MRCA News and Discussion

vina · Post by **vina** » 11 Sep 2009 09:41

Yes, I think it will be single engine ones that have the edge. The real competition will be between the F16 and Gripen NG. I think Gripen NG, with the F414 will be a more efficient package and acquistion costs and everything points towards Gripen NG and F16. The others are huge maintenance and acquisition cost hogs. We have the SU 30 for the heavy fighter role. I think Gripen NG will have the edge by virtue if it being a newer and more efficient plane

For all this talk about "MRCA' and everything, the IAF fleet will be just two classes, the SU 30 heavies and the Gripen NG and LCA MkII.. Note.. The LCA MKII is really a Gripen NG class fighter. ToT of AESA of Gripen and putting it on the LCA MKII and acquisition of GE 414 will make both very similar fighters indeed.. But my bets are on the BLK 60. It really is a bigger plane, can carry more weapons in ground attack role has awesome range and very low acquistion and life cycle cost. Would put my money on that. Gripen would have had an awesome chance if the LCA hadn't been there of course, but it is nearly there with the IOC in 2011/2 and the MKII version coming out soon after that.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 11 Sep 2009 10:05

This is BRF Observation Officer reporting from the Forward Observation Post:

The F-16s are using the IL-78 for the refeuling excercise. Just saw an IL-78 take off....low level, flat take off..from my level in the building....it looked scaringly close.....it's bloody huge...been some time since I saw an IL-76...

.....followed by a lone F-16..again...sharp take off and steep climb....will keep the jirga posted...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Sep 2009 10:21

so f-solah has a aar probe now? most f16 use the other system.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 11 Sep 2009 10:33

^^^ GD I might be wrong, IIRC the solah E/F uses the hose droughe system as compared to the boom one....I think.

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 11 Sep 2009 10:35

andy B wrote:^^^ GD I might be wrong, IIRC the solah E/F uses the hose droughe system as compared to the boom one....I think.

http://www.stratpost.com/f-16-innovates ... ca-contest

Lockheed Martin has configured its F-16 fighter to enable it to meet the air-to-air refueling requirements laid down for the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) contest of the Indian Air Force (IAF). The defense contractor has enabled the aircraft with the ‘Probe and Drogue’ system, a demonstrator of which was displayed at the Paris Air Show recently.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 11 Sep 2009 10:37

Singha wrote:so my theory was right - F16 should be cheaper than F18 (?) and without the added penalty of naval fuselage and canted pylons. in terms of wing loading neither look like great dogfighters -vs- EF/Rafale's big delta wings but perhaps thats not the customers main focus area in terms of weightage.

and as a bonus , all the stuff tested on SUFA can replace bits and pieces of
the all-american cornfed gear onboard the default config quite cheaply as its already tested for years now. python5-check, litening4-check,elisra ew-check, rafael HMS-check, rafael LGB kits-check...

the aperture of the APG80 is certainly smaller than APG79 but perhaps northrop grumann (makers of platinum coated tip-of-spear APG77/81) have better handle on things than raytheon in that dept.

and a single engine plane would surely need less groundcrew for engine upkeep than a twin even if in-the-air flight hr cost is comparable.

Saar while the above mentioned stuff can indeed be considered gold stuff I wonder how much pressure would the Yehudis be able to endure in case Khan really starts to push their buttons just a thought....I dunno why but I get an unerving feeling about the IAF flying either the Athara or the Solah even though they are really good jets....hmmm.

Also correct me if I am wrong but I think the Sufa is like the heaviest solah every built IIRC even heavier than the E/F model...

Once can only imagine all the gizmos the sufa is packed with and all the ityvity running in the background

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 11 Sep 2009 10:44

Here's a list of Israeli weapons on the Sufa. Not sure if it's a comprehensive list:

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/ ... F-16I.html

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 11 Sep 2009 12:23

AnantD wrote:Re Rafail, I say we don't need another demonstration of its capabilities after we got one from the French during Kargil over Karachi. Boy was it impressive!

Hey what was that ? Cab you elaborate ?

K

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 11 Sep 2009 12:45

Singha wrote:so f-solah has a aar probe now? most f16 use the other system.

tested out, yes, but not operational on UAE Desert Falcons. So, these F-16s in Bangalore cannot recieve fuel from a probe/drouge system that the IL-78 Midas tankers have. the location of the retractable probe is behind the pilots line of sight though..its mounted on the starboard side.

F-16IN publicity CG image

F-16 innovates for MMRCA contest
Wednesday, August 26, 2009
By Saurabh Joshi
Lockheed Martin has configured its F-16 fighter to enable it to meet the air-to-air refueling requirements laid down for the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) contest of the Indian Air Force (IAF). The defense contractor has enabled the aircraft with the ‘Probe and Drogue’ system, a demonstrator of which was displayed at the Paris Air Show recently.

According to John Giese of Lockheed Martin the aircraft requires conformal tanks to enable air-to-air refueling. Other air forces that operate the F-16 too, have taken notice. “Israel was interested. If the Israeli Air Force (F-16 aircraft) were to have conformal tanks, they could be enabled too,” he said.

Lockheed Martin especially engineered an F-16 for the purpose of meeting the Indian requirements, enabling the aircraft to use the ‘Probe and Drogue’ system for refueling with a retractable refueling boom attached to its conformal tanks. “We’ve developed this capability over the past few years,” said Giese.

Conformal tanks, unlike drop tanks which can be discarded after use, are additional fuel tanks that are fitted into the architecture of an aircraft to optimize its aerodynamic shape.

The capability for air-to-air refueling is considered strategically significant as it extends the range and endurance of the aircraft being refueled. Probe and Drogue allows tankers to refuel multiple aircraft at the same time and is also used by the IAF’s Il-78 tankers

Ranvijay · Post by **Ranvijay** » 11 Sep 2009 13:33

Around 11-12 pm I think, two jets made quick passes over the Koramangala/christ college area. They were very, very loud. Woke me (and my dog) up (

). F-16's probably, Ive never seen/heard jags fly this low and neither have I seen an LCA this low/make this much noise.

Dev A · Post by **Dev A** » 11 Sep 2009 13:34

Sorry in advance if this thread is not topic specific.

While trying to photograph the Vipers on 8th, I took a photo of a Jaguar. It was painted all yellow and the tail was JS174. Need some help identifying it and also how to track down the MSN. Is it from the 17th Squadron ? Why would it be painted all yellow ?

Devesh

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Sep 2009 13:35

Sufa afaik is a block52 with some EW gear replaced by yehudi stuff. the radar is the very same APGabV9 radar as on greece falcons and other users and the same pakistan is likely to get in 2010.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... -pic04.jpg

the UAE block60 is the heaviest one imo but perhaps not too different from
Sufa.

new build jaguars being tested from HAL get the yellow primer.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 11 Sep 2009 13:39

SaiK wrote:George Welch, I think we call allow EADS to say about future technologies that could possible be with MMRCA as upgrades

Except they said nothing of the sort. There was no reference to the MRCA or India in the article.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 11 Sep 2009 13:42

Against the popular opinion here, my vote is for the Gripen.

A better platform that allows for future growth, sanction resistance, learning ability, low cost, turnaround time cannot be found.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 11 Sep 2009 14:31

I just saw an IL78 take off over wilson garden... It was following a track quite similar to a F16 that just flew over my house... Second time today... One was some time around 1130 Could there be a possibility that the refueling system ha some issues that needs some tinkering???

Dev A wrote:Sorry in advance if this thread is not topic specific.

While trying to photograph the Vipers on 8th, I took a photo of a Jaguar. It was painted all yellow and the tail was JS174. Need some help identifying it and also how to track down the MSN. Is it from the 17th Squadron ? Why would it be painted all yellow ?

Devesh

Hi could you send the image to my email id [email protected]...

NRao wrote:X-posting:

Second Generation AESA for Gripen
"What we are offering is a second generation AESA (advanced extended search array radar) that incorporates a swishplate that enables it to rotate and considerably enhances its capabilities over the existing radar," Gripen International's India director Eddy de la Motte told reporters Wednesday.

"The radar will come with its software source code."
This stuff about the "swishplate" is great, but I would think that conformals would be far better.

Could someone please explain this to me and how it affects the overall performance of the aircraft????

Hope the guru's don't mind teaching this kid.. And thanks in advance...

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 11 Sep 2009 14:35

Is it swashplate or swishplate?

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 11 Sep 2009 14:47

Its swashplate.. i forgot to correct it in the quote... sorry, my mistake...

Vishnu · Post by **Vishnu** » 11 Sep 2009 14:57

As I understand it ... the swash-plate mechanically shifts the entire phased array either left or right ... allowing detection of targets and the ability to maintain lock more than a 100 degrees on either side of the jet. In the process, it minimises signal loss at extreme angles ... something Gripen claims is a significant downside to normal AESA operations.

Thanks
Vishnu

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 11 Sep 2009 16:37

Vishnu... you have flown in all the planes.. so whats your choice of MRCA? just curious..

Jaison · Post by **Jaison** » 11 Sep 2009 16:43

Hi everyone

,This is my first post in BR..

LM claims the F 16 IN is an entirely new aircraft with 5th gen capabilities

. Does anyone have any idea what's different in the F16 IN and the Block 60 Desert Eagle ??? Guess aerial refuelling is one ! Sorry if this has been discussed before.
Thanks

Dr.Jaison.

Dev A · Post by **Dev A** » 11 Sep 2009 16:49

I have managed to take some photos of the Shornets and SVipers. Put a few on my Flickr in case any one is interested. http://www.flickr.com/photos/bangalorea ... 040001432/

TIA

Devesh

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 11 Sep 2009 16:57

Dev A wrote:I have managed to take some photos of the Shornets and SVipers. Put a few on my Flickr in case any one is interested. http://www.flickr.com/photos/bangalorea ... 040001432/

TIA

Devesh

"tester93" & "rocket2" -- How did you catch the callsigns??

Vishnu · Post by **Vishnu** » 11 Sep 2009 16:58

manjgu wrote:Vishnu... you have flown in all the planes.. so whats your choice of MRCA? just curious..

My choice ?

The Tu-160 Blackjack

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Sep 2009 17:43

Vishnu , have you flown that as well

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Sep 2009 17:48

the pod on chin pylon of F-solah seems to be Sniper. F-athrah uses the more conventional (rounded) looking Atflir pod.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 Sep 2009 17:56

It's all going to come down to the bean counters finally.If the costs are fairly even for all the twin-engined fighters,which I doubt very much,as the Typhoon is prohibitively expensive-you can get two Su-30MKIs for one Typhoon,then political considerations will play a vital role.It depends upon the IAF's evaluation process,how it will distinguish pluses and minuses between single and twin-engined aircraft.As someone said,no extra points for being far above required specs.

AnantD · Post by **AnantD** » 11 Sep 2009 18:24

And please don't forget that the Spyder system just ordered by GOI also uses Derby and Python 5. F16Block60IN advantages:

1. Single Engine and the second least expensive
2. Upgrade to JSF later
3. Uses Sufa weapons and sensors, hence long upgrade path
4. F414 may be made common with Tejas II or MCA
5. Makes Fizaya livid

6. Manufacturing line with more TOT than F18, since they will argue its phased out of USAF
7. Atleast 2 other non US manufacturers so spares will be available for a long time. US MOD might look the otherway even if Congress sanctions, though very very unlikely now.

I did vote for the F18, seems would be more cutting edge from a radar, sensors, ECM POV well into the future.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 11 Sep 2009 18:32

Dev A wrote:I have managed to take some photos of the Shornets and SVipers. Put a few on my Flickr in case any one is interested. http://www.flickr.com/photos/bangalorea ... 040001432/

TIA

Devesh

Nice pictures, thanks for sharing
Can you post those images in high resolution, especially the BSF Dhruv?

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 11 Sep 2009 19:20

Kersi D wrote:
AnantD wrote:Re Rafail, I say we don't need another demonstration of its capabilities after we got one from the French during Kargil over Karachi. Boy was it impressive!
Hey what was that ? Cab you elaborate ?

K

Any more info/source about this?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Sep 2009 19:23

Dev A wrote:I have managed to take some photos of the Shornets and SVipers. Put a few on my Flickr in case any one is interested. http://www.flickr.com/photos/bangalorea ... 040001432/

TIA

Devesh

Nice.

One small quibble. The F-16 is not yet a F-16IN Super Viper.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Sep 2009 19:34

AnantD wrote: I did vote for the F18, seems would be more cutting edge from a radar, sensors, ECM POV well into the future.

Actually, both LM and Boeing, have pretty much decided to support whoever wins this contract. This includes the AESA, etc. IIRC the proposed IRST in the F-18 is a LM model.

(Even with the F-22 Boeing has a hand in manufacturing some components.)

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 11 Sep 2009 19:57

F-16IN may have one additional advantage over others -- Early on in the MRCA contest LM had indicated that if it got the order it would transfer the entire F-16 production line to India. This production line is currently coming to an end, and MRCA order (if it gets it) will keep it open for may be an additional 2 years. In the mean time it would begin the transfer of the production line to India.

Has anyone seen further mention of this?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Sep 2009 20:22

All of them are willing to transfer "production" to India. Two exceptions: first is techs that they cannot transfer (US AESA) and second there are technologies that India currently is incapable of absorbing (though the vendor/govt is willing to transfer).

IIRC, both LM and Boeing have stated that they are willing to make India the center for servicing the planes too.

Jaison · Post by **Jaison** » 11 Sep 2009 20:42

The F110-GE-132 has also been selected to power the F-16IN, the Fighting Falcon proposed for India for the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft program. If selected, the F-16IN will be the most advanced F-16 design to date. This aircraft will feature a refueling boom that retracts from the right conformal fuel tank. The boom allows the F-16IN to operate with India Air Force probe-and-drogue style aerial refueling systems similar to those used by the US Navy. The refueling boom is now being flight tested in Fort Worth. Even without aerial refueling, an F-16IN with conformal tanks can fly from Bangalore in the south of India to Leh in the north.

Several other systems distinguish the F-16IN from the Block 60, including an electronic warfare system and radar modes tailored for India, dragchute, datalink, satellite communication, and a helmet-mounted cueing system. The F-16IN will carry the Sniper targeting pod as well.

http://www.wingsoverkansas.com/features ... asp?id=991

It says radar modes tailored for india. does it mean it'll have additional capabilities than a stock blk 60 ?

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 11 Sep 2009 21:22

Dev A wrote:I have managed to take some photos of the Shornets and SVipers. Put a few on my Flickr in case any one is interested. http://www.flickr.com/photos/bangalorea ... 040001432/

TIA

Devesh

Thanks sir.. for the photos... one query though, is that all the photos???

wig · Post by **wig** » 11 Sep 2009 21:36

Vivek K wrote:
Kersi D wrote:Re Rafail, I say we don't need another demonstration of its capabilities after we got one from the French during Kargil over Karachi. Boy was it impressive!

wikipedia has a write up on charles de gaule, the French Navy's aircraft carrier. it suggests that rafales from the carrier performed combat air patrols the area creating a buffer between india and pak. the article is of a french daily named liberation and reprinted on 03 nov 2006 in the chennai based "The Hindu" but in the same breath it mentions that US navy F-18 and F-14 machines also engaged in such missions.
you can read up the article on wikipedia.
maybe ther are some other sources of which i am unaware and which others are aware of
cheerio

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Sep 2009 08:47

Interesting data ? ( via toan )

Internal fuel capacity of world 4th ~ 5th Gen fighters

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 12 Sep 2009 09:04

Interesting data ? ( via toan )Internal fuel capacity of world 4th ~ 5th Gen fighters

He is off on the MiG-35 by a good 700kg. Internal fuel capacity should be ~ 5500kg minimum. He is also assuming the 35 goes up to 12 tons. The MiG-29M on which the 35 is based was 11.6 tons and carried about 5000kg of fuel. However, it must be remembered that the new K and 35 will both have a decent usage of composites which will tend to keep the weight lower. The current MiG-29K for example is specced @ 24500kg!

A solid 2 tons more than the previous version as seen from the BR article (via Y.Gordon or is it Fomin?)!

CM

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 12 Sep 2009 09:09

wig wrote:wikipedia has a write up on charles de gaule, the French Navy's aircraft carrier. it suggests that rafales from the carrier performed combat air patrols the area creating a buffer between india and pak.

That report mentions patrol over the Arabian Sea in 2002 and not during Kargil.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 12 Sep 2009 09:26

Kartik wrote:
Singha wrote:F16 sorties in blr have been a lot more than F18 imo. either the IAF is very serious about it, or they are studying all aspects of it to shaft the pakis later.
They are very impressed by the Block 60, from what I've heard, even before the trials. Got this from a very reliable source.

Could it be range issues? The solah is not as long legged as the 18. While the latest F-18E/Fs have distinctly increased in weight (3 tons), they have had a corresponding increase in internal fuel as well (1.5 tons?). Otoh, the current fat solah (blk 60), which at 10 tons, is a good 2.5 tons heavier than the original A variant still carries the same amount of fuel, approx. 3250kg iirc. So it may have to make more sorties to do the same stuff that a atharah could do in a single sorties.
JMT

CM.