Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

[JwalaMukhi]

Poverty perhaps has been made into a badge of honour because of two things - the historical ruination of the economy starting under the Islamics (every indication that the condition of the Indian commons drastically reduced in economic level after the advent of Islamic rule) - and the people had to learn to e happy with what they had - making a virtue out of necessity. The second reason could be a psychological defiance - a clear statement that "poverty" was consistent with the person's dharma, since according to his values - the way the rich obtained or maintained their wealth was "adharmic", and that the only way left for that person to clim out of "poverty" would be through a complete abandonment of what he considers his principles of life.

Bji, well said. Poverty is consequence, so is wealth. Most of the population accept the consequence, not because consequence is good, but because the reason that is driving the process to yield poverty is bad and beyond their control. The society has seen looters and looters who had gained upper hand have maintained structures that further enable looting. Hence, the structures that rewards adharmic ways have got entrenched. The fight against the consequence such as poverty or wealth, is treating the symptoms and not the root cause. The root cause is to establish dharmic ways in every aspect be it karma, artha, kama or moksha. Once that is established then it automatically allows the freedom one desires to either embrace wealth or poverty as bracketed under artha. Creation of structures and systems that allow honesty and dharma to prevail will address the consequence.
Else, poverty will be loved by all including the ones like charities who ostensibly think they are fighting poverty.

[shiv]

Not necessarily. Purushartha lists the four goals of humans as: Dharma, Artha, Kama and Moksha. Artha and Kama are the components that related to material well being & happiness. It is said that one needs to have artha and kama under the umbrella of Dharma. .

This is the theory. In fact the so called Indic core is not solution oriented . It is explanation oriented. You have to find the solutions yourself, and people end up finding solutions that are good for them, but may not be good for others. If 700 million find solutions for themselves at the expense of 300 million - that is not seen as an anomaly.

For the "average Indian" whose average life expectancy is 60 odd years and whose chance of education is around 50%, dharma is free and moksha is offered freely. Kama and artha are not so easy to get.

Now how does an Indian explain away this anomaly? He explains that the person who cannot get kama and artha is living out his karma. and by this convenient strawman of an explanation combined with a deep conviction in the unshakable truths of his own philosophy, the Indian discards any sense of responsibility to change the crap he sees around him while he concentrates on his personal need to gain moksha, having already enjoyed kama and artha.

The philosophy of the Indic core is intensely personal combined with rules that the "personal moksha' be delayed only by responsibility to guru and family. Nobody else needs to be helped other than random gathering of karmic points by helping a few beggars - who are by definition "needy". There is no rule that demands community work such as Sikhism demands. Sikhism is part of the Indic core but the "freedom" of the Indic core excuses most people from the rigor of Sikhism. People who subscribe to the Indian core welcome the greatness of Sikhism but do not really want to follow its tenets when it comes to community service. Lip service is a fundamental part of the Indic core.

[brihaspati]

because of an editing quirk - a chunk of my earlier post git cut out: please read this in full for consistency:

I am not that sure that pursuit of poverty is part of the core values of Bharat. There is littlle in the main philosophical strands of the Vedic and Vedanta that supports "poverty" as a goal or aim and also directly connected to "bad karma". The fundamental theme in the Vedic literature appears to be pursuit of all aspects of human life - dharma, artha, kama and moksha. Pursuit of artha is never decried and dismissed, same goes for "kama". Those who are painting the core as purely pursuit of "moksha" are either not being honest or being aware.

Moksha is the part that spans multiple lives, and goes beyond the present life. But moksha is not defined as the primary aim in life. Neither is the role of proper pursuit of dharma, artha and kama in this life set to be contradictory to pursuit of moksha. The karma theory when elaborated, will be seen to be affected by a sin-good-deed duality, that is subject to existing, local, customs and beliefs.

Dharma is a loose term now bandied around without having any idea perhaps about how it has been precisely defined or used. Confusion starts when dharma is not used as a framework to derive values appropriate to a given situation, people, time and place - but when the results of such applications by some group, at some point, place and time is taken to be "dharma" also.

The basic and most fundamental aim of moksha appears to be pursuit of "gnana" which is taken in the sense of "awareness", of self, and the connection between the self and non-self - that includes the universe. It is the latter connection that leads to concern not only about just this life but also about the longer term "life" of the less physically perishable component of "self" - the atman.

Here is my personal take on all that:

The supreme, core, aim in human life is pursuit of knowledge and "gnana". Everything else is geared to enhance this pursuit only. From this follows a clear cut evaluation of all the other "rules". To pursue this fundamental aim, one needs to be alive, and be full of health. Taken from this angle, equally important pursuit of "dharma", "artha" and "kama" becomes consistent and relevant.

"Kama" is connected to health, (the doctors here can vouch for its role in the health of adults as well as psychological benefits or necessities) as well as reproduction of the society's human resources. You need other humans to care for you when you are not yet physically strong enough, to keep you in health when you are sick, - in fact this pursuit of knowledge is both a personal as well as a social cooperative project. You need the society to cooperate for this pursuit.

It is this societal angle, and connected to personal sustenance which makes pursuit of "artha" necessary. Artha to be taken as economic surplus of the time period /technology/ and society concerned. Does not have to be identified with any particular form of economic organization. You need to contribute to economic surplus - so that you can sustain your own body, and hedge this sustenance by pitching into the common pool of societal surplus.

Finally comes "dharma" in my list. Dharma is a much abused and much casually interpreted term. Dharma again should be seen as the framework to produce values relevant to a given society at a given level of technology and economy and challenges such a society faces in their pursuit of primary target - gnana, and secondary supportive targets of kama and artha. Values that have been actually produced historically by some society using the fundamental framework that "dharma" implies - should not be confused with "dharma" itself.

Values should evaluate to secure the fundamental aim - pursuit of knowledge. Every rule/principle that helps this aim in the given socio-economic security situation, is "dharma". Every rule/principle/practice that detracts from or obstructs this fundamental aim - is "adharma".



From here it should be clear, what we can begin to accept, retain, or reject. The conflict about "poverty" should be immediately resolvable from this viewpoint. For poverty prevents pursuit of knowledge and awareness. On the other hand if we forget that "artha" is not a funadamental aim, but a subsidiary and supportive one, and we pursue it to the neglect of the fundamental aim, and all the other aspects of life that supports this aim, then we are deviating from "dharma". Here dharma is being used in the sense of rules/principles/that enhance or support the supreme aim of obtaining gnana.

Poverty perhaps has been made into a badge of honour because of two things - the historical ruination of the economy starting under the Islamics (every indication that the condition of the Indian commons drastically reduced in economic level after the advent of Islamic rule) - and the people had to learn to e happy with what they had - making a virtue out of necessity. The second reason could be a psychological defiance - a clear statement that "poverty" was consistent with the person's dharma, since according to his values - the way the rich obtained or maintained their wealth was "adharmic", and that the only way left for that person to clim out of "poverty" would be through a complete abandonment of what he considers his principles of life.

There are plenty of questions that I can myself raise against and seeking clarifications to what I have said here! Not raising them myself!

[shiv]

Else, poverty will be loved by all including the ones like charities who ostensibly think they are fighting poverty.

Jwalamukhi - "charities" need poverty to survive - like Mother Teresa needed poverty.

Unfortunately the Indic core also needs poverty. The Indic core does not seek to change, but it seeks to allow people to understand and accept what they get out of life. For the attainment of moksha, one may need to experience artha and kama yes, but one is also taught to renounce both kama and artha while seeking the goal of moksha.

Now the best method of discarding both kama and artha is to renounce everything and live the life of a mendicant who lives by alms alone. Living by alms alone is also a requirement of some religious duties - such as the current ongoing Sabarimalai yatra. It follows that a person who "lives by alms alone" must live the life of a beggar. For this reason, in India it is respectable to be a beggar and poverty is part of the scheme of things. And begging is an industry.

But when you look at hard statistics and the way to national wealth - no nation can afford to maintain a whole lot of freeloaders if that nation wants to be supremely efficient and productive. But the indic core encourages freeloaders. Do we stick to the Indic core or discard part of it?

[JE Menon]

Speaking of Mother Teresa, apparently Albania wants her back (BBC Ticker). I suppose they want her dead body back. Not sure why the are making the request now.

[JwalaMukhi]

Now the best method of discarding both kama and artha is to renounce everything and live the life of a mendicant who lives by alms alone. Living by alms alone is also a requirement of some religious duties - such as the current ongoing Sabarimalai yatra. It follows that a person who "lives by alms alone" must live the life of a beggar. For this reason, in India it is respectable to be a beggar and poverty is part of the scheme of things. And begging is an industry.

But when you look at hard statistics and the way to national wealth - no nation can afford to maintain a whole lot of freeloaders if that nation wants to be supremely efficient and productive. But the indic core encourages freeloaders. Do we stick to the Indic core or discard part of it?

The begging aspect is introduced to inculcate humility in the person undergoing penance and to highlight that it is a highly interdependent world. For all productiveness and a few tall personalities that tower, it shall be always be supported by large base of unsung heroes who are equally or in fact more important. The begging and living by alms is also practiced during "purtasi", while invoking Govinda. A large segment of the population well to do, also make rounds seeking alms.
This is like conditioning the psyche just as the recruits are conditioned during and after "commando" training. Many a times they are gradually eased into societial norms, it is not uncommon that commandos frequently disregard civic rules during that transition period.
Living by alms is similarly specific conditioning that is sought towards a specific goal. I'm unsure if beggary is made respectable, but for sure it is not shunned. It is considered as a part of life. Many a freeloaders take advantage of this acceptance. But, that again is not restricted only to beggars at lower scale, it is across the spectrum.

[brihaspati]

The extreme - prabrajya/mendicant stuff dependent totally on what others give as alms appears to be a post Vedic concept. The rishis, even if living in ashrams in the middle of the forests - do not seem to go begging. They own and tend to cows. The proliferation of "living by begging alone" seems to be coincidental with the rise of kingdoms under hereditary rulers. These guys probably concentrated too much wealth in their hands and the reaction against that socio-economic system was expressed through a rejection of "accummulation" of wealth - the basic idea behind "bhiksha" was "not to store for the future".

These are not part of the core. A philosophy that urges "everything in its proper time" and "all round development" for all aspects of life does not write in stone that you go freeloading on others. Then there was no need to urge preparation/education which includes economic activity training during brahmacharya, and then going into garhasthya, and be "productive" in all senses. Leaving "material" pursuits was only partly recognized during the retirement/banaprastha stage. Even here the ashrams are not beggars dens. Sanyas is urged only in the very last quarter of life - in a certain sense when life necessarily becomes dependent on more capable hands providing the nourishment.

The culture of "mendicantism" inherently puts a limit on number of mendicants. You need sufficient producers and non-beggars to produce the surplus that supports both reproduction of labour as well as the non-producing mendicants.

[JwalaMukhi]

Unfortunately the Indic core also needs poverty. The Indic core does not seek to change, but it seeks to allow people to understand and accept what they get out of life. For the attainment of moksha, one may need to experience artha and kama yes, but one is also taught to renounce both kama and artha while seeking the goal of moksha.

There are two ways to look at this. One is like: physicians depend on patients and hence they encourage people to be sick. The other is physicians are just forced to treat all the sickness that exists in the world. Physicians do not prescribe sickness, but may accept sickness as part of existence.
Indic core doesn't need poverty and definitely does not prescribe poverty as the means to salvation. Detachment, viragya are emphasized and are unconnected to poverty.

[JwalaMukhi]

Speaking of Mother Teresa, apparently Albania wants her back (BBC Ticker). I suppose they want her dead body back. Not sure why the are making the request now.

Vatican is the largest finely tuned and well equipped marketing machine. Often times, when the popularity is on the wane, then certain personalities are propped up for either beatification and/or canonization. This will unleash a fresh lease of life for the waning popularity and enhance the evangelism.

[shiv]

There are two ways to look at this. One is like: physicians depend on patients and hence they encourage people to be sick. The other is physicians are just forced to treat all the sickness that exists in the world. Physicians do not prescribe sickness, but may accept sickness as part of existence.

I don't know if you are a physician but this may be a better example that you imagined. In India physicians are respected but not paid well. For this reason increased sickness is to their advantage. In many Western nations physicians are paid so well that they genuinely seek reduction in ill health.

The Indic core promises karmic brownie points for the man who helps beggars, and so beggars are needed and beggary is good business. If the Indic core value of garnering karmic brownies by helping beggars could be discarded, beggary would not be good business in India.

[RayC]

Poverty and humility go hand in hand and is taken as a great virtue.

[Prem]

In Punjab , there is is say
"Majbboori ka naam , Mahatma Gandhi."

Shiv Ji,
Lip service stuff cannot be blamed on all > There are millions who are involved serving and many millions who are not and doing only lip service. To be frank, i have not known any one in my cricle who has ever refused charity or selfless work. Fourfold Path as explained by SwamiG still remain valid and let every individual strive for it and if Purshartha is an individual effort then it is upto the indvidual to make choices and create oppertunity. The so called 300 Million having no choice cannot be made burden on the ones who have made their own choices. Lets not have GOI standard system in wich every one is looking ,sitting idle and waiting for Sarkar to do something for them. IMHO, in every sphere of life, many perish without contributing or enjoying. We can feel sorry for them and sympathize but life cannot be put on suspension till the weaks catch up. Bring as many you can with you but rest is just destiny requiring uplifting work on Yuga time scale

[brihaspati]

I think we should remember, that poverty is not always by "choice". Opportunities can not only be given, but are people in a position to avail of those opportunities? We do hear that in the ancient gurukulas, all were enrolled irrespective of origins and trained in whatever all round eductaion was appropriate at that time. Thus the ultimate "vague origin" possible ("father unknown") did not prevent someone (Jabali) from availing of that training. Vishakha, a daughter of a "shresthi" was trained even in martial arts by a "malla" couple as gurus. Her mother is reputed as co-ed of Bimbisara and taught under the same guru in the gurukula.

For specific historical reasons, Indian education system broke down, economy was ruined and producers forced to abandon their land. This is a process that happened over many centuries under the Sultanate, then under the Mughals, and finally under the British.

There is a need to bring back everyone into that common educational, experiential, skill-base training and foundation. After that they should be given access to means of production. In the modern preiod this means access to capital. Only when after that someone fails to take that opportunity to produce, sustain himself, as well as contribute towards the societal "hedge fund" - that is when we can indulge in the luxurious glow of chastizing the "free loaders".

On the otherhand, there are many trained properly, who are taking advantage of the system - all those who dont pay their taxes, bribe or take bribes, use connections instead of compete on skillsbase, or take "cut-money" for favours - political, business, or otherwise. Are they exempt from the category of "freeloaders"? Aren't they also "freeloading" on the economy!

[Prem]

For the practical revival of Indian "kaur"/Core , Desi society has to adopt many teachings of Sikh Gurus who revived many ancient sanatani social and spiritual values . There is very thin boundary to be crossed and a smal step in this direction will go long way. Luckily , it is happening , though at slow speed.

[SwamyG]

Instead of putting it solution vs explanation oriented, I would put it as personal experience oriented. In any system one has to pay one's dues - be it karma or anything else. Nothing is free, dharma or moksha. It is precisely because karma that one is encouraged to lead a better life. One does not discard the responsibility, but one works better to earn better karma. Only certain sanyasis are in the path that values poverty among other things. For the normal people poverty is not prescribed under normal conditions.

[SwamyG]

Here is what Tiruvalluvar said on begging:
Source: http://www.jnanadana.com/DailyTirukurals/107.html

Chapter 107: Dread of Begging
Kural 1061

It is ten million times better not to beg, even from those
precious men whose joy is giving and who thus never refuse.

Kural 1062

Were it the World-Creator's wish for men to live by begging,
men might wish that He, too, die a wandering beggar.

Kural 1063

There is no greater foolhardiness than to say,
"I shall end the pains of poverty by begging."

Kural 1064

This entire world is too small to contain the dignity of men
who will not stoop to beg, even in the direst destitution.

Kural 1065

Though it is only gruel, thin as water, nothing is more savory
than food that is earned by the labor of one's own hands.

Kural 1066

The tongue finds nothing more distasteful than begging,
even just to beg drinking water for a cow.

Kural 1067

This I beg of all beggars:
"If you must beg, beg not from misers."

Kural 1068

The unsturdy ship called begging will break apart
the moment it crashes against the rock of refusal.

Kural 1069

Thoughts of a beggar's plight melt the heart.
Thoughts of refusals he receives crush it completely.

Kural 1070

Having said "no" to a beggar, knowing it might kill the poor man,
where is a miser going to hide from his word?

[Neshant]

Though it is only gruel, thin as water, nothing is more savory
than food that is earned by the labor of one's own hands.

lets leave behind all this moral stuff which has only left India as a beggar for years on end while the goldman sachs types continue to scam the world.

i wish i was a goldman sachs ceo making millions in bonuses off taxpayers for simply having a pulse. I assure you the food would taste even more savory than having to work for it.

[SwamyG]

Morals did not leave India as a beggar; internal and external exploitation plus corruption has left its mark.

[shiv]

Lip service stuff cannot be blamed on all > There are millions who are involved serving and many millions who are not and doing only lip service. To be frank, i have not known any one in my circle who has ever refused charity or selfless work.

Prem what you say is not wrong but I believe you are overestimating the number and influence of the people you are talking about.

Let me give you an example that I see nearly every day. There is a 160 second wait at a traffic intersection near where I live. That intersection is "controlled" by a group of beggars (the same bunch of 2-3) who appear at different times. I watch while I wait and find that the beggar on duty goes to about 10 or 15 vehicles in the 160 seconds he has. He generally scores and gets coins from about 3 or 4 people. In India it is difficult to get even 50p coins. Most are Rs 1 or 2. I estimate that the beggar gets about Rs 5 in those 160 seconds.

The net result is that - with a traffic cycle of about 4 minutes the beggar makes Rs 3-5 about 10 to 15 times an hour. That is a cool Rs 75 an hour or about Rs 500 in a "days work" of 6-7 hours Rs 15,000 a month). beggars earn more than a driver who gets Rs 7-8000, and a teacher earning Rs 3-5000 a month

And look at what the guys who pay must be thinking. Some of them pay coins to get rid of the irritating beggar. Others pay because they feel they are helping a "poor" person.

The so called 300 Million having no choice cannot be made burden on the ones who have made their own choices.

Prem the 300 million are pulling India down. Something has to be done.

[Rahul Mehta]

... In fact the so called Indic core is not solution oriented . It is explanation oriented.

Amen ..... In that case BR is 100% compatible with Indic Core. Well, lets make it "99% Indic" as, there are some non-Indic Maculayputra like myself who insist that discussion should be focused on procedural solutions only and have utter disregard for explanations aka gyaan.

--------

... In fact the so called Indic core is not solution oriented . It is explanation oriented.

So what solution do you propose to this problem?

-----------

Let me give you an example that I see nearly every day. There is a 160 second wait at a traffic intersection near where I live. That intersection is "controlled" by a group of beggars (the same bunch of 2-3) who appear at different times. I watch while I wait and find that the beggar on duty goes to about 10 or 15 vehicles in the 160 seconds he has. He generally scores and gets coins from about 3 or 4 people. In India it is difficult to get even 50p coins. Most are Rs 1 or 2. I estimate that the beggar gets about Rs 5 in those 160 seconds. The net result is that - with a traffic cycle of about 4 minutes the beggar makes Rs 3-5 about 10 to 15 times an hour. That is a cool Rs 75 an hour or about Rs 500 in a "days work" of 6-7 hours Rs 15,000 a month). beggars earn more than a driver who gets Rs 7-8000, and a teacher earning Rs 3-5000 a month

If gross income is Rs 15000/mo, then CM/IPS will appoint criminals to collect hafta from beggars. And then from Rs 15000 beggars make, the criminals will take away Rs 10000 of which Rs 5000 will go to the CM/IPS. So the beggars, in general, will never net more than Rs 5000/mo, no matter what their gross income is.

... the 300 million are pulling India down. Something has to be done.

Well, "India" is keeping these 300 million down, or may many more than 300 million. These people are not keeping India down. As per doing something about them, ALL of us *are* doing something to so that incomes of poor would increase and poverty will decrease. What more should we do?

[svinayak]

... In fact the so called Indic core is not solution oriented . It is explanation oriented.
So what solution do you propose to this problem?

RM , Please take the discussion to the good governance thread.

[shiv]

Well, "India" is keeping these 300 million down, or may many more than 300 million. These people are not keeping India down. As per doing something about them, ALL of us *are* doing something to so that incomes of poor would increase and poverty will decrease. What more should we do?

Er Rahulji - I am tempted to say jurysys because that is the only way to avoid a cirular discussion with with you, but we are talking about "national power" not "notional power". By charity we are certainly "lifting people out of poverty" but we are not making them productive citizens who will increase the GDP

OK you ask what is my solution.

I will only post a solution that is compatible with the thread subject. I suggest getting rid of Indic core concepts that contribute to India's staying down as a great power. In this case we must remove this blind need to give to beggars. Will say more on this a bit later.

[shiv]

Here is what Tiruvalluvar said on begging:
Source: http://www.jnanadana.com/DailyTirukurals/107.html

And the people of Karnataka put up a solid fight against the installation of Tiruvallluvar's statue in Bangalore .... We have a nice statue of Queen Victoria though. OT

After noticing the begging scams at traffic intersections I decided that I was right in not giving to beggars, but decided to do an experiment, in case I was wrong.

I decided that I should select beggars. Now around October-November every year the streets of Bangalore fill up with people with black clothes begging for alms to go to Sabarimalai. They are not professional beggars but tradition demands that prospective Sabarimalai pilgrims must not shave, must not wear any footwear, must have no vices, no women and must beg to pay their way to Sabarimalai.

When one such Sabarimalai beggar approached me I punched the window open button and pulled out a few notes from my pocket and placed a Rs 10 note in his plate. For some stupid reason I was under the impression that this Sabarimalai beggar was made of better stuff than the ordinary beggar and that he would gratefully take what he was given and move on. But the idiot saw that I also had a Rs 50 note and demanded that I place the Rs 50 note on his plate. I gave the guy a verbal lashing and have reverted to my usual tactic of never paying a single beggar.

[RayC]

If indeed India still has the intrinsic moral ‘strength’ as is being stated, then it is comforting a thought. Yet, I wonder if that strength is the same as the ancient times. It has diluted immensely if one sees contemporary India, one finds it difficult to believe that it survives.

One wonders if to justify the dilution one could tangentially deflect to the internal and external exploitation because even if that is true, the intrinsic strength that is being portrayed should have been able to resist such exploitation. And if it has not been able to withstand the onslaught, it was not strong enough in the first place! Maybe a make belief, which we Indians are addicted to impress on others of our high moral values and beliefs!!

Societies evolve with the pressures of contemporary times. It cannot stay static. It is human nature where negatives attract and influences the body and soul. To believe, they don’t, it suggests an unrealistic, overindulgent credence to piety.

Indeed, there are many who are doing service for societal upliftment. Even NGOs who are paid are for it. Yet, how many are selfless is what is important and what are these selfless people doing and what is their percentage of the Indian population? And what is 'selfless'? Each will have his or her own perception.

Selfless service cannot be flashes in the pan. They must be sustained. How many Indians are doing it? Indulging in charity once in a while is not selfless service, and instead is salving the conscience, which too is laudable. Fashion-plates also indulge in it occasionally for publicity and relevance. I have seen fashionable society women doing service in their fineries in slums, running workshops! That is also service. But a greater service would be to clean the garbage that is affecting the health and hygiene. It is a dirty job I agree that many selfless people would give the go by; and at the same time, I also concede that one man’s idea of selfless service is not the same for the other.

Maheshwri Devi and Aparna Sen were doing selfless service for the 'downtrodden' in Lalgarh. Laudable. How come they are so silent, now that the Govt of WB has started rounding up Maoist sympathisers? Selfless service is many case is geared for self grandiloquent aims! Can one say they were doing doing selfless service for Lalgarh. If they are committed, then they should continue their work without worry about jail and a judicial sentence!

All these posts of Indic and ancient Core values gives me a soothing feeling, but when I step out of the threshold of my house, the reality strikes me and all the wonderful high thinking high morality words here on the forum just vanishes in a cloud of dust!

Without malice, I feel we are not Argumentative Indians, but we Pontificating Indians!

[JE Menon]

RM, pls take Acharya's sound advise on the subject. Don't start with Jurysys here, cause I'll start saying that nothing will work until everyone takes a good crap in the morning, not even jurysys.

[RayC]

Too much!

[JwalaMukhi]

How many actual indulge in begging because begging is better bet than working? If it is small percentage, there is always going to be freeloaders at every end of the spectrum. Begging is making unproductive citizens, but let's look at a modernized society of how the emphasis on productivity is stretched. Just something to think about. Is the below example making the particular individual productive and hence society? How would begging compare to this productiveness?
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2005/jan/05013106.html

News agencies around the world are carrying the story of a young German woman, a qualified information technologist, who has been told that she faces suspension of her government relief benefits if she refuses to take a ‘job’ as a prostitute in a Berlin brothel.

German law no longer considers prostitution, or as it is called, the ‘sex trade,’ to be immoral or inherently undesirable. Legalised German brothels are starting to avail themselves of national listings of unemployed women to ‘hire’ to perform sexual services. Under German law, any woman under 55 who has been out of work for more than a year can be forced to take an available job or lose her unemployment benefit.

“There is now nothing in the law to stop women from being sent into the sex industry," Merchthild Garweg, a lawyer from Hamburg who specialises in such cases, said. He added, “The new regulations say that working in the sex industry is not immoral any more, and so jobs cannot be turned down without a risk to benefits.”

[JwalaMukhi]

As non-Indic western nation was being compared; thought would also post an anecdote. Cities such as Montreal, Ottawa etc., also hosts beggars. There was this young beggar, who was making phone calls on his cell phone, while having a sign board and a cap on the footpath in Montreal, and refused a dollar from passersby as he was looking for 10 dollars or more as contribution to his begging cap. There were series of them too.
In some of the rough parts in US, typically in downtown areas, the begging will border on intimidation. One is unsure, if the begging is begging or it is a demand as dignified robbery. Sometimes, the begging would be for all of your wallet not just higher denomination bills.

[brihaspati]

The German legal loophole about prostitution is a lesson in what a completely stretchable and everything goes "morality" leads up to. This is not something also unknown for India. There was a system of the social collective gathering together to select a girl whom they fancied to become a "janapada-badhu". The most famous cases known are probably that of Amrapali and Jitasoma. Even the Arthasastra has laws that recommend the compulsory enslavement or enforced prostitution of women for certain infractions of custom or law - typically of a sexual or marital nature.

Democracy, as practised in the republican systems of India, or even now in a modern Germany - cannot guarantee that individuals will not be exploited by powerful coalitions of numerically superior groups. This is the reason questions of morality or values come in which need not be based on popular acceptance or just what a regime claims. Moral values are there to create a buffer between the individual and the collective, so that neither can destroy the other.

Begging was made noble because some from "nobility" chose to adopt that as a symbol of solidarity with the commons - rejecting the conspicuous consumption of the elite as immoral. They thus made it fashionale and acceptable. The role of elite as trend setters and imitable idols is undeniable. Begging for mere livelihood should be severely discouraged. But we cannot do this if we cannot give alternatives. This in turn should be based on developing capabilities and the basic material input needed for them to become productive - but not the largesse, relief and benefit culture.

[shiv]

. Begging is making unproductive citizens, but let's look at a modernized society of how the emphasis on productivity is stretched.

Good example Jwalamukhi. You have picked up a fundamental difference between the Indic ethos and the efficient "productive citizen" paradigm of the West.

But if we do not aim at making every citizen productive to help himself and help the nation - India is never going to "make it" in the same way that the leaders of the current world - "The west" have made it. Our rise, if it occurs will be something completely different and it is totally pointless to try and copy-paste Western methods on to India.

The point I want to make is that for every "good example of progress" we take from the West - we have to discard some part of the original Indic values because they are fundamentally different. This has already happened - but it has happened in a unique way.

In very few instances has the Western method been copy pasted wholly and exactly like perhaps Singapore has done. The Western method is usually bent and moulded to suit the Indic core because the Indic core does not go away that easily. Let me quote examples to make it clear. For example the West says "Work hard for 5 or 6 days a week and take one day or two days off". The Indic core says "Work needs to be done every day - how can you take whole days off, but when you need to take time off you just take time off"

These attitudes reflect in the work ethic of the Indic. The Gujarati corner shop owner in the UK came to the rescue of a British populations whose shops would shut at 5 PM Saturday (that has cahnged now though). The Gujju would keep his shop open till 9 PM all days including Sunday. On the other hand - the pavement outside my house has been dug up for work on drains. The pavement remains dug up for over a a month because all the workers vanished for a week for Dasara and have now vanished for a further week for Diwali. They also vanished in between for a week because of heavy rains in their native towns.

This is the Indic way of doing things and copy pasting a Western style does not work. This style of working leads to slippages in delivery schedules and makes nations like Singapore, Malaysia and China get business rather than India.

When it comes to the economy in a Western efficiency ruled world - the laid back Indic way does not stand a chance. Either the Indic way changes or we remain hamstrung and let karma change our fortune so India can change the world to a less efficient, more relaxed world

[SwamyG]

And the people of Karnataka put up a solid fight against the installation of Tiruvallluvar's statue in Bangalore .... We have a nice statue of Queen Victoria though. OT

I was in Bengaluru at the time of protests. We had reached Mysore; and then my brother-in-law calls us on our mobiles, reporting possible break outs of violence in Mandya. We were really worried. We spent the entire trip speaking in Hindi, Telugu & English But it is not the people of Karnataka; it is the politicians who were causing this issue. I am not willing to attribute the wrong actions of politicians and rowdies on to the people of Karnataka.

My father had a policy of never giving to beggars; he gave only to physically handicapped people - who he thought could not find work.

The "beggarism" is a big industry. I suspect many of the so-called Sabarimalai pilgrims are not real; it is just con artists dressed up and fooling the gullible.

[SwamyG]

Either the Indic way changes or we remain hamstrung and let karma change our fortune so India can change the world to a less efficient, more relaxed world

Won't that be really something!!! Alas it means the Indic ways are pitted against the mighty Corporations of the West, not the governments of the West.

[shiv]

Either the Indic way changes or we remain hamstrung and let karma change our fortune so India can change the world to a less efficient, more relaxed world

Won't that be really something!!! Alas it means the Indic ways are pitted against the mighty Corporations of the West, not the governments of the West.

SwamyG, the corporations ARE the West. You remove them and the West is finished. It stared with the East India Company. And recall what someone said" McDonald's would be nowhere without the power of McDonnell(-Douglas) behind it"

[SwamyG]

I agree totally. Rushkoff says in his book the citizens have been converted into Consumers. He elaborates how the Nobility created Corporations so that they continue to be in the limelight. The merchants were getting wealthier than the Kings; and the society was almost running away leaving the Monarchy far behind. The link between the Rulers and the Rich were institutionalized then. The British modified their laws that eventually enabled East India Company to make treaties with Indian Kings, own private army and wage wars.

[SBajwa]

Guru Nanak dev in his times (1469 - 1539) says this

"Uttam Khaeti, Madham Vyapaar, Nakhid chaakri, Bheekh Nakaar"
i.e.
"The best profession is Farming, Second is Businees, Working for somebody(Chaakri or Naukari) is OK but Begging is a NO-NO"

Once upon a time begging in India was considered worse than death. It was better to be dead than becoming a begger.
What happened to those ethics? I blame British Education and Bollywood culture that has molded the current ethos.
The work ethic is just not there.

I know an unemployed person from India who pestered his innocent father to sell some of his land so that he can immigrate to USA. But after he found out the toughness of the work here (24*7, etc), he realized how easy was his life in India, where he practically got 4-5 servants and womenfolk of the household feeding him, washing his laundry, and helping out in basic stuff. It is very tough for an average indian upper middle class person to settle here in USA due to their altered work ethics of not even doing their own work. This story is true for so many Indian people including myself.

Just my next door neighbourer does this on an average weekend (apart from 8-6 job on weekdays).

1. Mow the lawn.
2. Wash/clean both his and his wife's car.
3. Take his children to their various sporting events/movies/etc.
4. Fix any of the house stuff (painting, plumbing, electricity work, computer work, etc).
5. and then if there is time indulge in a hobby of carpenting.

and this is the story of majority of the americans.

[brihaspati]

^^^that means he has a (1) lawn. (2) two cars. (3) means to afford the accessories for sporting events .(4) has a house and the means to pay for DIY material (5) tools and means to do carpenting.

If you go to basic producers in India with some means of production, you will see a very similar picture in the weekend. Fishing villages typically will have people reparing their nets, and doing all sorts of work around the house. Some even will go and practise music with the village band.

The problem is with those who do not have the basic means of production - and it is the same with people in USA as in India. There are people who are homeless in USA and they literally own nothing - sheltering in abandoned tunnels sometimes. Some beg, not all. Same goes for many people without the means of producing in India.

[SBajwa]

If you go to basic producers in India with some means of production, you will see a very similar picture in the weekend.

That's true. But let me try again. In 1978, my Paternal grandfather (who had 7 sons) would get all his sons together into his village even for such trivial things like below (eventhough he could hire people) and insist that they all work together physically with their hands and do the job. (and it was very similar with my maternal grandfather who could own cars but biked to the village everyday)

1. Time to Harvest (my father had to take time off from his central government job to help with harvest).
2. Dig up a well or handpump.
3. etc.

But these days even in villages (north India) of Punjab and Haryana the land owners do not do their own work., they have Biharis, UPites, Nepalis, etc doing for them. Women in 60s-70s would get up early in the morning- churn butter- Charkha- etc. but not any more., it is late night TV serials and 10:0 AM Breakfast cooked by Biharis. Work ethic is not as same as the generation that is goneby. I hope that it is different in other areas of India.

[brihaspati]

I do feel bad and deeply hurt that we are bracketing all people forced to depend on others mercy into beggars. If the karma theory is true, then it will be added on to my karma that there were several old ladies whom I could not help in time. By the time I had made the arrangements, they were "gone". I will just give one story.

Let us assume the ladies name starts with L. L was about 60 years old when I first met her selling leaf-veg at a local street market. She was very frail and looked quite ill. Her meagre merchandise was being kicked off by the valiant peace-keepers of the street market in the name of the market-association, for she had been unable to pay the demanded fee (which I knew was being raised in the name of a labour union).

I prevented her eviction and bought off her pitiful collection of herbs and leaves. On my gentle teasing, she literally broke down crying. Her story was typical. Her husband had abandoned her and gone away with another woman. She had a son, whom she raised by working as a maid and doing odd jobs or gathering stuff from the fields like herbs etc to sell. But because she had to stay away from the house, the boy's education or training suffered. He did not gain any skills either. But he did marry. And it was the mother who gave up her meagre savings for the marriage. But then afterwards she had been kicked out from the main house by his son and DIL, because the son claimed that he could not support her. The lady then began to go back to the fields to collect herbs and sell. She used to get up before sunrise to collect, and then came by the local train to sell stuff and only went back by the very last train, because she could not fight and gain a foothold in the crowded rush hour. Twice in the previous 3 months, she had fallen off in the mad rush and hurt herself badly.

She would not have a meal if she could not sell at least 30-40 Rs. gross. Even then the meal would consist of one quarter bread and half glass milk tea. She persistently refused money from me - so I used to buy whatever she brought. I sent one of my close associates to verify her story and it was confirmed. I arranged for a place for her in a place I supported and helped organize where she would be looked after. I wanted to give her a surprise and waited for the Diwali to go to her and offer the arrangement together with a set of new clothes (her garment was in tatters and one could see how she sewed again and again the same cloth to keep it wear-able). When I reached her place, I was told she had passed away suddenly of "old-age".

I was unable to write this now without a break, because my eyes keep getting covered with tears I am unable to suppress. Every Diwali since that age of 18, I beg forgiveness from her, for I failed a person who should have been treated both as a mother and as a daughter.

This is a true story. Please keep this image in mind when the next time the culture of begging comes up for bashing.

[RayC]

brihaspati,

Your narration is so true and yet common place in India. It has no class barriers.

Women, because of the so called 'Core' values are 'trained' to worship their worthless husbands and take a whole lot of nonsense.

Girls, harassed by the in laws, come back home and are persuaded by her parents to return since divorce is a social taboo and a loss of face amongst relatives and friends. Or because, the girl must understand what is pati parmeshwar.

This is what I find ridiculous of 'Core' values and the ingrained ethos to live in the past 'ways' of what is the 'Indic' philosophy enshrined in the mythology. Sita, comes to mind, who was forsaken.

I am no scientist, I am no rationalist, but I am a realist. I don't dream of the glorious past. I take lessons from the glorious past and try to adjust that glorious past into the present.

That is why I find all the good things said here of our past so soothing and yet immensely unreal to contemporary times. We wallow in it with great pleasure and aplomb including expanding on it in a masochist manner and yet most do fanny adams about it, apart from pontificating in well appointed drawing rooms. Some do execute singular salutary effort now and then, but that is not sustained as a matter of routine. It makes one wonder what has gone wrong with the world and why are we so impotent not to return to those ideals when it is at the back of our mind and we poodlefake except when pontificating from the Mount! (This is a general comment and not for any particular post, including yours). Your narration brings flood of memories of my success and immense failures in this field! There are so many such sad cases that it makes the heart weep!

[brihaspati]

RayC,
I agree with you in the case of women. But I still feel class matters. Upper class in a region with acceptance of education and economic skills for girls have a chance in the sense that the girl could try to become self-reliant and also be more aware of her "rights" and how to utilize the system to a certain extent.

The women I was referring to will have hardly any skills or education given to them, and neither the share of family resources to start some venture on their own. I have many such cases in mind. I do almost breakdown everytime I remember them -as if each such woman was both a mother and a daughter to me. I do wonder (and one of the reasons I opted out of "red"s was because I found it to be "heartless"), that if we do not identify with the sorrows and sufferings of our millions of commons - who have not been given the opportunities or excuses to be productive, the training and the access to the capital that such training could use, without that heart that feels each injustice and unfairness meted out to them as our own, where can we advance?

Strangely, I do not see the core of values as I understand them to be in the Upanishads, to be contrary to this oneness of feeling with all suffering, "amritasya putraa". But I feel that oneness of feeling is the first step towards what we want our nation to be and become.