Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Jagan » 08 Sep 2009 21:54

I just flew back from desh to Uncle Land yesterday by Air India B777. extremely happy with the service. They had me when they were serving drinks and I asked for whisky , the response was, "you want 2 - 3 or 4 pegs?" :mrgreen: (and this was in cattle class)

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Sriman » 08 Sep 2009 22:05

manish wrote:I quite like the fact that new competition is finally emerging in the bread-n-butter market for the Big Two - single aisle mainline narrowbodies. A320 and B737 families may have to put up with some serious competition if the likes of the above mentioned Comac C919, Bombardier CSeries and the Embraer 195 mount a serious enough challenge.

Add the Sukhoi Superjet to the competitor list as well.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby manish » 08 Sep 2009 23:03

Sriman wrote:
manish wrote:I quite like the fact that new competition is finally emerging in the bread-n-butter market for the Big Two - single aisle mainline narrowbodies. A320 and B737 families may have to put up with some serious competition if the likes of the above mentioned Comac C919, Bombardier CSeries and the Embraer 195 mount a serious enough challenge.

Add the Sukhoi Superjet to the competitor list as well.

Srimanji, I actually typed out the Superjet first, then dropped it considering the fact that it is slightly smaller(<100 seats) and hence in the RJ category. But I think you are right in saying that it could turn out to be a strong contender. Also the western collaboration and parts give it a better shot as well. But there are a few uncertainties surrounding it and last time I checked, there were rumours that Russian govt. itself had ditched it in favour of an An for doing future VVIP transport duties :eek: .

Apparently our very own MDLR Airlines too had apparently considered the Superjet, but is said to be zeroing in on others now as the Superjet's certification was getting delayed.
India's MDLR looking to get new RJs

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 08 Sep 2009 23:04

sooner the bloated flat oligarch duopoly is dealt a blow the better. run them out of the < 200 pax market and corral them into twin aisle jets.

EMB is it!

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby manish » 08 Sep 2009 23:23

Singha wrote:sooner the bloated flat oligarch duopoly is dealt a blow the better. run them out of the < 200 pax market and corral them into twin aisle jets.

EMB is it!

Yup! But I am backing the Bombardier though :)
It is a daring and high risk shot straight at the mainline narrowbody market without Sugar Daddys like the Chinese Govt to back it.
Also the first 'purpose-built' non-Boeing/AB plane in that market in decades! If the promised cost savings come through, should be a nice, future-proof choice (say for a decade+ with new engine tech+aerodynamics) for LCCs in emerging markets I think. And till now at least, no announced rival design from either Airbus or Boeing, who are doing really well with the existing designs where the newest basic airframe design harks back to the 1980s.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 09 Sep 2009 12:59

It is ironic to see that the management of the same airline company which instigated and threatened take mass action by roping in other airlines to go on a national strike en masse a short while ago, for a government bailout package is objecting to the pilots strike.

Sauce for the goose not sauce for the gander?

The other carriers are behaving exactly like auto drivers during a taxi strike. All of them have hiked up their prices to loot the passengers.

The managements had no consideration for the passengers during their proposed strike but now their hearts seem to bleed profusely for the same passengers.

This particular " family " (as per the words used by naresh goel to describe his employees), seems to be constantly at loggerheads with all its members. First, it sacked hundreds of cabin crew and engineers and now it has managed to piss off the pilots.

Helloooo! anybody at the wheel??

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Sachin » 09 Sep 2009 13:16

Jagan wrote:"you want 2 - 3 or 4 pegs?" :mrgreen: (and this was in cattle class)

This happened to me in my trip to the UK. When I asked for the whisky, he just came in with around 4 plastic tumblers filled approx 1 peg in each of it, gave enough soda/snacks and left with a smile. Kind of "enjoy your drinks, and dont trouble me for some time" stance :D.

Apart from this good gesture, had a flight with no Individual IFE, a couple of TV screens which did not work well. When it was food time, many of the passengers took out their home made lunch packs and the air craft started smelling like a Indian Vegetable/Masala store in Southall ;). Just after the flight took off from Mumbai at 4AM, there was a "mandatory sleep" for all passengers. All windows to be shut, and every one ordered to take rest.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby manish » 10 Sep 2009 01:47

Sriman wrote:
manish wrote:I quite like the fact that new competition is finally emerging in the bread-n-butter market for the Big Two - single aisle mainline narrowbodies. A320 and B737 families may have to put up with some serious competition if the likes of the above mentioned Comac C919, Bombardier CSeries and the Embraer 195 mount a serious enough challenge.

Add the Sukhoi Superjet to the competitor list as well.

Now the Japanese want to get on to the 100-seater category by stretching their MRJ...
Mitsubishi unveils major changes to MRJ programme
Mitsubishi Aircraft has introduced a stretched variant to its MRJ regional jet family and unveiled extensive design changes, including using aluminium instead of carbonfibre composites for the aircraft's wings.

Some serious changes - Mitsubishi claims this is going to help in weight reduction. Gurulog, do you think the 787 fiasco is scaring people away from extensive use of composites in commercial aircraft construction?

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Sachin » 10 Sep 2009 11:12

Jet Airways pilot's show-down continues for the second day. By the way, why is Jet management so adamant against a Pilot's Guild or trade union? I am seeing this in other industries like IT as well :?: .

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby merlin » 10 Sep 2009 17:24

Sachin wrote:Jet Airways pilot's show-down continues for the second day. By the way, why is Jet management so adamant against a Pilot's Guild or trade union? I am seeing this in other industries like IT as well :?: .


Hope this gets resolved by tomorrow latest. Have to take a JetConnect flight on Saturday and if not that flight will get cancelled! If I don't get onto another I'm toast :((

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby krishnan » 10 Sep 2009 19:30

merlin wrote:
Sachin wrote:Jet Airways pilot's show-down continues for the second day. By the way, why is Jet management so adamant against a Pilot's Guild or trade union? I am seeing this in other industries like IT as well :?: .


Hope this gets resolved by tomorrow latest. Have to take a JetConnect flight on Saturday and if not that flight will get cancelled! If I don't get onto another I'm toast :((


Dont worry saar, air india is there for you :)

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby merlin » 11 Sep 2009 17:44

Only if Jet rebooks me on it. I'm not spending more of my money buying tickets.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Suppiah » 12 Sep 2009 18:57

Looks like our pilots are having trouble deciding whether they are 'vendors' ie., free to hike prices anytime, exploit any shortage in market and fleece the 'customers' ie the airlines or do they want to be employees - ie security of tenure, some stability that cuts both ways etc. Look like they want it this way if economy is good and that way if it turns bad.

Time to fix it. All airlines, including air parasites should work together to tackle this menace. Or we will see this recur time and again. And GOI should invest in aviation training because the nation is not running short of young men and women with some basic intelligence, english skills, required height and weight, and clear eyesight which is all it takes to train one to be a pilot. The cost is currently prohibitive because there is no govt. funding/sponsorship/loans etc., which essentially means pilots come from cream of already-rich society and hence plunder even worse than auto wallahs as they lack any basic sense of ethics or morals a common feature of our money bag class.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Suppiah » 12 Sep 2009 19:10

Jagan wrote:I just flew back from desh to Uncle Land yesterday by Air India B777. extremely happy with the service. They had me when they were serving drinks and I asked for whisky , the response was, "you want 2 - 3 or 4 pegs?" :mrgreen: (and this was in cattle class)


You are calling that good service?! That is a rather impolite way of saying 'you drunkard, you are any way going to bug me 3-4 times for next hour or so, so can I just dump the whole thing in one go and have some peace?' A good airline like SQ/CX will never do that, wait for you to finish and then ask if you want another one because they constantly cruise the aisles looking out for customers, except during rest hours.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby manish » 12 Sep 2009 20:04

Suppiah wrote:Looks like our pilots are having trouble deciding whether they are 'vendors' ie., free to hike prices anytime, exploit any shortage in market and fleece the 'customers' ie the airlines or do they want to be employees - ie security of tenure, some stability that cuts both ways etc. Look like they want it this way if economy is good and that way if it turns bad.

Time to fix it. All airlines, including air parasites should work together to tackle this menace. Or we will see this recur time and again. And GOI should invest in aviation training because the nation is not running short of young men and women with some basic intelligence, english skills, required height and weight, and clear eyesight which is all it takes to train one to be a pilot. The cost is currently prohibitive because there is no govt. funding/sponsorship/loans etc., which essentially means pilots come from cream of already-rich society and hence plunder even worse than auto wallahs as they lack any basic sense of ethics or morals a common feature of our money bag class.

Very well put Suppiah sir! Naresh Goyal is no saint, but the pilots are truly over the line this time IMHO.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 13 Sep 2009 01:05

business std:

Jet pilots call off agitation
BS Reporters / New Delhi September 13, 2009, 0:01 IST

Pilots’ union to be dissolved, say sources

In a late night development, the agitating Jet Airways pilots decided to resume duty after seven hours of talks with the senior management.

Under the agreement, the National Aviators’ Guild (NAG), the union of the pilots, decided to join duty with immediate effect. The management, said sources, decided to take back the sacked pilots. The NAG, they said, would be dissolved and a committee to look into the coordination between the pilots and the management would be formed. The committee would work under the central labour commissioner. Dissolution of the NAG was one of the main demands of the airline’s management.

Earlier in the evening, after a meeting with the Jet Airways management led by Executive Director Saroj Datta in Hotel Athithi in Mumbai, NAG President Girish Kaushik and the chief negotiator for the pilots had said: “I would pray to God that we start flying today itself.”

There were indications that the management had softened its stance in the confrontation. At the time, the management had told the pilots that it will not insist on disbanding their union, though it wants them to consider the wisdom of a union. In the past, it has insisted on the abolishment of the union as a precondition for talks. “The management has not insisted on disbanding the union but has some reservation on what the union could mean for the organisation,” said Kaushik.

Yesterday, nine-hour-long negotiations between the management of Jet Airways and the pilots of NAG ended in a deadlock with the management agreeing to reinstate the four sacked pilots but with a stiff rider: Dissolve the union and form an association. The condition put forward by the management was not acceptable to the pilots.

Even as members of the pilots’ union went into a huddle to discuss the offer late in the evening, the airline, which operates 365 domestic and 74 international flights daily, was forced to cancel over 281 flights today, including 21 international flights.

On Thursday, a draft was worked out late night between Congress leader Sanjay Nirupam, representatives of the pilots and Jet Airways Chairman Naresh Goyal in which the management agreed to reinstate the sacked pilots.

It all started when the airline management terminated the services of two pilots — Sam Thomas and D Balaraman — allegedly for forming a union. Jet pilots, who earlier had an association, formed a union, NAG. They alleged that the airline management changed some clauses in their contracts.

The union was registered on July 21 and the pilots were terminated on July 31. The pilots then tried to negotiate with the management but when nothing worked out they gave an indefinite strike call from September 7, which was later called off since the conciliatory proceedings were on with the labour commissioner. But the pilots went on mass sick leave which badly disturbed the operations of Jet.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Sriman » 13 Sep 2009 01:40

We want dignity and not money

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... 20/369897/

"If your office gets taken over by foreigners, what do you do? Captain Sam Thomas, joint secretary, National Aviators’ Guild (NAG), who was sacked by Jet Airways for forming a union of pilots, asks Sreelatha Menon"

But why did you form a union now?
We had a good association for the last ten years. We also have the Society for Welfare of Indian Pilots. But the expatriate management from the Arab countries is not used to workers having any rights. They are used to Indians coming to their countries and working like slaves. The association and the management had several agreements on working conditions but the expatriate management is going back on most of them.

What is the proportion of expatriates in the management?
Our management is completely expatriate. Our CEO is from Australia, the COO is from Bahrain, two top officials are from Ireland, while another is from Australia.

What was the immediate provocation?
There were many provocations during the last two years. The latest was regarding our career progression and promotions. No promotions were happening and all our allowances were cut. We understood that it was because of the recession. But if you are cutting our allowances, you can’t hire foreigners at double salaries. The foreign management was making Indians wait indefinitely for promotions. If your office gets taken over by foreigners, what do you do? We want dignity and not money. Money can’t be a substitute for dignity.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Suppiah » 13 Sep 2009 08:21

Re. Pilot chief interview.

Interesting he singles out 'Arab management' by name though the list has only one Bahraini and Bahrain by the standard of the ME is a country of saints. WTF do they need Arabs running airlines here?! Given the interesting stories on Jet ownership this is indeed :shock:

By the pilots logic we should have CEO's union, CIOs union, Company secretary union and so on..great development for future of country.

He is also insulting the profession of doctors and basically calling them liars who can be bought for a cheap price when he says he can get medical certs for 400 people who simultaneously, across many cities, fall sick. He can say that with a straight face only in our country. Hope the doctors union will now protest. :mrgreen:

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Suppiah » 13 Sep 2009 08:39

Yes, the strike is over..official now. Both sides seem to have scaled back a bit, with the pilots not disbanding the union 'but not the pursue the matter if the registrar does not register it because of some technical discrepancy in application'..what a joke.. :rotfl:

Goyal, is not saint of course, and so are the other money bags that control other airlines. Less said about IA/AI the better of course. However, aviation is a sector that has enormous ripple effect on overall economy, both in good and bad ways. GOI should start fixing the problem of manpower shortage in terms of controllers, pilots, maintenance specialists etc., on war footing. In fact this will help the war side as well because IAF is also running short of men. Every cent invested in this will pay back many times over.

These skilled 'labor' cannot be allowed to hold country to ransom. Create oversupply, their common sense will tell them to behave.

They have probably paid the price anyway since the hard core group will find it tough to find jobs with any other decent airline given their union antics, except perhaps during times of boom.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Suraj » 15 Sep 2009 00:19

New Delhi IGI T3 is visible in this video (the two long 'L' shaped terminals with the central building in between), and indicates the size of the terminal in comparison to the old T2 (current international terminal), which is also visible in front of it. Just shows the size of the new terminal, and why it will be among the biggest in the world when built:

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Aerial Racing Competition?

Postby Sanjay M » 16 Sep 2009 07:42

So I was thinking further on this X-Prize competition that's occurring in the US, along with an affiliated competition known as Rocket Racing League, which is modeled after sportscar racing.

I see Indians now boldly entering into racecar competitions as well, with teams like Force India, etc.
I'm wondering why India couldn't likewise host an aerial racing competition, to cultivate similar private team efforts among Indians aimed at pushing the envelope of flight.
You know there are plenty of daredevils in India, and certainly no shortage of the foolhardy, so that any competition would have more than a few takers, who could solicit corporate sponsorship for funding.

Perhaps contestants could take off at Sriharikota and land at Port Blair -- a distance of nearly 1400 km -- and then fly back again, with the top 3 fastest flight times being awarded prizes.

An annual event such as this could also promote international tourism, leveraging off India's name as a growing space technology hub, while stimulating development of homegrown innovation in aviation technologies.

What do you all think? Comments?

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby vasu_ray » 16 Sep 2009 08:26

lets figure out these,

how many players are in aerospace in the private sector?

how many of these private players invest in real R&D?

does their infrastructure have at least any wind tunnels?

what is the market they want to invest in when other huge opportunities with less risk like Nano exist?

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India Aerial Competition

Postby Sanjay M » 16 Sep 2009 18:09

Well, I'm talking about more of a sports style competition, like Formula-1 racing, or LeMans, or IPL, etc.
But it could perhaps spur all kinds of small innovations in aviation tech with the emergence of domestic local competitor teams, as everyone vies to win the prize.

I don't think everything needs to be tested in a wind tunnel. Do racecar drivers test everything in a wind tunnel, etc? No, they field test it.

Maybe such an event could be held around the same time as an airshow, so that the contenders including the winners could showcase their aircraft as part of the show.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby vishwakarmaa » 18 Sep 2009 00:13

vasu_ray wrote:how many players are in aerospace in the private sector?
how many of these private players invest in real R&D?


Indian corporates depend on foreign for R&D.

While Indian top students choose to work for Western companies, China has been successful in utilising their top-brains for improving its R&D muscles.

Even China doesn't have X-prize thing. Its better we stop copying west and do things which are more important right now. West has a lot to waste since they can print 'dollars'. We don't have that luxury.

We should focus on building domestic private R&D houses and protect them from foreign funds, like china does. After 20 years, there should be atleast 5 Indian MNC goliaths with expertise in different technology domains. Considering current trend of Indian corporates running behind western hot money(dollar press machine), it seems all Indians MNC's will be an extension to Western Gora empire soon.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Suppiah » 23 Sep 2009 14:07

Air parasite has managed to find the exact opposite of the solution it should be going for. It plans to cut benefits to senior managers but keep massive ranks of clerical parasites and so-called cabin crew well fed enjoying sky high pay and doing nothing.

Great..the only nice thing about this is that it might hasten the demise of this bottomless pit that is a shame on India and Indians.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 044433.cms

The original idea behind this so called PLI was to reward senior folks with specialised skills but cannot be compensated because then all senior officers of all the PSU will ask for similar salaries. As with PSUs, this got diverted into a loot all for all lower level gang of parasites who are already overpaid and will not find a decent job once they are chucked out of AI.

Now they are taking it off for those that deserve it..once economy turns around, Jet and others will grab the best of the lot and leave the looters with a bigger begging bowl.

Long live Indian socialism!

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Vasu » 24 Sep 2009 22:56

dont worry, eat curry.

The CWG may be a huge question mark, but at least our airport is moving ahead.

Mods, please forgive me for posting the inline image, but its beautiful!

Image
taken from our section at Skyscrapercity Forum. All copyrights acknowledged.

Date of picture is September 20. There are more pictures on SSC. Do check them out. Lets get rid of that horrendous triangle we've called IGI for so long.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby rachel » 26 Sep 2009 18:26

The picture does look great.

One question: it seems that T3 (from the pic) is almost surrounded by either runways or other terminals. Seems there is not muchg space to put in road connections to the expressways.

Look at the pic.. there is only a narrow corridor available to the right of T3. To the left and below T3 are its runways, up above T3 is some other terminal and its runways.

Are the expressways far to the right of T3? And what of the metro connection? Will it be underground to T3, or will it be elevated or at-grade?

If elevated or at-grade, then you'd have to fit in metro line, and roadways in that narrow corridor (seems narrow from the pic anyway).

Anyone have any idea how that'll work?

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Vasu » 26 Sep 2009 21:52

The road connection to DGE is quite adequate imho, but i think they need to work on creating more space at the foot of the exit ramp, which gets clogged because of heavy traffic. BTW, theres plenty of space in that corridor!

The thin line coming from the right corner of the central square looks like the approach ramp to T3. There will be space created at the other end once area in front of the current terminal is used, and even more when the terminal is demolished.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby SRoy » 26 Sep 2009 22:09

rachel wrote:The picture does look great.

One question: it seems that T3 (from the pic) is almost surrounded by either runways or other terminals. Seems there is not muchg space to put in road connections to the expressways.

Look at the pic.. there is only a narrow corridor available to the right of T3. To the left and below T3 are its runways, up above T3 is some other terminal and its runways.

Are the expressways far to the right of T3? And what of the metro connection? Will it be underground to T3, or will it be elevated or at-grade?

If elevated or at-grade, then you'd have to fit in metro line, and roadways in that narrow corridor (seems narrow from the pic anyway).

Anyone have any idea how that'll work?


Metro connection is underground.

There are two touch points to NH8 expressway.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby nelson » 28 Sep 2009 20:29

http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/air_india_to_suspend_operations_starting_midnight.php

:oops:
after the Jet saga, the pilots have been emboldened and see what is in store.... "Suspend Operations" from the ... socialist republic of india...

next what? ESMA

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Suppiah » 29 Sep 2009 17:01

AI pilots are doing the nation a huge favor by killing this airline. The clerical parasites limitless plunder has not been stopped but the executive pilots are made to pay. Long live socialism!

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Gagan » 29 Sep 2009 20:27

I don't agree.
Can't let the skies open to a coterie of private players either. The private players are an unscrupulous lot all of them. They will form a mafia and sucker the consumer.

AI needs to stay to temper the industry.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby milindc » 29 Sep 2009 21:14

Gagan wrote:I don't agree.
Can't let the skies open to a coterie of private players either. The private players are an unscrupulous lot all of them. They will form a mafia and sucker the consumer.

AI needs to stay to temper the industry.


For that, should we bail them out for 20,000 crores. How does aam aadmi benefit ?
Only the netas and babu class benefit at the cost of nation.
Imagine what would happen if the same amount is provided as viability gap for road development.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Abhijeet » 29 Sep 2009 22:59

Gagan wrote:I don't agree.
Can't let the skies open to a coterie of private players either. The private players are an unscrupulous lot all of them. They will form a mafia and sucker the consumer.

AI needs to stay to temper the industry.


A regulator is the sane answer to prevent private industry cartels, not a living dead government airline.

Anyway, AI is doing a good enough job of suckering taxpayers without bringing private airlines into it.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Abhijeet » 29 Sep 2009 23:02

By the way, if you like jalebi, this interview is a must read:

http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/curren ... 17150.html

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Sachin » 30 Sep 2009 11:21

Abhijeet wrote:A regulator is the sane answer to prevent private industry cartels, not a living dead government airline.

Can a TRAI-like setup framed for Airline industry as well? How effective has been TRAI in dealing with unscrupulous cell phone service providers?

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Dileep » 30 Sep 2009 15:27

^^^Exactly. TRAI is the right model. ARAI?

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Suppiah » 01 Oct 2009 07:08

I agree in principle with Gagan re the congential crookedness of indian moneybag class. They will sell their mothers if price is right. But the answer is not more plundering parasitic looters, at least not for service oriented airline business.

While TRAI model is far better than the earlier model of ministry babus running show, it is far from perfect. The problem of any govt. body is that even if you select strong outsiders, they eventually become babus and on top of that they dont have executive authority of the kind real babus have. Strong anti-competition, racketeering and cartel laws, plus the threat of opening skies to any top 10 overseas carrier to ply domestic routes, if fares are high is the answer..

AI should be killed, planes sold and the staff PF balances seized. They should also be prosecuted for systematic attempts at destruction of India's tourism and industrial economy.

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Suppiah » 01 Oct 2009 07:18

BTW, just returned from BKK land of smiles. The new (for me) Suvarnabhumi airport has a huge and glorius Thai style tableau / sculpture showing the churning of ocean of milk based on the kurma-avatar story. Wonder if any of you folks noticed.

I could not help thinking how much of a racket a piece like that would caused in Indian airports, if one had been proposed. Stalinist mass murderers, rapist goons and assorted fake secular puppets would have made a big fuss, sewage rowdies of TN and their legitimate and illegitimate offspring, whose rationalism is confined to uttering slander against Hindus and their gods would have staged protests, anyone supporting it would have been labeled Hindutva fanatics and fascists by the yellow media..Barkha Dutt would be screaming her head off... :rotfl:

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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby armenon » 01 Oct 2009 13:02

^^

Awe inspiring stuff..

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