India-China News and Discussion

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Locked
wilson_th
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 53
Joined: 03 Jul 2009 14:16

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by wilson_th »

The Dalai Lama, who has been in poor health, has said that he would not feel obligated to nominate a successor from, or be reborn in, Tibet proper, raising the possibility that the next Dalai Lama could be named outside China -- in the Tibetan cultural belt that stretches across northern India into Bhutan and Nepal.
Some Indian strategists fear that China may act to preempt, or respond to, an announcement of the Dalai Lama's chosen successor in India - particularly in Tawang


is it the reason why they are raking up the Arunachal issue now so that the rest of tibetians in china will think that if there is a successor from Tawang made by Dalai Lama, it should look to the world & chinese that he comes from a territory that should have been under china.
Dhiman
BRFite
Posts: 527
Joined: 29 Nov 2008 13:56

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Dhiman »

Bade wrote:Image

Wish it was the middle finger poking at PRC.
Arunachal vote high, China salvo at PM
Only the middle finger should be marked with indelible ink in Arunachal :mrgreen:
Dhiman
BRFite
Posts: 527
Joined: 29 Nov 2008 13:56

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Dhiman »

Masaru wrote:The original article is here. As usual Chindu goes for preemptive strike and presents an edited version; before other news outlets publish the full story.
Indian hegemony continues to harm relations with neighbors
Based on my superior linguistic analysis skills, it is quite obvious and apparent that CCP has taken the services of Osama in coming up with their diatribes. So Osama must be hiding in China. Q.E.D.

Typical bully behavior in any case, show them the finger (recent statements on POK) and they will start name calling. I bet if someone slaps them, they will start crying.
Last edited by Dhiman on 15 Oct 2009 10:48, edited 1 time in total.
kmkraoind
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3908
Joined: 27 Jun 2008 00:24

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by kmkraoind »

Arunachal turnout positive: US envoy
Calcutta, Oct. 14: US ambassador to India Timothy J. Roemer today said the highest ever turnout in the Arunachal Pradesh Assembly elections was a “positive” sign.

“It is very positive to see people turning out in thousands at polling places yesterday. We will respect the outcome of the election,” said Roemer, in Calcutta on a two-day trip.
The US-India relationship, he added, is based on a shared strategic interest and “agreement about the threat of extreme radicalism that can come from places like Pakistan”.
There are only permanent interests, no permanent friends in international relationships. Some may argue that India becomes poodle to US if we enter a startaegic relationship with US. Even USSR times also, India never voiced independently. Best example in 1960s during eastern Europe uprisings, USSR crushed with force, why then India did not even protest it, what did you call it. At least indirectly US envoy is supporting indirectly on Arunchal issue. I see no statement or support from Russia today.

Even during 1962 crisis, USSR avoided helping India, saying its a fight between friend and brother. Once China gave its medicine later to USSR, it started helping arming India.

While Russian president is signing multi-billion dollars in China, China is rising temperatures with its statement against. What Russia-China wants to convey to India in this regard. May be Russia is offering better armaments than China in its class, but is does not means it will give support if real crisis erupts tomorrow. If we face pakis, Russia will help. If we face China, will Russia help ?
csharma
BRFite
Posts: 695
Joined: 12 Jul 1999 11:31

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by csharma »

Now, even B Raman is convinced that China is turning hostile.

http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/%5Cpap ... r3460.html

Chinese Media Revert to Pre-Deng Rhetoric on India
Its description of India's policy of "befriending the far and attacking the near" is unmistakably a reference to the developing strategic relations between India and the US the foundation for which was laid by the previous US President George Bush. Since President Barack Obama assumed office, he has been trying to exclude from this relationship aspects which could cause concern to China. Despite the positive attitude of the Obama Administration to China, Beijing continues to view the India-US strategic relations with suspicion and continues to suspect a common Indo-US objective of countering China.
D Roy
BRFite
Posts: 1176
Joined: 08 Oct 2009 17:28

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by D Roy »

You know,

I don't quite like this statement by the unkil plenipotentiary:

"We will respect the outcome of the election,”

What the effing is that anyway?
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21537
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Philip »

How the CHindu and the Indian Express see the current spat between China and India.

The CHindu:In the main headlines and leaders.

"Amid tensions PM Wen to meet Indian PM..."

"PM Wen will meet his Indian counterpart at the forthcoming ASEAN meet,he looks forward to meeting Dr.Singh ..."

"..China said it was strongly dissatisfied with Dr.Singh's recent visit to AP..."

"India ASKS China to stop development activity in POK"

"China's Communist party accuses India of HEGEMONIC ambitions in S.Asia"

..and in the small print,"BJP calls for all party meet","Krishna Iyer writes to PM "(protesting against Chinese ),MMS well within rights,Pranab.

The Indian Express:

"Stay off POK projects,India tells China in uncharacteristically SHARP riposte"

"Employment visas only for highly skilled Chinese"

"China's stand surprises IAF.."

"BJP calls for consensus on reply to China"

Which paper represents India's interests and which China's? No prizes for correct answers.

Meanwhile,the Chinese "Invasion" of Africa.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 02827.html
Money and Mandarin lessons fuel China's African invasion

From Liberia to Ethiopia, Beijing is constructing a 21st century empire thousands of miles from home

By Daniel Howden

A Senegalese man waves a Chinese flag in Dakar as he waits for Chinese President Hu Jintao's arrival

This afternoon more than a dozen Liberians are expected at the Samuel Doe sports stadium in the capital, Monrovia. In a makeshift classroom with some plastic chairs and a whiteboard their teacher, Li Peng, is waiting to finish the group's second week of instruction in Mandarin Chinese. Early attendances at the free daily lessons provided by the Chinese embassy have been poor, but officials are blaming heavy rain rather than light interest. The class is still struggling with the basics and few Chinese listeners apart from their teacher would recognise the strange "hellos" and "goodbyes" being called out.

"Learning Chinese may prove difficult," Mr Li admitted. "But if they work hard they will make it."

The West African country set up to settle freed American slaves in 1843 is English-speaking and the going is hard.

Related articles
Ian Birrell: This massive invasion will benefit the continent
John Cooper, a 57-year-old who has been attending the two-hour classes and works at a nearby youth centre, is determined to master Mandarin.

"Traditionally, we Liberians are closer to the Americans than we are to the Chinese," he says. "But the irony is that the Chinese are more open to us than the Americans are."

Liberia's government has no Mandarin speakers, and China's ambassador, Zhou Yuxiao, admits that he's uncomfortable that multibillion-dollar accords between the two countries are signed with one side unable to read the documents.

"We feel a little bit guilty at not being able to help Liberians to speak our language," he told the Associated Press.

On the same day last week that the Mandarin lessons were getting under way at the stadium in Monrovia, a much larger crowd was gathering about 300 miles to the northwest at another sports stadium, this time in Conakry, the capital of Guinea. The people had gathered to protest against the military junta and a young army officer, Moussa Dadis Camara, who with wearying predictability has been considering going back on earlier promises to hold free elections.

While Liberian students were grappling with Mandarin vowels more than 150 Guineans were being murdered. Scores of women were then raped. The massacre prompted international outrage, and the African Union meets next week to discuss possible sanctions. But it was revealed this week that China was preparing to throw the regime a lifeline in the form of nearly £4.3bn in oil and minerals deals.

It has left many wondering which is the real face of China in Africa: is it the quest for understanding being led by Mr Li in Monrovia? Or the naked pursuit of raw materials whose sale props up abusive governments like the one in Conakry?

China's engagement in Africa was supposed to have changed, experts say. Beijing's doctrine of "non-interference" in the domestic affairs of other countries was put to one side last year as it helped to nudge Sudan, one of its major oil suppliers, into allowing a beefed-up UN peacekeeping operation in Darfur. Then on a visit earlier this year China's president, Hu Jintao, signalled Beijing's intent to double aid to Africa.

According to Ian Taylor, a senior lecturer in international affairs at the University of St Andrews, the apparent contradiction is the product of a "clueless" approach to Beijing – "a tendency to treat China as if it's 'China Inc'."

Speaking from Beijing, he said: "There is no one Chinese policy towards Africa – it is a mixture of often-competing actors and influences that may or may not gel with official policy."

Chinese trade with Africa has grown from less than £6.3bn at the beginning of the decade to pass £60bn at the end of last year – only the European Union and the US do more business.

There are now some 800 Chinese companies operating in Africa and the investors in talks in Conakry are not from Beijing but from the Hong Kong-based China Investment Fund. Yet only two months ago officials in Beijing said that China would not be investing in Guinea.

"It's not clear if the CIF has the support of Beijing," said Dr Chris Alden, author of China in Africa. "Just like ordinary Western actors in Africa, China has independent actors who take decisions without reference to central government."

And some analysts suggest China's no-strings-attached approach in pariah states like Sudan and Zimbabwe is not the whole story.

Some 25 years after Band-Aid seared Ethiopia into the Western consciousness and conscience, China's engagement with Addis Ababa may say more about the Sino-African relationship. Whatever the achievements or shortcomings of famine-inspired aid in the Horn of Africa nation, they are being dwarfed by the Chinese-backed transformation of the country.

Ethiopia boasts none of the reservoirs of raw materials China is normally associated with, but Beijing has been doling out the credit to build roads and hydroelectric dams and is now financing a £940m expansion of the state-owned mobile telephone network.

In a recent paper for The South African Institute of International Affairs, Dr Monika Thakur found China's role in Ethiopia contradicted the spectre of the hungry dragon invoked by some in the West.

"China's activities in Ethiopia, and in Africa in general, are part of its continuing emergence as a global power, and as such are no different from what major powers traditionally have done," she wrote.

"Overarching judgements as to whether China's engagement is a blessing or a curse for Ethiopia are still unclear. What is certain is that the country can derive much from China's economic engagement."

The government in Addis Ababa has enjoyed the increased influence over Western donors that Chinese help has afforded.

"I think it would be wrong for people in the West to assume that they can buy good governance in Africa; good governance can only come from inside," Ethiopia's prime minister, Meles Zenawi, told the Financial Times recently. "What the Chinese have done is explode that illusion."

Mr Zenawi's government does not attract headlines in the way that Sudan's Omar al-Bashir does, but his administration has overseen the violent suppression of opposition in the wake of disputed elections. And he has since jailed popular opponents, such as opposition leader Birtukan Mideksa.

Dr Thakur warns that Addis Ababa could use Chinese assistance to avoid change – which could lead to "authoritarian stagnation".

However, China's own emergence as a great power, and the legitimacy of the one-party rule in Beijing, has been based on economic growth. Those looking for a champion of human or political rights are likely to be disappointed.

"The jury is still out on the significance of China's actions on Darfur," argues Dr Alden. "It's up to Africans to decide if China is having a positive or negative impact on rights in Africa. On the whole China is having a fairly neutral impact – it's really more about economic development."
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66589
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Singha »

using the old dictum of know thy enemy as much as you know yourself , I am busy reading a book on history of china by john keay.

it meanders on from its ancient roots and mythical 'five emperors era' much as any other ancient civilization ... a few hundred years period of 'warring states' as the zhou empire declined... until a decisive break from the pattern occurs around the 350BC mark in the rise to power of a kingdom known as Qin in the upper reaches of the yellow river (an area that is today the exact geographic center of political boundary of china...Qinghai/Shanxi/Shaanxi/Ningxia).

I will post more details later but suffice it say the brutal subjugation of all peoples -- friends and foes, a complex and all pervasive regime of punishments, organization of groups of households to hold collective responsibility for fighting together and to report 'dissidence', all-out war on other competing kingdoms like Wei, Shu, Zhao, Zhou, Chu...etc and finally total victory under King Zheng who crowned himself Shi Huangdi (the first emperor). the nature of Chinese state had changed from systems of alliances and feudal tributes typical of the prior dynasties to absolutely centralized rule and appointment of governors, backed by a huge professional army (not feudal levies led by their lords) and draconian laws and spies in the woodwork.

and the next big dynasty to the Qin , who perfected and refined its 'efficient methods' were ...(drumroll)...The Han :mrgreen: :twisted:

fascinating reading about what makes the panda what it is. so basically they have been
perfecting and refining their methods for around 2300 years now.
Arihant
BRFite
Posts: 199
Joined: 02 Aug 2009 05:17

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Arihant »

harbans wrote:Ok on the language front, there's not much clarity. But again seems British scholars in the early 19th century did language family stereotyping in racial methodology.
In 1823, Julius Klaproth suggested a modern-looking classification, nothing similar to which would be proposed again for over a century. He noted that the Burmese, Tibetan, and Chinese all shared common basic vocabulary, but that Thai and Vietnamese were quite different.

However, large-scale linguistic classification of the time was largely based on race rather than the languages themselves. For example, in 1855 Max Müller divided Eurasian languages into four families: Semitic, Aryan (Indo-European), Chinese, and Turanian (everything else; e.g. Northern Turanian was Ural-Altaic). (Later writers would include Chinese within Turanian.) Competing with this idea, and eventually winning out, was "Indo-Chinese". Nathan Brown used the term in 1837 for all "Oriental" languages except for Altaic and Dravidian (but including Korean and Japanese, as well as the languages of the Pacific islands). There was continuing debate between racially and linguistically based theories.

---

A few scholars, most prominently Christopher Beckwith and Roy Andrew Miller, argue that Chinese is not related to Tibeto-Burman. They point to an absence of regular sound correspondences, an absence of reconstructable shared morphology,[1] and evidence that much shared lexical material has been borrowed from Chinese into Tibeto-Burman.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Tibetan_languages

India has a different outlook to 'Indic inclusivity' based on cultural constructs and not racial ones. Having worked with many nationalities and being a 'North' Indian, i find it easier getting along with people who tend to think alike than just being racially similar to me. So Paki's are out for me and my closest circle of friends includes different racial groups and Tibetans too. Frankly i feel quite comfortable talking and opening up to many Americans than i can do with Paki's for that matter.

China believes more in the racial contiguity context all within the ambit of a harsh and authoritarian political context and makes friends accordingly. North Korea, Pakistan, Myanmar or props groups that support that sort of ideology. IMHO the battlelines are always drawn on ideological basis. This applies to the context India-Pakistan-China too.

The moment we abandon our shared cultural heritage in favor of 'controversial' racial and authoritarian approaches, classically reinforced by a resurgent liberal left wing analysis of events, we not only obfuscate the truth, but will fail to defend ourselves slowly. Planners in China see this dilemna India faces quite clearly. Planners in Pakistan see it too. Thats why the claims in AP. Sikkim, Bhutan, Maoists etc. India will once again have to stand up in defence of it's basic tolerant, pluralistic Indic heritage. It starts fundamentally with reclaiming our lost Indo-Tibetan kinship and refuting Han claims based on racial contiguity.

The ideological divide is clear and people will have to see it that way. China has already barked up the wrong way last 70 years. India is wiser it knows totalitarianism will eventually meet it's 72. But India cannot sit down and do nothing thinking it will happen on auto. India must be clear what it wants to defend. I met people today who said AP and Kashmir was not ours..i sure did give a nasty dressing down to a few. Hope you understand the implications of playing the dragons game..

Anyways Roy ji welcome to the forum.
Something that always disturbs Chinese academics is the observation that Tibetan is an Indic language. It's script is quite similar to Devanagari, but even closer to eastern Indian languages (Oriya, Bengali, Assamese etc.). This suggests roots in Pali. There is also a significant intersection in the spoken language. On an interesting note, this is also the case for Thai and Lao (can't say much about Burmese or Khmer, having had no first-hand experience). A lot of the written and spoken language (in the instance of Thai and Lao) will be comprehensible to Indians with a bit of guesswork, and once again, the proximity is greatest with eastern Indian languages. The Chinese have taken to repeating the assertion (naively stated as) "Tibetan culture is a part of Chinese culture" ad nauseum in the hope that it will turn into a truism. There is also a brand new (manufactured) body of scholarly work on "Sino-Tibetan" language and culture. They've taken to doing that with Thai as well (suggesting future designs on Thai territory).

China takes the business of manufacturing history very seriously. Like the rest of its manufacturing, the end product is pretty shoddy, but it doesn't stop them from getting some mileage from it. It's manufactured history relative to Taiwan is well-known. It has rattled South Koreans with its "North-Eastern Historical Project" (involving several hundred historians) that posits the manufactured reality of an ancient Chinese kingdom (Koguryo) in current South Korean territory. Many South Koreans worry about a gradual transition to "breakaway province" status akin to Taiwan. More recently, the Chinese have putting out initial attempts to do something similar with other nations on its periphery.

There is also a sudden deluge of historical insight into this mythical Admiral Cheng He, and his fantastic 1000-ship fleet (each ship bigger than any the world had seen till then) that sailed through South-East Asia, Sri Lanka, South India and East Africa, turning each state that he visited into a Chinese vassal. Methinks the outlines of the future Chinese empire are being manufactured very carefully by Chinese historians.

Then there are Western scholars (and self-styled scholars) who are quickly signing up to the Chinese world-view. There is a book suggesting that Admiral Cheng He might have beat Columbus to North America that I have seen displayed quite prominently in a lot of Asian airport bookstores. Western scholars specializing in China studies are kept on a pretty tight leash by Beijing, and are obliged to mainly toe the party line. Given that they are beholden to Beijing for access to material, their academic futures are effectively held at ransom. Some have written in protest (I'll try to dig up links if there is interest).

All the while, the Indians remain the nice guys, and play the decent game....
harbans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4883
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 05:01
Location: Dehradun

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by harbans »

India must signal its change in strategy by reversing at least partially its unconditional recognition of Tibet; a monumental decision akin to a diplomatic earthquake that India maybe hesitant to entertain but one that targets China's Achilles Heel, fair and square. An outright rejection of China's claim to Tibet is not warranted but a statement couched in enough ambiguity to cause China some discomfiture should suffice; in effect playing by the same rules that China adheres to. Such a move is likely to produce results by placing China on the defensive. All along it has been India that has been at the receiving end reacting to an agenda scripted by China. This could turn the tables.
http://news.rediff.com/column/2009/oct/ ... -issue.htm
Atri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4153
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 21:07

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Atri »

harbans wrote:
India must signal its change in strategy by reversing at least partially its unconditional recognition of Tibet; a monumental decision akin to a diplomatic earthquake that India maybe hesitant to entertain but one that targets China's Achilles Heel, fair and square. An outright rejection of China's claim to Tibet is not warranted but a statement couched in enough ambiguity to cause China some discomfiture should suffice; in effect playing by the same rules that China adheres to. Such a move is likely to produce results by placing China on the defensive. All along it has been India that has been at the receiving end reacting to an agenda scripted by China. This could turn the tables.
http://news.rediff.com/column/2009/oct/ ... -issue.htm
From the first comment on the article -
By Prakash Mankad
India should remind China of this UN regulation..

12 December 1961

Resolution 1723 (XVI) called for "the cessation of practices which deprive the Tibetan people of their fundamental human rights and freedom including their rights to self-determination."
harbans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4883
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 05:01
Location: Dehradun

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by harbans »

Something that always disturbs Chinese academics is the observation that Tibetan is an Indic language. It's script is quite similar to Devanagari, but even closer to eastern Indian languages (Oriya, Bengali, Assamese etc.). This suggests roots in Pali. There is also a significant intersection in the spoken language. On an interesting note, this is also the case for Thai and Lao (can't say much about Burmese or Khmer, having had no first-hand experience). A lot of the written and spoken language (in the instance of Thai and Lao) will be comprehensible to Indians with a bit of guesswork, and once again, the proximity is greatest with eastern Indian languages. The Chinese have taken to repeating the assertion (naively stated as) "Tibetan culture is a part of Chinese culture" ad nauseum in the hope that it will turn into a truism. There is also a brand new (manufactured) body of scholarly work on "Sino-Tibetan" language and culture. They've taken to doing that with Thai as well (suggesting future designs on Thai territory).
Indeed this is not just an exercise in distorting history but also altering it around 180 degrees. PRC wants to claim Buddhism as it's own while it does all in it's power to push Tibet under the jackboots of the Han. So the claim on Bhutan, AP, Sikkim etc. Slowly with Nepals maoisation, Nepal will enter the PRC fold completely as a provonce. The last call will be Bodh Gaya. PRC would have completed it's 'cultural' conquest.

China has always had an authoritarian bent throughout it's history. It's still very racially motivated. It demands respect while doing little to earn it. China never influenced any part of Asia including it's own backyard throughout history. Do you seem ancient Chinese temples, scripts, culture in Thailand, Cambodia, Indonesia, Burma etc.

Talk about Korea, 6 million Koreans claim descent from a Princess in Ayodhya. Visit Japan, Korea and see how much Indic influence they have absorbed over millenia. China wants to break that soft dominance that India's creativity always produced by use of force and distortion of history. It's an uphill task and we have to be naive and utterly stupid to allow such to happen. However China has once again barked up the wrong totalitarian trip and it's H&D trip will not allow it to change course midstream. Ultimately once again it will falter and loose if it proceeds on this path.
D Roy
BRFite
Posts: 1176
Joined: 08 Oct 2009 17:28

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by D Roy »

Standard Tibetan script is based on Brahmi. Of course there is plenty of Pali/Sanskrit influence in the religious canon and given that Tantrika was given an exalted status in Tibetan religion, Tibet was always closer to what we call India.

However as someone who learnt Thai I can tell you, it is not comprehensible to any Indian speaker just because there are plenty of loan words from Sanskrit. As an analogy look at the sanskritized kannada spoken today. despite the vocabulary it is pretty much unintelligible to North Indians.
Just for the record, The eastern languages that you referred to are descended from a language called magdhan prakrit.

The six descendants of Magdhi Prakriti are:

A1 Bhojpuri B1 Bengali
A2 Maithili B2 Oriya
A3 Maghi B3 Ahomiya

The similarities between the tibetan languages and the eastern indo-aryan languages comes from ardhamagdhan prakrit which was preserved by Jain ascetics and used as a canonical language by them. This ardhamagdhan prakrit has a relationship with pali.
-------------------------------


All this is besides the point. What I am saying is there is no joy in destroying our own credibility by making unverified assertions about anything. That is the forte of our enemies.

It is not about being "nice". It is about being serious. And the way the Chinese are conducting themselves is anything but serious. And I don't think they can get away by lying forever. Nothing can. Moreover China itself is heavily influenced by Indian thought and culture. This is an undeniable fact and ithey won't be able to overturn this.
We should continue to hammer the established (researched) facts home to counter the bullshit being propounded by our enemies.
D Roy
BRFite
Posts: 1176
Joined: 08 Oct 2009 17:28

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by D Roy »

As far as the 'Chinese invented everything from the sundial to toilet paper' propaganda trip is concerned-

Its a waste of money. Here to, the "strategically sound" chinese have made the foolish mistake of hiring some paid western hacks to propagate the silly notion of the chinese "origins" of the 'modern world'.

What are we doing instead-

We are exporting gurus and gyration ( bollywood dancing) in this Oh so modern world and scoring heavily. I just hope for the sake of the Han that communism and new found prosperity has not dented the Chinese mind so much that they fail to read the writing on the wall. The Chinese are hopelessly outclassed by us in cultural terms and no amount of discovery cahnnel propaganda and acupuncture will suffice.

When they actually realize this (maybe they already have) and then seek to "compete" in soft power ( since they are essentially the biggest wannabe experiment in history) they will have to give freedom to their people. So India will win either way.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66589
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Singha »

the people of eastern tibet , myanmar and the older pre-ahom (non Tai) settlers of NE india like kacharis and dimasas are said to be more common. the population of Yunnan might also be related.

from the earliest dynasties the chinese have utilized writing for the purpose of administrative records and
propaganda records of the kings. turtle shells, shoulder blade bones of cows, bronze inscriptions, bamboo, silks everything was used. they take the propaganda and psyops thing very seriously from the hoary past, its part of the psyche and comes naturally.

the Qin dynasty I referred to a couple of posts above, made the decisive landgrab and move into southern
china by first befriending the king of Sichuan (the rice bowl and highest population of ancient and today's china) in the upper Yangzte river (immediately NE of Assam) and sending him a few stone cows covered in gold. there were two mountain ranges and no roads. so the Qin king kindly offered to build a difficult 500km long highway to convey the gifts.

after the gift came his army and swiftly defeated the docile Sichuanese :rotfl: he gained control of immense
agricultural and mineral wealth plus tradeable commodities like silk. then extended his claws east to the
coastal states of fujian and guangdong and south into Yunnan.

"beware of greeks bearing gifts" is also true "beware of chinese bearing gifts"

a totalitarian state ruled for 2300 yrs by a variety of despots using a system called "legalism" knows no
other way but zero-sum game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_% ... losophy%29

a charming excerpt: (pls read the entire above link - it describes the core set of principles by which the
chinese govt operates even today, with small changes)

Purpose of law

The whole system was set up to make model citizens behave and act how the dynasty wanted them to act against their will. The laws supported by the Legalists were meant to support the state, the emperor, and his military. They were also reform-oriented and innovative. In theory, the Legalists believed that if the punishments were heavy and the law equally applied, neither the powerful nor the weak would be able to escape state control. The Legalists especially emphasized pragmatism over precedence and custom as the basis of law. Guided by Legalist thought, the First Qin Emperor, Qin Shi Huang, would weaken the power of the feudal lords (although not completely as previously discussed), divide the unified empire into thirty-six administrative provinces, and standardize the writing system. Reflecting Legalist passion for order and structure, Qin soldiers were only mobilized when both halves of tiger-shaped tallies (one held by the ruler and the other by the commanding general) were brought together. Likewise, all documents in the empire had to have recorded the year they were written, the scribe who copied them, and up to the exact hour of delivery. Accepting Shang Yang’s earlier emphasis on the standardization of weights and measures, the Qin Shi Huang would also accept Shang Yang’s philosophy that no individual in the state should be above the law (by ensuring harsh punishments for all cases of dissent) and that families should be divided into smaller households. While there is reason to doubt Sima Qian’s claim that Qin Shi Huang did in fact divide households into groups of ten, certainly the other examples of standardization and administrative organization undertaken by the First Emperor reflect the importance of Legalist thought in Qin law. Based on promoting the interests of the state Qin, the law (Chinese: 法; pinyin: fǎ; literally "law, method, way, Buddhist teaching") served as a vehicle to both control the populace and eliminate dissent. People were forced to live as a part of the society or be removed (murdered). Legalism was also favored by government because it was about punishment and strict "back up" military forces.

Legalism and individual autonomy

The Legalist philosophers emphasized the primacy of the state over individual autonomy. The lone individual had no legitimate civil rights and any personal freedom had to strengthen the ruler. Han Fei, in particular, would be very caustic towards the concept of individual rights. Fundamentally, the Legalists viewed the plebeian (common people of lower class) and their actions as evil and foolish.

However, Legalism allowed the common people to gain in rank if they performed well. For example, soldiers would gain in rank according to the number of heads the soldiers collected. A soldier may even gain noble rank. In contrast, some other states allowed only the well-connected to gain higher ranks. An example of this would be Lü Buwei, who originally a merchant, was able to become Chancellor of China, an occurrence that would never happen in the other six states. However, it should be noted that he played a major role in King Zhuangxiang of Qin's rise to power.

According to Shang Yang's The Book of Lord Shang, the people themselves wanted a ruler to generate order. Social cohesion in the Legalist state mandated that the populace never escape punishment. The Qin dynasty used the people, for example, to maintain vigilant mutual surveillance over one another under threat of death.

This intrastate realpolitik would end up devouring the Legalist philosophers themselves. Shang Yang, in advocating the state’s right to punish even the heir-apparent’s tutor, would run afoul of the future King Huiwen of Qin (r. 338 -311 BCE). Whereas at one point, he had the power to exile his opponents (and, thus, eviscerate individual criticism) to border regions of the state, he died when torn into pieces by chariots. Similarly, Han Fei would end up being poisoned by his envious former classmate Li Si, who in turn would be killed (under the law he had introduced) by the violent Second Qin Emperor he had helped to take the thrones.
Last edited by Singha on 15 Oct 2009 20:57, edited 2 times in total.
neilmurali
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 27
Joined: 15 Oct 2009 20:35

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by neilmurali »


I think we are being too soft on china,the statements from the foreign office never seems to be stern.It is high time to control the situation now or else get dominated.
They have launched diwali guns in our country which actually fire and can severely burn anybody victimising a lot.
D Roy
BRFite
Posts: 1176
Joined: 08 Oct 2009 17:28

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by D Roy »

yes yes many of the kradai group of languages originate from Yunan, and the Thai are a little more "chinese" than the rest.

However han giri could not supplement desi giri in even the most chinese of the Kradai-Tai group.
Hari Seldon
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9374
Joined: 27 Jul 2009 12:47
Location: University of Trantor

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Hari Seldon »

China's rise is inevitable. It don't matter what moral high ground others take. When China will own all the ground there is, the moral high ground also will come to it.... bwahahahahahahaha
/sarc off.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66589
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Singha »

and here is the Book of Lord Shang, the chinese rasputin and founding 'father' of the legalism. modern panda apologists try to hide under the garb "oh we are confuscian onlee" - stuff and nonsense! read any material on Confuscianism and you will realize how different it is from "legalism" of this rasputin which from Qin dynasty onward is the basis of the centralized chinese state. Confuscian scholars were deeply critical of Lord Shang even in his era, but were exiled or buried alive and their works burned!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Lord_Shang
ArmenT
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 4239
Joined: 10 Sep 2007 05:57
Location: Loud, Proud, Ugly American

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by ArmenT »

D Roy wrote: We are exporting gurus and gyration ( bollywood dancing) in this Oh so modern world and scoring heavily. I just hope for the sake of the Han that communism and new found prosperity has not dented the Chinese mind so much that they fail to read the writing on the wall. The Chinese are hopelessly outclassed by us in cultural terms and no amount of discovery cahnnel propaganda and acupuncture will suffice.
Chinese did also export Kung-Fu into the western mindset, thanks to Bruce Lee. Unfortunately after the UFC tournaments started, kung-fu suffered a huge loss of H&D due to muay thai and Brazilian jiu jitsu specialists and enrollments in kung-fu schools took a downturn.
D Roy
BRFite
Posts: 1176
Joined: 08 Oct 2009 17:28

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by D Roy »

yes but in a world where woman power is growing , "martial arts" will cease to have the same aura. People will learn it , but less as a cultural thing and more as a means to beat up other people.
On the ohter hand yoga and gyration will do nicely in a more 'liberal' middle class world.
ss_roy
BRFite
Posts: 286
Joined: 15 Nov 2008 21:48

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by ss_roy »

The biggest obstacles to China's rise are their beliefs about how the world should work.

It sounds cryptic but it is not. Chinese do not believe that a system other than mercantilism is possible, however zero-sum behaviors cease to work after a few decades (or quicker now). Britain declined once it could extracted all the money/ resources it could from it's colonies. In some respects, the decline of britain started in the late 1800s, after that it was just inertia.

You see, chinese want all the money. But once they have all the money, who will give them more money? and what use is money that is not put back into creating more jobs/ innovations? Storing money works only works in a world that is zero sum, and where money retains value. Investing in real estate and rigged stock markets is malinvestment.

In a post-industrial world, spending money, creating well paying jobs and supporting new innovative endevours is far more important for growth and social stability than saving it.

The chinese suffer from the triple curse of mercantile thinking, hubris and dislike for innovation. Their demographic profiles are less than favorable too..
Satya_anveshi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3532
Joined: 08 Jan 2007 02:37

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Satya_anveshi »

Oh man..this goes for a review by SS Menon. Look at how he is sandwitching good and bad comments here. Looks like he gave his two assistants an assignment to review the book and give 4 para summary, one assistant talking all good and other providing critic. He just did a good-bad routine a few times and lo we have a review by SS Menon.

Our goals are different from China's: Menon
Malayappan
BRFite
Posts: 462
Joined: 18 Jul 2005 00:11

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Malayappan »

Some interesting observations in the link posted by Satya_anveshi

Some excerpts -
In the recent past we have heard much uninformed and alarmist comment on China, some of it from people who knew better when they were in government, but who seem to think that they know even better now that they no longer have access to the facts. I am amazed at the confidence with which assertions are made about present and future Chinese behavior on our borders, despite Government at the very highest levels and the Army Chief having made the facts clear.
As China changes and grows, so do her capabilities and her behavior. In the recent past, not all these changes have been positive or constructive, or in the interest of the smooth development of India-China relations. Prudence, self-interest and reason require that we in India analyze these changes coolly and rationally, and devise responses that maximize the pursuit of our interests. If the rise of India and China is the major geopolitical fact of our times, how we handle India-China relations must also be a major test of our statecraft.
Anyone in Delhi attended the function? It will be interesting to read the full transcript!
csharma
BRFite
Posts: 695
Joined: 12 Jul 1999 11:31

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by csharma »

From Menon's speech
Instead, we have a spectacle of breast beating, whining and wailing in some quarters that must give joy and assurance to anyone who might wish India harm.
Some of this has been seen on the forum as well :-)
negi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13112
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Ban se dar nahin lagta , chootiyon se lagta hai .

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by negi »

Co incidentally the breast beaters came into being when bravest of the brave and the cleverest amongst the entire human kind were at the helm as far as 1962 debacle is concerned. :twisted:

You see burnt child dreads the fire
Dhiman
BRFite
Posts: 527
Joined: 29 Nov 2008 13:56

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Dhiman »

csharma wrote:Now, even B Raman is convinced that China is turning hostile.

http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/%5Cpap ... r3460.html

Chinese Media Revert to Pre-Deng Rhetoric on India
Also from the same article:
10. Reports from Tibet and Xinjiang indicate that the People's Liberation Army (PLA) has been increasingly in the driving seat of decision-making in matters relating to these two provinces and China's relations with India. The more hawkish line adopted by the Chinese Foreign Ministry and the party media indicate that the hawks in the PLA and the party have started influencing the policy towards India.
Chinese Army is driving decision making regarding Tibet and Xinjiang and India (foreign policy)? Sounds more like what the Army does in Pakistan. I hope there are no multiple centers of power in China. It may be the case that the CCP civilian government is talking peace (although according to belligerent chinese standards) while the CCP Army is talking war. After recent uprisings in Tibet and Xinjiang, the Army may have the upper hand. Imagine dealing with Pakistan and its multiple power centers at a much larger scale. After recent uprisings in Tibet and Xinjiang, the hawks in CCP may be running the show now, but hiding behind the deal makers.
Dhiman
BRFite
Posts: 527
Joined: 29 Nov 2008 13:56

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Dhiman »

Seems like the Pakis are teaching the Chinese their standard practice of waging jihad in reality while faking peace through talks. Wonder who is learning from who? From http://www.tibetanreview.net/news.php?cat=10&&id=4623:
China raises pitch against India, though Premier Wen seeks talk

(TibetanReview.net, Oct16, 2009) While the Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao was reported to have sought a meeting with the Indian Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh during the upcoming meeting of the Association of South Eastern Nations in Thailand on Oct 23-25 to discuss their difference, the Chinese media has now accused New Delhi of having “hegemonic” ambitions in South Asia, according to the Times of India online Oct 14 and The Hindu Oct 15.

In what is possibly its strongest diatribe against India in recent memory, the Communist Party of China in two editorials in its official newspapers – the People’s Daily and the Global Times – Oct 13 accused India of “recklessness and arrogance” and “turning a blind eye” to China’s “concessions” in resolving the long-running boundary dispute.

The Hindu report cited the party mouthpiece People’s Daily as saying India was “obsessed” with a “hegemonic mentality” and “refused to drop the pretentious airs when dealing with neighbours like Pakistan.”

Pakistan’s Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani was in Beijing at the time and had, on Oct 13, discussed a highway project in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir with Chinese President Hu Jintao, raising concerns in New Delhi.

The Global Times, also a party mouthpiece but mean for international readers, said India would make “a fatal error” if it mistook “China’s approach for weakness.”

“The disputed border area is of strategic importance, and hence, India’s recent moves including Singh’s trip and approving past visits to the region by the Dalai Lama send the wrong signal. That could have dangerous consequences,” the report was quoted as saying.

On the other hand, the Times of India online Oct 14 reported that Chinese premier Wen had inquired from Murli Deora, India’s minister for petroleum & natural gas, whether Dr Singh would attend the meeting of the Association of South Eastern Nations in Thailand. When replied in the positive, Wen reportedly said he was looking forward to meeting with him.

Deora was representing Dr Singh at the Shanghai Cooperation Organization meeting in Beijing.
This page has been read 19 times.
Last updated on Oct 16, 2009 10:08:41
Hari Seldon
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9374
Joined: 27 Jul 2009 12:47
Location: University of Trantor

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Hari Seldon »

csharma wrote:From Menon's speech
Instead, we have a spectacle of breast beating, whining and wailing in some quarters that must give joy and assurance to anyone who might wish India harm.
Some of this has been seen on the forum as well :-)
SS Menon says it well.

For a second I got confused. Thought those were Krishna Menon's words. And then realized a communist saying words like that would no longer be a communist onlee.
ss_roy
BRFite
Posts: 286
Joined: 15 Nov 2008 21:48

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by ss_roy »

The 'china problem' might disappear faster than many think.

Chinese thinking is based on maintaining status quo for a civilization that existed almost unchanged from 500BC to 1850AD. I am not kidding.. the system did not change to any worthwhile extent for over 2,000 years. It is a system based on maintaining scarcity.

Their problem is that the industrial revolution and it's effects make everything they believe in counterproductive (you ain't seen nothing yet). If they don't change within the next 5 years, they are not going to ever come back. Jumping from the first floor of a building might not be lethal, but jumping from the 50th floor is...
KarthikSan
BRFite
Posts: 667
Joined: 22 Jan 2008 21:16
Location: Middle of Nowhere

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by KarthikSan »

FWIW, here's my two paise on the issue...Chinese attitude is that of a barking dog. It will only bite when it sees that the opponent is scared of it. Stand up and confront it, it will automatically slip away quietly. From my personal experience with the Chinese I've seen that they try to first intimidate you in an argument/debate but if you stand your ground and show them you are ready to get down and dirty they will be all for compromise. India should play the tough guy line here. Just let them know that if it comes to defending our country we won't think twice about lobbing a couple of nukes across the mountains and that should take care of it. Having said that, we should never let our guard down in any scenario.
ashish raval
BRFite
Posts: 1389
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 00:49
Location: London
Contact:

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by ashish raval »

Chinese believes that their hegemony is nationalism and India's nationalism is hegemony. These is the belief of their strategic thinkers !! I believe these is strategic thinking of anykind. It is a mere flawed observation. I am also surprised why the chinese still live in deng xio pang era. It is no longer Nehru's India. It has same concerns as your military has about us. It assumes that it is default power centre of asia and hennce tries the classical imperialistic move to hinder Indian rise. India should quietly dump enough fire power in each Arunachal home that chinese should get surprised at the level of resistance in event of attack. IA should also bring up Arunachal regiment, capable of defense in event of attack. One year of army education should be made mandatory in all the Border states of India. Every border state should develop its third line of defense besides IA and BSF.
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25359
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by SSridhar »

CPI Politburo member's take
Unfortunately, during this period China did not strictly adhere to the norm of maintaining status quo. On several occasions, it issued statements that did threaten the shattering of confidence. The latest is the statement on the PM’s visit to election-bound Arunachal Pradesh. In the interest of retaining mutual confidence, China should have avoided its belated statement.

But that does not justify the China-bashing campaign conducted by a certain section of the Indian media. During the last two-three months, certain sections of the media, both electronic and print, have attempted to create an anti-China hysteria. Cooked-up stories of border violations were flashed up. The campaign reached absurd levels. It was so ferocious that the government had to threaten the journalists indulging in it of legal action.

After the government’s threat the campaign subsided for a while. Now the statement of the Chinese foreign ministry on Arunachal Pradesh has provided a fresh weapon to these China baiters. There seems to be a certain lobby, most probably the arms manufacturers of the developed countries, who are interested in promoting hostilities between India and China.
This Communist is not condemning Chinese claims on Arunachal Pradesh, rather that the Chinese must have avoided the statement. He then goes on to devote a better part of his article on China-bashing in the media. He doesn't think nationalist and patriotic Indians would be genuinely angry at China; rather, he thinks it is all the American and Israeli Arms lobby. If Indian reaction is due to arms lobby, what is China's action due to ?
Suppiah
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2569
Joined: 03 Oct 2002 11:31
Location: -
Contact:

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Suppiah »

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 131628.cms

PRC ambassador meets Rajnath Singh..now the Stalinist rapist goons' propaganda yellow daily and its yellow journalist puppets can claim, as it did with RSS signing some memorandum with PRC that BJP has officially endorsed all of PRC's position, including its claims on AP etc., and that they are simply 'posturing'...

Is it a surprise that the mass murderers avoid commenting on China's statement or make meek remarks about 'should not have said it' etc.,...after all they dont want to be purged or be found dead in a ditch...
Arihant
BRFite
Posts: 199
Joined: 02 Aug 2009 05:17

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Arihant »

Some more potential points of leverage for India in the Taiwan issue. Northern Taiwan (i.e., places north of the central city of Taichung) is where Taiwan's pro-KMT, and pro-China constituency resides. It is also where most of the post-1949 Chinese arrivals (with Chiang Kai-Shek's army) settled. Southern Taiwan is where most of Taiwan's traditional elite come from (a lot of whom subsequently became part of the indigenous elite under Japanese colonial rule). This is the support base for pro-Independence political forces (e.g. the DPP and the TSU). China, in its infinite wisdom, has decided to take punitive action against the pro-Independence south by withholding its tourist dollars....
Official protest on China's moves against southern Taiwan
Arihant
BRFite
Posts: 199
Joined: 02 Aug 2009 05:17

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by Arihant »

D Roy wrote:It is not about being "nice". It is about being serious. And the way the Chinese are conducting themselves is anything but serious. And I don't think they can get away by lying forever. Nothing can. Moreover China itself is heavily influenced by Indian thought and culture. This is an undeniable fact and ithey won't be able to overturn this.
We should continue to hammer the established (researched) facts home to counter the bullshit being propounded by our enemies.
I think India is indeed being overly "nice" by not responding to this barrage of lies with some focused historical research of its own. Each and every one of these manufactured historical accounts needs to be demolished. It isn't enough to hope that these lies will eventually be shown up for what they are. If we don't counter these, who will?
tejas
BRFite
Posts: 768
Joined: 31 Mar 2008 04:47

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by tejas »

The disease of antinationalism seems to be a peculiar afflliction endemic only among Indian commies. Do you see Chinese communist party meetings held under pictures of Stalin?

Their bankrupt economic and antidevelopmental policies are bad enough. Their devotion to India's greatest enemy, China, should lead to banning of these oraganizations as legitimate political parties.
D Roy
BRFite
Posts: 1176
Joined: 08 Oct 2009 17:28

Re: India-China News and Discussions

Post by D Roy »

I think India is indeed being overly "nice" by not responding to this barrage of lies with some focused historical research of its own. Each and every one of these manufactured historical accounts needs to be demolished. It isn't enough to hope that these lies will eventually be shown up for what they are. If we don't counter these, who will?
My friend that's exactly what I am saying here.
We should continue to hammer the established (researched) facts home to counter the bullshit being propounded by our enemies.
Locked