Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

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ajay_ijn
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by ajay_ijn »

neel wrote: A glut of personal savings would result in a fall in interest rates as the supply of loans would have increased. But low interest rates represent a lowered cost of money. Lower cost means higher larger quantity demanded, which manifests as stimulated borrowing, either by people making big ticket purchases, businesses making fixed capital investments, or governments spending borrowed money to buy votes or (less likely) make infrastructure investments (i.e., 100 people saving what they would have otherwise spent on Rs. 5000 bottles of champaign in the bank means that the bank now has Rs. 5 lakh available to loan to either a family buying a new car, a business buying a new delivery van, or a babu providing a man-day of "work" to 5000 people in a moderately large village). Every time someone puts a rupee in the bank, the interest rates fall; every time that bank proceeds lend (i.e., every time that a borrower purchases the lending services from the bank for a loan of) that rupee, the interest rate rises. In a credit market without structural impediments to liquidity, this results in every rupee saved in the bank being lent out by the bank (> 5% of loans are never withdrawn from the banking system as cash, so the CRR constraint has no affect on the liquidity situation). Even if the time scale works out so that the real interest rate is negative for a time (i.e., the banks are so flush with cash that they are paying you to borrow from them), that just induces people to borrow money even faster, so in a monthly average, the money is all lent out (into a more efficient allocation, since businesses got some to fund capital expenditures).
I have a had this silly doubt regarding savings all the time.

Shouldn't all the money in the system be actually saved in Banks?

even if we spend, that money actually goes into company savings or to pay to employees or to pay for raw materials which inturn goes into bank accounts.

Then how can one distinguish between money saved, lent, spent or invested when its known the same money simply changes hands from consumer to producer to bank? :-?
Ameet
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by Ameet »

Out From India’s Alleys, Gold Loans Gain Respect

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/29/busin ... wanted=all

“This is the rural credit card,” said V. P. Nandakumar, chairman of the Manappuram Group, one of the country’s biggest gold loan companies. “This is the only way really that someone gets an instant loan within three minutes.”

But loans against gold are also a measure of how immature — and restricted — India’s credit markets are. :roll:

As a result, for borrowers like Vishwanathan C. R. Pai, a rickshaw repairman, gold loans are an essential financial tool.

He frequently hands over his family’s jewelry at Muthoot Finance to pay operating expenses for his business. He often borrows 10,000 to 25,000 rupees ($200 to $500) to buy spare parts, repaying the loans when customers pay him.

He pays 15 to 18 percent interest.

Mr. Pai said he couldn’t get a business loan from banks because they wanted documentation of his income. But his customers, who earn as little as $100 a month, don’t do checks and invoices.

“It is very easy here, there are no formalities,” Mr. Pai, 29, said about borrowing at Muthoot.
Suraj
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by Suraj »

NYT either does not understand the cachet of gold in India, or pretends that some fiat instrument would be easier to implement.

On other matters, the core sector performance does not appear to be a fluke. It isn't all a positive though; that BHEL has a $25 billion order backlog is almost scandalous - they are nowhere near keeping up with demand from the power sector:
It's raining orders for India, Inc
The trickle has turned into a deluge. India Inc’s order book has more than doubled to an all-time high of Rs 73,320 crore in the second quarter of the current financial year, compared to the first quarter. On a year-on-year basis, the increase is 21 per cent.

An analysis of order book announcements by 63 companies shows that capital goods, engineering and infrastructure have led the way, cornering 86 per cent (Rs 63,439 crore) of the total orders. The remaining Rs 9,881 crore went to gems & jewellery, pharmaceuticals and telecom. Larsen & Toubro (L&T) topped the list with new orders worth Rs 14,253 crore.

The order backlog is equally impressive and suggests strong revenue streams for the next few years. Electrical equipment giant Bharat Heavy Electricals Ltd has an order backlog of over Rs 117,000 crore ($25 billion), which could see the company through for the next four years. Engineering major L&T has a total order book of Rs 70,000 crore, which is almost 1.75 times its annual turnover.

It’s not the big boys alone who are comfortably placed. For example, BGR Energy, which has won contracts worth Rs 1,633 crore each for two power projects, has an overall order position of Rs 12,500 crore, providing a revenue stream for more than three years.

The bulk of orders has come from public sector undertakings and central and state governments. Foreign companies accounted for a quarter and the private sector for the rest.
State FMs group meets Mukherjee on GST imlpementation
Asim Dasgupta, the chairman of the empowered group of state finance ministers, today met Union Finance Minister Pranab Mukherjee and other officials to discuss the preparations on the implementations of the proposed Goods and Services Tax (GST) from April 1 next year. Dasgupta, the finance minister of West Bengal, expressed his confidence and said “we will not miss the target of implementing the GST. All efforts are on to hammer out the differences with some of the states.”

According to top sources in the finance ministry, the BJP-led National Democratic Alliance (NDA) is a divided house over its opposition to the GST. “The main voice of dissent is the finance minister of Madhya Pradesh Raghav Ji. But Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi and even Bihar Deputy Chief Minister Sushil Modi has told the Centre that they want the GST to come in place from the next financial year.”

The GST is expected to replace most of the taxes levied by the Centre like service tax and central excise. It will also offset taxes charged by states like the VAT, purchase tax and octroi.

While NDA-ruled states like Punjab has raised objections, those ruled by the Congress party like Haryana have also expressed apprehensions about the proposed tax. These two states have informed the Centre that they do not want to do away with the purchase tax on agricultural products as it is a major source of their revenues. Maharashtra, another Congress-ruled state, wants to retain the octroi.

Dasgupta held a two-and-a-half-hour-long discussion with finance ministry officials today before meeting Mukherjee separately for 45 minutes. “We held a detailed discussion today with the central government officials as the GST is a dual model involving both the state as well as the Centre. But we are quickly reaching convergence,” Dasgupta told Business Standard.
SwamyG
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by SwamyG »

In a year or so, all the analysts ithyadi are going to say we underestimated Indian "recovery" the growth is not ~6% but more than that 7+%.

All calculations are based on white money, I understand we have a "robust" parallel economy as well. How much ever they are parked in Swiss accounts, a lot of them are actually lubricating the wheels of the economy.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by arnab »

neel wrote: I do not expect the government to follow counter cyclical policies; in fact, I wish that they would not. In practice, counter cyclical policies only serve to shorten expansionary periods by inflating asset bubbles that produce shocks (a la the housing bubble that precipitated the shock that kicked off this contractionary period).
Sorry - which government counter cyclical fiscal policy led to the housing bubble?
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by Dileep »

I cashed out of the market on the rally last week and bought a piece of land 'enough to dry the undies'.

And just like EVERY darned time I cashed out, the market rose :((

Maybe I can grow Taro and Yam there, and crash their prices :twisted:
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by Neshant »

Stock market is a leading indicator of economic recovery/cycle.
Currently the stock market in the US has no relation to the actual economy which is headed down hill. I fail to see how there can be any economic recovery unless a productive, job intensiive industry emerges to drive it.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by neel »

arnab wrote:
neel wrote: I do not expect the government to follow counter cyclical policies; in fact, I wish that they would not. In practice, counter cyclical policies only serve to shorten expansionary periods by inflating asset bubbles that produce shocks (a la the housing bubble that precipitated the shock that kicked off this contractionary period).
Sorry - which government counter cyclical fiscal policy led to the housing bubble?
In this case the big culprit was counter cyclical monetary policy (viz. negative real interest rates) causing an artificial housing bubble.

Addendum -

Although the trillions of dollars of government dis-savings crowding out private investment certainly did not help.
Last edited by neel on 30 Sep 2009 13:19, edited 1 time in total.
neel
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by neel »

ajay_ijn wrote: I have a had this silly doubt regarding savings all the time.

Shouldn't all the money in the system be actually saved in Banks?

even if we spend, that money actually goes into company savings or to pay to employees or to pay for raw materials which inturn goes into bank accounts.

Then how can one distinguish between money saved, lent, spent or invested when its known the same money simply changes hands from consumer to producer to bank? :-?
The only practical distinction is between money spent for consumption and money spent for investment. When money is spent by a consumer, it goes to pay taxes, loans, rents for the land and means of production used to create the good or render the service, and wages/salaries for the workers who produced same. When a consumer saves money in a bank, it is loaned to an investor, and is then spent as all other money spent for investment: to purchase new capital goods or repair existing ones (i.e., depreciation recovery).
ajay_ijn
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by ajay_ijn »

neel wrote:
ajay_ijn wrote: I have a had this silly doubt regarding savings all the time.

Shouldn't all the money in the system be actually saved in Banks?

even if we spend, that money actually goes into company savings or to pay to employees or to pay for raw materials which inturn goes into bank accounts.

Then how can one distinguish between money saved, lent, spent or invested when its known the same money simply changes hands from consumer to producer to bank? :-?
The only practical distinction is between money spent for consumption and money spent for investment. When money is spent by a consumer, it goes to pay taxes, loans, rents for the land and means of production used to create the good or render the service, and wages/salaries for the workers who produced same. When a consumer saves money in a bank, it is loaned to an investor, and is then spent as all other money spent for investment: to purchase new capital goods or repair existing ones (i.e., depreciation recovery).
ok so let us assume there are no savings at all and people are spending everything they earn.and investors are putting all their profits/earnings into investments.

if consumers don't want spend everything, they can directly lend excess money to investors/producers through capital markets, corporate FDs etc

Consumption drives investments. Investment drives consumption. There are no banks to lend or to save. Govt can inject new money into the system by printing money and spending it.

Can this work?
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by neel »

ajay_ijn wrote: ok so let us assume there are no savings at all and people are spending everything they earn.and investors are putting all their profits/earnings into investments.

if consumers don't want spend everything, they can directly lend excess money to investors/producers through capital markets, corporate FDs etc

Consumption drives investments. Investment drives consumption. There are no banks to lend or to save. Govt can inject new money into the system by printing money and spending it.

Can this work?
It would work in the sense of the system not collapsing, but it would not work as well as a system with banks, since the money spent on consumption could not simultaneously be the principal of any loans. When money is in a bank it can be spent even while it has been lent out, since the "spending" manifests as the bank moving money internally. So long as < 5% of the money supply is ever not deposited in a bank, the banks never need have on hand the money you are spending. As such, 95% of the balance of every deposit account is lent by the bank, even though you are still spending that money for consumption.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by Dilbu »

Stock market is a leading indicator of economic recovery/cycle.
Only in free economy where outside/govt control is minimised to the bare necessary level. Right now it is just a slogan by unkil to pull the wool over people'e eyes by propping up the market from inside. They can always point to the stock market and say 'lookie, here is the recovery'. :rotfl:
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by Rahul Mehta »

ajay_ijn wrote:Then how can one distinguish between money saved, lent, spent or invested when its known the same money simply changes hands from consumer to producer to bank? :-?
When money is "spent", someone will get it with no commitment to repay and hence has freedom to further spend or invest the way he likes.

When money is saved in banks, someone will again get it as loan, but has commitment to repay. And so his freedom to further spend/invest decreases. And if repayment doesnt happen, GoI will have to manufacture money to save bank and this will lead to inflation.

When money is saved in bonds, someone will again get it as loan, but has commitment to repay. And so his freedom to further spend/invest decreases.

When money is saved in sahres, someone will again get it as equity. He has morfal, but no legal, commitment to repay. And so his freedom to further spend/invest is in-between.

So money will move from A to B anyway. But freedom and chances of inflation differ in spending vs saving in bank vs saving in bonds vs investing in shares
ajay_ijn
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by ajay_ijn »

neel wrote: It would work in the sense of the system not collapsing, but it would not work as well as a system with banks, since the money spent on consumption could not simultaneously be the principal of any loans. When money is in a bank it can be spent even while it has been lent out, since the "spending" manifests as the bank moving money internally. So long as < 5% of the money supply is ever not deposited in a bank, the banks never need have on hand the money you are spending. As such, 95% of the balance of every deposit account is lent by the bank, even though you are still spending that money for consumption.
sir How is exactly possible, how banks can lend the same money we are consuming?

I deposited 100 Rs in a bank. considering reserve requirements of 10%, Bank can lend 90. Now i came to bank to withdraw Rs 50 for spending. Now Bank can lend only 45 Rs.

Do you mean the Rs 50 i spent will go another bank which will continue to lend?


I also had another doubt regarding GDP.
Now if we say Indias GDP is 1 Trillion USD. It means the value of all goods and services produced in India.

So GDP can be considered same as Company production. The value of goods & services produced by a company.

Growth in the GDP can be considered same as growth in production of a company.

But a company also balance sheet, debt, equity and assets.

Now we know Indias debt (public+ external debt), but what are Indias assets? how much they are worth? would there be anything like balance sheet of India?
India would have public debt, foreign debt. India also would have external/foreign assets but what about public or local assets?
When money is "spent", someone will get it with no commitment to repay and hence has freedom to further spend or invest the way he likes.

When money is saved in banks, someone will again get it as loan, but has commitment to repay. And so his freedom to further spend/invest decreases. And if repayment doesnt happen, GoI will have to manufacture money to save bank and this will lead to inflation.

When money is saved in bonds, someone will again get it as loan, but has commitment to repay. And so his freedom to further spend/invest decreases.

When money is saved in sahres, someone will again get it as equity. He has morfal, but no legal, commitment to repay. And so his freedom to further spend/invest is in-between.

So money will move from A to B anyway. But freedom and chances of inflation differ in spending vs saving in bank vs saving in bonds vs investing in shares
yes i understood. I was a bit confused over the fact that everything would actually end up with the banks.

just for example
a Customer saved Rs 1000 in a Bank A. and if Bank A lends the same money to a company. (considering 0% reserve requirement)
The company would invest 1000 to pay for raw materials, manpower and other contractors.
assume the all that 1000 goes to another Bank B which would be further lend, further saved etc the cycle continues.

the fact that there is only 1000 Rs in the system but figures would show savings as Rs 2000 (Bank A+ Bank B ) and Rs 1000 as loan. This is where it gets confusing. The same 1000 Rs got multiplied to
3000 Rs simply by changing hands from customer to bank A to company to employees/contractors to Bank B.

So savings help banks create more & more money while consumption helps investors/producers to repay the same borrowed money to banks and there by destroy it. am i right?
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by arnab »

quote="neel]
In this case the big culprit was counter cyclical monetary policy (viz. negative real interest rates) causing an artificial housing bubble.

Addendum -

Although the trillions of dollars of government dis-savings crowding out private investment certainly did not help.[/quote
I'm afraid this is terminological inexactitude. You seem to be putting the blame on monetary policy rather than lax lending standards - which led to the housing bubble (this has been universally agreed). Incidentally, why isn't this 'bubble' continuing now that interest rates in the US are historically at their lowest and the government is aggresively pursuing an expansionary fiscal policy?
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by neel »

arnab wrote:[quote="neel]
In this case the big culprit was counter cyclical monetary policy (viz. negative real interest rates) causing an artificial housing bubble.

Addendum -

Although the trillions of dollars of government dis-savings crowding out private investment certainly did not help.
I'm afraid this is terminological inexactitude. You seem to be putting the blame on monetary policy rather than lax lending standards - which led to the housing bubble (this has been universally agreed). Incidentally, why isn't this 'bubble' continuing now that interest rates in the US are historically at their lowest and the government is aggresively pursuing an expansionary fiscal policy?[/quote][/quote]

If you blame lax lending standards, then you must also agree that there does not exist a set of lending standards under which all of the money that the government printed to feed the bubble would have been lent. Can you imagine the claims of discrimination that would result from banks having money to lend but then not lending it, for lack of a potential borrower who meets the standards? (since the least qualified borrowers are disproportionately from backwards groups, and rejecting their loan applications on the basis of empirical objective standards always draws cries of discrimination) They had to adopt sufficiently laxer lending standards so as to lend out all of the money they had in order to maintain their brand and, in less free societies, their license to operate.

The bubble has already burst, it cannot inflate further. But a new bubble (probably, but not certainly, not in housing this time) will certainly be inflated by all that extra money chasing the same basket of real assets. I have always maintained that it takes a few years for the full implications of government policies to percolate throughout the economy. Just wait a few years and you'll see an asset bubble whose precipitation has been vastly accelerated by the existence of all of this extra money.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by neel »

ajay_ijn wrote:
neel wrote: It would work in the sense of the system not collapsing, but it would not work as well as a system with banks, since the money spent on consumption could not simultaneously be the principal of any loans. When money is in a bank it can be spent even while it has been lent out, since the "spending" manifests as the bank moving money internally. So long as < 5% of the money supply is ever not deposited in a bank, the banks never need have on hand the money you are spending. As such, 95% of the balance of every deposit account is lent by the bank, even though you are still spending that money for consumption.
sir How is exactly possible, how banks can lend the same money we are consuming?

I deposited 100 Rs in a bank. considering reserve requirements of 10%, Bank can lend 90. Now i came to bank to withdraw Rs 50 for spending. Now Bank can lend only 45 Rs.

Do you mean the Rs 50 i spent will go another bank which will continue to lend?
If you take Rs. 10k of black money and deposit it in a bank (with no transaction exceeding the Rs. 10k limit on per transaction reporting requirements for the bank), then the bank will lend out all but Rs. 500 of it. Then, when you make your withdrawal of Rs 50 to buy lunch, there is still the cash reserves available to fund such. However, when you pay your electricity bill of Rs 1k by cheque, the bank transfers the money from one deposit account to another; it does not need cash to do so, so it was acceptable for the bank to have lent out all but Rs. 500 of your initial cash deposit. Transfers within the banking systems happen by reciprocity, so that at any time there may only be, in the aggregate, Rs. 95 in loans by all banks for every Rs. 100 note in circulation.
I also had another doubt regarding GDP.
Now if we say Indias GDP is 1 Trillion USD. It means the value of all goods and services produced in India.

So GDP can be considered same as Company production. The value of goods & services produced by a company.

Growth in the GDP can be considered same as growth in production of a company.

But a company also balance sheet, debt, equity and assets.

Now we know Indias debt (public+ external debt), but what are Indias assets? how much they are worth? would there be anything like balance sheet of India?
India would have public debt, foreign debt. India also would have external/foreign assets but what about public or local assets?
There is a balance sheet. If you go to the CSO website, there are national account statistics that include a listing of assets, liabilities, and income, both in the aggregate and divided along various parameters. The listings are available both for GOI (e.g. public debt/national debt including external portion thereof) and for the country at large (e.g. the aggregate of all non-governmental debts owed by Indian nationals).
[/quote]
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by Hari Seldon »

Sri Greenspan spun the last great bubble (Housing) in the aftermath of the dotcom bubble burst (anyone recall the hopelessly doomed and outlandishly crazy valuations and business models floating around then?)

How to spin the bubble? Well, keep interest rates at historic lows. The demand surge for products and services from the rest of the world happened at least partly because US consumers and businesses could borrow real cheap (relative to a historical standard).

Also, the Fed's narrow focus on fighting inflation, defined as price inflation in consumer goods and services and not asset inflation (read, housing) led to further sleepovers by concerned regulatory authorities. No one blew the whistle because no one saw the train coming. Or so the story goes.

Sri Greenspan also wilfully subverted regulatory structure in other ways by nudging the demise of the Glass-Steagell act that had prevented the brokerage and the investment advisory divisions of I-banks from colluding. So now, I-banks could recommend strong buys on one stock one hour and short it the next. Again in 2004 he and his successor Sri Bernake approved of removing SEC caps on reserve reqirements and leverage ratios for banks- The banks leveraged away straight into insolvency when the asset bubble finally burst. The lax (or lack of) regulation of the CDO market and of derivatives proliferating like weeds is another story again.

Of course, all this is ancient history now. The booming stock market (ostensibly booming higher now because the US economy shrank by a mere 0.7% last quarter and not by the expected 1.2%) is the new bubble that is at odds with soaring unemployment, looming defaults on all manner of loans by consumers and businesses and depressed business activity across the board.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by arnab »

neel wrote:[
If you blame lax lending standards, then you must also agree that there does not exist a set of lending standards under which all of the money that the government printed to feed the bubble would have been lent. Can you imagine the claims of discrimination that would result from banks having money to lend but then not lending it, for lack of a potential borrower who meets the standards? (since the least qualified borrowers are disproportionately from backwards groups, and rejecting their loan applications on the basis of empirical objective standards always draws cries of discrimination) They had to adopt sufficiently laxer lending standards so as to lend out all of the money they had in order to maintain their brand and, in less free societies, their license to operate.
Ok - let us examine this argument. So you are saying that it was basically the feds fault in keeping so much liquidity in the market which led to this 'irrational exuberence' on the part of the Banks and let them to lower their lending standards? [As an analogy if the supply of bikini clad women on bondi beach increases suddenly does an SDRE like me get automatic access to them? :)] I find this line of reasoning strange - this seems to put no onus on the banks to do a due diligence before lending. How does this sit with the 'market knows best' sentiment? (I know RBI governor Y V Reddy was of the view that Banks will cheat if they can). Second, it is also true that the Glass Stegal Acts etc were diluted because of extensive lobbying by the banks them selves who wanted to provide 'comprehensive' services - insurance, investment and core banking. They steamrolled the obvious conflicts of interets. Now shree Greenspan was an avowed 'free market' believer and boy was he proved wrong.
Next, I do not follow the US fed operations, but a quick google lets me see that the Fed had increased interest rates 6 times before the dotcom burst and almost 20 times (to 6.5 per cent) before the sub-prime crisis hit. So clearly the markets were not taking the hint. Now to go back to your argument - that the problem arose because the fed followed a countercyclical policy? What do you think the problem would have been if the interest rates were held low throughout the 2003-2007 period?
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by Suraj »

If auto sales are any indicator, consumer demand has rebounded strongly going into the holiday season. Further, strong growth is in the 4-wheeler segment, with the 2-wheeler makers indicating soft/saturating growth:
Tata Motors sales up 5.77%
Hyundai reports 16.41% sales growth, highest ever monthly sales
Maruti sales up 17.3% in Sept
Hero Honda two wheeler sales up 4.16%

Interesting ranking of central bankers. Take with a pinch of salt:
Central Bankers Ranking: Subbarao scores B, Bernanke gets C
original report
Reserve Bank of India (RBI) Governor D Subbarao scored a ‘B’ grade in the annual Central Banker Report Card carried by the Global Finance magazine in its October issue.

Subbarao fared better than the US Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke and the People’s Bank of China (PBOC) Governor Zhou Xiaochuan, both of whom scored a ‘C’ grade.

The survey of 31 leading central bankers in the world was topped by Jean-Claude Trichet of European Central Bank and Glenn Stevens of Australia among others.

Others who scored the ‘A’ grade were central bankers of Czech Republic, Malaysia, South Korea, Taiwan and Israel. Bernanke was upgraded to ‘C’ from ‘C-’ last year.
Advance data suggests that Q2 manufacturing and GDP growth will exceed Q1 growth, as I'd postulated previously, despite the monsoon concerns. Consumer demand in Q3 will be crucial in determining how well overall GDP growth looks like that quarter.
India’s Export Decline Eases; Manufacturing Rises a Sixth Month
India’s exports declined the least this year and manufacturing output increased for a sixth month, adding to signs that Asia’s third-biggest economy is on course to recover from the global recession.

Merchandise shipments dropped 19.4 percent in August from a year earlier to $14.3 billion after sliding 28.4 percent in July, the Commerce Ministry said in a statement in New Delhi today. The Purchasing Managers’ Index compiled by HSBC Holdings Plc and Markit Economics showed a monthly reading of above 50 in September, which indicates a gain in factory production.

“For India, the worst is over for both exports and imports,” said Sujan Hajra, chief economist at Anand Rathi Financial Services Ltd. in Mumbai. “In fact, India’s imports are strengthening faster than exports, indicating stronger domestic demand.”

Trade Minister Anand Sharma has urged Indian exporters to explore new markets in Africa and Latin America to offset shrinking demand in the U.S. and Europe, which account for 40 percent of the nation’s exports.
Rupee Advances as Foreign Investment in Shares Rises to Record
The currency climbed to its strongest level in eight weeks after overseas funds bought more Indian equities than they sold for a 15th straight day on Sept. 29, the longest stretch in almost two months. Foreign investment in the stock market reached an all-time high of $67.3 billion on Sept. 29, data from the Securities and Exchange Board of India showed.

“The latest figures for foreign portfolio inflows remain impressive and the rupee is gaining from the expectation that the trend will continue,” said Roy Paul, assistant manager of treasury at Federal Bank Ltd. in Mumbai.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by SwamyG »

^^^^
The commercial vehicle industry already was doing great (you had posted info on that too). It means the ancillary job creation is going to be robust too.

I wouldn't be surprised if our media gets into a frenzy on the Indian growth - similar to India shining meme.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by Suraj »

Yes, but the CV data was for August, and indicated not just positive overall growth, but heavy CV output growing again; it had indicated sales declines for a few months. Let us see how September CV sales data looks like - if it shows robust growth, particularly for medium/heavy CVs, then that is a very good datapoint in favour of the claim of growth stabilizing again, and the potential for overall GDP growth closer to 7% than 6% this year.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by suryag »

Suraj wrote:Yes, but the CV data was for August, and indicated not just positive overall growth, but heavy CV output growing again; it had indicated sales declines for a few months. Let us see how September CV sales data looks like - if it shows robust growth, particularly for medium/heavy CVs, then that is a very good datapoint in favour of the claim of growth stabilizing again, and the potential for overall GDP growth closer to 7% than 6% this year.
In addition to this I also see that my relatives' long range low bed trailers are running to full capacities. four-five months ago there were no orders and the trailers were all sitting idle. Tonnage increase in low bed trailers are a good indication as these are most often used to move concrete columns and other infrastructure related materials.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by csharma »

Suraj, What do you make of the IMF forecast in which they have pared India's growth for 2010.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by munna »

csharma wrote:Suraj, What do you make of the IMF forecast in which they have pared India's growth for 2010.

I am not Suraj but from my side its a shot in the dark on the basis of initial reports of bad monsoon. ADB upgraded our forecast in its latest update to Annual Outlook 2009 hence it is difficult to take a call based on IMF estimates only.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by Suraj »

The IMF doesn't have a particularly good history when it comes to prior estimates about Indian GDP growth. Their numbers have usually tended to be at the lower end.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by Suraj »

suryag wrote:In addition to this I also see that my relatives' long range low bed trailers are running to full capacities. four-five months ago there were no orders and the trailers were all sitting idle. Tonnage increase in low bed trailers are a good indication as these are most often used to move concrete columns and other infrastructure related materials.
suryag: It would be very helpful if you could provide monthly 'ear-to-the-ground' updates from your family trucking business regarding the ebb and flow of business, say for the next couple of quarters. It would serve as a very useful piece of information, in addition to the formal press reports. Thanks.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by Suraj »

Interview with Chanda Kochhar of ICICI Bank. Interesting insights on projects under implementation:
Expect $100 billion infrastructre addition in next 36 months
You see, it’s no rocket science if India has to grow at 9-10 per cent, there has to be a much larger investment in infrastructure. And it’s not just the push; it’s also the demand pull that is going to create the demand. For example, when an average Indian moved from a per capita income of $500 to $1,000, there was an increase in aspiration in terms of how often he buys a car or a two-wheeler, or how often he changes his mobile phones. It’s the next stage now: as the per capita income moves from $1,000 to $1,500, the average Indian will start demanding better roads, more power, etc, and, more importantly, he will be willing to pay for this. So, there is a huge growth driver for infrastructure.

On a very conservative estimate, I am sure that at least $100 billion of investments will be done from now till 2012 — that is the next two and a half years. These projects are not at a far-thinking stage, these are projects where the planning, conceptualisation etc have already taken place and will definitely see the light of day. In some sectors, they are already very bankable. Our estimate is that power projects for at least 25,000 Mw will get implemented by 2012, and they are bankable. In roads, if we do some of the changes in terms of contracts, processes, procedures and so on, we can easily make them bankable.

You will see a very big pick-up in road projects from November; you will see a very large number of projects actually go out for bidding. The last three months have been spent on discussing what all needs to be rectified to make the projects more bankable and to showcase the opportunity to a much larger set of investors.

Q: Your private equity arm, ICICI Ventures is setting up an infrastructure fund.
A: Yes, definitely within this financial year.
FII inflows cross Rs.60,000cr ($12 billion) current fiscal to date
With investments by foreign investors expected to rise in the coming months, the total overseas fund flow this year could well surpass the highest ever figure recorded in 2007, when India attracted a whopping Rs 70,000 crore.

Foreign institutional investors (FIIs) were gross buyer of shares worth Rs 4,58,371 crore ($95 billion), whereas they sold equities valued at Rs 3,98,245 crore ($83 billion), resulting in a net investment of Rs 60,125 crore, as per data available with market regulator Securities and Exchange Board of India (Sebi).

In September alone, foreign investors infused a hefty Rs 18,344 crore ($3.8 billion) in the local share markets.
Investor wealth soars by Rs 4.33 lakh cr ($90 billion) in Sept
The investor wealth, measured in terms of combined market capitalisation of all listed companies on the Bombay Stock Exchange, rose by Rs 4,33,651.31 crore in September to Rs 57,08,337.29 crore.

The cumulative market valuation was Rs 52,74,685.98 crore at the beginning of the month.

The market valuation of companies increased on positive momentum in the market with the benchmark index Sensex gaining over 1,500 points or 10.18 per cent to settle at 17,126.84 points on September 30.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by vera_k »

UP economy looks to be down in the dumps.

GDP growth only 2 pc but you spend 2,600cr on memorials
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by Katare »

Good stocks have doubled+ since march all over the world. Good diversified portfolios that stayed invested and kept investing, have more than recovered all the value they lost from top of the pre crach market. Market is counting on some kind of sustainable mild recovery.

From here, either economy will double dip (a W recovery) in that case markets will crash again. Or the economic recovery would take a U or V shape in that case markets will consolidate. US GDP numbers for latest quarter ended on sept would be the pivot point for markets. That number should be out in next few weeks.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by csharma »

munna wrote:
csharma wrote:Suraj, What do you make of the IMF forecast in which they have pared India's growth for 2010.

I am not Suraj but from my side its a shot in the dark on the basis of initial reports of bad monsoon. ADB upgraded our forecast in its latest update to Annual Outlook 2009 hence it is difficult to take a call based on IMF estimates only.
That's why I was a little surprised by the IMF forecast. World Bank shows Indian growth doing better than China in 2010. ADB raised India's forecast and IMF comes up with their forecast which is at odds with all the other forecasts.

However, the latest forecast by Ficci is in line with the IMF. Sharp drop in far output because of the drought is the reason for the shortfall.

Farm output shortfall to hit GDP, says Ficci


http://www.ptinews.com/news/313100_Farm ... says-Ficci
New Delhi, Oct 4 (PTI) India's economy is expected to grow between 5.2-5.8 per cent in 2009-10, much lower than last year as the agriculture output is estimated to decline significantly because of drought in 276 districts of the country, an industry paper has said.

The GDP projections for the current fiscal made by the Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry (Ficci) are far dismal than the estimates of 6 per cent by the Reserve Bank of India and 6.3 per cent by the Planning Commission.

Its projections are close to the assessment made by the International Monetary Fund about the Indian economy.

According to the IMF, India's GDP is expected to grow by 5.4 per cent in 2009.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by munna »

csharma wrote:However, the latest forecast by Ficci is in line with the IMF. Sharp drop in far output because of the drought is the reason for the shortfall.

Farm output shortfall to hit GDP, says Ficci


http://www.ptinews.com/news/313100_Farm ... says-Ficci
New Delhi, Oct 4 (PTI) India's economy is expected to grow between 5.2-5.8 per cent in 2009-10, much lower than last year as the agriculture output is estimated to decline significantly(rubbish) because of drought in 276 districts of the country, an industry paper has said.

The GDP projections for the current fiscal made by the Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry (Ficci) are far dismal than the estimates of 6 per cent by the Reserve Bank of India and 6.3 per cent by the Planning Commission
Csharmaji such papers often rely on slightly back dated data and this one might also be based on data from June-July-August timeframe thus it is discounting the late revival in Monsoons and also the fact that 20% shortfall in rainfall can be very easily dealt with by the farmers of Western UP, Haryana and Punjab ie the bread bowl of India. Please check this report by Economic Times. Click
We are closely monitoring the scenario. There seems to be no need for a blanket waiver scheme or interest rate moratorium. In most of the states whether it be Haryana, Uttar Pradesh and Punjab, standing crops have survived as farmers were able to use ground water with the state government providing free electricity,” said a senior finance ministry official who has been monitoring the situation.
The whole rain fed agriculture scenario was very valid till mid 90s but with a 20% rain drop we can easily withstand one season without having a crisis. What makes it all the more interesting is the fact that this drop in rainfall is not uniformly distributed across the nation hence it makes no sense to comment on agricultural output without taking into account the Kurtosis of production in India and the effects of Monsoon's delay in areas with heavy agricultural production.
The credit offtake for farming sector which had nose dived in June, on account of delayed onset of monsoons, has witnessed a robust uptake in the month of September. Officials at various public sector banks including Indian Overseas Bank, Union bank of India and Indian Bank confirmed this. The banks are expected to direct 18% of their entire lending to agriculture sector under priority sector lending norms
Again confirms my hypothesis that it was not a failed but a delayed Monsoon and this can be easily tided over.
Monsoon rains, the life line of agricultural production, in Asia’s third largest economy has been close to 20% below normal.
This drop will not destroy our agricultural output it may stagnate but will not be so huge relative to the rest of the economy to cause a drop in the growth all by itself. FICCI's chaps think that reading WEO makes them some kind of Econ gurus well then all I can say is :P . Now back to my self imposed exile from Econ.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by csharma »

munna, I hope you are right. GDP growth of 7% in 2009-2010 would be awesome. That's what Kamath of ICICI bank was saying.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by Ameet »

$100 Billion FDI milestone for India

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story ... India.html

India has crossed the $100 billion milestone in foreign direct investment through equity since 2000 up to July this year. The cumulative FDI inflows since 2000 and up to July 2009 amounted to $100.33 billion. The inflows in the first four months of the current financial year was $10.49 billion.

As much as 44 per cent of the money came through the Mauritius route, apparently because the investors wanted to take advantage of India's double taxation avoidance treaty with the island nation.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by SwamyG »

Economic gurus, please break this down in simple terms:
"The rupee remains a structurally undervalued currency, and the ongoing pickup in capital inflows will increase the pressure for appreciation," said Rajeev Malik, economist at Macquarie Securities
Source: Indian Rupee at Over 1-Year High on Capital Inflows

What does " structurally undervalued currency" mean :?:
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by Suraj »

RBI seeks not to let the Rupee appreciate too much, within limitations, through the market stabilisation scheme it introduced in 2004, in response to Rupee appreciation when FII inflows rose drastically that year. However, they don't appear to bother to do anything if the Rupee falls against the dollar. While they don't go so far as to define a range bound exchange rate, they essentially leave the Rupee undervalued.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by SwamyG »

^^^
Does it mean if RBI does not intervene, rupee would be stronger w.r.t dollar than what it is now? Rephrasing, is RBI artificially keeping the rupee under true value?
Last edited by SwamyG on 07 Oct 2009 01:27, edited 1 time in total.
Suraj
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (June 8 2008)

Post by Suraj »

That's right. The RBI actively intervenes to purchase dollars off the market to keep the Rupee from appreciating too fast, as a consequence of rapid external capital inflows. One of the consequences of this is rapidly growing forex reserves. Please read about the market stabilisation scheme from the link above, and using Google. As an additional benefit, here's a nice primer.
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