India-China News and Discussion

ukhrul · Post by **ukhrul** » 20 Sep 2009 15:48

Dear All,

I would like to urge all of us, Indians and Chinese, to stop getting jingoistic.

I would like to bring forth a very simple truth in both our countries.

First starting with China, rising corruption - the honest Chinese blogger cannot deny in his/her heart, this is an issue, and with the press under Communist Party control, reports of such corruption - the vicious triads is next to impossible, forget justice for the affected.

In China, there has been ethnic purges of Tibetans, Uighurs and lesser known tribes, for China to progress, not just by production of machinery, but also as a strong nation, inclusiveness is of utmost importance, but the Communist rulers are doing the opposite, my question to the Chinese blogger - do you really want to suppress someone just because he/she is not Han? If you are currently in a 'hate India' frame of mind, please do not respond.

I would like to know that since India has stuck to 1947 boundaries between the two countries, how can the Communist Party there claim Arunachal Pradesh as China's? If we turn back time, prior to 1926, even Burma was within India. How far back would you go? During Emperor Kanishka's reign, parts of Central Asia was under Indian control. Can we claim Kyrgystan as ours? No, it is the most insane thing to do.

I would ask the even minded Chinese, what is the threat they receive from India? Why do you let Communist Party represent China, can you not have a voice of your own? As an individual do you believe I wish great misery upon you or China as a nation? My honest reply is 'NO'. If a billion people are not your enemies, why do you see us through a Communist Party lense?

Now coming back to my country, first tell me brethren, today is corruption not the single most bane for our country? Do we not all despise our impotent and incorrigbly rotten politicians? Most of all, if we were really honest about settling the issue, the border dispute would be over by 1950, but it did not, is China, which was a militarily inferior from our British trained battle ready soldiers, would always have gone for a mutually respectful solution. Why did not Nehru do it, why this dispute was always kept alive? Why was NEFA a place of British style exploitation that gave rise to an unending insurgency there?

We ourselves have given China a military advantage, and now we cannot blame China for being practical, can we? All we can do, is bargain for the British de lineation between the two countries. And being very honest,we have to keep a formidable force present in China border. This is not to pose a threat, this is to remind the Communist Party there, that people of India and China cannot be fooled by jingoism. Same message for our own politicians. Let us not fight as individuals.

Let us, Indians and Chinese netizen, find a solution.

Regards,

Ukhrul.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Sep 2009 16:33

Life in the PRC.Here's a good piece on the pleasures of a Chinese "resort "!

I was sentenced to life in a Chinese labour camp. This is my story

Harry Wu was incarcerated for 19 years, a victim of Chairman Mao's Cultural Revolution. Now a human rights campaigner, he recalls how the horror began

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 90465.html

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 20 Sep 2009 16:59

Just that if you put me in the middle of Kalahari desert, I will eventually end up being the best friend of the chief of which ever tribe I come across.

That ain't me, but I would end up befriending the chief's youngest wife.

deja vue.....in Mr Bean film.........only you forgot to add 'lemon and tooth brush.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 20 Sep 2009 19:53

Avinash R wrote: The people who need to be criticised are people like M.K.Narayanan who blame the indian media for raising the issue of incurions.
Did MKN visit the AP villages and get sense of the situation on the border? No.
All he does is meet the chinese embassy official in delhi and then say everyting is right on the border. He can get back to "do nothing" mode. No need to modernise the defence forces, he can get back to smoking the peace pipe.

MK Narayanan bleating about some nation on hair trigger and getting rattled due to media to start war; doesn't speak of maturity of the nation. If that is case, all the more reason for India to excercise extra caution in defence preparedness. Instead of begging the press and sundry to "pretty please, do not provoke the nervous wrecks chinese, who will start a war because some press reporter wrote something after helping himself with extra serving of vodka" does not reflect confidence in the capability and preparedness on the MK Narayanan side. He is actually begging to be not put in a spot to deal with any misadventure by the Chinese. He will beg anyone for that matter so he doesn't actually have to face a situation where he has prove that he did justice to his position. Pathetic. pathetic...
Given this it looks like Rahul Mehta may actually have a point when he says "right to bear guns" is a worthy exploration.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 20 Sep 2009 20:20

asprinzl wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:Just that if you put me in the middle of Kalahari desert, I will eventually end up being the best friend of the chief of which ever tribe I come across.

That ain't me, but I would end up befriending the chief's youngest wife.
And in turn end up as his dinner. Very smart indeed.

In most primitive or tribal soceities, respect earns respect. And mischief begets mischief. I have been to tribal camps of the Bedoine in Negev, other tribal camps in Yemen, desert tribal outposts in Sudan, sat and shared weird tasting old milk in Mongolian camp with nomads, shared vodka with the fierce Cossacks in southern Russia, even befriended the very hostile Tuareg in Senegal. I have visited the oreng aslee in central Malaysia, shared some spiritually moving experience in a Native American Hogan in New Mexico.....in all these places....respect begets respect. Always. Never under estimate the intelligence of these peoples or insult them on their own turf.

well said... not had the range of your experiences, but meeting tribal people on their turf has always been very humbling for me... probably the realisation that left to my own devices on their land, i'd be dead before the next morning!

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 20 Sep 2009 20:32

Nihat wrote:DDM though is going way over and hyping the threat beyond belief . It's like Fox news on Iraq , only worse. I set about watching healines today yesterday and times now the day before and the tone of the media was sensationalist to say the least. Our media is not nationalistic , it just wants to create "Breaking news" out of everything.

Reporters talk as if we are at the mercy of China and they are going to attack tomorrow , they show everything from Google maps of airbases to potential naval bases to any other military plan which may or may not be conceptulized.

This is mind conditioning. Without giving facts and without giving details of Chinese govt or clips of Beijing they are trying to create an image of a large powerful distant power which is trying to attack India.
Watch carefully how many new report talk about Tibet info inside China occupied Tibet.

Such fear mongering is not helping at all and contrary to belief it does not force the hand of GoI to act. The media is a reflection on the mood of the nation and it's unofficial spokesperson on the international stage , they must be put in their place sometime , not like China perhaps but surely terms of Quality and credible reporting which does not needlessly dent the nations reputation and standing.

This is indoctrination.
Media ia a tool in India and is being used to change and give false perception of the world.

On the other hand , it's highly doubtful that China will come out to start a conflict , for all their military might and missile tech. they still did not fire a bullet towards Taiwan in recent times , leave alone a trading partner and military machinery as big as India. They use classical soft power in terms of diplomatic clout , economic power and a bit of military projection and the media flips out .

China could still create trouble due to its internal problems.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 20 Sep 2009 21:28

Now time to call this as "media hype" too. Chinese are not altering the border, they are not increasing military forces, all this is "media hype". Time to sleep easy and "do nothing'.

China working on a military plan against India?
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/china-workin ... 817-3.html

...A confidential intelligence note with CNN-IBN suggests the Chinese are working to an India centric plan:

In Arunachal Pradesh, the behaviour of Chinese troops has become more aggressive. Border pillars in some areas have been deliberately broken and bunkers have been built on the Indian side of the McMahon Line.

Opposite Sikkim's eastern border a new highway and permanent army structures have come up. Chinese forces are now positioned to cut the strategic Siliguri corridor in India in the event of hostilities.

A joint command of the Lanzhou Military Region opposite Ladakh, Himachal Pradesh and Uttarakhand and the Chengdu Military Region opposite India's North-east have come up.
...

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 20 Sep 2009 21:35

desi tv media all over crowing about a leaked letter AQ Khan wrote to his wife in Dec 2003 when he was arrested by the Paki gubmint.

Clearly says Pak's N bums were of chini design. Also, PRC gifted 50kg enriched Uranium for the first paki bum.

Also that chini designs were passed onto Iran, noko and libya. Yada yada.

Sometimes i wonder at the alacrity and focus in the media suddenly in the last week for focussing on china. wow or what?

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 20 Sep 2009 21:40

JwalaMukhi wrote:MK Narayanan bleating about some nation on hair trigger and getting rattled due to media to start war; doesn't speak of maturity of the nation. If that is case, all the more reason for India to excercise extra caution in defence preparedness. Instead of begging the press and sundry to "pretty please, do not provoke the nervous wrecks chinese, who will start a war because some press reporter wrote something after helping himself with extra serving of vodka" does not reflect confidence in the capability and preparedness on the MK Narayanan side. He is actually begging to be not put in a spot to deal with any misadventure by the Chinese. He will beg anyone for that matter so he doesn't actually have to face a situation where he has prove that he did justice to his position. Pathetic. pathetic...
Given this it looks like Rahul Mehta may actually have a point when he says "right to bear guns" is a worthy exploration.

It's time for MKN to retire and some other person who is cunning and has a better grasp of national security matters to take over.
Dealing with 2 hostile forces from east and north is taking it's toll on him.
In his latest interview he is despondent and unable to come to terms that giving evidence reg 26/11 attacks to pakistan will NOT end terrorism.
Methods like dossier trading wont end institutionalised terrorism from pakistan, hard action against terrorist heads will and that's were our efforts should be.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 83#p741383

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 20 Sep 2009 23:15

rsingh, I'll have to look up that film of Mr Bean's.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 034637.cms

China won't wage war on India'

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 21 Sep 2009 00:01

Nihat wrote:DDM though is going way over and hyping the threat beyond belief . It's like Fox news on Iraq , only worse. I set about watching healines today yesterday and times now the day before and the tone of the media was sensationalist to say the least. Our media is not nationalistic , it just wants to create "Breaking news" out of everything.

I would instead like to know as to why NDTV is playing it down.
Barkha keeps saying that war mongering channels are playing this up.... She should be given the Noble peace prize for promoting peace by looking the other way.

Y I Patel · Post by **Y I Patel** » 21 Sep 2009 01:39

One has to be open to the possibility that some elements on the Indian side decided to pump up news of Chinese incursions. On seeing how out of control the whole issue became with popular media, other elements (or maybe even the same element) decided to backpedal furiously.

I can think of some Indian groupings whose interests would be served by escalating the temperature just a wee little bit. But the water became too hot, and now cold water needs to be added to the mix!

ashi · Post by **ashi** » 21 Sep 2009 03:55

Our Chinese Wall
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/our-c ... ll/516211/

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 21 Sep 2009 11:07

Y I Patel wrote:One has to be open to the possibility that some elements on the Indian side decided to pump up news of Chinese incursions. On seeing how out of control the whole issue became with popular media, other elements (or maybe even the same element) decided to backpedal furiously.

What you are saying would be true if there was no evidence of chinese intrusion. This is no silly matter when the govt's own report states chinese military building bunkers on Indian side of border in AP. This is like the initial days of kargil when reports of large scale intrusions by pakistani military was denied. It was being spinned as some terrorist elements which are attacking indian positions and only later it turned into a border war.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 21 Sep 2009 12:45

Who stands to gain from war hysteria - MK Bhadrakumar
Excerpts

Broadly speaking, three categories of Indian opinion-makers are raising the war hysteria over India’s relations with China. First, it isn’t difficult at all to spot old familiar faces in the foreign and security policy circuit who push the case with great sophistication and aplomb that a growing Chinese menace leaves India with no alternative but to calibrate its foreign policy and edge ever closer to the United States. They are intelligent people, suave and articulate, who held important positions in the government in various capacities in India and abroad.

Second, an easily identifiable ebullient crowd of retired defence officers presents a one-dimensional case that the civilian leadership is underestimating the Chinese threat and the armed forces should be provided far greater financial and material resources to meet the threat. All militaries have corporate interests and a case needs to be built for earmarking 7 per cent of India’s GDP for the defence budget.

Third, of course, there are the ubiquitous right-wing Hindu nationalists, the self-appointed custodians of national security, for whom China is the hurdle to India’s emergence as a superpower. They genuinely lack the intellectual wherewithal to comprehend that the time for “superpower-dom” is gone with the wind in world politics. But their doublespeak puzzles. China concluded a memorandum of understanding with the RSS last year and senior RSS figures were hosted by Beijing. It must, therefore, be concluded that they are grandstanding to score a point or two against the ruling party.

Indeed, the India-China relationship has been steadily expanding and maturing in the recent years. The regular high-level political exchanges, burgeoning trade ties, nascent strategic dialogue, cooperation in regional and international issues of common concern, military-to-military cooperation and so on can only lead to greater trust and confidence, enabling the two countries to address the border dispute. This was also the pattern of Russian-Chinese normalisation.

So, where lies the problem? Who indeed stands to gain by vitiating the climate of India-China relations? Suffice to say, China is the second largest economy in the world and India is poised to become the third largest in an intermediate future. In strategic terms, as the two countries probe ways and means of cooperating on a range of issues of vital interest — climate change, Doha Round, religious extremism and terrorism — their collective impact on the Asian security paradigm can be phenomenal and it is beginning to be felt in some significant measure already. A sense of uneasiness is appearing in the West about the locus of world politics inexorably shifting eastward.

China’s international standing as a responsible power and stakeholder in world stability will suffer a serious setback. The suspicions regarding the “Middle Kingdom” will resurface among China’s neighbours. As the current developments in Myanmar show, China’s friendly ties with many of its neighbours are delicately balanced — though the common thesis propounded by a junior American analyst in the Pentagon in her late twenties and parroted by our seasoned strategic thinkers is that China is constructing a “string of pearls” around the Indian neck. Last but not the least, China is a cautious power.

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 21 Sep 2009 13:29

M.K.Bhadrakumar is a chinese lifafa since the beginning.He fits perfectly into Chindu editorial team.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Sep 2009 18:12

None so blind than those that cannot see! It is surprising to see MKB wearing an eye-patch and turning a Nelsonian eye towards the relentless Chinese encirclement of India.Let's for a moment see whether India has done anything similar to China.We have not sent our troops on picnics into Chinese territory.Have we given Taiwan or Vietnam nuclear weapoin designs and N-material? Have we established naval bases or building huge new ones like the ones at Gwadar or Hambantota in the Phillipines,Indonesia,Japan or Korea? We've just faintheartedly abandoned setting up an air base in Mongolia,because it would hurt the Chinese (!).So why is China indulging in these destablising acts of global military expansion?

Unfortunately MKB cannot see that China's creeping strategy is as sinister as that of a snake slithering softly towards its victim using the tactics of stealth.The apologists for Chinese mischief against India should be sent to the high Himalayas and Siachen on a one way ticket to learn the truth of the matter.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 21 Sep 2009 18:17

Would MKB and his colleagues kindly clarify why we have such pathetic relations with China and why does China in turn have pathetic unfriendly and essentially commercial relations with practically every corner of earth other than nations like NK and TSP? After all 'right wing fundamentalists' have ruled our country for only 5 out of 50 years!

Interestingly while CHindu itself tried to yellow wash the so called 'anonymous blogger' who should be treated as just that - another anonymous blogger like the millions that exist, MKB gives him/her undue importance and even justifies that comment as a reaction to similar articles for two years in India (by who?). So to the Stalinists everything China does is right. Anything we do is wrong.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 21 Sep 2009 18:28

China's supply of HEU, Plutonium separation facility, nuclear weapon design, nuclear weapons, M-9 & M-11 missiles, and assistance in cold tests and hot-tests later on are not actions of a friendly country. These are actions of an implacable enemy who simply wants to destroy us. The Chinese know the blind hatred Pakistan has for India and their desire to destroy us. Their transfer of complete weapons of mass destruction to an unstable, theocratic country is not exactly an action of a responsible country interested in world stability as MK Bhadrakumar portrays China to be. In addition to Pakistan, it has been responsible for transfers of prohibited technologies after it accepted its obligations under NPT & MTCR to North Korea and Saudi Arabia. How blatantly, Mr. Bhadra Kumar white washes all these irresponsible actions !

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 21 Sep 2009 19:51

Govt to file case against journalists for 'wrong' report

NEW DELHI: Taking note of a "wrong" report about Chinese firing at Indian border guards, Government has decided to slap cases against two reporters of a prominent national daily who authored it.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 21 Sep 2009 20:02

India should summon China's Ambassador: RSS mouthpiece

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 21 Sep 2009 20:12

SSridhar wrote:China's supply of HEU, Plutonium separation facility, nuclear weapon design, nuclear weapons, M-9 & M-11 missiles, and assistance in cold tests and hot-tests later on are not actions of a friendly country.

They are in fact actions of extreme malice unprecedented in history.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 21 Sep 2009 21:06

shravan wrote:Govt to file case against journalists for 'wrong' report
NEW DELHI: Taking note of a "wrong" report about Chinese firing at Indian border guards, Government has decided to slap cases against two reporters of a prominent national daily who authored it.

Why not apply such laws equally? Burkha dutt during the riots was going around showing an burning koran which further lead to violence. Why not prosecute her for inciteful actions which led to people's death instead of this report which did not cause any loss of life.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 21 Sep 2009 21:15

Wow! Burkha in Kargil was giving away positions of soldiers, in 26-11 giving away operational details and during riots waves burning Korans all over TV...

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 21 Sep 2009 23:04

Why not prosecute her for inciteful actions which led to people's death instead of this report which did not cause any loss of life.

The report did not cause any loss of life but if deliberatly a false report was filed by the two reporters, its implications are quite scary.

Some things are obvious:

1. All of a sudden, in the last two weeks, there was a rash of such anti-China news reports in a range of Indian newspapers and news channels. This means that somebody orchestrated the entire sequence. This in turn means that there is a foriegn power which has cultivated enough influence in Indian media to run campaigns to put pressure on the Indian government to do something against national interest. (I am seeing evidence of this again and again, in the recent gay rights campaign, the campaign for Muslim reservations in the Indian army, the environmental campaigns against Hindu festivals, and so on.)

2. Somebody deliberately tried to raise the temperature between India and China and worsen the relations in the hope that the Indian army comes under pressure and some border skirmish takes place as a result of this non-stop propaganda.

3. Who gains by this China-India border skirmish? What was the objective of that foriegn power?

4. How did this power manage to influence the journalists? Was it by money under the table? Was it through acquiring control over the Indian media by making strategic investments? Was it through plain flattery and invitiation to some international seminars? These two journalists against whom the cases have been filed should be grilled by Indian intelligence to get these facts as to how actually the deals take place between Indian journalist and the sponsors of false reports.

5. Does India need a watchdog to keep an eye on Indian journalists and their unethical dealings and corruption, which this incident shows may pose a threat to national security? Do such journalists writing false reports and interfering in India's international relations with other countries should be given a jail term?

It is now time for the government to come to grips with these issues. The need of the hour is to have a parliamentary probe into the working of the Indian media houses (especially the editors-turned-media owners), make the editors accountable for what they print and broadcast and make laws to sheild the Indian journalists from the influence of foriegn intelligence agents and honey traps.

Very strong laws are needed to protect the customers (viewers and readers) of the Indian media from being dished out spurious reporting and false facts. This is a customer protection issue too.

For example, if a reporter has taken some money or gift or foriegn trip from a sponsor before doing a positive story on him, not revealing this to the readers should be made a criminal offense punishable with a month in jail. Ditto for deliberately publicising false facts about someone in an orchestrated witchhunt. This will be a beginning in reducing corruption and false reporting in Indian media which have reached monstrous proportions.

Some time ago, there was a very sensible suggestion that profit-making companies be barred from the reporting of news (print and broadcast). Instead, it should be mandatory for all newspapers and news channels to be run by no-profit trusts. The for-profit companies and media barons should strictly be limited to entertainment channels and publications. This will at one stroke get rid of influence of foriegn embassies and corruption in news reporting as the media barons and editor-entreupreneurs are the biggest culprits in this game of lies and deceit and selling national interest down the river for small personal gains.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 21 Sep 2009 23:53

The line of thinking that "who would benifit" as a means to uncover the truth is faulty. This can throw up whatever the person wants thrown up. This question of "who would benifit" should not be raised unless a very simple question has been satisfactorily answered. That question is: is it true that PRC is violating the border?

If it is, it does not matter who benifits by these facts, because is upon us and it needs to be dealt with.

adel ansari · Post by **adel ansari** » 22 Sep 2009 00:05

India gets a much awaited opening in Myanmar..

New Delhi: China may have stood like a rock behind Myanmar for the past 20 years while the rest of the world treated it like a pariah, vetoing UN resolutions against the military regime, providing it arms and billions of dollars to develop infrastructure, and thus allowing the isolated country to cock a snook at the international community. But now, cracks are appearing in that relationship, which, analysts say, can benefit New Delhi if exploited well, particularly since India
The overwhelming Chinese presence had rung alarm bells in some quarters of the Myanmar military establishment. General Than Shwe, a smart tactician, believes his country cannot afford to put all its eggs in the China basket and wants India and other countries to come in with major developmental projects.
The recent release of the American citizen who swam across to Nobel Laureate Aung San Suu Kyi's home is an indication that the bamboo curtain is lifting inch by inch. There is hope in Yangon that the new Barack Obama administration in the US would be less sanctimonious and gradually open up to Myanmar. The Americans are saying nothing publicly but the visit of US senator Jim Webb in August, when he called the sanctions against Myanmar "overwhelmingly counterproductive", gives room for hope.
Yangon's problems with China in recent months in the border areas, where ethnic Chinese have clashed with the Myanmar army, have led to fresh tension.
The Myanmar National Democratic Alliance Army (MNDAA) in Kokang, an ethnic Chinese region in the northern Shan state bordering China, has been under attack by the army which wants all its tribes in the north east of the country, allowed by a China-brokered peace agreement in 1989, to integrate into Myanmar's forces and become border guards.
The junta demanded the ethnic armies become militias under the control of the armed forces. Fearing the loss of autonomy and business, major groups rejected the junta's demand.
Refusing to take no for an answer, government forces attacked and defeated Karen rebels in June. And the junta launched an assault on MNDAA, triggering an exodus of over 30,000 refugees, including Chinese citizens doing business in Kokang, across the border into Nansan county. Beijing called on the military government to restore order in the border area and unprecedentedly, to "protect the safety and legal rights of Chinese citizens in Myanmar".
The situation in Kokang has stabilised and Chinese authorities are encouraging refugee return. But the simmering differences have come to the surface.
India, which has changed its policy towards Myanmar since the early 1990s, can become a game-changer in the country if it plays its cards well. China flies in its own labour to work on sites funded by Beijing and small China towns have sprung up in many areas of Myanmar. It is the same story in Africa where the Chinese aid, while appreciated, has also alarmed many.
This is something Yangon is uneasy about and New Delhi can make good use of. But despite promises of major development projects, the Indian bureaucracy is lethargic and moves at a snail's pace. If India wants to be a game-changer in Myanmar, it needs to quickly get its act together.

adel ansari · Post by **adel ansari** » 22 Sep 2009 00:06

here is the link for the above article
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_ch ... ty_1291841

Haresh · Post by **Haresh** » 22 Sep 2009 00:15

From the London Times

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 842947.ece

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 22 Sep 2009 03:07

That Times of Londonistan piece was a nice psyops. The author pretends to be so non-biased that his bias is blinding. So the Chinese don't trust India because of that mass murdering terrorist/counter-revultionary/splittist Dalai Lama fleeing to India in 1959?

Is there any mention of their armed occupation of Tibet and the millions killed afterwards as the precipitator for this action?

What would this author have wrote in 1943? "Jews claim they are being interred and executed by the Nazis. German gov't. claims the allegations baseless." Ahh, nice and balanced, the essence of Western journalism.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Sep 2009 03:20

Why dont you re-write your views and submit to the paper as Letter to editor?

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 22 Sep 2009 04:48

http://www.dailypioneer.com/204204/Chin ... drugs.html

China has formally apologised to Nigeria for alleged export of fake drugs, including some labelled as ‘Made in India’ by some Chinese firms to the country and assured to take punitive action against the culprits.

In June, Nigeria’s National Agency for food and drug Administration and Control (NAFDFAC) said it had detected a large consignment of anti-malaria drugs from China, which had been labelled ‘Made in India’, being sold in the country.

At a meeting of global coalition partners against fake drugs manufacture, importation and exportation in Abuja, Chinese Ambassador to Nigeria Rong Yansong regretted the exportation of fake drugs to the West African country by some Chinese nationals and industries.

“I wish to use this opportunity to apologise to Nigeria for the exportation of such products to the country.

Yes sir, even the Nigerians deserve some apology. But what about to India? Well, there is no consequence for anyone to tarnish India's name and no one worries about the consequences. Ah, India would be wined and dined at the high table anytime now.

arun · Post by **arun** » 22 Sep 2009 12:36

Excerpt restricted to relations with the Peoples Republic of China National from an interview of our Security Advisor M K Narayanan by CNN-IBN’s Karan Thapar:

Devil's Advocate: India doesn't have China complex: NSA

Karan Thapar / CNN-IBN

Published on Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 22:00, Updated on Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 18:06 in India section ..................

Karan Thapar: Let’s start with China first; in recent weeks there is a widespread perception that Chinese incursions across the Line of Actual Control (LAC) have increased and many people say that in fact the incursion is coming deeper and deeper into Indian territory. What’s the truth about these perceptions?

M K Narayanan: There haven’t been any increase if you take the last few years. And I really find it hard to explain why there has been so much media hype on this question. I think it’s disturbing because it tends to give an impression and then people get attuned to that kind of attitude. Almost all the so-called incursions which have taken place have taken place in areas which in a sense are viewed as being disputed by one side or the other.

In terms of number of incursions; I think there has been hardly any increase. And there is much more knowledge about what’s happening because I think people are much more alive to these questions etc.

Occasionally maybe the inroads are little deeper than what they might have been in the past. So I don’t think there is anything alarming about it and I think we have a good understanding about the whole issue.

Karan Thapar: Let me underline two important things that you said: firstly that there has been no worrying or remarkable increase in the number of incursions, is that right?

M K Narayanan: Yes.

Karan Thapar: And secondly even though one or two of the incursions may have been deeper than before these are not alarming situations?

M K Narayanan: No.

Karan Thapar: So is it in fact just media hype that is building up a sense of concern?

M K Narayanan: As a National Security Advisor and as part of the National Security architecture or mechanism as the case maybe, I am unable to explain why this kind of--one can always argue that any incursion, small or big could be a cause of concern. But having been through this--not only now but in the past, I don’t think there is any reason for us to feel particularly concerned as to what’s happening.

Our idea is that our border should be tranquil. I think as far as possible we would like to keep it tranquil. I think my counterpart and I have discussed this from time to time.

Not only the two of us as the special representatives but political leadership on both sides is very keen to maintain peace and tranquility on the border and I think that explains a lot.

Karan Thapar: As you must be aware certain opposition politicians, Mulayam Singh Yadav for one, have even called for special sessions of parliament. The Bharatiya Janta Party (BJP) has asked for a white paper on the subject.

Are you saying to me that those are exaggerated political reactions?

M K Narayanan: When one sees what comes in the media almost on a day-to-day basis, I presume political leaders will be concerned is this happening? We want to know more about it etc. And I don’t want to blame the media but the question is, why there is so much reporting?

I wont even use the word exaggerated reporting on the point. But I think this is a national security issue. It isn’t a kind of a game that we are playing and the more you raise people’s concerns, the tension could rise and we would then be facing a situation of the kind that we wish to avoid.

Karan Thapar: In other words the media by its overreaction could end up creating a problem that it wants to avoid?

M K Narayanan: Could create a problem and I have been through 1962. Then, of course we didn’t have the media of this kind. What we need to be careful of is that we don’t have an unwarranted incident or an accident of some kind and that’s what we are trying to avoid.

But there is always concern that if things go on like this someone, somewhere might lose his cool and something might go wrong.

Karan Thapar: In other words the media might accidentally, unintentionally, provoke someone to do something that otherwise would not have happened?

M K Narayanan: I don’t think they would provoke but people may get mesmerised into doing something, seeing a ghost where it probably doesn’t exist.

Karan Thapar: It’s also been reported that the army has sought the lifting of restrictions on patrolling along what’s considered sensitive sectors of the border. Is that a fact that the army want these restrictions removed?

M K Narayanan: It’s not as if new restrictions have been placed. There are limits of patrolling which are placed from time to time, and it’s a calibrated exercise.

If you suddenly think that things are--there could be problems in a particular direction, that you may feel that you need to be little careful, sometimes the limits are--I mean everybody who is on the border is conscious of the fact that you need to keep the border safe and therefore there are different views. But the decisions are taken at the highest level basically by the China Study Group and then these are approved by the cabinet committee.

Karan Thapar: But it has been suggested that there could be differences within the government over the nature of the patrolling.

It is said in the press that the army wants a more assertive response --the MEA (Ministry of External Affairs) is a bit concerned about offending or provoking the Chinese--is there any truth to these differences of opinions?

M K Narayanan: There is always (differences)--why only between--even I suppose within the army or within the MEA or within Ministry of Home Affairs there could be differences because we are human beings. That’s why you have a China Study Group which looks at all aspects of the question. Then over and above that as I said there is the Cabinet committee which looks at it.

There are perceptions of what you need to do. An organised government, which has various checks and balances, looks at these questions and sees what is in the best interest of the country. Each individual can’t do what he likes.

Karan Thapar: Now it is not just activity on the border that has the media concerned and certain opposition politicians concerned. There are also increasing reports of what are considered hostile articles in the Chinese media that mock at or scoff at India.

For instance there was an article in August in the journal of the Chinese Institute of Strategic Studies which said that just a little action on China’s part could lead to the fragmentation of India into 20-30 bits. How do you view this sort of increasing commentary?

M K Narayanan: I don’t think it is so much of increasing--it has been there and there is now more academic freedom in China than previously I believe. And it is not that everything that comes in either ‘Global Times’ or in the ‘Strategic Review’ etc reflects the opinion of the Chinese government, which is the conventional wisdom in these matters.

After all there are articles in our newspapers or what’s more even statements by responsible people in India sometimes which are not particularly favourably inclined towards China.

Karan Thapar: In other words this sort of thing happens on both sides?

M K Narayanan: Both sides and that’s why you have governments who look at the whole issue and do not get carried away by individual statements.

Karan Thapar: What do you say to strategic experts who look at these two twin developments of activity on the border and hostile commentary in the Chinese press and say this is a deliberate pattern or strategy to put pressure on India?

Some people have even gone so far as to say that if we aren’t careful we may see the buildup of a sort of situation that existed in India in 1962 before the war began.

M K Narayanan: The first thing I would like to sort of wipe out is the question of a repeat of 1962. India of 2009 isn’t India of 1962 and those who say this, most of those people who have written this, were not even born perhaps in 1962--I was there and I want to make that point very clearly. So there is a very fundamental difference between India of 1962 and India of 2009.

It is easy to write an article – I wrote articles for 10 long years, hopefully they were balanced ones but necessarily one doesn’t have most of the facts. The system that we follow is that you get pieces of information, they are not necessarily considered views and therefore assessment tends sometimes to be quite off the mark.

Karan Thapar: One reason why people are concerned at the moment about the buildup of what they consider to be incursions and also hostile commentary in the Chinese press is a second perception that the border and boundary talks that you’re holding are not making progress and secondly that the Chinese are trying to wriggle out of an understanding reached in 2005 that settled areas would not be the subject of any future boundary alignment.

Are your talks with the Chinese on the boundary making progress?

M K Narayanan: I think my last round of talks with Mr. Dai Bingo was the best that I have had in the nine rounds that I have held with him. We discussed the border and boundary dispute.

I think we had over 14.5 hours of discussion spread over a couple of days and of which I think eight-nine hours were on the border. I think we are much more comfortable at this moment than we were a year ago.

Karan Thapar: One of the widespread beliefs is that the Chinese are trying to wriggle out of an understanding achieved in 2005 that settled areas would not be the subject of any border realignment in future?

M K Narayanan: I think it’s a way of looking at some of the language which was used. For instance we have talked in terms of due interest of the settled population and there are what I call terms and the nuances of that are different. I think the Chinese would like certain areas with settled populations to be brought within the system.

We have under the political parameters and guiding principles a certain understanding. That’s why we are negotiating.

Karan Thapar: Do you have a problem here or is this in fact once again a result of the media not being fully aware?

M K Narayanan: I wouldn’t say that this is totally a media issue. There are issues that are coming up but I think both sides understand where we are and that’s the whole purpose in our prolonged negotiation.

Karan Thapar: So at the moment you are not worried or perturbed about this?

M K Narayanan: No, not at all.

Karan Thapar: People say, and I want to put this to you deliberately and bluntly, that India is reluctant to face up to China. That India thinks of excuses or justifications to explain away Chinese behaviour. Do we have a China complex particularly after the 1962 war?

M K Narayanan: I don’t think so. We are careful. I think we are careful partly because what happened in 1962, that we should not provoke a situation which we do not wish to have. I do not think anybody in India wishes to have a conflict with China and I think that goes also for China.

I think both sides are therefore careful but there are issues in the two countries. I don’t think we have all the answers to these issues but the whole purpose of dialogue is to see where the areas of congruence are and where are the differences.

Karan Thapar: But you’re saying to me quite clearly and I just want to repeat this that although there may be issues and although no one wants to provoke a situation that leads to another 1962 like conflict there is no sense of appeasement or hesitation or fear in India when dealing with China?

M K Narayanan: No, at least I am not aware of anything of this kind and may be, as I said, since I was there in 1962 I should be more conscious of that. Yes, we are careful and that’s important and imperative. We do not wish to get into a situation that we do not want to be in.

Karan Thapar: People also say that China is disdainful of India that China doesn’t treat India as an equal - is that your impression?

M K Narayanan: No, China certainly sees us as a rival. They wish to be numero uno in this part of the world. I think the more the rest of the world sees India as a rising power, more importantly as a democratic power, as a country with a tremendous future in terms of not merely its GDP growth but the fact that it is a young population and a tremendous intellectual capability, therefore there is rivalry.

Karan Thapar: But no disdain from the Chinese?

M K Narayanan: Nobody can disdain a country like India. I think it is important - today India cannot be disdained.

CNN-IBN

sum · Post by **sum** » 22 Sep 2009 17:51

Yes sir, even the Nigerians deserve some apology. But what about to India? Well, there is no consequence for anyone to tarnish India's name and no one worries about the consequences. Ah, India would be wined and dined at the high table anytime now.

Cant believe that we have managed to make a country of our size/stature as a doormat in international politics...

Even that needs some skill. Wonder if even Timbuktu takes us seriously anymore (other than fearing the dreaded dossiers which our babus love throwing at all and sundry)

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Sep 2009 19:33

The beauty of MKN's Orwellian "Newspeak",echoed by the meliflulous voice of our "Foreign Nightingale",sorry For.Sec., is that "this year,increase in incurions have not taken place..."
This is simply scandalous because the statement admits that incursions ARE taking place! Why should they take place at all? For how long have they taken place? Have we countered these incursions at all? Why isn't a single newschannel focussing upon this point that the incursions all seem to be one way traffic.Possession is 9/10ths of the law and China has just won a major diplomatic victory at the ADB which cancelled the loan for Aru.Pradesh,thanks to our non-violent method of dealing with the Chinese.China respects only a hard ,unyeilding,immovable opponent,one who will not fear to fight with every drop of blood in defence of every inch of his homeland.This should be the attitude of the GOI and anything less is the equivalent of handing over Indian territory to an enemy,tantamount to treason

If any politico or babu of India says that it is OK for the Chinks to cross into Indian territory at will without a valid visa,just because the boundary is "disputed",then it's open season for Pak to undertake as many Kargils as they want without India even allowed to piss at them in reply!We might as well hand over Kasab as a gesture of goodwill to Pak to promote neighbourly relations,and give Dawood Ibrahim,Generals Musharrat and Zia (posthumously) the Bharat Ratna!

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 22 Sep 2009 19:45

It seems it is time to say good bye to Arunachal Pradesh. It was nice having it in India. We wish it all the best in its future endeavors. Our best wishes.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 22 Sep 2009 20:00

Ramana garu, if I thought it would make one iota of a difference I would gladly write to the editor. However it will not. After China-Pakistan, I despise the UQ more than any other country on this planet. I cannot recall in the history of intelligent life on this planet, another instance when so few people were responsible for so much misery across the globe.

I buy nothing British and will never step foot in that country. The EIF clause of the shitty bitty was promulgated by our Chinese blothers and none other than the UQ. They can't stand the thought of SDREs having their own nukes while both their nukes and SLBMs are made in the USA. While people on this forum were cheering, I was fuming when the IAF bought the Hawk from Bae. Anyway sorry for the off topic rant.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 22 Sep 2009 20:17

We lost Lop Nor, Tibet, Kailash, Mansarover...trend has to reverse.

fter traveling for seventeen days, about 1,500 le, they arrived at the country of Shan-shan, today's Lop-Nor, which was a thriving oasis at that time. Fa-hsien reports:
"This land is rugged and barren...The king of this country has received the Faith, and there are some four thousand and more priests, all belonging to the Lesser Vehicle, but all practice the religion of India".

http://www.silk-road.com/artl/fahsien.shtml

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 22 Sep 2009 21:02

tejas wrote:Ramana garu, if I thought it would make one iota of a difference I would gladly write to the editor. However it will not. After China-Pakistan, I despise the UQ more than any other country on this planet. I cannot recall in the history of intelligent life on this planet, another instance when so few people were responsible for so much misery across the globe.

{And gotten away with it scott free, as far as I can tell.}

I buy nothing British and will never step foot in that country.

{I can understand the buy nothing Brutish part, but never set foot in that utopia? Why not?}

Tejas...my long lost birader! Kahan they tum itne din?

/Manmohan desai style (kya tum bhi kumbh mele mein bichad gaye?)

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 22 Sep 2009 21:37

Hari birader, while I chose a nice Gujarti name like Tejas, I am actually from Andhra and don't understand Hindi. I choose not to step foot in UQ ( I live in Umrikah, due to my parents emigrating) as I do not wish to support their tourist industry.