India-China News and Discussion

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 11 Sep 2009 10:18

Rather an odd article from B Raman.

These incursions are in the typical manner in which the Chinese establish and regularise their claim lines. They usually leave behind tell tale marks in the similar fashion as the dogs mark out their territory.

While the TV does overdo their programmes so as to improve their TRP, but these incursions are serious matter.

A wimpish response will only embolden China and they will again to an Aksai Chin on us.

While all efforts should be to avoid confrontation, but then if the push comes to shove, then we should be capable, politically and militarily to tell China where to get off.

The unfortunate part is that both the Govt and the military are aggravating the issue by keeping quite or giving statements that SM Krishna has given and was quoted in a post. Hence, the apprehension in the public mind.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 11 Sep 2009 10:33

Here is some positive action from the GOI/Navy.

India takes up with Myanmar reports of China 'base'

Press Trust of India, Thursday September 10, 2009, Kolkata

India has taken up with Myanmar reports of China having a maritime 'base' in the strategic Coco islands near the Andamans islands, but was told there is no movement of the Chinese Navy in the area, a top Naval officer said on Thursday.....

On reports of Chinese presence in the Coco Islands near the Andamans, Singh said India had taken up the issue with Myanmar which has jurisdiction over the island, but the latter had denied the report.

"We have had a dialogue with the Myanmar government which has clarified there is no Chinese presence in Coco islands," he added.

Coco Islands are a pair of strategically important islands located in the eastern Indian Ocean, politically administered by Myanmar under Yangon Division. Geographically, they are a part of the Andaman Islands archipelago and separated from the North Andaman Island (India) by the 20-km wide Coco Channel.

Chinese Base

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 Sep 2009 11:19

I think that the GOI has been suddenly caught with its pants...sorry dhotis down by China.After years of lulling us into somnolence,while China was building up its massive infrastructure in Tibet,the dragon is now displaying its claws before it breathes fire.For us to match China in the infrastructure it has completed,giving it a huge logistical advantage,the key to success in any campaign especially one in the high Himalayas,will take at least 5 years.Our quickfix strategy is to induct as many helos as we can to offset our disadvantage in terrain and lack of a suitable road network in the region.Stationing a sqd. of Sukhois too to deal with the Chinese threat to my mind has more symbolic value than military,for China also possesses SU-30s.The symbolism however is important,that India will defend any serious "incursion or excursion" from China using every means at its disposal especially its air force which was lamentably kept out of the '62 war leading to our defeat.The news that we are to raise a few more Mountain Divisions for the Army is also a none-too subtle way of sending a message to the Chinese,however in a manner that cannot be viewed as provocative.

This I think is what Mr.Raman wants Indians to realise,that at the moment we are at an acute disadvantage on the ground ,where at best our military efforts will be defensive.With a massive shortfall in artillery and a huge need for lightweight mountain guns,the burden of supporting the Army will then rest with the IAF and thus the renovation of old WW2 airfields and new helipads is taking place.Even these will take a considerable amount of time to restore into modern bases.Therefore,rising tensions with China could provoke a response from them on the ground which we would be hard presssed to counter completely,giving them an advantage after the snow settles down.Perhaps this is what they want,seeing that we have become alive to the danger of their "creeping offensive" and are taking measures to prevent another '62.At this moment in time,we are weak militarily and politically and our border diplomacy has yeilded zero results.It is a time to gird our loins and any countermeasures we take done as silently as possible without alarming he enemy unduly and make him consider a military approach to suit Chinese strategic interests.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 11 Sep 2009 12:10

Philip ji,

With all due respect, the PLA will do whatever gives it advantage. Regardless of what Dilli media says or doesn't say. If they think they can get away with murder, they will jolly well kill.

I would respect Sri Raman's analysis more if he laid bare the plainspeak that India is in jeoppardy coz our equipment and preparation is woefully inadequate. That could have some +ve effects on Dilli perhaps. But berating the media for letting the public know of another kargil in the making does nothing to help the on-ground situ, IMVVHO.

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 11 Sep 2009 18:06

OT,
Last nite i guess i was thinking about the future of Indo-China relations after my last post on this thread.Went asleep.Had this crazy dream.China started moving its troops towards Indian borders both in north and NE.pakistan did the same while ignoring the US chantings.It moved all its troops onto the western border.One worst day for all Indians these two terrorist nations blowed a loud war horn.The same congress leaders ruling the nation were busy transfering thier funds from swiss banks.they were scared that .if BJP or any other party comes into power,they dont even need to force the Swiss banks for details of the account holders.they can easily get all the details as like US and French did and our valuable black money will be screwed which we ,our fathers and grand fathers are saving since independence.
So neglecting the war signs they were busy checking out money and transfering to further safest accounts/places.
South block: All the generals of IA,IN,IAF were fighting with MOD and PM to give them the permission to go on offensive instead of being defensive on both fronts.The reply was....Nah.we are peace loving nation.dont waste your ammo.we are running low on cash in the treasury.After 2 weeks of using the ammo the forces have stockpiled ,war ended with pakistan gaining control of rest of the pakistan and china taking control of whole Arunachal pradesh.We failed to respond with nukes,since our nukes are dud.
Guess what? the leaders are not even worried a bit now.since they lost the major chunck of the Indian land mass and for sure people of India .i.e the true nationalists will beat them to death-- they ran away from the country with all their black money.
Country was in a depriving state.Its a big mess every where.Economy in shambles.Stock markets fell down.people killing all the leaders with no mercy.In a such dreamy situation this Guy came out from the crowds.Saying that he will change the situation,he will bring back the glory.since we been giving chances to every incompetent for the last 70 years, why not give this guy a chance to prove himself? He was the newly elected PM of India.After assigning the position ,he first changed the IPC sections and altered the constitution for the 1000000th time.But all this changes this time are meant for good.In the first 3 months of this ruling corruption went down the hill.tax collections improved far better.In one way country saw the signs of good oldddddddddddd days(say 300 B.C).country stopped importing ,mainly weapons and systems.For the first time the trade difference went green.Armed forces started new recruiting,inducting domestic weapons.R & D reached its peak.Local manufacturing went north in all sectors.OF all the military equipments gained the first place.
Under the Re-Construction project all the stocks were piled up.new bum designs were tested irrespective of International concerns and pressure.since we are the ones who lost the land not them,its all justified.Nukes of over 1 Mt were tested on land,in air and sea.Armed forces were ready for any eventuality now.Time to teach western neighbours a good lesson.Operation Pratikar started on Dec 24th.Starting with para dropping of special units and surgical strikes on key nuclear installations and nuclear stockpiles (information obtained through special agents).In a week Indian forces easily occupied the pakistan upto its western border.The whole territory was annexed in revenge for the loss in the previous war.
Now their master is shining their swords( while Indian swords were drinking blood....lol) and ready to declare another war with India ,this time to free their slave.With the knowledge of full chinese nuclear missile bases,covert operations inside chinese territory went up the hill(highly utilising the Tibetan and Xinxiang natives).One fine day when India felt convenient of arming its nukes to its newly developed ICBM`s it started landing them onto chinese territory with no mercy.Indian nuke subs were hunting down the chinese in their back yard.All their subs went down with no hard job.China agreed to leave tibet and Xinxiang free while Arunachal pradesh and parts of Kashmir to India.Tibetans and Xinxiangans Agreed to unite with India bythemself.with the new territories all together it formed a Union of Republican States of India.....Yawn..... donno then I woke up.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 11 Sep 2009 18:14

jaladipc sir,

You have lot of confidence in the new leader (Chandragupta)...

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 11 Sep 2009 18:24

We can make mistakes like not understanding the significance of "middle yellow river". Raman Sir cannot. He cannot ridicule the word and say "where is the river", or that he knows what "middle kingdom" signifies, but he cannot connect the dots in "middle yellow river". He also demands that we accept some Chinese language experts' explanation that "middle yellow river" signifies nothing.

This is hardly excusable. If maintaining "contacts" "within" are valuable, so be it - we are yet to see the value in it. Moreover, hopefully, such "contacts" are not lulling our illustrious brains into sleep. I am greatly disappointed at the type of analysis shown in the article - I never knew before that this was our so-called exemplary "intelligence". There is no evidence of awareness of cross-subject knowledge necessary for such claimed analysis. To interpret those signs, an intimate knowledge of "Sinification of Marxism", intimate knowedge of the archaeological controversies within China and their role in the ideological foundations of the CCP regime, the nature of politics within the PLA, all should have been simultaneously in the mind.

I hope this is not the general state of affairs in that cloak-and-dagger world from our side.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 Sep 2009 18:51

Raman is trying to hawk the viewpoint that the Chinese artwork is nothing more than the equivalent of Viking graffiti in a British port."Wong -Li screwed Gong-Li" it might harmlessly ready,like the Viking graffiti at Maes Howe in the Orkney islands! Nevertheless,the latter day Vikings,or Mongols,Hans or whatever, have not availed themselves of an Indian visa before their "excursion" into India.Picnics in the hills are great fun I agree,but a feeling of proprietorship then develops as the picnics become regular events and should an Indian tax collector in the form of an Indian platoon come upon the hungry Hans at tea time,we could have a nasty skirmish,bloody noses,etc.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 11 Sep 2009 19:40

China opposes Dalai Lama trip to disputed India state
Friday, September 11, 2009; 8:43 AM

"China expresses strong concern about this information. The visit further reveals the Dalai clique's anti-China and separatist essence," Jiang Yu, the spokeswoman for China's foreign ministry, said in a statement faxed to Reuters.

"China's stance on the so-called 'Arunachal Pradesh' is consistent. We firmly oppose Dalai visiting the so-called 'Arunachal Pradesh'," Jiang said.

yogi · Post by **yogi** » 11 Sep 2009 19:42

China's internet spin doctors

China is using an increasing number of paid "internet commentators" in a sophisticated attempt to control public opinion. These commentators are used by government departments to scour the internet for bad news - and then negate it. They post comments on websites and forums that spin bad news into good in an attempt to shape public opinion. Chinese leaders seem aware that the internet - the only public forum where views can be freely expressed - needs close attention. China's Communist Party leaders have long sought to sway public opinion by controlling what the media can report. That policy was extended to the internet, and many websites are blocked by a system sometimes dubbed the "great firewall of China".

Rumours and opinions
But cyberspace - where views can be expressed instantly and anonymously - is not as easy to control as traditional news outlets. Comments, rumours and opinions can be quickly spread between internet groups in a way that makes it hard for the government to censor. So instead of just trying to prevent people from having their say, the government is also attempting to change they way they think. To do this, they use specially trained - and ideologically sound - internet commentators. They have been dubbed the "50-cent party" because of how much they are reputed to be paid for each positive posting (50 Chinese cents; $0.07; £0.05).

"Almost all government departments face criticism that is beyond their control," said Xiao Qiang, of the University of California at Berkeley. "There is nothing much they can do, other than organise their own spinning teams to do their public relations," said the journalism professor, who monitors China.

Spin machine
A document released by the public security bureau in the city of Jiaozuo in Henan province boasts of the success of this approach. It retells the story of one disgruntled citizen who posted an unfavourable comment about the police on a website after being punished for a traffic offence. One of the bureau's internet commentators reported this posting to the authorities within 10 minutes of it going up. The bureau then began to spin, using more than 120 people to post their own comments that neatly shifted the debate. "Twenty minutes later, most postings supported the police - in fact many internet users began to condemn the original commentator," said the report.

Millions of Chinese people use internet forums and message boards
These internet opinion-formers obviously need to show loyalty and support to the authorities. They also need other skills, as a document from the hygiene department in the city of Nanning in Guangxi province makes clear."[They] need to possess relatively good political and professional qualities, and have a pioneering and enterprising spirit," the document said. They also need to be able to react quickly, it went on.

'Tens of thousands'
The practice of hiring these commentators was started a couple of years ago by local governments which found it hard to control public opinion. They could not rely on Beijing to monitor and block every single piece of news about their localities, so they came up with their own solution. Internet commentators have now become widespread, according to experts. Some estimate that there are now tens of thousands of them. There are also reports that special centres have been set up to train China's new army of internet spin doctors. Their job is more important than it would be elsewhere in the world.

"Politically, the internet is more important in China than in other societies because it's the only public space where people can express themselves," said Professor Xiao. That is a point that has not escaped Chinese President Hu Jintao. When he chatted online in an internet forum earlier this year he said it was important to set up "a new pattern of media guidance" for the internet. China's teams of state-sponsored commentators have a lot of work ahead of them.

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 11 Sep 2009 19:51

shravan wrote:China opposes Dalai Lama trip to disputed India state
Friday, September 11, 2009; 8:43 AM

"China expresses strong concern about this information. The visit further reveals the Dalai clique's anti-China and separatist essence," Jiang Yu, the spokeswoman for China's foreign ministry, said in a statement faxed to Reuters.

"China's stance on the so-called 'Arunachal Pradesh' is consistent. We firmly oppose Dalai visiting the so-called 'Arunachal Pradesh'," Jiang said.

lol..
they did opposed the Lama`s visit to Taiwan.
what happened in the end?

I hope India does better than Taiwan instead of taking frightening pills.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 11 Sep 2009 20:44

^OMG, what will Sri B Raman say now about he friendly tone of chini media, I wonder. Or perhaps thats OK because the chinis are doing it?

Lets stop deluding ourselves that something we say or do might provoke the PLA. No sir. They're way too far sighted and proactive for that. They don't react to Indian actions as much as get us to react to their shenanigans.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 11 Sep 2009 21:29

yogi wrote:China's internet spin doctors

China is using an increasing number of paid "internet commentators" in a sophisticated attempt to control public opinion. These commentators are used by government departments to scour the internet for bad news - and then negate it. They post comments on websites and forums that spin bad news into good in an attempt to shape public opinion. Chinese leaders seem aware that the internet - the only public forum where views can be freely expressed - needs close attention. China's Communist Party leaders have long sought to sway public opinion by controlling what the media can report. That policy was extended to the internet, and many websites are blocked by a system sometimes dubbed the "great firewall of China".

In India the equivalent spin doctors the "secular" commentrators, "Secular" media and "secular" social enforcers.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Sep 2009 22:49

Which was the Indian TV channel that had the two China experts and haranguing anchor? And is there a vidoe link for us to see and make up our mind?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Sep 2009 04:19

a different take on the article that led to a big hoolaboo.

link

However if any country can actually get Bengal to move its gigantic ass and do something significant like declare its independence from India it has to be China, efficient enough to sell low-grade medicine in Africa putting “Made in India” stickers on it [Me no foreign me Cheenaman], lead-laden toys all around the world and supply nuclear material to Pakistan.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 12 Sep 2009 04:42

Shree B Raman is conveying some information on what is troubling the chinese govt - a gradual lowering of tolerance towards Chinese antics by Indian public.

And he is asking the question on Yellow Middle River to evoke an enquiry amongst Indians, maybe? We are not sure his source is not aware of its in/significance. He doesnt say he doesnt know its meaning too. A rebuttal to Shree B Raman would be that the character for Zhong(square with a slash through middle) is a well recognized symbol of anything to do with China (and its culture). If an Indian soldier left an Ashoka Chakra on their rocks (followed by some harmless pop-cliche), I dont think they will take it calmly and think the soldier is conveying he is a dharma-rooted chap.

It is not necessarily a bad thing to go on a frenzy - we are a highly scrutable people and to get attention in a democracy, we need that.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 12 Sep 2009 15:35

India should summon the Chinese ambassador and give him a good dose of Tibetan chanting and some choice verbiage in the local slang from a mustachioed hijra ! Feed him some chillie hot Andhra food,accompanied with a strong laxative in his coffee and let him get the "Delhi Belly".The lesson will be velly well learnt.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 12 Sep 2009 20:20

China objects to Dalai visit to Arunachal Pradesh

Beijing/New Delhi, Sep 11 (PTI) China has objected to the proposed trip of Dalai Lama to Arunachal Pradesh in November but India has made it clear that the Tibetan spiritual leader was free to travel anywhere in the country.

The Dalai Lama intends to travel to Arunachal in the middle of November, which the Tibetan government-in-exile says has nothing to do with politics.

Commenting on the development, Chinese Foreign Ministry voiced "strong concern", saying it "further reveals the Dalai clique's anti-China and separatist essence".

Foreign Ministry spokesperson Jiang Yu said "We firmly oppose Dalai visiting the so-called 'Arunachal Pradesh'."

When contacted, Chinese Embassy in Delhi drew attention to the statement made by the country's Foreign Ministry on the issue and did not go further.

India felt the Chinese objections are unwarranted and the Tibetan leader is free to travel anywhere in the country.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 13 Sep 2009 02:05

This time, India won't stop Dalai Lama

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 13 Sep 2009 02:16

From the TOI article

China too is beginning to realise the dangers of letting media "nationalism" fly. In a recent editorial on India-China ties, the official China Daily also criticized Chinese media for stoking antagonism.

B Raman was protesting Indian media's "nationalism". The Chinese need to know that there will be a reaction for all the anti Indian actions they take.

What does B Raman want? India and the media keep quiet regardless of Chinese provocation. Just so that Chinese will not be happy.

What has the policy of keeping Chinese happy bought for India so far?

rajkhalsa · Post by **rajkhalsa** » 13 Sep 2009 09:34

x-posting

United Arab Emirates, China, India and a plane load of “weapons”

Wednesday, September 09, 2009It was reported on September 5th 2009, that a China-bound UAE air force C-130 Hercules was detained at India’s Kolkata airport after the discovery of arms and explosives during a routine refuel stop. (here)

After being detained for 72 hours the C-130 and its 9 crew members were released and on their way to their original destination of Xiangyang China after the UAE government issued an apology; blaming the omission in the cargo declaration on a technical error. (here) Since the cargo was sealed during the episode, speculation concerning the content was abound, ranging from illegal US Harpoons, (here) to US Maverick or French MICA missiles to Pakistan. (here) (here) In other words, people were just guessing.

Back in June 2009, Norinco’s Kunlung Company shipped an entire LD-2000 air-defense system to UAE via a rented Russian An-124 for evaluation (here). After 22 days, the evaluation was considered a success, with a final live-fire demo in front of the PLA’s defense attaché and other high ranking UAE officers.

While the detained UAE C-130 may not contain the returning LD-2000, it must be noted that like Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, the UAE has an active military exchange program with China, a fact missed by many pundits. In that light, it should not be a surprise to see military equipment in transit to China from UAE. Maybe next time someone will double check the paperwork and train the crew in simultaneous winking when embarking on such clandestine operations.

UAE C-130 Hercules at Kolkata airport

LD-2000

Like the land-based version of the naval CIWS Type-730, the LD-2000 combines a seven barreled 30mm Gatling gun with 6 TY-90 SAMs. The system is likely to have a similar overall capability to the US C-RAM but with extended range, thanks to the 6km reach of the TY-90s. However, rather than just anti-mortar defense the LD-2000 is more likely employed for point defense of key installations and facilities from cruise missiles, PGMs and fast jets at low altitude.

According to Norinco, LD2000 can engage cruise missiles with an RCS of 0.1 m2, up to a maximum speed of M2.0. The system is also claimed to have a multiple-target engagement capability and be able to operate in an electronic counter counter-measure environment.

Photo of the LD-2000 under eval in UAE.

Photos of LD-2000 in China.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Sep 2009 09:52

^^^
lots of spin in that article !

While the detained UAE C-130 may not contain the returning LD-2000,{so all these snapshots and graphics of LD-2000 are irrelevant and meant for obfuscation of the real issues ! } it must be noted that like Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, the UAE has an active military exchange program with China, a fact missed by many pundits.{far from being missed, this is the starting point of people's analysis ! the point that needs to be emphasised is that china is a supplier to the UAE not the other way around. for servicing and upgradation of existing equipment it is much more likely that the chinese will bring the parts and do it on site, rather than flying whole cargo to china and back.} In that light, it should not be a surprise to see military equipment in transit to China from UAE. {the reverse journey won't have been surprising but this one certainly is.}

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 13 Sep 2009 18:13

csharma wrote:From the TOI article

China too is beginning to realise the dangers of letting media "nationalism" fly. In a recent editorial on India-China ties, the official China Daily also criticized Chinese media for stoking antagonism.
B Raman was protesting Indian media's "nationalism". The Chinese need to know that there will be a reaction for all the anti Indian actions they take.

What does B Raman want? India and the media keep quiet regardless of Chinese provocation. Just so that Chinese will not be happy.

What has the policy of keeping Chinese happy bought for India so far?

Charr, we and our leaders are like this onleeeeee.
We were being taught like this.You slap me on one side,I will show you my other side.

You cede my Akasai China,Tawang is free or else whole Kashmir.eitherways .......

Leaders behave as if the whole country is their dads property.They take decisions like as if we are taking decision to sell our homes/lands.
Who is going to change their monarchy attitude? while people like this B Raman were further adding oil to their claims of monarchy.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 13 Sep 2009 19:45

and now this
http://www.ndtv.com/news/world/china_ac ... spying.php

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 13 Sep 2009 20:17

nelson wrote:and now this
http://www.ndtv.com/news/world/china_ac ... spying.php

One quick question?

IF Chinese did have caught the Indian plane with Indian military cargo, the for sure did have scanned the whole cargo right from rivet to the high end mission computers.
They should be glad that Indians failed to do so.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 13 Sep 2009 20:50

There are many threads about China. Here I will post about the way India is portrayed in China by media. Adminullah can merge this thread with other China related threads if it has to be so.

Chinese about RAW

India's China spying continued fall in love with female teachers have been the headquarters for emergency recall
2008
来源：新华网 Source: Xinhua
May 6, India and Pakistan, a number of media reported that India's largest intelligence agencies - Research and Analysis Wing stationed in Beijing, China, the responsible person fall in love with Chinese women teachers had been the headquarters for emergency recall. According to Indian media say, this is another one in India in recent years, high-level spy fell into the "sweet trap." 那么，事实真相究竟如何？ Well, the truth today?

Indian intelligence officer, fell in love with a Chinese-speaking

。 According to Pakistan, "Dawn" and "The Times of India" and other media reported in February this year, the Indian Research and Analysis Wing in Beijing, Manmohan Sharma, head suddenly called home, at the headquarters office Xian Zhi is no longer assignment.

。 Senior intelligence officer for the unexpectedly called back because the Indian Research and Analysis Wing tight-lipped until recently were able to Exposure: Sharma in Beijing, and his English teacher - a beautiful Chinese female college students fall in love.。 Research and Analysis Wing of the counter-espionage officials believe that the Chinese teacher "may be spying in China," Sharma "might" last year's Sino-Indian border talks the Indian side of the cards revealed that the Chinese side.。 In this case, the anti-espionage agency requested Sharma emergency return home "to report on his work." After returning home under review, anti-spy agency did not Daizhe Sharma become a "Chinese spy" any evidence, but refused to leave the country came alive again in his office.

。 According to Indian media say the Indian Embassy diplomats and spies in recent years, often caught in "pink trap.。 For example, in early 2000, a young diplomat in Beijing on account of the Indian and Chinese women teachers fall in love and called home, transfer to the domestic academic and research institutions; in October 2007, Research and Analysis Wing senior agent in Hong Kong, Ravi Warner is said to occur because of the relationship between a Chinese woman was out of Hong Kong. I did not expect is that the woman actually catch up to Colombo, the cohabitation with any connection with him. 调查分析局干脆将纳尔从科伦坡调回国不再外派。 Research and Analysis Wing simply will no longer be transferred back to Kitchener from Colombo assignment.

India 007 overseas often fall in love with

”。 For the latest exposure of the files matter, Indian media claimed that the "surprising" because the Indian agent sent to spy overseas, "often fell in love."

。 In the last century, the early 90s, India's naval attache in Pakistan with a military hospital in Karachi, a nurse who falls in love.。 The military officer on trial after being recalled after the resignation of the country. 。 There are reports that the naval attache started claiming to want to recruit women in Pakistan when the Indian spy, I did not expect was unexpectedly threaten Pakistan Inter-Services Intelligence Agency, asking him to return to New Delhi to the Pakistani Navy Command providing intelligence work.

。 However, the history of Indian intelligence fall into "pink trap" to be the most famous case of Research and Analysis Wing agent KV · Wulikeli Krishnan. 。 This person is responsible for Tamil Eelam in Sri Lanka to deal secretly helped the LTTE is responsible for India's "top secret action.。 However, he fell in love with a Sri Lankan air hostesses, flight attendants and that the name is Sri Lanka's female spy, resulting in a number of LTTE arms ship ambush 。 This person to reach a peace agreement between India and Sri Lanka before being arrested, sentenced to jail for many years.

。 "India Post" also revealed that, in fact, the first "pink trap" occurred in the Nehru reign. 一。 An Indian diplomats stationed in the Soviet Union, the KGB spy into account beauty, was photographed with his beautiful photographs, and then asked him to provide intelligence.。 He hastened to the ambassador to all, while the ambassador to report directly to the Jawaharlal Nehru.。 Did not think Nehru said with a laugh, the young diplomat, "after careful" it wants to.

Indian spy to China when the target

”。 Just happened to this "pink trap" in fact there is no conclusive argument, because the current understanding of the situation alone simply can not conclude that the Chinese women teachers is the "Chinese spies." 不过，这件。 However, this matter Daoshi revealed a problem, and that is the Indian intelligence agencies have Chinese as "the main goal."

印度调查分析局(Research andAnalysisWing简称RAW)隶 India's Research and Analysis Wing (Research andAnalysisWing referred to as RAW) attached to the Defense Intelligence Agency, is India's most powerful and largest intelligence agencies, primarily the implementation of foreign intelligence missions, has collected more than the other's political, military, economic, religious and other information, but it also with the instigation, subversion and a certain degree of anti-spyware task.

。 Research and Analysis Wing currently has about 7,000 people around the world with more than 70 intelligence stations, major cities in India has branches.

Last year, India's influential, "Hindustan Times" reported that the Research and Analysis Wing in the newspaper the name of "Cabinet Secretariat, a department" on the cover recruitment of staff. ，。 Candidates will be required to be proficient in Chinese, Tibetan, Nepali, Bengali, Burmese or English, the young people, monthly basic wage of 1 million rupees (about 2100 yuan), "there will be opportunities to work overseas and generous subsidies. 。 Such a wide range of intelligence agencies conduct an open recruitment is rare, can be seen in India in recent years, attention to intelligence and to focus on strengthening intelligence ranks determination.。 Of course, this is India's wish to become a world-class power ambitions echoed.

。 Research and Analysis Wing, India's main research objects are Pakistan, China, followed by Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Myanmar and Europe and the United States and other developed countries.。 Investigation and Analysis Bureau, India using various means and ways to collect, spying on China's military and political intelligence business and other areas.

。 There is also a subordinate unit of the Bureau of attention, and that is special border forces. 。 The force was first CIA trained "Article 22 of force" training Khampas engaged in anti-Han Chinese and Tibetan people's activities, the latter through the reorganization of the Indian soldiers, and go to replace the Investigation and Analysis Bureau. Special Border Force headquarters is located in Uttar Pradesh, tin Oillic mountains near saharanpur the Saersawa, has received the Israeli intelligence organization "Mossad" agents to guide training, which now number about 8,000, has been in China and India the border area of China is responsible for target reconnaissance. 本报特约记者/卢琛>>>>>>本网特稿 PRC / Ben Wang Lu Chen >>>>>> feature

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 13 Sep 2009 21:00

India's spy satellites focused their attention on the Sino-Indian border China's military mobilization

http://www.chinareviewnews.com 2008-02-29 13:44:40 http://www.chinareviewnews.com 2008-02-29 13:44:40

。 "Drawing Star" -1 number is India is currently one of the main rely on spy satellites.
。 Assessment agency in Hong Kong, February 29 Xinhua / Indian Army Chief of Staff, stated publicly that the Chinese border through the real-time satellite monitoring of trends.

。 International Herald Tribune article a freelance writer, said since last year, China and India in the disputed region "invasion" of the incident became the topic of the Indian media often refer to. 。” This seems to show Indian Bing not "powerless", February 24 In an interview with the Cable News Network (CNN) interview with the Indian Army Chief General Deepak Kekapuer said, "satellite technology has allowed India to across the line of actual control to observe the Chinese side's every move. no matter which occurs when the mobilization of the army's move, the Indian army have enough time to the face of such challenges. "

Claims to be "real time" monitoring of the PLA

” In order to "alleviate the people's concerns about China's military movements," Kapoor stated, "Despite China's more worried about the rapid mobilization of the armed forces, but in fact, if they deploy the armed forces, we were able to obtain real-time through satellite images."

This is the first time in recent years, the Indian Army generals publicly "leaked" India is using satellite to monitor Chinese military movements, Bing and also used the "real time" monitoring of the word, showing the Indian side the height of the satellite reconnaissance capabilities, "self-confidence." 调。 But in the past, for their own space spying program, the Indian side has always been low-key.

Space spy network began to take shape

。 And the United States and Russia compared to other traditional space powers, India's spy satellite program got a late start. 。 Prior to 2001, the Indian army has not yet own a dedicated reconnaissance satellites that rely mainly on civilian remote sensing satellite (resolution of 2.5 ~ 5.8 m) to obtain information on sensitive areas.

(TES)。 October 22, 2001, India's first photo-reconnaissance satellite was successfully launched, "Technology Experiment Satellite" (TES). The satellite resolution of 1 meter, mainly for India and the India-Pakistan border surveillance. 2005年，)。 In 2005, India has launched two civilian-military satellite "mapping Star" -1 number (resolution 2.5 m) and "mapping Star" -2 number (resolution of 1 meter).

。 In the independent research and development at the same time, Indian spy satellite program also received the support of Israel and other countries. India is negotiating to buy from Israel resolution of less than 1 m Eros-5 satellite, Bing seek Israel's advanced synthetic aperture radar technology. According to the plan, the Indian army in 2007 to 2012, built by the TES series of six satellites, spy satellite system that, Bing is expected to increase the image resolution to 0.5 meters.

Not yet covered by surveillance blind spots

In the TES's first spy satellites after the launch, even though India's spy satellite technology made great progress, but the Indian Army Chief of Staff of the so-called "real time" monitoring the Chinese military's argument, but it is worth scrutiny.

Technically, the Indian spy satellite has a resolution of 1 meter, Bing does not mean that satellites can "see" the size of 1 m on the ground objects.。 It is said that the size of 1 m on the ground objects, in the satellite photos can be rendered as an image point. 。 Objects are usually shown in satellite pictures, 5 to 10 points in order to be to distinguish contours. 。 In other words, resolution of 1 meter satellites are actually only able to "see" 5-10 m size of the object.

。 India is only 34 satellites in orbit, and the United States and Russia 12-24 compared to the scale, there are still many difficult to cover blind spots. 扣。 Fog, smoke, clouds, especially the complex Sino-Indian border mountainous plateau environment effects will be greatly reduced its detection. 。 Meanwhile, the reconnaissance satellites orbit the earth for a week, 90-105 minutes, for a particular region is only about 10 minutes each time reconnaissance, returning the image must also be located in central New Delhi's defense image processing and interpretation of surveillance information at least several hours or even a few days delay.

。 Indian executives have said recently: "India needs at least 200 unmanned aerial vehicles, to meet the north-eastern border surveillance needs." It seems that the Indian Army from the "real time" monitoring of the Sino-Indian border is still far from the goal.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 13 Sep 2009 21:13

What Baidu says about Arunchal Pardesh....................

http://baike.baidu.com/view/360029.htm

Please run this on Google translator. Over all level of translation is very poor .........so bear with it.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 13 Sep 2009 21:32

Indian army is actually very much afraid of China

People on the Indian army is probably the deepest impression in India that seem endless large-scale arms purchases by. Since the twentieth century, the eighties, India's foreign military purchases and the gradual increase in the size of an attempt to purchase through a large number of advanced weapons abroad, so that the Indian army quickly modernized. 。 In recent years, India almost every year on the international arms market, the biggest buyer. 。 Its arsenal, has come from the former Soviet Union (later Russia), the United States, France, Sweden, United Kingdom, the Czech Republic, Israel and other countries manufacture of weapons is like a million in the country of weapons fair.京。 Through the years a large number of imports, India now has a considerable number of advanced weapons, the Air Force currently has three generations or three generations of semi-advanced fighter aircraft, advanced the number of armed helicopters have been ahead of China; its navy already has an aircraft carrier; India Also in 1998, conducted a nuclear test, officially became members of the nuclear club; In addition, India's Agni series of missiles have been equipped with force to achieve its maximum range of 2,500 km, is claimed can hit the Chinese capital Beijing.

。 On the surface it seems the Indian army seems to already have a modern army should have everything, it is already quite powerful.。 Britain's military commentators say that the Indian Navy and Air Force strength is second to none in Asia, the Indian army has become a relatively large force, branch more complete, more advanced equipment, training, compared with well-established, strong combat capability has a certain level of modernization of army. 。 India also has a considerable number of people who hold the same view, in the meet that they are exceptionally strong sense of national pride at the same time, India has been eager to expand their circle of influence, not only to become a hegemon in South Asia, but also to enter the Indian Ocean, to become the master of the Indian Ocean. 。 At the same time, India, some of the politicians and the military hard-liners also repeatedly clamored for revenge to China and give China a little color and look.

。 Speaking of Sino-Indian relations, it is necessary traced back to the 1962 border conflict that field.。 At that time, India, China hold the attitude of contempt, in the strength of the two countries and combat effectiveness, as well as the international situation, a series of misjudgments, India border dispute provoked outright, but was slap in the face of China in the east and west line of a comprehensive defeat .避。 At that time even considering the withdrawal of the Government of India, New Delhi, south to escape.。 As a result of factors, the Chinese army did not follow up the victory after the defeat, but to withdraw to the pre-war line of actual control, China is playing a victory Quemo reap the benefits. 。 But this failed to Indians unforgettable, in the subsequent decades obsessed, and always looking for the opportunity to avenge。 Sino-Indian relations have been relatively tight, the sworn enemy of India, Pakistan, China is a staunch ally, overtly or covertly, to financing and supporting Pakistan against India; India is not only China, southern Tibet Zhanzhao 9 million square kilometers, but also semi-public support DL groups in activities of splitting China。 The relationship between the two countries really have the taste of the cold war in South Asia.

。 India is equipped with large quantities of advanced weapons, and China would like to stretch for anything lost that year to find wherever he goes back, it seems that there is a certain truth. 印 Public opinion in India has also repeatedly expressed this tendency, long ago, Indian Foreign Minister publicly declared that Tawang area is the territory of India is a serious provocation against China.。 India's mouth in this regard is very hard, and whenever they cry with the Chinese use of force, it seems that they could be sure of success that the resort to them.。 However, the Indian army to deploy in the Sino-Indian border situation, but it is assumed a defensive stand, as if preparing for an attack in China.

First of all, according to Pakistani sources, in recent years in India near the Pakistan-Indian border area excavation of two large-scale military tunnels, used as a missile bases and stationed themselves facilities, its equipment, missile has a range of 750 kilometers, to combat the scope of for the Chinese territory, and Pakistan-Tibet highway and the only land route - Karakoram - Gilgit road。 This is obviously a defensive posture, people think of the seventies for the defense of China's military invasion of a neighboring country the north, in the Northeast and North China to build military installations in history. 。 Secondly, the Indian military strong demand in the near Sikkim's "finger" area equipped with a large number of light tanks to cope with the People's Liberation Army. 。 Light tank battle terrain is suitable for low mountains and hilly areas, which is the terrain near the border in India, indicating the Indian Army is in the homeland defense within the tank battle as the hypothetical target. 第三，。 Third, India's recent near China's Tibet Jiasitanbang a large-scale desert tank warfare exercises, claiming that although the goal is to capture the Tibetan Plateau, a fatal blow to China, but actually obvious in the exercise homeland defense, because the Tibetan Plateau The geographical environment is not suitable for large-scale mechanized warfare.

。 A careful analysis, we can see that: If China and India along the border took place in the relatively large-scale armed conflict, or India suffer more, it is shouting outside to cover up its weakness, is to ensure that they have acquired a vested interest .

First, the Sino-Indian border between the two countries up to 4090 kilometers, is divided into eastern, central and western three paragraphs, which is the eastern section of the most controversial, and is most likely to conflict areas.。 If there occurs a partial violent conflict, it should be basically the core of the theater in its range of 400-500 kilometers, the two sides of the Air Force and in the short-range missile force can effectively attack other targets within the range.。 Drawn from the border to China in 500 km range is essentially snow-covered plateau or the Gobi desert, the larger point of the city is Lhasa, to the designated 500 km in India, then all entered the densely populated and economically developed areas, Calcutta is also within striking range. 。 The two sides Huou even scored the other territory, China is also irrelevant if Chi Diankui, while India may suffer a loss disaster.

。 Second, China's recent relations with Myanmar Gaode hot, just like a strategic partnership to the development trend of China's economic and military strength to strength in Myanmar is also a great penetration.一。 South-east of Bangladesh and India, although the strength of incompetence, but this was previously known as East Pakistan, a small country is clearly better relations with China, is China's arms exports, one of the major buyers. 。 China one way or another eastern Burma, south-east of Bangladesh, northwest Pakistan, has become India's double-teamed on the trend. 。 In particular, India's easternmost territory, strategic posture is more detrimental to the long and narrow Siliguri alone the isthmus with the main connection, narrowest point only 20 kilometers. 一 Once war breaks out, China sent a strong army regiment from Sikkim's "fingers" to attack, combined with the strength of the direction of possession of South Burma on the Indian army in the region in a strategic encirclement, where the Indian Army has become Wengzhongzhibie 4This is the obvious fact that India on tenterhooks, insecurity.

。 Thirdly, although India has deployed along the border a lot of fighters and in the short-range missiles, missile-strike capability, but it lags far behind that in China. China's trump card is the sophisticated weapons of the Second Artillery Force, the integrated command capabilities of China's missiles, combat power, mobility, accuracy and equipment, the number of full ahead of India in this regard, India has a level worse than China.，那还打什么？ Therefore, if a war breaks out, India has been very much afraid of the strong against Chinese missiles, and its own missile is very disappointing, and often launches out of control, even where the missile landed are not quite sure, it is also playing what? 。 China has recently equipped with some of the region in the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau mobility strong DF-15 missiles, that India scared unbearable in a hurry to strengthen its anti-missile intercept systems, from Israel ordered 18 sets of "Si el del" air defense missile systems in order to enrich defense capabilities.

第四、1962 Fourthly, the 1962 defeat to India was full of Chinese army's combat effectiveness of awe, until now, although he is still fighting for their very self-confident army. Although both the number of troops on the border areas of India have been significantly more than China, but it is still not at ease, and more recently decided to increase the 2 Mountain Division (one for each division 15000 people) to the Sino-Indian border garrison, and give priority to replace the border Mountain Division the old weapons.

。 Fifth, China's military is developing fairly rapidly the process of modernizing and strengthening the military clearly beyond India's earlier expectations. 费。 Into the twenty-first century, China's comprehensive national strength has greatly improved under the premise of a substantial increase in military spending each year. 这本来是 This was originally to compensate for the shortfall in the original, but once established with great difficulty to make India a little edge and quickly evaporate.。 Moreover, China's road to go is to introduce advanced weapons research and production with its own combination of roads, self-ability, and military system, self-contained, if there is weapons and war damage, China's re-supply capacity significantly better than in India.。 India is too dependent on imports, their poor industrial manufacturing capacity can only be a loss of one would no longer buy, obviously can not afford to bring the consumption of high-intensity combat.

。 In summary, the Indian military confrontation in the Sino-Indian obvious disadvantag采。 So, although it continued to issue rhetoric, the domestic "elites" has repeatedly encouraged people to belittle China, but he was fooling with it, i, in fact, including heart, many of which the Indian military are well aware of the truth, be wiser to take the defensive. But India also did not give up, it is expected after 10 years of efforts to complete the overall transformation of the armed forces to effectively contain China. 。 But you can say: Both China and India is like a martial arts person, China's robust than those in India itself, some, martial arts are better.。 China has practiced internal forces (economic development, establish a sound scientific research and industrial systems) further training away from home work (development and purchase of advanced weapons), so a solid martial arts to improve rapidly; India chose to practice martial arts Xiepai, poor internal forces, external Home work Daoshi improve quickly, quite scary.。 But both a hands-on, master Xiepai poor internal forces, non-vomiting blood to death can not be beaten.

。 In this contest, the Chinese position has always been a relatively calm, down to earth, according to the priorities of their needs to a reasonable arrangement.。 While India Xinfuqizao impractical to engage in an arms race with China and make this a solid family property is not all shake out to buy weapons. 。 Current update cycle of weapons quickly, those who bought his belongings in the past 10 years, then falling behind, and his inability to produce, but also bulk purchase.India has now been dragged gasping, and being so, do not fight, he may vomit blood to death

军情聚焦 Military focus

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 13 Sep 2009 21:34

One of the effective ways to counter Chinese is to keep the SFF ready to go into Tibet as soon as conflict starts.

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 13 Sep 2009 22:16

Latest gem from B Raman

http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/papers ... r3406.html

A positive change in the attitude of the Indian civil society to China can come about only if this Indian perception of Chinese malevolence is lessened.

The question is whether it is just a perception or reality? What does Mr Raman have to say about that.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 14 Sep 2009 00:25

Chinese military expert accuses India of spying on UAE plane

So not a random finding of OMG weapons on China bound plane!

Crafty Indians sending messages that China is under minute surveillance.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 14 Sep 2009 00:28

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Need ... 001137.cms

terrorists or freedom fighters, you be the judge. Is this the beginning of the end a la CCCP or is it merely pinpricks? Uigharistan, Tibet, Indian frontier-come on Mongols get off your yasses.

animesharma · Post by **animesharma** » 14 Sep 2009 00:55

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 007108.cms
Construction by Chinese army across Karakoram: J&K report

and

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/army- ... ed/516468/
Army wants patrol curbs along China border lifted

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 14 Sep 2009 03:02

INDIA-CHINA: THE FROZEN VISION OF 1962
By B.Raman

While speaking at a meeting organised by the Indo-Japan Chamber of Commerce and Industry at Chennai on August 17,2009, I had called for an India-China-Japan trialogue on maritime security----initially at the non-Governmental level to be upgraded subsequently to the Governmental level. The text of my talk may be seen at
http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/papers ... r3361.html

2. On September 8,2009, worried by the likely consequences of the mounting anti-China demonisation campaign indulged in by some members of our community of strategic analysts, I wrote an article titled " India-China: Dangerous Hysteria", which is available at http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/papers ... r3398.html .

So is this part of the now famous British-American line of back-channel dialogue to prepare the modern instruments of political control, the media and other opinion makers to prepare the grounds? Why does he have to spell it out so openly? Does it mean the back-channel is not being allowed to be active?

3.I was amazed and disturbed by the kind of vituperative mail I got from many Indian readers of my article. All sorts of abuses were hurled at me----" senile", "confused", " a dunce", " bought over by the Chinese" etc etc. The comments of the strategic analysts, which triggered off my article, and the vituperative mail, which I received in response to my article, only confirmed my fears that large sections of our civil society and strategic analysts' community continue to be caught in the mental quagmire of 1962 and are unable to rid themselves of the frozen vision of 1962. They are not prepared to look at China through glasses of 2009.

This is interesting. It shows lack of political intuition. He is not used to digesting abuses and flicking them off. Now how much of that lack of political intuition is contributing to the policy recommendations about China?

4. After I wrote my controversial article, I happened to attend an interesting interaction with a distinguished Taiwanese, who was educated in a prestigious US university and who is a good friend of India.One of the members of the audience asked him for his assessment of Sino-Indian relations. He almost expressed identical thoughts when he said that he was worried to note that Indian thinking and reflexes on China continue to be governed by the memories of the 1962 experience and that Indian analysts, when writing on China, continued to look behind rather than forward. He pointed out how millions of Taiwanese had died at the hands of China's People's Liberation Army (PLA) and how millions of Chinese had died at the hands of the Japanese . Despite this, instead of continuing to nurse suspicions and fears arising from the past, Taiwan had considerably improved its relations with China and Beijing and Tokyo are in the process of improving their bilateral relations despite their continuing dispute over the East China Sea islands. He felt it was time for India to rid itself of the bitter memories of the past and start looking to the future in its relations with China.

Why such a simplistic representation of the Taiwanese situation? The Taiwan political spectrum is split between two opposing groups. One is in favour of reuniting with mainland PRC. The other opposes it. And the funny thing in that is that the group tilting towards PRC is the party of the original founders - the KMT - the most die-hard enemies of the communists. There is a lot of significance in this apparent political irony that has wider implications for the region. Why represent the Taiwanese scenario as such a homogeneous bloc to buttress a pet theory?

5. When he asked me for my views on Sino-Indian relations, I replied that there are three components in India----the political leadership and the serving bureaucracy, the business class and the civil society, including the community of strategic analysts and retired bureaucrats. While the political leadership, the serving bureaucracy and the business class want to be forward-looking, large sections of the civil society and strategic analysts continue to be chained to the past and tend to discourage any forward movement. As a result, the relations are moving at variable speeds---- a little faster in the case of the political leadership,the serving bureaucracy and the business class and much slower in the case of the civil society and the non-governmental strategic analysts' community.

Ah! here it all comes out in a single torrential outburst! So "the political leadership, serving bureaucracy, the business class" are the only ones who look forward. Now if a large civil society is not looking "forward", then it should imply that their definitions of "forward" do not coincide. Now why is that? Since definitions of "forwardness" appear to dramatically change from "serving" to "retired" status, does it mean that by default "bureaucray" is not forward looking, and they are simply coopted into the whatever current "forward" vision that the politicians and the business classes happen to have at any given instant? Since apart from the bureaucracy, politicians+business class always seem to be forward looking, does it simply represent the possibility that they are one and the same class and not two different groups? Or even worse, what if the current interests of one group dictates what the other group must think? Now can the small group of politicians+business class be really be thinking of the interests of the large majority or their own group interests? What if all this forward-looking is driven by instantaneous benefits to each group - power for politicians and profits for businesses? How can we be sure thats uch forward-looking really is for the benefit of the larger society?

7. To cite from the remarks of Saran while addressing a seminar on Security and Development at Port Blair in the Andamans on September 5: India should actively participate in shaping an emerging economic and security architecture in the region in close collaboration with all stakeholders, including China. This arrangement should be open, inclusive and loosely structured.... India needs a nuanced policy (towards China) that builds upon possible areas of congruence and deals firmly, though prudently, with situations where interests are threatened. There is no inevitability of conflict with China. There is enough space in the region and beyond for both China and India to be ascendant.

This is where it starts to unravel. What are the concrete grounds to show that emerging economic and security architecture has convergent elements for the two countries? What sort of economic collaboration is possible with China for mutual benefit for India? Items like fake medicienss with Indian stamp - just make it all legal with a formal trade license from India? What are the business regimes in place in PRC that Indian businesses can work with? Is he at all aware of how the Chinese economy runs, and what is the degree of central control in the economy - and the recent trends of gradual removal of controlling power of non-Chinese in the business sphere? Can he show a single instance apart from suppression of pirates at the Gulf of Aden, that at least overtly shows convergence of security interests? It is apalling to see such playing down of the basic features of the military-party-dictatorship in power in PRC!

8. To cite from the remarks of Menon during a lecture at the National Maritime Foundation of New Delhi on September 11: China and other States can choose to be part of the solution rather than that of the problem. "My question is, therefore, if energy and trade flows and security are the issues, why not begin discussing collective security arrangements among the major powers concerned? "

Ah, wonder of wonders and question of questions! The very fact that such a question has to be asked, shows, that countries have refused to be part of the solution. Now any good thinking on why? That is of course not for the plate - for it will reveal much more politically complicated but easy to understand from the human psychological viewpoint reasons as to "why".

9. The refreshing views expressed by the two recently-retired Foreign Secretaries, which are unlikely to be shared by the brigade of compulsive demonisers of China in the strategic analysts' community and in our media, have come in the wake of changing perceptions of China in countries such as Australia, the US and Japan, which were as paranoiac about China till recently as we are even now. There is a growing realisation in recent months that the cause of international and regional peace and security might be served better by treating China as a possible security partner than as a security threat.

10. One noticed this change of attitude first in Australia after Kevin Rudd became the Prime Minister after defeating John Howard and his party. He has made Australia distance itself from multilateral security mechanisms such as the five-power naval exercise of 2007 by the navies of the US, Australia, India, Japan and Singapore on the ground that such mechanisms cause unnecessary concerns to China. One could also see a change --- from compulsive suspicion to looking for areas of better understanding--- in the attitude of the administration of President Barack Obama towards China. This change was recently reflected in a proposal for a joint naval exercise involving the navies of the US, Australia and China. Some reputed Australian non-Governmental analysts have also been saying in the margins of international seminars on maritime security that though China might not be an Indian Ocean power, it has legitimate interests and concerns relating to the Indian Ocean and hence it should be associated in any dialogue mechanism pertaining to the Indian Ocean. In a seminar attended by me, I even heard an Australian non-governmental analyst arguing that, as a confidence-building measure, India should take the initiative in proposing the inclusion of China in dialogues regarding security in the Indian Ocean.

11.Yukio Hatoyama, the new Prime Minister of Japan, also thinks differently from his predecessors in respect of China and is likely to initiate moves to improve Japan's relations with China.He believes that China should be made part of the solution to the security problems of the region instead of being suspected as an important cause of the problems.

This is missing the game altogether. This is a temporary strategic feint after the formal military-economic global domination formula of the Anglo-Saxon has suffered a setback. Each of the countries mentioned above have very strong ties with the Brits and the Americans. They will not do anything without signals emanating from kingdom and Washington. The British hand underlying this should be particularly explored. They had been keen in roping in China for the financial part, and this could be seen as an alternative ploy to buy time for recovery and keep China within the pool as a controlled shark rather than become the unpredictable great white in the open ocean. Until the time the Anglo-Saxon can retake control.

12. At a time when attitudes are thus changing, India should not remain like an old Japanese soldier of the Second World War, who was discovered some years ago living in an uninhabited and isolated island, thinking that the war was still on and without realising that the war ended years ago and that the world had changed beyond recognition.

13. It has to be admitted that no other country in the world has the kind of problems that India has with China----- arising from its adamant attitude in claiming Indian territory in Arunachal Pradesh, its nuclear and missile supply relationship with Pakistan, its opposition to India being associated with the UN Security Council as a permanent member and with all the dialogue and security mechanisms in the ASEAN and East Asian regions etc. Its attitudes naturally create a suspicion in the minds of large sections of our civil society that there continues to be a certain malevolence in China's attitude to India.

What makes you so confident that the "old Japanese" soldier could not be right after all! Now, now, after rebuking the old-Japanes soldiers in India, why give such factors that "naturally create suspicions"? Does not that admit a certain component of "malevolence" in the PRC mindset which does not appear to fit into the nice picture of "convergence of economic and security interests"?

14. A positive change in the attitude of the Indian civil society to China can come about only if this Indian perception of Chinese malevolence is lessened. How to bring about positive perceptional changes on both sides is a question which should engage the attention of analysts in both countries. Any campaign of hysteria and mutual demonisation in India as well as in China will come in the way of efforts to bring about changes in attitude on both sides.

Well it was indeed tried once before - unilaterally by India - change of perception from the Indian side, I mean. "Hindi Chini bhai bhai" with the early precusrosrs of "China's chairman is our chairman" etc. That led to 1962. It is said, that people who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it. Unfortunately, "looking forward" in India by the forward looking "serving bureaucracy+politician+buisness class" has typically meant tears and blood for the common Indian. Why, should we even trust the "retired bureaucrat" who behaves like a "serving bureaucrat" and contradicts his own theory!

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 14 Sep 2009 04:02

http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/ ... 92312.aspx

Looking at China unrest from Mongolian perch

Inner Mongolia: China urged to free Mongolian dissident

http://www.unpo.org/content/view/8377/114/

http://iir.nccu.edu.tw/attachments/jour ... 32-2-8.pdf

Old article on Inner Mongolia

http://www.innermongolia.org/english/index.html

All happy peaceful minorities only.

samuel · Post by **samuel** » 14 Sep 2009 05:12

Are there things we can do here and now? For example, could we:

1. Get access to satellite data such as SPOT, with updates and crowdsource the imagery for activity. This can be efficient and timely.

2. Monitor all chinese media for news and articles and catalog. That seems to already be happening.

3. Take out ads in leading local news papers in border states to raise awareness. The rattling from the other side is not at one or two places but widespread and that means they have their resources more or less in place.

4. Identify all internet gateways into china and start probing them?

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 14 Sep 2009 08:13

China getting ready for a showdown with India across Karakoram? Ashow down between China-Pakistan and US-India power blocks?

Strange activities are being watched by Indian residents near the border areas across Karakoram. Peaple’s Liveration Army of China (PLA) – has engaged in construction activities across the Karakoram ranges for stationing of additional personnel and mounting cameras for monitoring Indian troop movement. In addition secret underground construction is being watched that could be positioning short range nuclear missiles against Indian Army.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 14 Sep 2009 11:01

It is obvious that there is now a co-ordinated move by the Chinese to pressurize India from Uttara Khand to Arunachal Pradesh. Is it purely irredentism ? No, it is much more than that. China wants to keep India in a vice-like grip across all fronts, military, economic, political and diplomatic. But, why is this sudden sharp turn of events from the Chinese ?

The recent article on the divisions of India that appeared in a Chinese website and was dismissed by some as 'not Chinese thinking' not only shows our glib attitude but also our inability to confront reality or both. That article showed a remarkable coincidence in the thinking of the Chinese and the Pakistanis. It was not a chance happening. China does see an opportunity now to cause more harm to India than before. In spite of growing Indo-US proximity, the increasing dependence of the US on China in this hour of economic doom and gloom, far outstrips the Indo-US warmth and so China feels that apart from making some noise the US cannot do much if PRC decides to toy with India. With the kind of very deep pocket it has now, it is able to shut India out of energy deals all over the world thereby causing one of the greatest insecurities for India. We are being systematically starved of access to energy. China is also worried that sooner than later, China may lose its biggest advantage of locking up India through Pakistan. India has already unshackled itself from TSP and TSP is in itself in great danger of disintegration. Even if Pakistan doesn't disintegrate due to its 3½ friends, it would significantly lose its capacity to trouble India. The Indian influence and power will then amplify automatically and China will be disadvantaged. Within the next 5 to 10 years, many positive things will happen to India which will blunt some of the advantage that PRC enjoys today vis-a-vis India. The expansion of the strategic assets in the Indian Navy, strategic missiles, robust economic growth, UNSC seat, growing soft-power are some of the worrying factors for China. From thei PoV, now is the best time to harm India.

As for SLOCs, which B.Raman suggests, the Chinese would least likely take the help of India. They do not want to even give the impression that they depend on us for anything. The Chinese have a very poor opinion of India and definitely consider India as an enemy even if we make friendly overtures. In fact, the Chinese misinterpret that as cowardice. We can certainly lead them along this garden path and lull them but we should be prepared to give them back in the same coin for when, not if, the assault eventually comes, the Chinese would use their massive resources.

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 14 Sep 2009 11:09

SSridhar's take is bang on. So much better than B Raman's analysis which is encumbered by his Chinese links supposedly.

If Chinese attempt any adventurism, India should give a bloody nose this time which will result in a severe loss of face for the aspiring Asian hegemon.

There have been reports of India speeding up road building and defences along the LAC and that is probably riling the commies. They were happy as long as India kept neglecting the border infrastructure.