MRCA News and Discussion

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 28 Sep 2009 16:21

PrithviRajChauhan wrote:
I am not sure if its a good idea of comparing a paper plane with Gripen. Just because both falls in Light Combat Aircraft category , we should not equate LCA with Gripen.

Well...Gripen may be ahead...I can't doubt it. But, I think it is potentially good to discuss the concerns of LCA... 1st of all LCA is the first Indian bird and a result of many years development...so in order to give a moral boost we must accept it the way it is coming...!!!

It will also ensure toughness in our fleet against any Sanctions.

I think feedback from LCA will solve many riddles for MCA ..and further development for fifth generations aircarfts.....!!!

I think we must remember a bottom line..."we can't keep on buying"...let me say "till the dooms day". We must develop our own technologies and infrastructure in order to match future challenges...!!

rahul_h · Post by **rahul_h** » 28 Sep 2009 16:29

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=11772

If any of the US company either Boeing or Lockheed martin won the MMRCA then how can any one believe that they will allow us full TOT or some part of it, assuming from the fact that US Government is not even in favour of allowing Lockheed to help Tejas development. Remember its the same Country which stopped assistance on LCA Development for several years and will continue for the coming years. We cant afford to trust this dynamic politics of US they can further delay the acquiring process of 126 fighter jets by 3-4 years more............& dont know what kind of spy gadgets will be installed on that machines.......

IN my opinion ----
MMRCA must be converted into 2 Separate strategic bids:

Rafale - 126 (7 squadrons)
MIG 35 - 90 (5 squadrons)

IAF is already familar with Mirage 2000 and MIg 29 and dont have any problem as they are the same aircraft which made paki f-16 out of the INdian airspace in Kargil war nd bot rafale and mig35 are derived from these 2 jets.

Now,Why Rafale
Strategy NO.1

Make dassault the winner in MMRCA and ask for heavy discounts with full equipped with avionics and weapons as well as TOT and supply the aircraft as early as possible,now how this can happen, Bluff dasault by saying they can be awarded with more 74 jets in the coming future if the above said requirements be fulfilled with no delays in process.

NO.2

Ask Sarkozy to put pressure on DCNS to speed up the Scorpene Submarine Project (Project 75A)

NO.3

Award DCNS the winner of Project 75B to build 6 more Submarines with AIP(Air independant propulsion) in France only not in INdia as 6 Submarines are already been built at MDL. THis will speed up the process of acquiring of Submarines.

REsult:
Put pressure on France in coming future not to deliver advance weapons to pakistan and help India develop Indigeneously.

MIG 35

Continue the love and affection with mikoyan gurevich the oldest and largest supplier of fighter jets to us. Award them to supply 90 Fighter jets with state of the art technology

Result:
Pakistan has ordered 36 J-10B(FC-20) from China to be delivered in 2014-2015 and the engine which powers these aircraft is AL-31F which is of Russian origin , China will have to get the permission from Russia to install these Engines in there Export verion of FC-20 to Pakistan. Here India can take Advantage by pressuring Russia not to allow the Engine to be installed on the jet as India is the the largest buyer of Russian defence equipments this can further delay the process of pakistan acquiring FC-20 for 3-4 years as China will find it very difficult to find another vendor or requesting Russia for the engine.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Sep 2009 17:00

Zounds ! Some varlets do my good name much harm,uttering such evil falsehoods that lusteth I after that old hag,that ancient poisonous she-devil,that wicked witch of the west,that fornicator with ungodly tribes,that poxed crone,that '70s harlot ridden by legions of evil wizards from east to west,bearing a flatulent,fraudulent epithet... that "Super-Horny"!
Nay,I do lust after her neither in the light of day nor in the darkness of night and my noble wick would scarce "rise" to the occassion should peformeth she even the dance of the seven veils as Salome did seduce that pillar of Jewish manhood, King Herod!

So too do I scorn that defanged "Viper" that mine mortal foe boasteth of.Her belly is cold and her flame scarcely flickers when she doth discard her ragged knickers!

Harken to these words too,thou mongrel maid of Europa,Britons,Teutons,Romans and Romanies were thy "four-fathers".My wicked wick mocks at thine poxed advances.Thou hast neither the grace,beauty,nor the tumbling antics and inner heat of a Moskva maiden.Begone!

Forsooth my little Viking beauty,Aryan shineth thy flesh and form.Strewth,my little filly,thou art pretty to behold with thine backside bent,haunches curvaceous and underbelly smelly that speak nobly of thine Aryan forefathers and Viking mothers.But dost thou have the stamina of a rampant Russe that raceth and tumbleth from dawn to dusk? I fear not.

Lust I confess doth my loins have in endless abundance for beauties from the Volga,the Moskva and the Seine.I will be a Slavic slave to a tumbling acrobat from Mother Russia,so too would I flirt with Parisien maidens from le Moulin Rouge and hold them in sweet entangling embrace, planting moist kisses upon their chesty "fruit" and seek out their secret pleasures with candour,valour and ardour...and how harder!

How doth I then choose between these two hearths of fire? I am inflamed with passion and my rampant,rapacious wick doth wish to doeth a trick or two...even three,four and more! Verily,verily I say unto thee,how can thou chooseth between Venus or Aphrodite,Lyudmila or Ondine?
With the wisdom of a Solomon,I chooseth. Giveth to me them both!!!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 28 Sep 2009 17:02

awesome !

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 28 Sep 2009 17:06

rahul_h wrote:
US Government is not even in favour of allowing Lockheed to help Tejas development.

Remember its the same Country which stopped assistance on LCA Development for several years and will continue for the coming years.

IN my opinion ----
MMRCA must be converted into 2 Separate strategic bids:

Rafale - 126 (7 squadrons)
MIG 35 - 90 (5 squadrons)

Well....Nice strategy...!!!

I am also in favor of any such deal....!!!

But as far Rafale concerns ...It (126 birds) will cost us around 190 m $ each...aftermath of Brazil deal .... which in turn will claim a whooping price tag of atleast 24b $.

the question is ...is country ready for such a deal...???

If Govt of India is ready to double the bounty... we can get a deal just in opposite figures....!

126-Mig -35s.
80 - Rafales.

Ans also...if some is gonna change basic nature of MMRCA... take my words of hitting at Tu-160.

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 28 Sep 2009 18:17

saptarishi wrote:mig-35 will be here in october after IAF is done with rafale,
i don't think eurofighter is as cheap as f/a-18 whose unit flyway cost is around 53 million dollars compared to 110-120 million dollars of eurofighter, eurofighter has a shorter life,, i dont't think iaf needs the high performance of eurofighter and mig-35 since it is already going to induct SU-30MKI and PAK-FA in large numbers, gripen will not win because of its proximity to LCA MK2 and also lack of political clout of the swedish,,porkis have the f-16 so no matter how much lockheed have upgraded the vipe or the super viper,,f-16 are f-16 india's biggest foe,so its between rafale and super hornet,i hope the government is clever enough to understand the controls US DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE has over arms exports,,so its rafale all the way ..only if rafale's cost was 20-30 million dollars,like lca and j-10.

my thinking is that only those fighter/weapons produced by single country will be bought so these are rafale,f18,mig35

no more f16 please

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 28 Sep 2009 18:24

jean M wrote:range extended by over 50% for future compatibility with new weapon systems like Meteor
- higher module reliability for reduced cost of ownership (no array overhaul required for 10 years)
- waveform agility for high-resolution synthetic aperture (SAR) imagery in air-to-ground mode and better resistance to jamming.

so the range should be 150km against 3^sq.
there is potential of rafales being sold in quantity of 200-250

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Sep 2009 19:18

If any of the US company either Boeing or Lockheed martin won the MMRCA then how can any one believe that they will allow us full TOT or some part of it, assuming from the fact that US Government is not even in favour of allowing Lockheed to help Tejas development.

1) Both the US vendors have stated what they can give, what they would like to give and what they cannot give. Bottom line is that they both (like all other vendors) have stated that they can and will meet the RFP. It appears that the RFP does not want/expect 100%/full ToT.
2) Coming to "US Government". Vishnu also alluded to this, but is there an awareness of how close the two nations have got? Specially in the defense area? This does not mean that there is absolute cooperation, etc.

BurhanGabaji · Post by **BurhanGabaji** » 28 Sep 2009 20:14

rahul_h wrote:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=11772

IN my opinion ----
MMRCA must be converted into 2 Separate strategic bids:

Rafale - 126 (7 squadrons)
MIG 35 - 90 (5 squadrons)

Freinds in this case i would like the deqal to be broken between Super hornet with 75 nos and Mig 35 with 125 nos.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Sep 2009 20:54

give all orders to one.. a new one, that is supposed to last longer than current beauties.

follow the upgrade path to those smokey under bellies. the mig35 can follow that path, and still we can show some future for them., for having maintained some relationship.

the best long term plan would be that aids in LCA, MCA, pakfa etc. nothing beats EADS for now., and second comes Rafale due to their political nature.

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 28 Sep 2009 21:03

to err is human ,to forgive is divine

rahul m,
philip,
nrao

here is the guy, who committed the abominable offenCe of defaming the 3 patriots of BR.

rahul m wants lca mk2 in favour of mmrca and mca in favour of pak-fa
philip sir wants the rafale
and nrao the f-17 [16+18/2]

"Pardonnez-moi, monsieur .........but its rafale ,the french bird

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 28 Sep 2009 21:56

Aryan shineth thy flesh and form.Strewth,my little filly,thou art pretty to behold with thine backside bent,haunches curvaceous and underbelly smelly that speak nobly of thine Aryan forefathers and Viking mothers

Blasphemy!

Latest news in, the Dravidian parties are against the Moskva Maiden MIG 35 due to its "Aryan" roots.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 28 Sep 2009 22:25

Yogi_G wrote: Latest news in, the Dravidian parties are against the Moskva Maiden MIG 35 due to its "Aryan" roots.

something beyond my understanding..!!!

can someone explain..!!!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Sep 2009 23:25

saptarishi wrote:to err is human ,to forgive is divine

rahul m,
philip,
nrao

here is the guy, who committed the abominable offenCe of defaming the 3 patriots of BR.

rahul m wants lca mk2 in favour of mmrca and mca in favour of pak-fa
philip sir wants the rafale
and nrao the f-17 [16+18/2]

"Pardonnez-moi, monsieur .........but its rafale ,the french bird

will the manuals come in English or at least properly spelled French?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Sep 2009 23:26

Baldev ji,

How many T/R modules on MiG-35 AESA?

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 29 Sep 2009 00:05

NRao wrote: How many T/R modules on MiG-35 AESA?

Sir...with all due respect i doubt motive of the question..!!!

but as far i know The radar uses 680 4 channel transceiver modules with a power output of 5 watts per channel in its export version.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 29 Sep 2009 02:31

Well, thanks for that info.

Here is a rather dated article (2007), but does have some interesting info:

AESA Radars

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 29 Sep 2009 05:08

sumshyam wrote:
NRao wrote: How many T/R modules on MiG-35 AESA?
Sir...with all due respect i doubt motive of the question..!!!

but as far i know The radar uses 680 4 channel transceiver modules with a power output of 5 watts per channel in its export version.

rao sir everyone knows how many t/r modules in zhuk ae since feb 2007

but i just wanted to know that if there are really 1000 t/r modules in RBE2 AESA as claimed thats all

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 29 Sep 2009 05:21

Baldev,

I did not know and was lazy to google.

On the Rafale .................. well, you either trust the French or you do not. As much as I like the Rafale, i am surprised that they claim they have a working AESA. I have to assume they one that will do some tricks to satisfy the RFP. Well, if IAF is happy with that I am too. My ONLY concern is that the MRCA is late, I just hope it is comes ............... OK, in 2014.

Jean_M · Post by **Jean_M** » 29 Sep 2009 05:52

NRao wrote: will the manuals come in English or at least properly spelled French?

Why ? You had some problems with Mirage 2000's ones ?

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 29 Sep 2009 05:59

Luftwaffe crew piled under the Eurofighter Typhoon escaping the heat

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1586017/L/ HIGH RES

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 29 Sep 2009 06:03

Jean_M wrote:
NRao wrote: will the manuals come in English or at least properly spelled French?

Why ? You had some problems with Mirage 2000's ones ?

Not with the language, but with the spellings.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Sep 2009 08:19

saptarishi wrote:.........
rahul m wants lca mk2 in favour of mmrca and mca in favour of pak-fa
.........

you are wrong again but since my thoughts don't have an effect on the decision making I won't bother to correct it !

p.s. people who are discussing split orders, more than one ACM has stated that there will be no split orders. has their stance changed that you are discussing this ?

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 29 Sep 2009 09:37

:shock:M'lord Philip, such verbal escapades, nay such wanton liberties on a stage so noble, so pristine! - victorian libertine literature - come one, come all - only at BR's MRCA page!

Forsooth, noble readers such wanton revelry, where is thine shame, alas for modesty!

CM.

srai · Post by **srai** » 29 Sep 2009 10:36

Rahul M wrote:...

p.s. people who are discussing split orders, more than one ACM has stated that there will be no split orders. has their stance changed that you are discussing this ?

No split orders. IAF should go for one type for the MRCA contract as well as options mentioned (i.e. 126 + 60 options).

Rather than split orders, IAF should go for more of an aircraft type it already has in its service to bolster its depleting fleet. For example, it would make better sense for the IAF to purchase additional 2 or 3 squadron worth of second hand Mirage 2000s to fill in as a stop gap measure. It was stated in a MoD/IAF document that IAF has built an infrastructure to support 150 Mirage 2000s. And given that it takes a lot of time/delays to start local production and induct a new combat aircraft into the IAF, adding more second hand Mirage 2000s would be a better short-term option to compliment the 126 MRCA contract. There are quite a few ex-Mirage 2000s becoming available: 12 Qatari AF, 60 UAE AF (if they go ahead with Rafale deal), 12 Brazilian AF (new 60 a/c competition taking place), and 200+ French AF (available after 2012 in batches as when replaced by Rafale). If an ex-M2K plus upgrades costs around $50 million each, for 60 aircrafts (i.e. 3 squadrons worth) it would cost around $3 billion. These would serve from 2012 till 2025/30 and would be replaced by the 60 options in the MRCA contract.

Patrick Cusack · Post by **Patrick Cusack** » 29 Sep 2009 10:40

Based on the promise of shock therapy by China on 1st Oct 2009 National day - looks like India will not need the MRCA.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 29 Sep 2009 10:41

for all the bubbas who insist that the MiG-35 has smokey engines despite being told otherwise by guys who have actually flown it, here is a nifty video - see any smoke?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CP7W2VmESik

CM

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 29 Sep 2009 13:47

Vishal Jolapara wrote:Luftwaffe crew piled under the Eurofighter Typhoon escaping the heat
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1586017/L/ HIGH RES

And here's the same airplane retuning from a performance with the pilot bragging about returning from the display on time by pointing to his watch

http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6674838

rahul_h · Post by **rahul_h** » 29 Sep 2009 13:57

sumshyam wrote:
rahul_h wrote:
US Government is not even in favour of allowing Lockheed to help Tejas development.

Remember its the same Country which stopped assistance on LCA Development for several years and will continue for the coming years.

IN my opinion ----
MMRCA must be converted into 2 Separate strategic bids:

Rafale - 126 (7 squadrons)
MIG 35 - 90 (5 squadrons)

Well....Nice strategy...!!!

I am also in favor of any such deal....!!!

But as far Rafale concerns ...It (126 birds) will cost us around 190 m $ each...aftermath of Brazil deal .... which in turn will claim a whooping price tag of atleast 24b $.

the question is ...is country ready for such a deal...???

If Govt of India is ready to double the bounty... we can get a deal just in opposite figures....!

126-Mig -35s.
80 - Rafales.

Ans also...if some is gonna change basic nature of MMRCA... take my words of hitting at Tu-160.

Why IAF is bothered about the money if any potent fighter like rafale or EFT comes at 100+ million $ tagthen it must not be a problem to defend the country, 24 billion $ is a very small amount.........

India has a forex reserve of over 300 Billion $ what is of that use if can't use that money for national interest and safety is RBI waiting for PAF or PLAAF to destroy INdian airbases andmilitary infrastructure so that money can be used to build infra...

IAgain in my opinion

Rafales -- 126

&Mig 35 -- 90 (If any body in the thread agrees with 2 Strategic bids)
can do miracles......

They can clean whole paki Airbases and Airspace and wipe out all their fighter bandars

in just 48 hours in any large scale war with them
+ together with MKI's we can free tibet in few days from the chinese controls.......

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Sep 2009 14:06

arrrrhhhh !!!!!

{insert cringe smiley here}

dorai · Post by **dorai** » 29 Sep 2009 14:06

Is it known if HAL has a gag order in place or if they might actually try to influence a decision like Embraer might be doing ?

Brazil's Embraer Prefers Swedish Fighter -Report

SAO PAULO -(Dow Jones)- Brazilian aircraft manufacturer Embraer (ERJ) would prefer the government choose Saab's Gripen NG as the basis for the company's new fighter fleet because of the technology transfer opportunities it offers, a senior company executive told local business daily Valor Economico.

Adding spice to the decision-making process, Embraer's defense market vice president, Jose Ferreira Neto, said the company would like to work with the Swedish Gripen NG over its French and U.S. rivals because it has yet to go into production. This would give Embraer from-scratch knowledge on developing the plane.

Brazil is looking to order 36 fighter planes to replace its aging fleet and is choosing from Dassault Aviation SA's (AM.FR) Rafale, Boeing Co.'s (BA) F-18 and the Swedish option.

The French and U.S. offers are for flight-ready planes, which would limit local industry participation, Ferreira said.

President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva went as far as announcing that the political decision had been made to buy Rafale during a visit by French President Nicolas Sarkozy earlier in the month, but he pulled back from that position. The government has invited improved offers from the three candidates by Oct. 2.

According to Ferreiro, the Swedish jet will have important locally produced components, and the development of the plane would bring technological benefits to Embraer, which is one of the world's leading regional jet makers.

http://www.nasdaq.com/aspx/stock-market ... hterreport

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 29 Sep 2009 14:28

rahul_h wrote: IAgain in my opinion

Rafales -- 126

&Mig 35 -- 90 (If any body in the thread agrees with 2 Strategic bids)
can do miracles......

They can clean whole paki Airbases and Airspace and wipe out all their fighter bandars in just 48 hours in any large scale war with them + together with MKI's we can free tibet in few days from the chinese controls.......

Is Rahul_H a relative of Rahul_M?
I must say the level of analysis is really mind boggling.

abhi.enggr · Post by **abhi.enggr** » 29 Sep 2009 14:35

[quote="archan]
Hello? is this supposed to be a serious post?
Please let me know......
I don't know what to make of it...........
If this stays this way, I will keep misunderstanding........
And will end up taking action against......
So kindly clarify......
And what do you mean by "*****"?.....
Are the yanks stars?....[/quote]
hi moderator
sorry dear never wanted to break rules.
i think you have seen what i had written where ******* is printed.well my apologies for that.but seriously if you are concerned about my issues with the americans than i cannot understand.why cannot i can vouch for the verdict i feel is more potent than others and if it is not allowed i will take care of it in future.
and kindly if there is any other issue or you feel that i have in some other way broken the rules than please elaborate.
well what i have made out is that my post seems to be a chiidish ranting which seriously it is not.
well what is wrong with posting your views on a deal.
anyways i will keep your advise in future.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Sep 2009 14:39

AmitR wrote: Is Rahul_H a relative of Rahul_M?
I must say the level of analysis is really mind boggling.

yes, that's a brilliant bit of deduction! all the rahuls of the world are indeed related. although I'm not sure why. rahul is after all not a surname.
I'm surprised you figured that out on your own.

Rahul_H is perhaps more closely related to the Rahul G side of the global rahul family, don't you think ?

what does your method say ?

abhi.enggr · Post by **abhi.enggr** » 29 Sep 2009 14:42

hi
it seems that there are a few takers for the deal to be awarded to rafale or to be split in between rafale and mig-35.
i believe it will be the most sensible approach than any other.
well if cost is not an issue then we should be going for rafale.
well what i have understoodis that any future war will be short and quick where you will have to act fast and there planes having equal compatibility in air to air as well as ground capabilities.
and can anyone give super hornets ground attack capabilities a look where it is seriously compromised.
also rafale's capabilities in this regard are better.

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 29 Sep 2009 15:54

abhi.enggr wrote:hi
it seems that there are a few takers for the deal to be awarded to rafale or to be split in between rafale and mig-35.

No need to split MRCA to Split between 2 vendors,already Su-30 MKI's are reaching numbers upto 300,and upgration of mig 29 and mirage 2000(100+ when combined) are on the cards. so 126 MRCA will suffice and it would be better to go for 1 Vendor.

Better concentrate on LCA MkII, MCA if any and FGFA.

David Saenz · Post by **David Saenz** » 29 Sep 2009 16:15

p.s. people who are discussing split orders, more than one ACM has stated that there will be no split orders. has their stance changed that you are discussing this ?

Just my 2 cents..
Awarding the MMRCA contract to the respective vendor for the required nos, (just in case assuming its not the Mig-35) is it possible to rather replace the current fleet of Mig-29s gradually with the Mig-35 with the current config of Zhuk-AE, TVC, improved RD-33 engines?. IMHO would be a formidable replacement for the IAF than upgrading the present ones with Zhuk-ME PESA

.
Requesting gurus(Philip, CM, Shiv, Rahul & all) to enlighten on the cost difference to be encountered in upgradation as well as replacement.

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 29 Sep 2009 16:40

Rahul M wrote:
AmitR wrote: Is Rahul_H a relative of Rahul_M?
I must say the level of analysis is really mind boggling.
yes, that's a brilliant bit of deduction! all the rahuls of the world are indeed related. although I'm not sure why. rahul is after all not a surname.
I'm surprised you figured that out on your own.

Rahul_H is perhaps more closely related to the Rahul G side of the global rahul family, don't you think ?
what does your method say ?

Aha!

Finally got the equation correct.
So, Rahul(G) --> Rahul(H) --> Rahul(M).
Like Mig(21) --> Mig(29) --> Mig(35).
They are upgraded versions with better avionics, better engines. stealth, radars etc etc.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Sep 2009 17:39

err, I thought Rahul G was the ultimate of 'em all, future PM and all that.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 29 Sep 2009 19:40

I propose that the MRCA be split three ways, with the following aircraft inducted.

1. Mig-35
2. Rafale
3. FA-18 E/F/G

one for nearly as good tech with TOT, cost effectiveness and loyalty, two for le mamozelles for the babooze, three for the radar and the best weapons loadout.

This will result in:
1. The vastest majority of BRF jingos will be happy,
2. The babooze will be happy
3. The three major powers will be happy
4. IAF pilots will be happy.
5. There will be a healty mix of technology, beauty, and sanctions proofing to the widest limit.

Only the the IAF stores management guys will be hopping mad. I am sure India easily has the monies to go in for 80 - 100 of each.