Should we discontinue EVMs?

vhkprasad · Post by **vhkprasad** » 22 Sep 2009 01:51

Below are the links I referred..shall update in detail when i get some free time

http://egovstandards.gov.in/Policy_Open_Std_review

http://www.scribd.com/doc/20020855/EVM- ... s-answered

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 22 Sep 2009 07:37

Thanks prasad for the links. A lot of new info is obtained from the RTI replies.

1. BEL and ECIL does it independently.
2. BEL uses Microchip controller. ECIL says Microchip and Renesas, but I haven't seen a pin compatible common product, so I believe ECIL uses Renesas controllers for their product.
3. BEL manufactures the EVMS in the Bangalore complex. It is where they make all the defense product.
4. ECIL have only one manufacturing complex in Hyderabad, which also manufactures for Defense, hence of high security.

3 and 4 would eliminate any chance of chip replacement in stores for sure.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 22 Sep 2009 10:25

vhkprasad wrote: ...

http://www.scribd.com/doc/20020855/EVM- ... s-answered

The above URL says chip is made by a US company called Microchip.

I found following company named as "Microchip". Is this the same company?

http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcpl ... &nodeId=64

As a trivia information, the CEO of the company is NRI

http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcpl ... &nodeId=64

Steve Sanghi, President, Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of the Board

Mr. Sanghi was named the President of Microchip in August 1990, Chief Executive Officer in October 1991 and the Chairman of the Board of Directors in October 1993. Before joining the Company, Mr. Sanghi was Vice President of Operations at Waferscale Integration, Inc., a semiconductor company, from 1988 to 1990. Mr. Sanghi was employed by Intel Corporation from 1978 to 1988, where he held various positions in management and engineering, the most recent serving as General Manager of Programmable Memory Operations. Mr. Sanghi holds a Masters of Science degree in Electrical and Computer Engineering from the University of Massachusetts and a Bachelor of Science degree in Electronics and Communication from Punjab University, India.

The company's revenue is about $220 million or Rs 1100 cr (taking $1 = Rs 50).

I am NOT making allegation that CIA/Sonia paid their annual revenue and got duplicate chips made which had trojan in them. But given that revenue is small Rs 1100 cr (small by CIA/Sonia standard), getting such duplicate chips would be no big deal for either of them.

Now I am NOT sure which company makes EVM chips. And I am also not sure if Microchip stated in RTI answer is same as company I am talking about. But here are some rather interesting links on Microchip company.

http://www.forbes.com/2007/10/09/microc ... ove_google

Another interesting link

Microchip's Credit Crunch Crisis
.....

What do semiconductors and the United States housing market have in common? Ask Microchip Technology, a semiconductor maker, which on Monday blamed weak sales on the sagging housing market, when it announced its preliminary second-quarter results were below prior guidance.

This is not the first time Microchip (nasdaq: MCHP - news - people ) has pointed fingers when faced with an earnings miss. In the second-quarter of 2007 the company blamed the military-led coup in Thailand on the company’s inability to meet demand since the company operates its primary assembly and test facility in Bangkok. Microchip predicted flat sales for the September quarter due to the state of emergency in the country. Some analysts say the firm's scapegoating is a way for management to avoid blame for issues plaguing the company. ..... Steve Sanghi, Microchip’s president, said that the company was “adversely impacted” by the downturn in the U.S. housing market and a decline in consumer spending.

==========

Replacing boxes containing chips: (in 5 TRIVIALLY easy steps)

Step-1 : BEL Chief and Banglore Director start a new project called XYZ and place an order to get 15 boxes of microchips.

Step-2 : The store person ensures that those boxes are placed close to 10-15 boxes containing EVM CPUs

Step-3 : The EVM chips are tested and approved. Lock bit is then set

Step-4 : And just before they were to be dispatched to CPU making units, the store chief swaps them with boxes meant for project XYZ. Swapping 15 boxes --- 8 minutes.

Step-5 : Later, project XYZ is canceled or the chips brought for project XYZ are called inferior and sent back and destroyed. So the actual EVM chips are destroyed and replacement chips go in the EVM PCB.

Now security guards dont have faintest clue of what each boxes have. And they sure dont test chips at gate level every time chips go in and go out. Once the chips were tested, the PCB making unit will not test the chips again at gate level or even test the ROM code (as lock bits are not set) or even measure power consumption at micro-amp level. Once chips go on PCB, one does only functional testing and nothing more.

So I need only 4-5 people inside BEL to swap the boxes.

And there are many ways to swap boxes inside store rooms. I dont want to discuss such "high tech and high IQ" projects anymore. I am assuming that boxes can be replaced with TRIVIAL ease when top guys decide and you guys can make any claims about "impossibility" of swapping some boxes inside store rooms, even if BEL top guys agree.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 22 Sep 2009 11:46

Yes, that's Microchip Technologies all right. They were a spinoff of General Instruments and well known for their PIC and dsPIC series of processors. It may seem incredible to some people used to their high-end workstattions, but Microchip's 8-bit processors from the early 70s are still in demand. What is nice about PICs is that they can run on pretty low power requirements and their processors are darned tough (Friend told me of one that was doing some data collection in the back of a train that got in a collision with another train and everything was smashed, except the darn PIC, which still continued to run!) These days, they're losing a bit to Atmel though.

By the way, that $220 million that you quoted is quarterly revenue, not annual. Here's their financial statements:
http://www.google.com/finance?client=ob&q=NASDAQ:MCHP
They have a market cap of $4.97 billion.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 22 Sep 2009 12:44

Dileep wrote: Rhetoric apart, it is not easy to maintain secrecy in such a setup, even with govt manipulating people. In fact, the 'government' can directly control the appointment of the DC and ADM. The staff appointment goes through the regular system, and it is tough to control.

All it takes is one peon or one clerk to blow the cover.

BEL is a company, not a govt department. There are no 'transfer' of obedient people. It is almost impossible to select specific reliable people to form the team without making a scandal. With ECIL also doing it independently doubles the problem.

In fact the moment any indication of 'chamchas' getting into the EVM project, all others will put them under a microscope, and dig up their past to see if there is a scandal. That is a good deterrence.

Then, on top of all, the source once created is stored forever. ANY time in future, someone takes a look at it, the corrupt code can be seen. How are those chamchas going to explain it?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

I am not sure about that allegation. My take is that the QC should be checking the chips by sample.

Not much left to debate in terms of technicalities.

Ultimately, it boils down to whether you want to trust a small number of individuals who are appointees of a corrupt government, or whether you want a transparent system that is monitored by the People themselves.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 22 Sep 2009 12:52

Rahul Mehta wrote: So now how do we citizens of India resolve this debate? Any suggestions?

One could start by asking the states to pass resolutions in the assemblies asking the EC to use paper ballots. This may be possible in states with BJP and Left governments.

If that doesn't work, state governments should conduct referendums after conducting an education campaign about the pitfalls of EVMs and the antecedents of the individuals serving on the Election Commission.

Should go on increasing the popular pressure in a graduated manner. There is a small window of opportunity before all anti-EVM people are squeezed out.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 22 Sep 2009 15:44

Rahul Mehta wrote: Step-1 : BEL Chief and Banglore Director start a new project called XYZ and place an order to get 15 boxes of microchips.

Impossible. You can't just bring in a new project just like that. There is a system for product introduction, involving the engineering, planning and logistics groups.

Material is ordered by the purchase officer, at the advice of the planning manager, based on the production plan, based on the MRP planning, which derives its input from the bill of materials created by the engineering group and the stock statement from stores.

The 15 boxes == 15,000 chips == 15,000 of the fictious product. Where is the project documents? Where is the PO for the units? Where is the market projection?

It would be easier to smuggle the chips in.

So I need only 4-5 people inside BEL to swap the boxes.

Blown into pieces yet again!

vhkprasad · Post by **vhkprasad** » 22 Sep 2009 21:06

Guys,

My purpose of providing the links is not to debate on assumed conspiracies, There is no need of any high level conspiracy to rig these machines, A simple board level swapping could go undetected with the present checks and balances adopted by the Election commission. There are about 15 lakh EVMs manufactured by these PSUs and delivered directly to the District electoral officers and in turn a functionality test conducted to certify the machines by these officials, later they are directly deployed to elections. The randomization process is a bid farce as it happens with in the district(Refer to RO manual in ECI website) most of the times. The technicians used for the first level check(checking the EVMs before election) are supposed to be engineers from ECIL and BEL but it looks lot of temporary employees involved in this operations. Thus exposed EVMs are always prone to manipulation with the help of corrupt officials (refer the recent incident at vikasnagar-dehradun).

Lets discuss on the up-gradations and precautions required to make these machines fool proof rather debating on hypothetical analysis and defending logics. I am impressed with the logical skills of the people in this forum and joined to share my experience.

I shall provide more authentic documents related to these EVMs provided the debate goes constructive rather destructive.. An argument should not be for the sake of allegation/criticism.

Hope I didn't hurt anybody.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 22 Sep 2009 22:09

Rahul Mehta: Step-1 : BEL Chief and Banglore Director start a new project called XYZ and place an order to get 15 boxes of microchips.

Dileep: Impossible. You can't just bring in a new project just like that. There is a system for product introduction, involving the engineering, planning and logistics groups. Material is ordered by the purchase officer, at the advice of the planning manager, based on the production plan, based on the MRP planning, which derives its input from the bill of materials created by the engineering group and the stock statement from stores. The 15 boxes == 15,000 chips == 15,000 of the fictious product. Where is the project documents? Where is the PO for the units? Where is the market projection?

By labeling a project a top secret and urgent, BEL chief can get any project started and put it on fast track, and get the purchases done. Whether boxes are 10 or 100 it doesnt matter --- the store chief can get them put close to the rack where boxes containing EVM chips are. And then right after chip testing is over and lock bits are set, he can replace the boxes. Replacing 1 box would need no more than 2 minutes. So 2 people can replace 100 boxes in 2 hours. He can do it personally with some semi-literate assistant who doesnt have faintest clue of what he is doing.

Blown into pieces yet again!

Yeah. You are an expert in box placements as well .

=================

vhkprasad wrote:Guys,

There is no need of any high level conspiracy to rig these machines, A simple board level swapping could go undetected with the present checks and balances adopted by the Election commission. There are about 15 lakh EVMs manufactured by these PSUs and delivered directly to the District electoral officers and in turn a functionality test conducted to certify the machines by these officials, later they are directly deployed to elections. The randomization process is a bid farce as it happens with in the district(Refer to RO manual in ECI website) most of the times. ...

Pro-EVMs claim that all EVMs are 100% paak as there is no way to replace EVM, no way replace boards and no way to even replace 50-100 boxes anywhere in the whole chain. And randomization, even if farce is OK if all EVMs are paak.

=====

Lets discuss on the up-gradations and precautions required to make these machines fool proof rather debating on hypothetical analysis and defending logics. I am impressed with the logical skills of the people in this forum and joined to share my experience. I shall provide more authentic documents related to these EVMs provided the debate goes constructive rather destructive.. An argument should not be for the sake of allegation/criticism.

I have shown that by replacing 10-50-N boxes inside BEL stores, one can put a trojan inside 1000s and lakhs of EVMs. Of course, it would need co-operation for top guys in BEL. And I have shown how a trojan written in a specific way can add 100-20seats to Congress. (see http://rahulmehta.com/evm1.pdf for description of the trojan . So IMO, if top guys sell out, there is NOTHING that can make EVMs secure. So IMO, we have to say bye bye to EVM and bring a stamper with built in 20 second delay and paper ballots.

====

Pranav,

BJP leaders are not anti-EVM anymore. He who rigged EVM has tamed them. CPM has also been tamed. The burden of proof that majority of citizens dont want EVM is on us. No wonder why pro-EVM oppose systematic procedures to take feedback from citizens, but nevertheless, we need to prove that citizens dont want EVMs. And for this, you can count SCjs, BJP and CPM out and of course Congress supports EVMs.

===

Tanaji,

You oppose disclosing gate level design, ROM code to public and you also oppose letting citizens buy EVMs for Rs 10000 a piece (which is the cost price). You want "select" group of (PwC?) auditors to audit the code. That speaks volumes about kind of transparency you want or rather do not want. And to cover your anti-transperancy stand, you divert the discussion by calling me liar. So for a change, can you stop cursing me and explain why you oppose disclosing tech details to public? Why YOU oppose letting citizens get EVMs for cost price?

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 22 Sep 2009 22:17

Rahul Mehta: So now how do we citizens of India resolve this debate? Any suggestions?

Pranav: 1. One could start by asking the states to pass resolutions in the assemblies asking the EC to use paper ballots. This may be possible in states with BJP and Left governments.

2. If that doesn't work, state governments should conduct referendums after conducting an education campaign about the pitfalls of EVMs and the antecedents of the individuals serving on the Election Commission.

3. Should go on increasing the popular pressure in a graduated manner. There is a small window of opportunity before all anti-EVM people are squeezed out.

1. If one has rigged EVMs, that "one" isnt Sonia, but that "one" is USG = CIA = MNCs = Christianists. They own over 75% of BJP top now and some 95% of CPM top. So count both parties out.

2. I agree, but if you notice, all pro-EVMs people are opposed to the idea of gathering citizens' opinion on EVM issue. They even oppose registering citizens' YES/NO for Rs 3/- fee and oppose the idea that anti-EVM affidavits from citizens be placed on PM's website. I suspect that their opposition of registering citizens' opinions via YES/NO collection or via referendum is because they are scared that most citizens oppose EVMs. But given that SCjs supports EVMs, ECI supports EVMs, PM and major MPs support EVMs, the burden of proof is on us. One good thing is that citizens of India have NO faith in experts and people with 4 digit IQ. And as skeletons from Pokharan-2 come out, the namesake faith in "experts" has further vanished. So citizens wont give a damn about Indirsen committee and plethora of "expert reports" which are based on demo and presentations.

3. How do we increase public pressure? I am already conducting small time meets and will soon give out pamphlets against EVMs. What more can be done?

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 23 Sep 2009 00:52

Pranav wrote:Not much left to debate in terms of technicalities.

Please explain what do you mean by "technicalities"?

[*] Does it mean that there is no question that an EVM can be hacked? - Ofcourse! There is NO machine or apparatus in the world which cannot be hacked.

[*] Does it mean that there is no question that an EVM can be hacked in a way which:
(a) Will go unnoticed by other personnel involved.
(b) Will be effective enough to influence a general election.
(c) Will be robust and fast enough to ensure (b) and (a) above respectively.

In that case the answer is NO! - why? Because all I have seen from RM ji & co. is furious hand waving but no proof of how it will all be done. Airily dismissing everything as trivial does not make it so. Ignoring details and broad brushing concepts (and even worse being deliberately ignorant as if ignorance is bliss) as he is indulging in, is beyond contempt and the only thing proved is that RM is NOT serious about the EVM issue or its resolution - all he cares for is rabble rousing to gain some recognition for himself and trying to prove he is right despite all facts to the contrary. period.

Pranav wrote: Ultimately, it boils down to whether you want to trust a small number of individuals who are appointees of a corrupt government, or whether you want a transparent system that is monitored by the People themselves.

Leaving aside validity or lack thereof of all claims of EVM tampering, please give me an example where you have a system which is monitored and run by the People themselves and works perfectly on a large scale? This vision of self-governance by the People where the People will run all affairs of the country and everything will be 400% perfect onlee is a great utopian vision but unfortunately not practical unless humans get their instincts rewired. The goal of this debate should be to find a practical solution NOT to indulge in fantasies - otherwise corrupt netas win and one corrupt guy just gets replaced by a smarter corrupt guy.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 23 Sep 2009 00:58

vhkprasad wrote: Lets discuss on the up-gradations and precautions required to make these machines fool proof rather debating on hypothetical analysis and defending logics. I am impressed with the logical skills of the people in this forum and joined to share my experience.

prasad,

Till now I have seen no evidence of any practical way to hack an Indian EVM in order to influence a large scale election without getting noticed or caught - this includes the evidence reviewed from the fella who hacked the US EVM (his response is quoted on this thread). That being said, yes there is always a scope to improve security and integrity of the process - RM ji thinks processes are BS and everyone should just indulge in a free-for-all but then he doesn't realize that if that were the case, he would not have the luxury to sit here debating for hours or making pamphlets...he would be too busy fighting chaos in his own personal life!

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 23 Sep 2009 01:07

Rahul Mehta wrote: Pro-EVMs claim that all EVMs are 100% paak as there is no way to replace EVM, no way replace boards and no way to even replace 50-100 boxes anywhere in the whole chain. And randomization, even if farce is OK if all EVMs are paak.

The key thing is not the replacement but rather to do the replacement in a way such that:
1) It is not detected
2) It is done efficiently enough on a scale large enough to rig a large scale election.

And since you seem so confident of replacing boxes, checking chips and switching stuff - why don't you do a small hands-on test involving 6 boxes and let us know the results. After all dont you have friends in the ASIC business? - try replacing their companies chips with their help without their other employees noticing. Do it and let me know how it goes - till then stop claiming you have proved blah blah since you have merely "claimed" without evidence and far from proven anything. Claims are NOT equivalent to Proofs - as an engineer you should know that (ofcourse as a neta you may choose to ignore that).

Rahul Mehta wrote: I have shown that by replacing 10-50-N boxes inside BEL stores, one can put a trojan inside 1000s and lakhs of EVMs. Of course, it would need co-operation for top guys in BEL. And I have shown how a trojan written in a specific way can add 100-20seats to Congress. (see http://rahulmehta.com/evm1.pdf for description of the trojan . So IMO, if top guys sell out, there is NOTHING that can make EVMs secure. So IMO, we have to say bye bye to EVM and bring a stamper with built in 20 second delay and paper ballots.

Repeating that you have shown blah blah does not make it so. You have shown absolutely nothing - all I have seen from you is hand waving and strawmen - Absolutely NO proof! Please look up a dictionary to see what the meaning of proof is (after all didn't you claim your English is weak?). And as regards your stamper and camera rig, please explain how they suddenly become foolproof given that according to you it is trivial to hack and manipulate all sorts of machinery with trivial ease?

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 23 Sep 2009 06:10

Raja Bose wrote: [*] Does it mean that there is no question that an EVM can be hacked in a way which:
(a) Will go unnoticed by other personnel involved.
(b) Will be effective enough to influence a general election.
(c) Will be robust and fast enough to ensure (b) and (a) above respectively.

In that case the answer is NO!

That is your take on it. Other readers will form their own views. It has already been shown what can be done with the complicity of the software team at BEL, and on a per-constituency basis, the involvement of the DEO and the handful of others needed to provide access to the store room. Each one of these individuals are appointees of the regime.

Leaving aside validity or lack thereof of all claims of EVM tampering, please give me an example where you have a system which is monitored and run by the People themselves and works perfectly on a large scale?

What I support is paper ballots in a transparent ballot box + real time webcam feed (either multicasting to the internet or, in very remote areas, displayed onto a screen visible to the public outside the booth).

Even if store room access is not available, EVMs can be rigged on a per-booth basis with the aid of a trustworthy returning officer. Or by putting a fake name on the voters' list, an agent can go as a voter and activate the rigging. The condition of the voters' list is quite pathetic - there are no photos in many cases, and there are a large number of Bangladeshis and other foreigners on the list. This method of rigging is virtually undetectable.

It is far more difficult to get away with rigging of paper ballots, even without video, because the whole process is being observed by the rival candidates' polling agents.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 23 Sep 2009 06:41

vhkprasad wrote: My purpose of providing the links is not to debate on assumed conspiracies.

Good. Even though it was fun originally, RM's arguments started to be a bit stale, like a Suresh Gopi movie. A good debate based on actual technical and logistic possibulities are always welcome.

There is no need of any high level conspiracy to rig these machines, A simple board level swapping could go undetected with the present checks and balances adopted by the Election commission.

The board replacement argument was refuted in the beginning itself, because:

1. Getting the huge quantities of the boards manufactured.
2. Doing the process of replacing the boards on a massive scale.
3. Keeping it secret, without any trace of a leak.

We can debate the mode of attack on its merits.

There are about 15 lakh EVMs manufactured by these PSUs and delivered directly to the District electoral officers and in turn a functionality test conducted to certify the machines by these officials, later they are directly deployed to elections. The randomization process is a bid farce as it happens with in the district(Refer to RO manual in ECI website) most of the times.

Why do you call it a farce?

The technicians used for the first level check(checking the EVMs before election) are supposed to be engineers from ECIL and BEL but it looks lot of temporary employees involved in this operations. Thus exposed EVMs are always prone to manipulation with the help of corrupt officials (refer the recent incident at vikasnagar-dehradun).

The first level check do not involve opening of the EVM enclosure. The only thing they do is to check the tamper evident seals on the enclosure, and check the functionality. I agree that IF the boards are replaced and the seals are replaced, they will not detect it.

Lets discuss on the up-gradations and precautions required to make these machines fool proof rather debating on hypothetical analysis and defending logics.

The prime allegation being discussed is there WAS indeed widespread (200 constituencies) manipulation of the EVMS. That is why all these conspiracy theories being discussed.

The question of improvements is always welcome, but it got drowned in the outlandish conspiracy theories.

I am impressed with the logical skills of the people in this forum and joined to share my experience.

Yes, it was a life changing revelation, dealing with RM's "logic".

I shall provide more authentic documents related to these EVMs provided the debate goes constructive rather destructive.. An argument should not be for the sake of allegation/criticism.

I totally agree.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 23 Sep 2009 06:47

Rahul Mehta wrote: 1. If one has rigged EVMs, that "one" isnt Sonia, but that "one" is USG = CIA = MNCs = Christianists. They own over 75% of BJP top now and some 95% of CPM top. So count both parties out.

2. I agree, but if you notice, all pro-EVMs people are opposed to the idea of gathering citizens' opinion on EVM issue. They even oppose registering citizens' YES/NO for Rs 3/- fee and oppose the idea that anti-EVM affidavits from citizens be placed on PM's website. I suspect that their opposition of registering citizens' opinions via YES/NO collection or via referendum is because they are scared that most citizens oppose EVMs. But given that SCjs supports EVMs, ECI supports EVMs, PM and major MPs support EVMs, the burden of proof is on us. One good thing is that citizens of India have NO faith in experts and people with 4 digit IQ. And as skeletons from Pokharan-2 come out, the namesake faith in "experts" has further vanished. So citizens wont give a damn about Indirsen committee and plethora of "expert reports" which are based on demo and presentations.

3. How do we increase public pressure? I am already conducting small time meets and will soon give out pamphlets against EVMs. What more can be done?

I think one should first prepare a power point presentation and also a 15-30 minute film. Make them available on the net and try to get it to spread virally. This presentation/film should be technically sound - try to involve people like Hari Prasad of NetIndia, who has staged EVM-rigging demos.

Then, get endorsements of specific prominent personalities, opinion leaders. There certainly are political forces who see themselves as victims of EVMs, so get their endorsements too. Much of the Indian media is not free, but it may be possible to get MSM coverage, especially if credible public figures are involved. See how the media had to cover the nuke test expose.

Then conduct a signature campaign - get the support of more than 50% of the voters. Post the signatures/thumbprints on the internet. There may be organizations and parties who are willing to go into the villages and mohallas to show the film to people who don't have net access, and get their support. Expose the undemocratic nature of forces supporting EVMs. Once politicians see where the public sympathies are more and more of them will jump onto the bandwagon.

Need to be careful about straw-man attacks and smearing. So, although political control of various organizations, including Church organizations, may be a reality, it may not be politic to use words like "Christianist". In any case it mis-characterizes the nature of the beast.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 23 Sep 2009 07:16

vhkprasad, are you Hari Prasad, the CEO of NetIndia, Hyderabad?

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 23 Sep 2009 07:22

Rahul Mehta wrote: By labeling a project a top secret and urgent, BEL chief can get any project started and put it on fast track, and get the purchases done. Whether boxes are 10 or 100 it doesnt matter --- the store chief can get them put close to the rack where boxes containing EVM chips are. And then right after chip testing is over and lock bits are set, he can replace the boxes. Replacing 1 box would need no more than 2 minutes. So 2 people can replace 100 boxes in 2 hours. He can do it personally with some semi-literate assistant who doesnt have faintest clue of what he is doing.

Any top secret, or urgent project needs to go through the procedures. It is IMPOSSIBLE to order tens of thousands of chips without due process.

Yeah. You are an expert in box placements as well .

I didn't expect you to give up this early.

Pro-EVMs claim that all EVMs are 100% paak as there is no way to replace EVM, no way replace boards and no way to even replace 50-100 boxes anywhere in the whole chain. And randomization, even if farce is OK if all EVMs are paak.

Rhetoric. All we are saying is that it is impossible to do those in massive scale, without anyone finding it out.

I have shown that by replacing 10-50-N boxes inside BEL stores, one can put a trojan inside 1000s and lakhs of EVMs. Of course, it would need co-operation for top guys in BEL. And I have shown how a trojan written in a specific way can add 100-20seats to Congress. (see http://rahulmehta.com/evm1.pdf for description of the trojan . So IMO, if top guys sell out, there is NOTHING that can make EVMs secure. So IMO, we have to say bye bye to EVM and bring a stamper with built in 20 second delay and paper ballots.

All these are repeatedly proven to be incorrect, yet you still bring those up, again and again.

And you missed the subtle mention of 'conspiracy' by Mr. Prasad as well.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 23 Sep 2009 07:25

Rahul Mehta wrote: 1. If one has rigged EVMs, that "one" isnt Sonia, but that "one" is USG = CIA = MNCs = Christianists. They own over 75% of BJP top now and some 95% of CPM top. So count both parties out.

The only party that hasn't been corrupt yet is the RM cult party, naturally.

2. I agree, but if you notice, all pro-EVMs people are opposed to the idea of gathering citizens' opinion on EVM issue. They even oppose registering citizens' YES/NO for Rs 3/- fee and oppose the idea that anti-EVM affidavits from citizens be placed on PM's website. I suspect that their opposition of registering citizens' opinions via YES/NO collection or via referendum is because they are scared that most citizens oppose EVMs. But given that SCjs supports EVMs, ECI supports EVMs, PM and major MPs support EVMs, the burden of proof is on us. One good thing is that citizens of India have NO faith in experts and people with 4 digit IQ. And as skeletons from Pokharan-2 come out, the namesake faith in "experts" has further vanished. So citizens wont give a damn about Indirsen committee and plethora of "expert reports" which are based on demo and presentations.

Of course, you would do anything, including overt cheating (see my post earlier here for proof) to further your agenda.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 23 Sep 2009 08:05

Here is Indiresan clearly claiming that BEL and ECIL do not have the ability to read the binary on the chips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWrVs_cbCus (watch from 1:50 onwards)

So that's another issue that is now settled. The testing is functional testing only. About 5 software people have access to the source code, and nobody at the assembly plant has access to the binary, let alone the source code.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 23 Sep 2009 11:13

Pranav wrote: So that's another issue that is now settled. The testing is functional testing only. About 5 software people have access to the source code, and nobody at the assembly plant has access to the binary, let alone the source code.

No. What Prof Indiresan said is "Even BEL and ECIL can not READ he program". This is true, AFTER setting the security bit.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 23 Sep 2009 11:22

Pranav wrote: That is your take on it. Other readers will form their own views. It has already been shown what can be done with the complicity of the software team at BEL, and on a per-constituency basis, the involvement of the DEO and the handful of others needed to provide access to the store room. Each one of these individuals are appointees of the regime.

Yes it is my take on it - every post here right now is someone's personal take and not an opinion of the masses. What I do have an issue is the above bolded phrase - I see people like RM here repeatedly use the word "have shown this and that" when absolutely nothing has been shown. All that one sees is hypothetical situations, most of which are outlandish and ridiculous. Even if they were not outlandish, a hypothesis never equals proof, NOT even in theoritical sciences! Hence, repeating mere hypothesis as claims of proof is nothing but misleading.

Pranav wrote: What I support is paper ballots in a transparent ballot box + real time webcam feed (either multicasting to the internet or, in very remote areas, displayed onto a screen visible to the public outside the booth).

And how is the webcam or its feed not tamperable. Considering that the discussion here is that fabrication, replacement and tampering of processors is trivial, what security mechanism does a webcam's circuitry or its network feed or its connected public display have which makes it more secure?

Pranav wrote: It is far more difficult to get away with rigging of paper ballots, even without video, because the whole process is being observed by the rival candidates' polling agents.

Yet we have seen rigging throughout our country's history when only paper ballots were used. It has already been shown in practice that paper ballot based voting can be rigged however, it has NOT yet been shown in practice that EVM based voting can be rigged. That is the simple difference. If one can show that EVM can be exploited and satisfy those criteria I had listed, then yes it is vulnerable - why, because then there is proof (as opposed to someone's opinion and conjectures). Otherwise, just relying on mere assumptions and strawmen with plausible sounding yet technically bogus claims is just misleading the commons.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 23 Sep 2009 11:37

Raja Bose wrote: And how is the webcam or its feed not tamperable. Considering that the discussion here is that fabrication, replacement and tampering of processors is trivial, what security mechanism does a webcam's circuitry or its network feed or its connected public display have which makes it more secure?

Webcam will show faces of voters as they vote. No way to fabricate that in real time! One could even allow candidates to set up their own cams if they want. The more scrutiny, the better! Furthermore, even without cams we are better off than with EVMs, where the rigging is unnoticable.

Yet we have seen rigging throughout our country's history when only paper ballots were used. It has already been shown in practice that paper ballot based voting can be rigged however, it has NOT yet been shown in practice that EVM based voting can be rigged. That is the simple difference. If one can show that EVM can be exploited and satisfy those criteria I had listed, then yes it is vulnerable - why, because then there is proof (as opposed to someone's opinion and conjectures). Otherwise, just relying on mere assumptions and strawmen with plausible sounding yet technically bogus claims is just misleading the commons.

Yes, there has been rigging even with paper, but it is easily detected and repolls are held. How will you rig paper ballots without it being noticed by polling agents, who are nominated by the rival candidates?

On the other hand, if you want to have undetectable rigging, you need to go the EVM route. There is a huge amount of information about suspicious behavior of EVMs - see the presentation of Kirit Somayya, the link to which was recently posted. Conclusive proof is hard to obtain in a situation where the EC is stone-walling all requests for transparency.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 23 Sep 2009 11:43

OK. Source code does not go beyond 5 people. Personnel in the plant cannot read even the binary.

The chip is made by a small time sleazy Desi-owned outfit called Microchip, which is known for being in financial diffculties. (Good find, RM ji!) A good, cozy set-up, what?

Microchip's Credit Crunch Crisis
.....

What do semiconductors and the United States housing market have in common? Ask Microchip Technology, a semiconductor maker, which on Monday blamed weak sales on the sagging housing market, when it announced its preliminary second-quarter results were below prior guidance.

This is not the first time Microchip (nasdaq: MCHP - news - people ) has pointed fingers when faced with an earnings miss. In the second-quarter of 2007 the company blamed the military-led coup in Thailand on the company’s inability to meet demand since the company operates its primary assembly and test facility in Bangkok. Microchip predicted flat sales for the September quarter due to the state of emergency in the country. Some analysts say the firm's scapegoating is a way for management to avoid blame for issues plaguing the company. ..... Steve Sanghi, Microchip’s president, said that the company was “adversely impacted” by the downturn in the U.S. housing market and a decline in consumer spending.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 23 Sep 2009 12:56

Pranav wrote: The chip is made by a small time sleazy Desi-owned outfit called Microchip, which is known for being in financial diffculties. (Good find, RM ji!) A good, cozy set-up, what?

That is an absolutely fantastic interpretation!! Have you read the article? Have you researched Microchip before shooting your mouth off?

Microchip is a publicly traded US corporation. In FY2009, they recorded a sales of US$903 millions, with a net income of US$ 248.8 million. They gave 33.9 cents per share quarterly dividend in FY2009. The share closed at $27.5 with a market cap of 5.03 billion. P/E ratio 25.42

The article quoted talks about the reduction in profit of the company, and the reasons for that reduction. It is a routine for every company when the quarterly results are announced. They are in no financial trouble at all. They held $446 million in cash and 1.72 billion current assets at end of FY2009.

It is NOT a Desi company. It came into existence as a wholly owned subsidiary of General Instruments corporation in 1986. Are you making an allegation that a company whose chairman is a desi is by default "sleazy"?

FYI, the profile of Mr. Sanghi is given below.

Mr. Sanghi was named the President of Microchip in August 1990, Chief Executive Officer in October 1991, and the Chairman of the Board of Directors in October 1993.

In June 1995, Mr. Sanghi received an Arizona Entrepreneur of the Year award. He is co-author of the book “Driving Excellence: How the Aggregate System Turned Microchip Technology from a Failing Company to a Market Leader (Wiley; April 2006),” along with Michael J. Jones, Microchip’s former head of human resources.

Before joining the Company, Mr. Sanghi was Vice President of Operations at Waferscale Integration, Inc., a semiconductor company, from 1988 to 1990. Mr. Sanghi was employed by Intel Corporation from 1978 to 1988, where he held various positions in management and engineering, the most recent serving as General Manager of Programmable Memory Operations. Today, Mr. Sanghi is a member of the Board of Directors of Xyratex Ltd., a member of the Board of Directors of FIRST (For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology) Robotics, and a member of the Board of Trustees of Kettering University.

Mr. Sanghi holds a Masters of Science degree in Electrical and Computer Engineering from the University of Massachusetts, and a Bachelor of Science degree in Electronics and Communication from Punjab University, India.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 23 Sep 2009 14:17

Dileep wrote:Are you making an allegation that a company whose chairman is a desi is by default "sleazy"?

N.B.: The "sleaze" was a reference to the dubious reasons they have been putting out to justify their under-performance. It is unrelated to any Desi connections.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 23 Sep 2009 15:39

Pranav wrote:
Dileep wrote:Are you making an allegation that a company whose chairman is a desi is by default "sleazy"?
N.B.: The "sleaze" was a reference to the dubious reasons they have been putting out to justify their under-performance. It is unrelated to any Desi connections.

How do you know that is a dubious reason?

The article quotes an analyst "American Technology Research analyst Doug Freedman wonders why the company cannot offset the housing weakness in other areas that are thriving, such as personal computers, which have had stronger-than-expected sales, or handsets."

Shows the value of those analysts. Microchip products are not present in those markets. You can't drop what you are doing one day and start making something else the next day. With these kind of analysts, no wonder the US economy failed, but that is OT.

Domestic electronics use a lot of PIC controllers, so housing decline DOES affect Microchip. But that too is OT.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 24 Sep 2009 10:33

Pranav wrote: Webcam will show faces of voters as they vote. No way to fabricate that in real time! One could even allow candidates to set up their own cams if they want. The more scrutiny, the better!

Unfortunately it is trivial to bypass actual camera CCD array and insert fake footage. Considering that all mega corporations and their smaller OEMs have been subverted by CIA/Sonia & stooges, it is a trivial matter to manufacture cameras which look normal but on certain activation code (like wearing a shirt of a weird color) they trigger their hidden mode of fake operation. Hence, it doesn't matter if candidates are allowed to set up their own cams - after candidates have no way of checking if the cam works properly or not (the hidden functionality is only triggered for example, when one wears a shirt of the colour of the traditional desi tiranga underwear and sticks his tongue out simultaneously).

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 24 Sep 2009 10:40

Pranav wrote: The chip is made by a small time sleazy Desi-owned outfit called Microchip, which is known for being in financial diffculties. (Good find, RM ji!) A good, cozy set-up, what?

Hmm....small, sleazy, "desi-owned" indeed. The only thing I can say apart from

is that henceforth, please try to do your own research before making such ridiculous claims. Based on his past "smoking gun" findings on this thread, RM is not exactly a good source of well researched information; what he indulges in is commonly known in academic circles (and in the areas of computer science Google is famous for) as "cherry picking" and "data massaging".

It might interest you to know that in an average middle-class home in India today, you will probably have atleast 2-3 devices which use Microchip MCUs.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 24 Sep 2009 15:38

Raja Bose wrote:
Pranav wrote: Webcam will show faces of voters as they vote. No way to fabricate that in real time! One could even allow candidates to set up their own cams if they want. The more scrutiny, the better!
Unfortunately it is trivial to bypass actual camera CCD array and insert fake footage. Considering that all mega corporations and their smaller OEMs have been subverted by CIA/Sonia & stooges, it is a trivial matter to manufacture cameras which look normal but on certain activation code (like wearing a shirt of a weird color) they trigger their hidden mode of fake operation. Hence, it doesn't matter if candidates are allowed to set up their own cams - after candidates have no way of checking if the cam works properly or not (the hidden functionality is only triggered for example, when one wears a shirt of the colour of the traditional desi tiranga underwear and sticks his tongue out simultaneously).

Or even more insidious, hack the router from where the stream goes to remote users. So people on site get the correct video stream but every one else does not.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 24 Sep 2009 15:51

When we discuss the issues of election, we tend to forget the scale and scope of elections in India. The polling booths are to be arranged at all kinds of places, far and wide, across the face of this huge country. Most of the places won't have electricity, and those have, won't be reliable. Many won't have cell coverage either. The polling operation need to be managed with people who are not technically qualified, with minimum training. The equipment used should be rugged, and easy to use.

Get out from the cellphone/internet/airconditioned urban environment and see the big picture.

Camera, monitor, real time streaming etc are unviable. Even a punched paper tape (as I once proposed) is stretching things a bit.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 24 Sep 2009 16:23

Tanaji wrote: Or even more insidious, hack the router from where the stream goes to remote users. So people on site get the correct video stream but every one else does not.

If you hack the video stream in real time, how will you get the faces right? Also, there are ways to authenticate video streams.

In any case, paper is better than EVMs, even without cameras.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 24 Sep 2009 20:30

Pranav wrote:OK. Source code does not go beyond 5 people. Personnel in the plant cannot read even the binary.

The chip is made by a small time sleazy Desi-owned outfit called Microchip, which is known for being in financial diffculties. (Good find, RM ji!) A good, cozy set-up, what?

Re: The personnel in the plant can't read the binary: this has already been disproved multiple times and Mr. Mehta was even given links on how to do this + names of companies to do this (and he promptly ignored all the references and claimed it could be done for about 5 pages). You can read the details from around page 33 of this thread on how anyone can do this. Please don't repeat that assertion -- it doesn't make it any truer.

I already posted the financial details of Microchip right below Rahul Mehta's post. As you can see, he posted the quarterly revenue, not annual figures. I posted a link to the full financial of Microchip and also that they're a spinoff of General Instruments. If you dabble in electronics even casually (such as me, who does it sometimes as a hobby), you cannot fail to know about PIC chips. It is certainly not a small time sleazy desi-owned company like you state. Their chips are used in a variety of electronic products and you may have a few in your house without even knowing it. Incidentally, they've sold over 6 billion PIC chips (which makes it about 1 chip per every person on this planet!) Reference here.

Also speaking of BJP candidates being pro-paper ballots, I happened to talk to a relative of mine last week who was visiting my area. He was an elected MP for the BJP party and also served at the top leadership for that state (he retired this term and didn't contest the election). Guess what? He thought the EVMs were a good idea.

Also, this whole video streaming idea is impractical for coverage and bandwidth reasons. Maybe in the distant future it will become practical, but unfortunately it is impractical with the current (and near future) infrastructure.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 24 Sep 2009 21:16

Pranav wrote:
Tanaji wrote: Or even more insidious, hack the router from where the stream goes to remote users. So people on site get the correct video stream but every one else does not.
If you hack the video stream in real time, how will you get the faces right? Also, there are ways to authenticate video streams.

Because you bypass the CCD array - you are not exactly photo shopping faces in real time (though this is possible today using the GPGPUs). If all these EVM checksums, hashes and what-not can be defeated, so can video stream authentication since the latter is much weaker due to scalability reasons.

Pranav wrote: In any case, paper is better than EVMs, even without cameras.

Proof is what is required, not repetition of rhetoric. RM method of rhetoric repetition is not a valid form of proof!

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 24 Sep 2009 22:39

ArmenT wrote: Re: The personnel in the plant can't read the binary: this has already been disproved multiple times and Mr. Mehta was even given links on how to do this + names of companies to do this (and he promptly ignored all the references and claimed it could be done for about 5 pages). You can read the details from around page 33 of this thread on how anyone can do this. Please don't repeat that assertion -- it doesn't make it any truer.

The only official information we have, AFAIK, is from Indiresan, who says that the plant people cannot read the binary - for whatever reason. Maybe the people in the EVM group are not given the requisite equipment. Do you have any official information claiming that they do in fact read the binary?

Also, this whole video streaming idea is impractical for coverage and bandwidth reasons. Maybe in the distant future it will become practical, but unfortunately it is impractical with the current (and near future) infrastructure.

Video is an additional level of security, but is not absolutely essential.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 24 Sep 2009 22:43

Raja Bose wrote:
Pranav wrote: If you hack the video stream in real time, how will you get the faces right? Also, there are ways to authenticate video streams.
Because you bypass the CCD array - you are not exactly photo shopping faces in real time (though this is possible today using the GPGPUs). If all these EVM checksums, hashes and what-not can be defeated, so can video stream authentication since the latter is much weaker due to scalability reasons.

OK, you bypass the CCD. Then what? How do you create the videos of the residents of the constituency?

Raja Bose wrote:
Pranav wrote: In any case, paper is better than EVMs, even without cameras.
Proof is what is required, not repetition of rhetoric. RM method of rhetoric repetition is not a valid form of proof!

How will you rig paper ballots without the polling agents of the candidates noticing? Try answering that and then you'll realize why paper ballots are better.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 25 Sep 2009 01:47

Pranav wrote: OK, you bypass the CCD. Then what? How do you create the videos of the residents of the constituency?

Firstly, you don't need to create faces of actual residents but create generic enough faces. Why? - Because you dont have any authentication source to validate it against. Secondly video does not need to show someone's full on face....simply show it an an angle and nobody will suspect. In fact, will they call for a repoll because the camera did not show someone's face full-on (remember this is a video and not still photography hence frames are transient). And in case you do want to create fake videos of the actual residents, it is trivial! Use the voter id card records (which evil evil Chawla has sold to CIA) to texture map faces on 3d facial models - easily achieved using today's GPGPUs and based on actual real-time rendering that I have seen demo'ed live by Nvidia last year - very very realistic! When everything is trivial, there is no limits on what one can do! Damn, I love talking like RM!

Raja Bose wrote: How will you rig paper ballots without the polling agents of the candidates noticing? Try answering that and then you'll realize why paper ballots are better.

By the above statement, are you trying to suggest that none of the paper ballot elections in India throughout our 60+ year history have ever had any case of successful rigging (by successful I mean ones where rigging was done but no re-polling)? In that case I would like to invite you to the paradise we call Bihar and certain parts of West Bengal.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 25 Sep 2009 07:28

The prime reason I support EVMs is that it eliminates the rigging probability at the local level. That is the major concern, not a country wide coup, in a scenario more fantastic than my own spy story.

<100 posts to go for Oldie, BTW.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 25 Sep 2009 07:44

Raja Bose wrote:
Pranav wrote: OK, you bypass the CCD. Then what? How do you create the videos of the residents of the constituency?
Firstly, you don't need to create faces of actual residents but create generic enough faces. Why? - Because you dont have any authentication source to validate it against.

You do have photos of many of the voters on the voter's list, and you do have the people themselves.

Raja Bose wrote: By the above statement, are you trying to suggest that none of the paper ballot elections in India throughout our 60+ year history have ever had any case of successful rigging (by successful I mean ones where rigging was done but no re-polling)? In that case I would like to invite you to the paradise we call Bihar and certain parts of West Bengal.

Any debilities that paper ballots may have are also shared by EVMs, and EVMs additionally introduce their own debilities.

The "ballot box stuffing" phenomenon is easily prevented by keeping the slit on the ballot box of small size, keeping the ballot box under observation, and tallying the number of ballots at the end with the number of people who actually voted. Also, ballot papers have to signed by the returning officer to be valid, which is an additional level of security.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 25 Sep 2009 12:59

Pranav wrote: You do have photos of many of the voters on the voter's list, and you do have the people themselves.

And what are they going to do when the face of the voter actually gets texture mapped or made grainy enough to prevent a 100% positive id - have you seen what surveillance cam footage looks like? Morever, faking videos even ones showing authentic people is not a big deal anymore - just look at the fun Rooskies are having with some Amirkhan diplomat where they generated a video of him frolicking with a forbidden lady.

Pranav wrote: Any debilities that paper ballots may have are also shared by EVMs, and EVMs additionally introduce their own debilities.

Actually as Dileep stated, the EVM eliminates the grassroots methods of rigging which our netas have mastered so well. Hence, one is extremely suspicious of the real reasons why many netas (much bigger fish than RM) are

about the EVM.

Pranav wrote: The "ballot box stuffing" phenomenon is easily prevented by keeping the slit on the ballot box of small size, keeping the ballot box under observation, and tallying the number of ballots at the end with the number of people who actually voted. Also, ballot papers have to signed by the returning officer to be valid, which is an additional level of security.

Well, if it was so easy then why is there still rigging? The facts (not rhetoric, not theory, not my take or anybody's) as it stands today are: Paper ballot based voting has been conclusively shown to be have been rigged in actual elections whereas EVM based voting has not yet been conclusively shown to have been rigged in actual elections. Hence, if you want to show that EVM based voting has been rigged (and I am not saying it is or it is not), it has to be proved through sane scientific methods. Rhetoric, fantastic conspiracy theories and considering everybody under the sun corrupt is not what is considered acceptable proof.