MRCA News and Discussion

[vishwakarmaa]

To assume only the US could do such a thing and all the others are as pure as the wind-driven snow would be foolish.

If you say "we shouldn't buy from the US because they MIGHT insert malicious code", then you have to say the same thing for France . . . and Sweden . . . and Russia . . . etc.

Indians know the difference between Russia and USA.

Russia holds a "special" friendship status for Indians and it will always remain so. It doesn't matter how USA want to bend or twist it.

Americans should show maturity and learn to live with it rather than going uneasy with Indo-Russian relations.

A lot of people amongst Indian elites seems to have fallen to recent Anti-Russian propaganda fed in Indian media, by western masters. All those crap about T-90 going Kaput, and Mig-21 being shit.

Its not about "quality" of weapons which matter in war, its about "usability".

Even Indian airforce wouldn't be comfortable with just F-18s in their force, they will always hedge their bets with Su30-MKI' because they are more reliable and trustful than some western fat elephants which stop working during wartime.

[vishwakarmaa]

USSR/Russia has been our tried and tested friend for many decades. After the Pokharan blasts, even the French stood by us. But what was America doing at this time? As far as I remember, it was busy imposing sanctions against us.

Tomorrow if a war was to break out in between India and Pakistan then India would prefer to have its secrets in the hands of the Russians or the French than the Americans, who have high stakes and deep strategic interests in Pakistan and who have been feeding Pakistan as their own baby.

Well said. Ditto.

[Patrick Cusack]

India will have a tough time deciding who to trust - US (Pakistan, Pakistan, Pakistan..............) or todays Russia(Gorshkov, Putin, China). Risks from a bad choice are too great.

[GeorgeWelch]

If you say "we shouldn't buy from the US because they MIGHT insert malicious code", then you have to say the same thing for France . . . and Sweden . . . and Russia . . . etc.

With all due respect to the Americans, as of now we have not heard of a single case of a bug been deliberately left by the Russians or the French in their equipments.

Look up the Exocets in the Falklands war

Tomorrow if a war was to break out in between India and Pakistan then India would prefer to have its secrets in the hands of the Russians or the French than the Americans, who have high stakes and deep strategic interests in Pakistan and who have been feeding Pakistan as their own baby.

Tomorrow if a war was to break out in between India and China then India would prefer to have its secrets in the hands of America than the Russians or the French, who have high stakes and deep strategic interests in China and who have been feeding China as their own baby.

(Russia has been selling all sorts of stuff to China although they've cooled off lately, France is desperately lobbying to get the arms embargo on China lifted and has perhaps even been trying to circumvent the embargo via the UAE)

[vishwakarmaa]

India will have a tough time deciding who to trust - US (Pakistan, Pakistan, Pakistan..............) or todays Russia(Gorshkov, Putin, China). Risks from a bad choice are too great.

Russia is not a 'choice'. Its a natural and permanent partner.

Indians believe in making friends and we don't break old and tested friends when making new friends. India will never hedge Russia against USA. Thats not even common sense to do so.

In fact, seeing things through 'Russia vs. USA' prism suits western strategists who dream about India leaving Russia and joining West. Let them dream.

Now, USA has to decide if it wants to be good and honest friend of India or continue the Oil games at the cost of India.

[GeorgeWelch]

Indians believe in making friends and we don't break old and tested friends when making new friends. India will never hedge Russia against USA. Thats not even common sense to do so.

No one's saying to break off with Russia, however common sense would suggest that's it's not wise to have so much of your military dependent on a single source.

[vishwakarmaa]

Tomorrow if a war was to break out in between India and China then India would prefer to have its secrets in the hands of America than the Russians or the French, who have high stakes and deep strategic interests in China and who have been feeding China as their own baby.

(Russia has been selling all sorts of stuff to China although they've cooled off lately, France is desperately lobbying to get the arms embargo on China lifted and has perhaps even been trying to circumvent the embargo via the UAE)

That doesn't make sense. Russians are not stupid to help China fight with India.

Russians have brains. They won't do anything which weakens Asia and strengthens western powers.

Americans lack brains, they just want more wars, more weapon sell, more profits, more bread-butter.

[vishwakarmaa]

I don't see any major war happening in Asia, in next 40 years. Thanks to sensible Asians.

Americans would love to see wars. It helps them earn bread and butter.

[GeorgeWelch]

That doesn't make sense. Russians are not stupid to help China fight with India.

I didn't say they would help China directly, I said they've sold a lot of their stuff to China, allowing China to thoroughly analyze it.

Russians have brains.

Americans lack brains

I don't see any major war happening in Asia, in next 40 years. Thanks to sensible Asians.

Well then, I guess all your worries about the US helping Pakistan are misplaced then.

[a_kumar]

Tomorrow if a war was to break out in between India and China then India would prefer to have its secrets in the hands of America than the Russians or the French, who have high stakes and deep strategic interests in China and who have been feeding China as their own baby.

(Russia has been selling all sorts of stuff to China although they've cooled off lately, France is desperately lobbying to get the arms embargo on China lifted and has perhaps even been trying to circumvent the embargo via the UAE)

I appreciate the focus of your assertion (China instead of Pakistan). It is still miles from being slamdunk.

Russia and France may be doing a lot of trade with China (and that definitely needs to be watched as you point out). However, US is possibly far less dependable with respect to China, and the prospects don't look so good. Guess whose b@lls China holds? Some would argue $1 Trillion debt China holds is bad for China.. but the value of $1Trillion is not merely in the monetary figure. Last I heard China has grown a few of their own, enough to pass sermons to US and throw tantrums for every action of US

Flash news : US imposed duty on Chinese tyres on Friday and China responds by spewing hot lava on Sunday!!. Bear in mind that Chinese govt is obsessively protective of its own industries and is known to award contracts to domestic players by breaking international norms. But, it is in position to taunt the US and US doesn't have much choice.

I would say though that jury is out as to how will be willing to confront China. India will have to hedge accordingly.

[vishwakarmaa]

I didn't say they would help China directly, I said they've sold a lot of their stuff to China, allowing China to thoroughly analyze it.

We can do the same. So why China still buys same from Russia?

I don't see any major war happening in Asia, in next 40 years. Thanks to sensible Asians.

Well then, I guess all your worries about the US helping Pakistan are misplaced then.

Thats why I said, Americans lack brains.

If they had brains, they wouldn't have supported Pakistani Nuke programme which is now biggest threat to world peace.

[VijayKumarSinha]

question: the same should be true to other nations as well.

Their lawyer's job is to write the agreement as much in their favor as possible. They will naturally disclaim as much liability as you let them get away with.

It is your lawyer's job to force these points to be negotiated out.

If other manufacturer's don't have these disclaimers, it's only because their lawyers aren't as good

meaning.. we should be able to draft an agreement such that we can slap liquidated damages for such malicious codes

You should, and if you don't it's only your own fault for not pushing for it.

Lawyers will disclaim anything and everything if you let them. The key is to not let them.

In short U.S. will continue to play games with India just like it is doing with the rest of its so called allies. And this is precisely the reason why U.S. is despised all around the world and especially by its allies like Pakistan and half the countries in middle-east.

When all is said and done it will be India’s fault that we didn’t draft such and such legal agreement because the term bona fide is not of much value to them.
These tricks and games are what have made Pakistan just another puppet nation at the disposal of United States along with all the countries in middle-east and elsewhere. It is for this reason only that countries such as Britain, Germany and others run either a separate weapons production program for themselves or hedge their bets by also buying American weapons as in the case of Brits.

[GeorgeWelch]

In short U.S. will continue to play games with India just like it is doing with the rest of its so called allies.

Putting disclaimers in contracts is not playing games, it's standard procedure for everyone.

These tricks and games are what have made Pakistan just another puppet nation at the disposal of United States

If that's the case then you have nothing to fear from Pakistan because the last thing the US wants is an India/Pakistan war

Oh wait, Pakistan isn't America's puppet? Even though they accept all sorts of American aid with strings? Hmmm, maybe those strings aren't as big a deal as some like to think.

[vishwakarmaa]

These tricks and games are what have made Pakistan just another puppet nation at the disposal of United States along with all the countries in middle-east and elsewhere. It is for this reason only that countries such as Britain, Germany and others run either a separate weapons production program for themselves or hedge their bets by also buying American weapons as in the case of Brits.

Absolutely.

We can wait 5 more years for signing licensed MRCA, but delaying domestic investment into LCA-II programme will be disaster-in-waiting for India. Time is running out.

LCA-II should broaden the academic and user(airforce engineers) partnership in LCA programme.

[vishwakarmaa]

If that's the case then you have nothing to fear from Pakistan because the last thing the US wants is an India/Pakistan war.

USA doesn't mind low intensity stand-off between India and pakistan. That keeps USA weapons factories running from either side.

Full-blown war between India and pakistan is not in American interest, they will loose CIA's regional headquarter(pakistan) and India will secure land access to Caucasian Oil reserves. End of American dominance in region.

Its difficult to find pooldes like Pakistan these days, specially when Hamid Karzai is giving jitters to fobama.

[Patrick Cusack]

In a war scenario India weapons leaking info to the enemy will be catastrophic and there is a huge risk with any new supplier. With regards to trust - Old Russia is proven - will modern Russia still be the same? I have my doubts.

To cut the risk how about

F-18 integrated with Indian and Israeli avionics and Swedish AESA
OR
Mig35 with Rolls Royce engine(less smoke) and same avionics and radar combination

Wonder which would be better

[VijayKumarSinha]

Putting disclaimers in contracts is not playing games, it's standard procedure for everyone.

We were not talking about harmless disclaimers here but malicious code.

If that's the case then you have nothing to fear from Pakistan because the last thing the US wants is an India/Pakistan war

Right now, Pakistan is not in a position to fight war with India now because their puppet masters command it not too. What about in the future? What new tricks are you make it do for your benefit?

Oh wait, Pakistan isn't America's puppet? Even though they accept all sorts of American aid with strings? Hmmm, maybe those strings aren't as big a deal as some like to think.

America practically handed them the nukes on a platter and its delivery systems to them. What else is there to give?

[vishwakarmaa]

America practically handed them the nukes on a platter and its delivery systems to them. What else is there to give?

Well, there is more to it.

1. Ask and bully India to sign CTBT,NPT
2. Make UNSC give Pakistan clean chit on Nuclear proliferation and nuclear Weapons Programme.

Americans ensuring Equal-equal between a poodle and giant.

[VijayKumarSinha]

If that's the case then you have nothing to fear from Pakistan because the last thing the US wants is an India/Pakistan war.

USA doesn't mind low intensity stand-off between India and pakistan. That keeps USA weapons factories running from either side.

Full-blown war between India and pakistan is not in American interest, they will loose CIA's regional headquarter(pakistan).

Its difficult to find pooldes like Pakistan these days, specially when Hamid Karzai is giving jitters to fobama.

You took the words right out of my mouth. It is by no accident of nature that all around the world U.S.A is in one way or another funding both the warring factions.

On the other hand, they are resorting to devious tactics to pressure countries such as Iran who are outside U.S.A’s realm of manipulation.
But, I do not agree that we need to delay the MMRCA due to LCA it is possible to get them both. I think we need to form alliances with countries such as Brazil, Sweden and even France for that matter who want to be free of American manipulation.

[Bala Vignesh]

Why wouldn't the rafale and Typhoon not have it??

The same risk exists in varying degrees for every piece of hardware we buy abroad.

All the more reason to get home grown products

All true sir, but one thing that i think will matter is the level of paranoia in the vendor's government...

I mean, personally, I feel American Government ( no matter who the president is ) is really paranoid about the growing influence of China and India in Asia and the threat to their one major ally in this arena, hence would definitely incorporate such underhanded methods to gather intelligence, if not for themselves then atleast to pass it on to their allies...

Its not the same with the rest of the competitors... France has no immediate credible threat to them or their interests from us in the foreseeable future... its the same with Consortium that makes the typhoon...

So the possibility of such codes being hidden in the programs is significantly reduced...

Just My humble opinion...


Yippe... My 50th post here...

[VijayKumarSinha]

America practically handed them the nukes on a platter and its delivery systems to them. What else is there to give?

Well, there is more to it.

1. Ask and bully India to sign CTBT,NPT
2. Make UNSC give Pakistan clean chit on Nuclear proliferation and nuclear Weapons Programme.

Americans ensuring Equal-equal between a poodle and giant.

I completely agree with your two points.
However, I don’t think we are giants and even if we were we shouldn’t stop at being one but continue to grow because we are in a
Red Queen race with them. And it is precisely for this reason that we need the MMRCA now.

(I hope Mod Bhagwans notice the words MMRCA and don’t do an akashvani to say that all this is irrelevant to the discussion. )

In other defence news let’s take a moment to say a few prayers for the departed soul of Mr. Patrick Swayze, who showed us the dangers that the world faced due to the commies in his remarkable work ‘Red Dawn’.
RIP Mr. Swayze, we will miss you.

[vishwakarmaa]

But, I do not agree that we need to delay the MMRCA due to LCA it is possible to get them both. I think we need to form alliances with countries such as Brazil, Sweden and even France for that matter who want to be free of American manipulation.

Good thing about Brazil is, they are not paranoid like USA in sharing defense technology with India. Brave people. Hot Chics.

Brazilians and DRDO are working together on India's AWACS programme.

[VijayKumarSinha]

Good thing about Brazil is, they are not paranoid like USA in sharing defense technology with India.

Totally agree with you. Also, the thing about forming alliances with countries such as Brazil, Sweden and Israel is that with them we don't carry the 'baggage of past history' (unlike all the good memories of cold war that we have for the A-Khans) .
Which is why( due to a multitude of reasons along with this) I favor EF, Gripen, Raphael over atharas and solah's or even paintees for that matter.

Hot Chics.

They sure do have a lot of Weapons of Mass dil-destruction there.

[Yudhajit]

Here’s my view on the Gripen ( based on the discussions so far) . I’ve been lurking around for some time, so guru logs please forgive any bhul chuk.

The main advantages and disadvantages for Gripen (as compared to F16, which is also a single engine fighter), appear to be as follows:

Advantages –

1) Has a unique Swashplate radar that can track targets 100 degrees on either side, with a Tactical Data Link to improve situational awareness
2) Ability to land and take off from ordinary roads (not yet sure about Indian roads though)
3) Shortest turn-around time of 10 mins for undertaking the next sortie
4) Shortest engine replacement time of 1 hr approx.
5) Cheapest among all to operate
6) Willing to provide full ToT

The first few advantages are unique to Gripen and appear to have the potential of being real game changers.

Disadvantages –

1) Gripen has never been in a real life combat situation, unlike the F16 -

But F16s too have mostly seen action only against much weaker adversaries (in terms of training and weapons systems). How many real tough combat '==' type situations has it faced?

2) Gripen is too close to the Tejas LCA (in terms of weight class?) -

Firstly, Tejas is still in development, and may not have some of the unique features that Gripen has. Secondly, the IAF has already taken the decision to go for a foreign product (because Tejas was delayed), and if the Tejas project has to suffer, it will suffer anyway. (Let me make it clear at this point that I fully support indigenous development, and have been following the development of Tejas with great pride)

3) Gripen Comes with no strategic advantage -

Well, it doesn't come with a strategic baggage either (unlike the F16), which could actually be seen as an advantage.

4) Some parts (like the AESA Radar) are still in R&D stage - Only a matter of time.

Overall, I think the advantages of choosing Gripen far outweigh the so called disadvantages.

[GeorgeWelch]

Putting disclaimers in contracts is not playing games, it's standard procedure for everyone.

We were not talking about harmless disclaimers here but malicious code.

The only country to have used malicious code to disable its own weapons is France

France has no immediate credible threat to them or their interests from us in the foreseeable future.

France had no immediate credible threat to them or their interests from Argentina either, yet they still had backdoors to disable the Exocets they sold them, and then they rolled over and gifted those codes to the Brits

[Dmurphy]

Red Alert: French unions against military technology transfer to Brazil

French unions are not pleased with the transfer of military technology to Brazil recently agreed between presidents Nicholas Sarkozy and Lula da Silva, according to press reports.

“There’s something which troubles us in this contract and is the fact that Brazil wants to have its own military air industry and that the agreement with Dassault, the French government and the Brazilian government includes the transfer of technology”, said Dominique Richard, a workers union leader from Dassault Aviation, France’s main aircraft manufacturer.

Dassault designed and builds the Rafale fighter-bomber which France is prepared to sell to Brazil.

[Singha]

brazil atleast has some white blood in the form of portugese & germans.

India = 100% kala. I wonder how french unions will react?

or are they afraid only because of Embraer chewing up ATR ?

[Kersi D]

Bear in mind that Chinese govt is obsessively protective of its own industries and is known to award contracts to domestic players by breaking international norms. But, it is in position to taunt the US and US doesn't have much choice.
.

In the 1970s and 1980s Japan did the same thing with US. History repeats itself !!!!!

Kersi

[Bala Vignesh]

France has no immediate credible threat to them or their interests from us in the foreseeable future.

France had no immediate credible threat to them or their interests from Argentina either, yet they still had backdoors to disable the Exocets they sold them, and then they rolled over and gifted those codes to the Brits

Ok.. i'll concede that point to you but only in regard to the french...
and as a matter of interest can someone please provide a link to the article that states that french gave the codes for exocet missile in 1982

[ashish raval]

^^ I guess you can find some information here:

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/warfar ... nds-5.html

[Bala Vignesh]

^^ I guess you can find some information here:

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/warfar ... nds-5.html

Thanks aashish for the source...

[NRao]

Wars, all of them, are just plain business to nations and their leaders.

We can see it in India too.

[Asit P]

If you say "we shouldn't buy from the US because they MIGHT insert malicious code", then you have to say the same thing for France . . . and Sweden . . . and Russia . . . etc.

With all due respect to the Americans, as of now we have not heard of a single case of a bug been deliberately left by the Russians or the French in their equipments.

Look up the Exocets in the Falklands war

There is a huge difference in between giving information about the weapons and deliberately inserting malicious code in the weapons. But even if I was to give you some Brownie points for this argument of yours, it only indicates that the French can be as unreliable as the Americans. However it does not put the Russians in the same bracket as the Americans. So please stop comparing USA with Russia. It will take many decades for USA to develop the same level of trust and bonding which the Russians enjoy with us.

Tomorrow if a war was to break out in between India and Pakistan then India would prefer to have its secrets in the hands of the Russians or the French than the Americans, who have high stakes and deep strategic interests in Pakistan and who have been feeding Pakistan as their own baby.

Tomorrow if a war was to break out in between India and China then India would prefer to have its secrets in the hands of America than the Russians or the French, who have high stakes and deep strategic interests in China and who have been feeding China as their own baby.

Neither Russia nor France has the same level of stakes in China which USA has in Pakistan, and none of them have been feeding China as their baby. They have business interests in China and not strategic interests. When was the last time when Russia or France gave aids worth billions of dollars to China, and when was the last time when Russia or France armed the Chinese with sophesticated weapons as freebies under the pretext of fighting terror? But this is precisely what USA has been doing to Pakistan since ages.

Just recently there was a confession made by Pakistan's ex president, Musharraf that they have constantly been diverting US funds to strengthen defence against India. And this is how casually USA took this issue:-

In an interview to a Pakistani news channel, Musharraf admitted that he had violated the rules governing the use of the military aid, but justified his action, saying he had "acted in the best interest of Pakistan".

Kelly evaded a reply when asked whether any investigations have been launched in this regard.

"First of all, Musharraf is a private citizen. He provided very few details, so we would refer you to him to get these kinds of details," Kelly said. ( )

"I would just say, as a general principle, we take very seriously any allegation of using US-originating military assistance for purposes other than we had already agreed to and that we had intended them for," Kelly said.

Source:- http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 013087.cms

[NRao]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone looked into IF the EF has any "US Components" - specially their engine? And, if it does have US components, could they be sanction-able? I am more interested in the engine sine the engine is being considered for the LCA (MK II?).

TIA.

[sunny y]

^^^Eurofighter Typhoon has Eurojet EJ2000 powerplant and Eurojet is a multi-national consortium comprising of Rolls-Royce of Italy, ITP of Spain and MTU Aero Engines of Germany....So as far as engine is concerned, there won't be any problems.....

[SaiK]

If I choose a coin to toss up!.. I would choose a coin that has EF2K as head, and Rafale as the tail. On the contrary, we could also have a coin that has F18 as head, and Mig35 as tail or F16IN as head, and Gripen as a tail.. but all these coins have less value.. lets go for the real gold here, ef2k vs rafale.

rest is all configuration wars.

[NRao]

^^^Eurofighter Typhoon has Eurojet EJ2000 powerplant and Eurojet is a multi-national consortium comprising of Rolls-Royce of Italy, ITP of Spain and MTU Aero Engines of Germany....So as far as engine is concerned, there won't be any problems.....

Being a multi national with all companies from the EU does not mean anything. They could source some components from outside EU.

Kaveri is all Indian, but, what, some 50+% of components are from outside India?

[Sriman]

^^^Eurofighter Typhoon has Eurojet EJ2000 powerplant and Eurojet is a multi-national consortium comprising of Rolls-Royce of Italy, ITP of Spain and MTU Aero Engines of Germany....So as far as engine is concerned, there won't be any problems.....

Being a multi national with all companies from the EU does not mean anything. They could source some components from outside EU.

Kaveri is all Indian, but, what, some 50+% of components are from outside India?

Exactly. Livefist has an article on the LCA engine competition and one of the comments mentions that EJ200 has components from American companies like BF Goodrich Aerospace. I know the credibility of the author (of the comment) is questionable and i couldn't find anything to corroborate that, so take it FWIW.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/09/wh ... tejas.html

[NRao]

Ah. That must be the source of my source.

However, I have to doubt that even the EADS people are totally self reliant. They have to have some components from a US company (not a knock on them - just the way business is done - why reinvent the wheel). But, I very much doubt that either the EF and Gripen guys never dreamt that they would be in this situation WRT the IAF MRCA deal.

My query is not to pin the EF guys. Just curious.

[Rahul PS]

Vandanam Gurus..
My first post here

I for one wont go for a U.S deal, mainly 'coz
1) amongst other things, interoperability btwn indian and US forces and coopting india as a junior partner in asian security structure is something they always wanted and that is not something i guess we want.
2)EUMA clauses which nobody else has(ex: Russia) and the resulting handicap of not being able to modify the fighter according to our needs.So, we will be dependant on them for almost all major changes.(they might set up a production line but that doesnt solve all the issues).
3)they haven't got a good record in ToT compared with others.
4)its a one time deal since we have already entered into a partnership with russia(pakfa,LCA is also getting ready), so any future offerings of a f-35 or anything like that is not a game changer.
5)and the greatest of them all is the baggage they carry in these parts of the world.a war btwn india-pakistan is something they want to avoid at all costs.It will be certaily more easy for them to stop or atleast reduce the capability of india in conducting a punitive air strike.So it is in their interest to snoop on what we r doing with these toys, hence more chance of they installing malicious codes(EUMA is another reason) or reducing the war time usability of these fighters.
6)this is a big deal and once in many decades kind of one, so we cannot take any chance, we have to build trust to such levels where we r comfortable with them to hand over these kind of deals.