Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 09 Oct 2009 04:04

Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life interestingly releases a study putting the number of Muslims on the planet as 1.57. Will 'Europa' and 'Amerika' withdraw into a cocoon leaving the rest to fend of for themselves? China and India will become the hot targets.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 09 Oct 2009 16:56

The Christians are trying to overcome their sectarian differences at least in the heartlands of Christianity. Thsi trend is already apparent in attempts to hammer out a common fron in Europe between Anglicans and Catholics. The recent much quoted declaration of the Pope's intent to harvest the souls of Asia, actually indicate that Europe and the West is mortally scared. They do not feel confident of being able to tackle the Islamists on their own and current forces. They are looking to expand their support bases and thsi is why India appears to be a soft option. India's majority Hindus have been well repressed and deconstructed with rashtryia help - so that they can be made to feel guilty if they do not immediately convert into Christianity and acknowledge its superiority and join in the shame of being a "Hindu".

But the main thrust is because Christianity, rightly or wrongly, feels cornered in terms of numbers, regional dominance and superiority over Islam. Both these strands of the Abrahamic come from the same Judaic roots that are primarily obsessed with the question of owning fertile lands and reproductive resources - both non-human and human. So their panic always translates into transforming into imperialist expansion.

In doing this the Christians actually are proving themselves shortsighted as usual. Leaving the Indian Hindus as they are, would have been a better solution to prevent the expansion of Islamic influence. These are Hindus who had managed to fight off Islamic influence militarily to a great extent so that still some Hinduism survived before the British took up the deconstruction project again. On the other hand, once a simpler, rule based religion like Christianity is imposed - people get used to a much lower complexity level and cognitive load, where the burden of decision making is shifted to the theological leader. Once such a society is forced over generations to get completely unused to complexity and personal responsibility, any change of faith will happen to a similarly easy-on-the-brain theology.

This is what is seen with steadily rising conversions from Christianity into Islam in Europe and even in the USA. But they do nor realize this simple sociological process and are now trying to clear the field in Asia. If they do manage to convert the majority of Asians or Indians into Christianity, that will be the undoing of their own project for that will prepare the country for Islamization. But as usual the cost will be borne by India "onlee".

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 09 Oct 2009 20:56

Having seen Christianity at close quarters, non Christians fantasise (I could find no better a word owing to my lack of expertise over the language) that Christians of all hues are one monolithic bloc as they visualise the Moslems are so too!

Christians are a diverse lot. Catholicism is the largest denomination, comprising just over half of Christians worldwide. Protestant denominations comprise about 40% of Christians worldwide, and together the Catholics, Protestants, Anglicans, Baptists, Presbyterians, Lutherans and other related denominations compose Western Christianity. Eastern Orthodoxy, largely Greek and Russian, and the much smaller Oriental Orthodoxy, along with the Mar Toma churches and the Assyrian Church of the East are considered Eastern Christianity. Western Christian denominations prevail in Europe and its former colonies. Eastern Christian denominations are represented mostly in Eastern Europe (including all of Russia), and the Near East. Then there are the Syrian Orthodox, too and they are have split!

The basic approach to the Pearly Gates of the Christian denomination is so diverse, that there is no common ground to meet, except when one has to project a joint front in non Christian countries on policy and religious matters as is the case with the CNI and CSI.

There is no common theological ground for any of the denominations since they all have diverse opinions!

India is a soft target to ‘harvest the souls’ is not because Hindus have been deconstructed or repressed, but because of the work done by the Christians in the social field including education and medicine, both which are sorely needed. One cannot deny that the soft sell of love and all that does appeal to those sections of society which have been on the wrong end of Hindu ostracism. To blame Christians to make hay while the sun shines would be a case of anger over sour grapes. Isn’t it time that the Hindu revivalists also pay attention to social needs of the people and with less aggressive intent and more in the soft sell philosophy of God Loves All and Forgives all and such stuff? The sad part is that people sit on their haunches and expect miracles to keep the flock together and cry over the housetop if someone bests them!

Islam has overtaken Christianity because Christians have been smitten with materialism and have moved away from the spiritual path. Islam, on the other hand, is a no nonsense religion. Those who deviate have harsh punishment at hand. Illiteracy and obscurantism allows social ostracising, apart from harsher punishments in Islam. This is a powerful weapon. Buta Singh is an example. Neither in Hinduism or Christianity is it applied!

One must educate oneself in Comparative Theology as is essential to become a padre in Christianity to be able to hold on to their flock.

There is no idea of blaming others for the faults and omission of the Hindus.

Seek and ye shall find!

If one wants to win in this 'race', corrupt the young. Introduce them to materialism, sex and pub and night club culture and that will ensure that that group 'dies' young - metaphorically speaking.

Watch China!

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 09 Oct 2009 21:09

RayC wrote: There is no idea of blaming others for the faults and omission of the Hindus.

Brihaspati ji said:

India's majority Hindus have been well repressed and deconstructed with rashtryia help - so that they can be made to feel guilty if they do not immediately convert into Christianity and acknowledge its superiority and join in the shame of being a "Hindu".

As it is said "DharmO Rakshati Rakshitah!!!"

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 09 Oct 2009 21:11

SwamyG wrote:
RayC wrote: There is no idea of blaming others for the faults and omission of the Hindus.
Brihaspati ji said:
India's majority Hindus have been well repressed and deconstructed with rashtryia help - so that they can be made to feel guilty if they do not immediately convert into Christianity and acknowledge its superiority and join in the shame of being a "Hindu".

As it is said "DharmO Rakshati Rakshitah!!!"

Colonized education has already done half the job.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 09 Oct 2009 21:13

Acharya wrote: Brihaspati ji said:
India's majority Hindus have been well repressed and deconstructed with rashtryia help - so that they can be made to feel guilty if they do not immediately convert into Christianity and acknowledge its superiority and join in the shame of being a "Hindu".

As it is said "DharmO Rakshati Rakshitah!!!"

Colonized education has already done half the job.

True. The upper crust.

What about the Christian effort these days at the village level. They have become the upper crust?

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 09 Oct 2009 21:18

The 'colonized' education does not just impact the upper crust. It impacts the 'middle crust' too, and when that is the societal norm; people try to conform to it onlee.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 09 Oct 2009 21:18

RayC wrote:
True. The upper crust.

What about the Christian effort these days at the village level. They have become the upper crust?

Dollar money and media control.
I am in touch with some evangelical groups studying their methods. There is worry within them about losing.
Things are not as it seems always.
There is introspection in their own kind. US alone has 25000 denominations of christian sects.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 09 Oct 2009 21:21

Brihaspati ji: Earlier you had said that India would lose territory and huge losses, before some people seize the moment and turn it back. Do you still nurse that idea? Can it still happen? And how will it ever happen?

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 09 Oct 2009 22:20

US alone has 25000 denominations of christian sects.

That is interesting.

Can you enumerate?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 09 Oct 2009 22:22

BTW there are 3-4 million poor in US and they need lot of help

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ch ... ominations

List of Christian denominations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
As there are reported to be over 38000 Christian denominations, many of which ..... National Baptist Evangelical Life and Soul Saving Assembly of the U.S.A.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 09 Oct 2009 22:45

Number of poor in US is much higher. Officially 12% of the population is under the poverty line, which is defined for a family at $22,000, barely enough to pay rent & buy food. This comes out to more than 30 million amrikhanis. Some 10% (~ 30 million) use food stamps.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 10 Oct 2009 00:24

Nowadays it is the era of "nuanced response". One of the problems I think we share with professional historians is that we look at the collection of micro-identities in a group, and foucsing only on those micro-identities, we begin to claim or think that they all do not share any macroidentity.

The Thaparites claim that nothing called "Hinduism" ever existed because they had "sects". Indians were never one nation because there were multiple languages and ethnicities and kingdoms or principalities. We are now extending that logic to say that Christians or Muslims do not form a homogeneous category. Yes and No. It depends on the context.

The question is are there questions and issues on which the so-called sects among Christians see in commonality? We do not pay attention to the questions over which apparently divergent sects "agree". Those common points of agreements are crucial in understanding the foundational identity. These must be questions and issues of common and deep obsession for all those sects - as they seem to make them unify over such apparently powerful "sectarian divisions".

The issues on which all sects of Christians agree are (a) Christ is the "saviour" and accepting that he is the "saviour" is fundamental to escape God's "punishment" (b) all human beings should accept "Jesus" and reject all other beliefs (c) combining (a)+(b) - all those who are not yet Christians should be converted to save their "souls" (not necessarily their life or bodies) (d) Islam as the primary active competitor in this crusade of conversion and Hindus in general as passive pagans submerged in darkness.

The demand that Hindus compete with Christian missionaries to harvest souls and do "social work" and do charity has several problems.

First, the economic resources and funds at the disposal of Christian missionaries are much greater compared to Hindus. Many Church organizations in the west raise money either through compulsory legal tithes (as in Germany ensured and collected by the state on behalf of the Church and passed on to the Church), or by regular contributions from their flock. In India, the greatest collection of revenue for Hindus are through the temples, almost all of which are controlled by the state. The ways and means by which this fund is used and for what purpose is not always that clear. Moreover it is by no mean clear whether these funds could be used to actively tempt non-Hindus into Hinduism - something that the Christian missionaries are however free to do.

Second, there is nothing in the media and the education process that brings up any thing negative or critical of Christianity. None of atrocities commited by Christian missionaries both in their homelands in the past (Inquisition and other similar wonderful activities) but also their quite bloody role in European imperialism - from active destruction of cultural records and icons to use of torture to convert (burning MesoAmerican texts or codices and the Goan Inquisition) - are brought up in any of our school texts. How many non-Christians are allowed to be enlightened about the sectarian violence that went on between the Chrostian sects? Compared to this "Hinduism" is bracketed with "casteism" and never told that the word "caste" (as strictly hierarchical by-birth and murderously repressive) itself is of Spanish origin and merrily tolerated by Spanish church authorities.

Third, the so-called categories of "repressed castes" and "permanent bonded labour" - both of doubtful truly historical and "Hindu" origin, have been officially given permanent status through constitutional means - through recognition of Scheduled castes. Which Hindu missionary will be allowed to blur these boundaries now protected legally?

I personally will be overjoyed to participate in any move that does exactly that - remove legal and constitutional recognition of categories that have very doubtful origins. These categories are a creation of convenience of colonial regimes and we can very well refuse to be bound by characterizations imposed on us by others. If the past atrocities of Christians missionaries can be erased away from Indian memory as not having been sourced from theology but an adjunct of "those times" and "political evils", then a similar logic should be applicable to claimed "Hindu atrocities" also.

You cannot claim to have competitive "winning of hearts" in the background of such overwhelming favouritism to whitewash one and blacken another.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 10 Oct 2009 00:37

If this was all the problem that the Hindu faces againt xtian proslytization, the problem would be fairly easy. Hinduism has more issues to deal with: The concept of prosletyzation is absent in Indic thought. This places a huge burden on Indic faiths, they can merely hope to retain what they have, but not actively embark on conversion drives. Secondly, Hinduism has been engaged in a practice of self-goals. Using silly caste/jaati/varna rules to prevent some members of Hinduism from achieving full participation in the Hindu faith is like offering those vast numbers on a silver plate to Xtians. (As Swami Vivekananda has pointed out, the same "lower" or "untouchable" person who was prevented from walking on the road, or drawing water from the well, now comes back as a Xtian or M, and he is allowed all those things. He said something on the lines of "It is not just one man less from the Hindu fold, but one more in the enemy camp.") Last but important point, if truth be told, the religious fervor of Hindus is much tepid as compared to that of the Xtian. Mormons can get their young men to devote 2 years (1.5 years for women) to devote for evangelism. In many churches in massa, the locals volunteer & go to dangerous places like A'stan, Iraq to "witness" for their faith. Don't be offended, but this shows courage in the face of immense danger in these lands. You would not be able to find in the Hindu youth anything near this kind of dedication. Money/resources are least of the problems. I am sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 10 Oct 2009 01:04

surinder wrote: In many churches in massa, the locals volunteer & go to dangerous places like A'stan, Iraq to "witness" for their faith. Money/resources are least of the problems. I am sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings.

Nothing to be worried about.
The colonization and plunder for resources, gold, silver started like this 1000 years back.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 10 Oct 2009 01:38

surinder,
prosleytizing has never been declared shameful by any of the rashtras or officially ensconced intellectuals whose majority belongs to one of the Abrahamic faiths. This is in severe contrast to the case for non-Abrahamic in India. Any proselytizing activity on the part of the "Hindu" is however represented as a political activity aimed by "evil" "right wing fascists" or "retrogressive superstitious godmen". Politics and "fascist" tendencies are found only if the attempt potentially can expand the number of "Hindus" - it is perfectly normal and progressive and democratic if it is done by the Abrahamic.

Anyway, hopefully we can end this discussion here. The same attitude that contrasts any expression of "Hindu" to be fascist can motivate us to interpret this discussion itself as an attempt at expounding fascism, and therfore as wonderfully non-politically expressed by many Thaparites - "equal in danger to that of Hitler" and to be immediately suppressed. Better if all other expressions from the same source can also be suppressed.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 10 Oct 2009 01:58

SwamyG wrote
Brihaspati ji: Earlier you had said that India would lose territory and huge losses, before some people seize the moment and turn it back. Do you still nurse that idea? Can it still happen? And how will it ever happen?

I think the scene is getting cloudy. I think the pressure now will be to do this more subtly. For the plan to succeed, they need to have the current GOI setup in power. this means they cannot do anything drastic that will jeopardize the political base of GOI. The basic strategy therefore will be to make the loss appear inevitable and a better option than face continuous hostility and trauma. Public justification is crucial. So massive incentives of "development", economic "benefits", psychological sops like international recognition will be offered.

And some degree of joint control proposed. But the fact is that once TSP gets more legal guarantees and frameworks to intervene that will be used to gradually change demographics and advance jihad in classic Islamist fashion. If the process is rapid and dramatic, it can generate adverse reaction politically for GOI. However if it is slow, and the same "trauma" strategy is continued over time, the hope is that the tactic that obtained TSP to start with in 1947 can be used to gradually expand territorially.

Until the UP and its upper Indian dependents are threatened and practically overrun, the basic dynamics we had discussed about core-periphery exchange on the Gangetic plains, will probably not kick in. Such an event separates the compromisers and collaborators who stay behind from non-compromisers who move out to fight from a different base. But the process can be a slow one.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 10 Oct 2009 02:50

brihaspati wrote:Third, the so-called categories of "repressed castes" and "permanent bonded labour" - both of doubtful truly historical and "Hindu" origin, have been officially given permanent status through constitutional means - through recognition of Scheduled castes. Which Hindu missionary will be allowed to blur these boundaries now protected legally?

I personally will be overjoyed to participate in any move that does exactly that - remove legal and constitutional recognition of categories that have very doubtful origins. These categories are a creation of convenience of colonial regimes and we can very well refuse to be bound by characterizations imposed on us by others. If the past atrocities of Christians missionaries can be erased away from Indian memory as not having been sourced from theology but an adjunct of "those times" and "political evils", then a similar logic should be applicable to claimed "Hindu atrocities" also.

You cannot claim to have competitive "winning of hearts" in the background of such overwhelming favouritism to whitewash one and blacken another.

Wow, some of the best set of sentences to come out of these forums.

Namaste {I bow to you}

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 10 Oct 2009 03:42

Until the UP and its upper Indian dependents are threatened and practically overrun, the basic dynamics we had discussed about core-periphery exchange on the Gangetic plains, will probably not kick in. Such an event separates the compromisers and collaborators who stay behind from non-compromisers who move out to fight from a different base. But the process can be a slow one.

By upper dependents do you mean all states north of UP

And all those plus UP gone, that is a large loss of territory. Now motivation is on the rest to reclaim that land and the people back to the Indic path? AP and TN are very well on the eyes and minds of the 1040-Window crowds. What is there to kick in?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 10 Oct 2009 03:59

It is the enforced separation of compromising and the non-compromising. So we have a greater concentration of non-compromisers who move to areas away from the overrun areas. AP and TN always come around in crisis. Yes with some "peripheral" problems too - the way Chennai was allowed to be made into an EIC base.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 10 Oct 2009 04:38

Brihaspati,
A quick question: Can you refer to a good book which can give details of all the xtian violence you mention?
Thanks.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 10 Oct 2009 05:35

Brihaspati ji: I simply can not fathom that people would move into the Central and Southern India, and then be able to launch a counter attack. I doubt if history is going to repeat itself, South might not have the capacity now to do much.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 10 Oct 2009 06:30

SwamyG wrote:Brihaspati ji: I simply can not fathom that people would move into the Central and Southern India, and then be able to launch a counter attack. I doubt if history is going to repeat itself, South might not have the capacity now to do much.

If one lives in that area it becomes apparent what it means.
The nation will rally since the memories are long.

Abhi_G · Post by **Abhi_G** » 10 Oct 2009 07:22

brihaspati wrote:It is the enforced separation of compromising and the non-compromising. So we have a greater concentration of non-compromisers who move to areas away from the overrun areas. AP and TN always come around in crisis. Yes with some "peripheral" problems too - the way Chennai was allowed to be made into an EIC base.

Retreat in any form to the south means a permanent loss of northern areas of influence. Such a loss is equivalent to suicide for the entire nation. Sorry Brihaspati-ji, I probably have not understood your explanation.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 10 Oct 2009 10:31

brihaspati wrote:
Third, the so-called categories of "repressed castes" and "permanent bonded labour" - both of doubtful truly historical and "Hindu" origin, have been officially given permanent status through constitutional means - through recognition of Scheduled castes. Which Hindu missionary will be allowed to blur these boundaries now protected legally?

.

This is the trickiest of the three to pull off.

Thanks to the internet and new media: money, activism and even education about Abrahamic methods can be pursued in ways that the rashtriya apparatus may find difficult to keep up with silencing.

Deconstructing the deeply-entrenched myth of "repressed castes" etc. as being part and parcel of the Hindu social order is much harder. Can you point to any reference material from which the necessary arguments could be sourced? TIA.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 10 Oct 2009 13:11

brihaspati wrote:

Third, the so-called categories of "repressed castes" and "permanent bonded labour" - both of doubtful truly historical and "Hindu" origin, have been officially given permanent status through constitutional means - through recognition of Scheduled castes. Which Hindu missionary will be allowed to blur these boundaries now protected legally?

This continuous status being given is a way to ensure that the concept is kept alive for political reasons.

However, why should Hindu missionaries fight shy to blur the boundaries? Good education, free health, good hygiene, better housing will work.

How come a converted Schedule Caste gets smarter and acceptable than the non converted? There are so many converted SC who have become Ministers also who speak with dedication and have the elan and yet there are genuine high class Hindu Ministers who come out as total bumpkins, rustic, crude, steeped in superstitions etc. Why?

Give it a thought.

I am not aware of what caste Ramadoss' family came from before being converted. The name appears Christian and his family could not have been Christians from Vedic times! Yet against all opposition including big money of the tobacco and bidi industry, film stars, politicians he fought and got the ban on smoking in public places (I am a chain smoker!). He also was the rare one who spoke against Article 377 (that went against the tenets of Christianity and all religions of the country!). And he always was well dressed and did not pander to the 'am admi' fraud (of being shabbily dressed or flaunting a huge colourful turban that they otherwise would not be caught dead with!) that is perpetuated by most!

The problem I find is finding scapegoats and not doing a sausage that one could do and change the situation. All talk, complaints, cribs and no go!

A crab like situation!

Pull down those who are getting out of the pail!

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 10 Oct 2009 16:24

Anbumani Ramadoss is from a Hindu vanniar family.

I had no idea until now that he had something to do with Art. 377.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 10 Oct 2009 16:33

Acharya: Your words are too cryptic. Can you elaborate?

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 10 Oct 2009 17:08

The christists have some convenient sticks to beat hindus with.One is the bogus claims of christism to equality.Just look at the record of white christists.Our problem is with gora christists than christism itself.The gora christists record on jews,blacks,asiatics,indians speaks for itself.

We are told adnauseam that the evil upper castes are oppressing the dalits etc.Was there no oppression of Native Americans and blacks in US.Were there no kings,nobles and priests in Europe.Was there no feudalism,serfs,bonded labour in Orthodox russia.

In TSPA and Saudi Barbaria,is there no feudalism or monarchy.These are religions of the Book.

Why is Hinduism which has enormous diversity within it being pilloried?

Has there been no land reform in Bengal?What about reservation for scs and obcs in almost every state.Have not farmers and dalits been empowered by franchise.Are they not CMs of many states.

India was raped and mutilated by the British.We do not say Hinduism is perfect.We are an open society.We have no clue as to how the society will evolve.There are checks and balances.We have made progress in some areas.But much remains to be done.New problems emerge.

The christists and muslims are getting funds from abroad.They have money to splurge.It is not coming from the savings or productivity of Indians.The Hindus because of their generosity are tolerating this frontal assault only because some basic facilities are provided to some indians.Even though they are becoming vote banks and are being brainswashed to hate fellow indians and the idea of India.Little creativity or any high value work is done by missionary inspiration though hatred for india is indoctrinated.We still tolerate it because of our respect of freedom and the imperative for basic amenities to reach all indians.Just think for a minute whether this (was) will be tolerated in Texas or Rome or Arabia or brazil.Lip service to human rights in West is made after the goras have reached an 'unassilable' position.Cut throat competition,free market is their mantra in their societies as wll as in their relationships with others but quotas,proportional reservations,religion based vote banks to undermine india.

Is the christist elite in Kerala any superior than the hindu in morality?

History records that the thinkers of Upanishads to Buddha to Alwars to Ramanuja to Jnanadeva to the Sikh Gurus have raised the revolt against orthodoxy.What is this nonsense about unchanging Hindu oppression.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 10 Oct 2009 17:30

One thing we have to remember India was a land of great riches all along. How come it became so poor in last 200 plus years. You have answer to many questions there. How can a society so bad can create such richness in materials, thoughts, arts, mathamatics and what not. some one has to ask the question to our leftist historians.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 10 Oct 2009 17:56

SwamyG wrote:Acharya: Your words are too cryptic. Can you elaborate?

It is a survival question.

There is long historical memory of massive killings by muslims in the north India. There is no one large historical temple which is still existing in north India.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 10 Oct 2009 18:28

surinder,
starting with replying to you:

For christian persecution of "Hellenes" look at this summary from a Greek author,
http://ethnikoi.org/persecutions.html
Although libcom is supposed to be left leaning, this article is firmly rooted in historical narratives: a good intro about European rampage on the New World :
http://libcom.org/a-peoples-history-of- ... n-progress
Sesha Samajawira gives another viewpoint :
http://www.crusadewatch.org/index.php?o ... &Itemid=26
Can explore this site also : http://www.crusadewatch.org/
Another site to explore is from this summary page (the refs given are accurate, so their proposition has some basis) http://freetruth.50webs.org/Summary.htm Their main site is also useful.
If you dont dislike Sita Ram Goel, try this out http://hamsa.org/artifice-intro.htm.

added later:
Look at the Niyogi committee report of 1956 as quoted in http://www.bharatvani.org/books/ncr/
For Canadian massacre by the Church http://hiddenfromhistory.org/
For Goa - look at
Alfredo De Mello 'Memoirs of Goa'
Memoirs of Judges Magalhaes and Lousada: Vol 2, Annaes Maritimos e Coloniais
Joao Felix Pereira in Historia de Portugal

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 10 Oct 2009 18:38

krishnapremi wrote:The christists and muslims are getting funds from abroad.They have money to splurge.It is not coming from the savings or productivity of Indians.

Nowadays, the funding comes from Indian taxpayers (e.g. Haj subsidy) and from donations to Hindu temples (e.g. Tirupati, which is controlled by YSR gang).

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 10 Oct 2009 18:50

Abhi_G wrote:
brihaspati wrote:It is the enforced separation of compromising and the non-compromising. So we have a greater concentration of non-compromisers who move to areas away from the overrun areas. AP and TN always come around in crisis. Yes with some "peripheral" problems too - the way Chennai was allowed to be made into an EIC base.
Retreat in any form to the south means a permanent loss of northern areas of influence. Such a loss is equivalent to suicide for the entire nation. Sorry Brihaspati-ji, I probably have not understood your explanation.

Nothing is permanent, Mitr..

Given the current sense of resurgence in Indian society (which bulkly is made up of followers of so called Hindu"ism"), the memory of their past riches and growing prospects of reattaining those past riches are being manifested at higher frequency.

The power-holders of the Gangetic valley have entered into some sort of power-sharing equilibrium with high degree of Mercenary and Mercantile character (If you recall the posts of Brihaspati ji about mercantile mentality). This power-sharing equilibrium has seeped into lower strata of society as well.

However, on the other side, the newer generations show decreased influence of Daasya-Sanskaar on them (Sanskars of slavery and dhimmitude). When generation born in 1980's and post emergency era start arriving at the helm of the government, this freedom will be manifested with increasing magnitude.

This tussle between the two forces (the power-sharing equilibrium which tries to maintain the power-system in Gangetic valley as it is and rise of Daasya-Sanskaar-Shoonya newer generation with bright prospects of earning past riches legitimately) is seen maximum in North. There is a certain degree of shame in that youth about the current apathy of Gangetic plains. However, they don't have any idea of channelizing their agony in certain directions which is beneficial for Gangetic plains as well as Rashtra as a whole. And this confusion is utilized by the established power-holders to bolster their power-base.

This complex equilibrium of two forces can be disrupted when certain third external forces unbalances the vector sum of acting forces on the region and subsequently India. The shame, the indignation, the defeat and the loss can cause an uproar of public sentiments. Just like it happened in 1857.

What happened in 1857 was manifestation of whatever amount of virility that was left in that region after 1000 years of dhimmitude. The external enemy was clear and public rose. The ruthless suppression of that volcano pacified that region beyond redemption for almost 150 years now. The youth of that region is slowly coming out of that renewed Daasya-Sanskaras.

My fear is this - In case of invasion by chinese, if we loose the hold over gangetic plains temporarily, and Jihadis support Hindu cause of liberation, that will further confuse Hindus for next 100 years about the modus operandi of tackling with Jihadis in post liberation era. Pakistan alone is not capable of such invasion on Gangetic plains. There needs a situation that in case there is a loss, the Indic youth identifies Jihadi mentality as the invader as well along with anyone who is the direct invader. Similarly, the established power-sharing elite must be completely dismantled in that high-energy state.

It is too much to ask, but as Krishna said " Gahanaa karmaNo Gati:" - "Karma moves in mysterious way".

I place my bets on some major Phuck-up in Kashmir and Nepal by some one from Gandhi dynasty in 2019-2024 Loksabha tenure.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 10 Oct 2009 19:25

Both SwamyG-ji and AbhiG-ji,
you have expressed similar concerns. Yes the reach of an empire/militarily defensible rashtra depends on the speed of communication and transport of men and material available at its historical period. So what makes me sure that anything of the "south" will be left if the northern defences are broken or breached? Nowadays, it need not be the relatively slower troop transport of Turko Afghan or Mughal days and the smaller range of projectiles that allowed a Vijayanagar to come up.

But there can be other reasons why the south will be left out in the short while. Fall of the south loses the toe-hold on the subcontinent for those international powers who would agree to this concession. Then it means all future influences will have to be made on Jihadi soil from a long distance over the open ocean from bases in the islands etc in IOR but no land base. So any such concession will have to be finely balanced. Also the relative strength, rapidity and strategic viewpoint of the Jihadis have to be considered. Their key will be to link up the Islamics all along the Gangetic plains. Once they can do that they are forming a continuous Islamic corridor to Indonesia, and they are sitting on the main traditional trade networks which they would need to survive after the projected "oil runs out".

A retreating and weakened India can still consolidate and hold out on the peninsula using its naval power - which the Jihadis lack and which cannot be augmented too much by the PRC. But the peninsula is much easier to defend if you also have a good navy - compared to the flat lands of the northern plains where massed Jihad style terror with potential support from fifth columnists can make it easier for Islamists.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 10 Oct 2009 19:42

RayC,
the question is not about doing relief work. Both the "Hindu" missions and the Christians do this. The question where they differ is over "conversion". Whether or not you use relief as price or obligation for conversion. Conversion activity by "Hindus" are severely curtailed - mostly under the excuse of possibility of deteriorating law and order situation. Actually as long as "Hindu" missions remain strictly within charity among Hindus it is okay! But if they try to stop the monetary competition of "charity" or reconvert those who had "converted" out - a Lakshmananda Saraswati results.

Okay, where your argument has merits is that if the Christians are suceeding to make "Hindus" feel obliged because of their material needs, then why cannot the Hindus fill up this need and prevent the conversion. The question to consider here is that whether a culture of "charity" and "economic dependence" is not more suited to the colonial system than a self-sustaining one? From the self-sustaining viewpoint, skills development and advancing basic capital should be the main method and not Christian mission style one-off largesse or charity (or even promises - most of the time it is not really delivered).

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 10 Oct 2009 19:49

Rudradevji,
I think I dropped an outline of my approach to the problem before in several threads. But I guess some got deleted with the threads for obvious reasons. I will have to think on how to pose it again. But the current atmosphere of self-censorship may not be conducive. Bear with me.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 10 Oct 2009 22:40

Brihaspati,

I do not question your contentions.

All I say is that if the Christians can convert without impunity, what stops the Hindus from doing so? There have been cases of such‘re-conversions’. If ‘charity’ and ‘economic dependence’ is a colonial legacy and it works, who has stopped anyone from using a successful tool?

Let us keep the flock together and then talk about enhancement of skill =development. Roti, Kapda, Makan, Ilm (education) and Sheth (health) first!

Very few care about Ram and his exploits when illiteracy, hunger pangs and rain is all that he experiences!

You must read 'The Boy who Harnessed the Wind'. It is about a Kenyan school drop out!

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 10 Oct 2009 23:00

Chiron:
Though the new generations might show less of Daasya-sanskar, they show modern-sanskar which is not totally Indic. So before the tussle between the status-quo crowd in the GV (gangetic valley) and the new generation there is going to be a tussle between the modern generation themselves. One can not discount this into the equations.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 10 Oct 2009 23:03

Brihaspati ji:
In your thoughts I see a hole. The hole is that you think the South has not been already breached. One does not have to have a foreign boots on the soil to change minds. As you highlight in the present days, the information age has made 'alien' thoughts already into our minds. These have spellbound the modern Indians.