad for being a sucker.

Few are buying either the F-16 or F-18 and the JSF will be in service by 2015 not a decade later.Deliveries are definitely expected for the US and its allies by the middle of the next decade ,by which time full production will be ongoing.The F-16 and F-18 by thn will be history unless India is suckered into buying either of these two hags.

ANNEX A (APRIL 2007 REVISION) ESTIMATED JSF AIR VEHICLE PROCUREMENT QUANTITIES

(They are already late, so push the years by that many:)

With the Brazilian deal in the bag,Dassault can now offer a better price and package for the IAF,especially if it includes replacing all M-2000s with Rafales asap.

France and make a "better price and package"?

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 08 Sep 2009 23:59

funny what silly people we are,,i don' know why are people so against buying american weapons,,,this is 21st century,,cold war is over,conditions have changed,pakistan is busy with its war on terror,,real threat is china,,reports say china may attack india in 2012,,because it wants to deviate attention from its internal matters.WAKE UP TO THE REALITY FELLOW INDIANS ,,,SCRAP THE NON ALIGNMENT TREATY AND ENTER NATO,,like many american enemies during cold war like POLAND,BULGARIA ,ALBANIA,HUNGARY,SLOVAKIA,SLOVENIA,ROMANIA have done,,,with uncle sam helping us we can be very strong,,,but if we continue to be same ,,we may well have to face the same embarrassment of 1962,,,,so go and forge a strategic partnership with usa,,,the first step is buy american mmrca,,,,we already have large number of su-30mki,,,we cant put all eggs in russian basket,,french got scorpene,,may even get the artillery deal for 180 caesar truck mounnted howitzer,,,go for f/a-18,,,f-16 is obsolete,,f-18 operating with mki and pak-fa will be extremely potent,,,pak-fa and su-30mki,will knock out enemy air defenses like fighter or SAM ,,SUPER HORNET WILL GO FOR STRIKE,,KICKING out high profile enemy military and political targets