Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 19 Oct 2009 00:07

brihaspati wrote:RayC,
I agree with you in the case of women. But I still feel class matters. Upper class in a region with acceptance of education and economic skills for girls have a chance in the sense that the girl could try to become self-reliant and also be more aware of her "rights" and how to utilize the system to a certain extent.

There are enough examples of what could be termed as 'higher middle class' girls who are facing the problem, even though they also earn. And many are doing so, I will concede for their children's happiness too! I have observed such cases in close proximity. The families are steeped in social values and idea of social acceptability of the past, based on good old 'Core' values!

The women I was referring to will have hardly any skills or education given to them, and neither the share of family resources to start some venture on their own. I have many such cases in mind. I do almost breakdown every-time I remember them -as if each such woman was both a mother and a daughter to me. I do wonder (and one of the reasons I opted out of "red"s was because I found it to be "heartless"), that if we do not identify with the sorrows and sufferings of our millions of commons - who have not been given the opportunities or excuses to be productive, the training and the access to the capital that such training could use, without that heart that feels each injustice and unfairness meted out to them as our own, where can we advance?

In my travels around India in pursuit of my career, I have had maid servants who had been abandoned by their husbands or they abandoned their drunken wasters of husbands. Though they were unskilled in the modern way, they were tough and had no inhibitions or courage to take life as it came. I salute them! My wife, the kind soul, helped them in whatever way she could - she is a freelance social worker.

I found that the women of what we could term economically lower echelons of society greater signatures for a tough and stoic India. They were more wedded to the 'Core' values that are stated on this forum and were tough as nails to face life in spite of all the hardships and indignities heaped on them by society.

Strangely, I do not see the core of values as I understand them to be in the Upanishads, to be contrary to this oneness of feeling with all suffering, "amritasya putraa". But I feel that oneness of feeling is the first step towards what we want our nation to be and become.

The scriptures of any religion is ambidextrous, skilful and versatile!

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 19 Oct 2009 00:28

Brihaspati,

Explain this case:

http://www.indiankanoon.org/doc/956764/?type=pdf

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 19 Oct 2009 02:41

RayC wrote The scriptures of any religion is ambidextrous, skilful and versatile!

Why does that remind me of being a good description of a battlefield weapon! Or that of a modern soldier! If it is so, why not use "our" religion too, for that purpose?

Regarding the Surupa case, not much for me to say! The judges appear to have said enough for all of us to keep shut. (Are you sure that we should not invite RM to comment?) You must be aware of the background of the chief protagonists in that case. The connection between the hubby and other illustrious icons of celebrity world was well speculated on. But as an illustration, would you consider the "family" really, (and the hubby especially) to be subscribing to "core" values? One of his teeange-time buddy ran a womens' magazine. Some of the article headlines from that buddy, advertized in a well known publications group actually recommended/supported that one could feel attracted to and pair up with different types of sexual partners at different ages and therefore change as and when "felt". Not a universally accepted part of the core values of any Bharatyia strand I can think of! Even the founder of the publication group referred to can be explored. Going into more details would be dangerous.

But I am sure you would understand. You could also have brought up another similar case connected with a descendant of a notorious Diwan of the British. The girl concerned I think came from across "class+faith" barrier.

Your ancestral relative once is supposed to have first denied knowing about a "cinema/theatre hall" location when asked by a group of youngsters, and walked away. Then he is supposed to have returned and told them, that he "knows", but "he will not tell them" because he considered those places as of "ill repute" and not fit for developing good character. He returned because he felt, "lying" would be contrary to his "core" values. But his son, is supposed to have married a famous actress on a dare with his friends, and then afterwards also promptly separated/divorced - just to prove the point. So his core values were drastically different! or were they?

I do thank my line for having kept away from the "circle" and disconnected itself virtually. The more I heard of the "lineage connections", the more repulsive it was for me. I have a great distrust and scepticism about "blue blood". There are exceptional individuals, no doubt. But it just shows too much of deviation from values in general.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 19 Oct 2009 02:46

brihaspati wrote:
RayC wrote The scriptures of any religion is ambidextrous, skilful and versatile!
Why does that remind me of being a good description of a battlefield weapon! Or that of a modern soldier! If it is so, why not use "our" religion too, for that purpose?

Regarding the Surupa case, not much for me to say! The judges appear to have said enough for all of us to keep shut. (Are you sure that we should not invite RM to comment?) You must be aware of the background of the chief protagonists in that case. The connection between the hubby and other illustrious icons of celebrity world was well speculated on. But as an illustration, would you consider the "family" really, (and the hubby especially) to be subscribing to "core" values? One of his teeange-time buddy ran a womens' magazine. Some of the article headlines from that buddy, advertized in a well known publications group actually recommended/supported that one could feel attracted to and pair up with different types of sexual partners at different ages and therefore change as and when "felt". Not a universally accepted part of the core values of any Bharatyia strand I can think of! Even the founder of the publication group referred to can be explored. Going into more details would be dangerous. But I am sure you would understand. You could also have brought up another similar case connected with a descendant of a notorious Diwan of the British. The girl concerned I think came from across "class+faith" barrier.

Your ancestral relative once is supposed to have first denied knowing about a "cinema/theatre hall" location when asked by a group of youngsters, and walked away. Then he is supposed to have returned and told them, that he "knows", but "he will not tell them" because he considered those places as of "ill repute" and not fit for developing good character. He returned because he felt, "lying" would be contrary to his "core" values. But his son, is supposed to have married a famous actress on a dare with his friends, and then afterwards also promptly separated/divorced - just to prove the point. So his core values were drastically different! or were they?

I do thank my line for having kept away from the "circle" and disconnected itself virtually. The more I heard of the "lineage connections", the more repulsive it was for me. I have a great distrust and scepticism about "blue blood". There are exceptional individuals, no doubt. But it just shows too much of deviation from values in general.

That is why I find 'core values' oddball.

Opportunism and keeping with the times!

My ancestor also is claimed that he called the Train Conductor to say that his child travelling on half ticket was now older since the clock registered he had become an 'adult' and so the ticket had to be changed from that hour!!

Core values maybe, but good for anecdotes!

I however have a different take on lineage.

Because of lineage, one cannot be practical and instead live up to the 'Core values', miserable that they may be!! (It is a loaded statement with all the ramifications!)

But I am sure you would understand. You could also have brought up another similar case connected with a descendant of a notorious Diwan of the British. The girl concerned I think came from across "class+faith" barrier.

Not understood!

Yes, not only Rajas and Dewans are connected, but which one?

Mine is a family that has transcended caste, creed and nationality!

You spoke of Bangladeshis having Sanskrit name. I have a relation who is Haji Abdul some thing there after and some thing more and then the last is Sengupta!!

If that is not weird, what is?

And that chap is a strict Islamic Joe!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 19 Oct 2009 02:57

core values are not bogus - for they are followed by millions of Indians, but not of traditional "blue blood" or elite extraction. I have seen this in the miserable tenements and shelters of the common, non-rich Indian. So I identify with them and share their basic principles. Not with the class of my origins. These are a small fraction of the total society - who were not uniformly bad or deviants, but for one upholder of values - there were perhaps ten in every generation of no-gooders. They were detached from their roots, their culture, their base isn the spirit of the commons - by their "elitism" - and that was the source of their deviation. Identifying with the common Bharatyia is perhaps like a resetting of the deviation clock, an error correction mechanism.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 19 Oct 2009 03:01

brihaspati wrote:core values are not bogus - for they are followed by millions of Indians, but not of traditional "blue blood" or elite extraction. I have seen this in the miserable tenements and shelters of the common, non-rich Indian. So I identify with them and share their basic principles. Not with the class of my origins. These are a small fraction of the total society - who were not uniformly bad or deviants, but for one upholder of values - there were perhaps ten in every generation of no-gooders. They were detached from their roots, their culture, their base isn the spirit of the commons - by their "elitism" - and that was the source of their deviation. Identifying with the common Bharatyia is perhaps like a resetting of the deviation clock, an error correction mechanism.

No; diluted core values!

Nothing is perfect!

Outwardly we all project a great image, inwardly it is different.

With the way things are going, it is not Bharatiya and such becutiful thoughts which is on the mind. What is on the mind is survival and it spans class and economic barriers!

With the price of onions and potatoes that are there today, who can think of such high ideal of Bharatiya and things like that?

Being a Bharatiaya does not fill my family's stomach!

And as the breadwinner of the family that is my first concern!

Rich people like you have the privilege and hobby to think philosophically since you ancestral money or your own can carry the day!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 19 Oct 2009 03:10

RayC,
the "understood" was w.r.t. the founder of the publishing house. He basically expanded on a well-known press and group of another. How this takeover was funded, is the main story. I thought that you will know once you identify the publisher. But these cannot be elaborated on open forum.

The other ref was to the "Lions" based in Calcutta. The founder is anecdotally reputed to have filled up a pond with mustard oil on the occasion of his mothers funeral rites.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 19 Oct 2009 03:13

brihaspati wrote:RayC,
the "understood" was w.r.t. the founder of the publishing house. He basically expanded on a well-known press and group of another. How this takeover was funded, is the main story. I thought that you will know once you identify the publisher. But these cannot be elaborated on open forum. The other ref was to the "Lions" based in Calcutta. The founder is anecdotally reputed to have filled up a pond with mustard oil on the occasion of his mothers funeral rites.

I have no idea of this.

Sure would like to know.

My maternal family history is by word of mouth and snatches of time like I came to know of DL Roy when we visited with my mother his ashram in Pune when I was in the NDA as a Bn Cdr.

My paternal family history is recorded but in Sanskritised Bengali and so it is out of my realm! Beveridge however gives some glimpses!

That is but life!

But then, who cares?

I am what I am!

My contribution is what matters and though it cannot compare with them, hopefully I have contributed!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 19 Oct 2009 03:29

RayC wrote
Rich people like you have the privilege and hobby to think philosophically since you ancestral money or your own can carry the day!

Both my parents voluntarily reliquished all claims to ancestral property, titles and wealth. They struggled a lot initially. I was not brought up as a rich kid. I travelled to the school by ordinary bus. I was not indulged in anything other than wholesome food, and books. Even a TV was not ought until I graduated. Moreover, I earned my keep from the age of 12 through various scholarships and stipends awarded. I did not have any tutors, and my parents did not have to pay for my education from the age of 12. Whatever I have now, I earned myself. I have given even my parents savings to fund scholarships etc. Only books and memorabilia I have retained.

I have every right to speak of values because I am entirely self-sustained, and I have earned whatever I have spent and through overground and legal means.

Further, the more details you give of your lineage, the greater is my "scare" of being "outed" inadvertently. So can we make a pact of not letting those tantalizing drops about "family" coming out? and as per Bharatyia "values" please forgive my comments earlier if they have been hurtful since they would be inappropriate coming from my end towards you.

Will not extend this discussion anymore. Regards.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 19 Oct 2009 03:51

brihaspati,

Like you I have inherited nothing. No titles, land or anything.

My parents left me nothing, not that they had much.

I have sustained myself on my pay.

Therefore, I am a self made man.

I gave nothing to my parents. My brother did. A good scholar who gave his national scholarship money to my parents, even though they did not really require it.

They are dead (my parents) and we fight for the property they left - not to acquire it but to state that it the others i.e. the brother, he! Real core values and not just talk!

Hence, I care not for all this 'core' values except as a guide.

When you struggle for existence, you do not forsake your core values, and when you see that these values are going up in smoke, your lineage prohibit you from following suit the best you can and then you only wonder how these values are so worthless but for pontification.

I still attend our family Kali Puja for form's sake. But what does it mean otherwise? I wonder. It satisfies the soul, without even being a Hindu! Such is life. Values without dogma and religion! Embrace the beauty of your loved ones and society without imposing your own!

Embrace the beauty of Indic civilisation without the bigotry!

I have no right to speak of values. I speak for reality. The fight to exist. And that is all!!

apni yadon ke hamare sath rehne de Na jane kis gali me zindagi ki sham dhal jaye

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 19 Oct 2009 04:11

RayC,
as far as I can estimate, both of us will desist from doing certain things, and perhaps we would rather be dead than allow those things to happen - because of our inability to shed our "values". Why is such an inability a bad thing? And why should speaking about our values with conviction be interpreted as "pontification"?

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 19 Oct 2009 04:16

brihaspati wrote:RayC,
as far as I can estimate, both of us will desist from doing certain things, and perhaps we would rather be dead than allow those things to happen - because of our inability to shed our "values". Why is such an inability a bad thing? And why should speaking about our values with conviction be interpreted as "pontification"?

I value what you write.

They are interesting.

I don't value the jingoistic Hinduvta line that I see!

We must speak and achieve what we can.

Can't dream!

Let us speak of Indic values to rejuvenate society, but let us not pretend other cultures have not affected this Indic values.

Reality cannot be forsaken for beliefs held dear!

Pontification?

People speak of singular activity as selfless service. I disagree. Be like the Bharat Sevashram Sangha. Lifetime of dedication. I will accept that.

We, the Army, is taken to be the best and efficient organisation, to come in for solve any national disaster. We are proud of it. In the Andhra cyclpne, they beat us to the draw and with no drama. That is selfless service and so is that of the Army, which has no community, caste, creed or religion! It was a great experience to have been in the Army and I am proud of every moment I spent in this organisation!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 19 Oct 2009 04:32

I am perhaps to a certain extent "majjhim panthi". And my own interpretation of classics makes me "non-stationary", with the quest of the "yatri" forever driving me on. But I do feel that from the practical mobilization angle, we need to utilize what we have, and try our best to clean it of the dirt that has accummulated on top. Sometimes the man just needs a proper bath, a good haircut, a new set of clothes - but the basic human being underneath all that is still vibrant and valuable. I just intend that human to march forward. Maybe I am making the same error that MKG made. But we have his historical experience to make us aware. It is worth a try - I think. I should have your blessings in this attempt and not discouragement.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 19 Oct 2009 04:37

It is worth a try - I think. I should have your blessings in this attempt and not discouragement

I cannot bless you.

I am but a mortal.

All I can say is let us sink our differences before they sink us.

May your God guide you in your Noble mission.

You have the blessings of Millions of us.

Go ahead and help my country!

Tell us when you want us to help your cause!

We will be there!

Umrao Das · Post by **Umrao Das** » 19 Oct 2009 04:37

Kaun Banega Core Pathi?

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 19 Oct 2009 04:39

Umrao Das wrote:Kaun Banega Core Pathi?

You with so many IDs!

That is modern India.

None knows the reality!

Everything is ''Mukhawta".

Umrao Das · Post by **Umrao Das** » 19 Oct 2009 04:51

Till one exhausts Vasanas re incarnation is inevitable.

Through

the Body (B), Mind (M), Intellect (I)

the Perceiver (P), Feeler (F), Thinker (T)

becomes enmeshed in the world of

Objects (O), Emotions (E) and Thoughts (T)

But when we transcend our

Vasanas (V)

we realize our true Self

OM

{Swamy Chinmayananda}

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 19 Oct 2009 04:54

RayC,
I sought your blessing as per Bharatyia tradition I said - that is as an elder, in more senses than one. Nothing more. Regards.

Thanks for your support and wishes.

Umrao Das · Post by **Umrao Das** » 19 Oct 2009 04:59

The easiest and shortest way to God-realization is through the contact of a Sadguru,

Brihaspati is the Sad guru of devas!

and finally

"Life is a jest when its at its best"

Avtar Mehar baba

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 19 Oct 2009 05:00

Do we distinguish between "vaasana" for self and for "others"? My "vaasana" is that my country grows strong and capable of ensuring the happiness of its own people first and in time of all other people - even if it means thrashing up unruly children. Does that make me stagger in my journey for spiritual fulfillment? Oh I don't want to e free of the cycle of birth and reincarnation! I would need a hundred lives as a human to experience and know all that I seek to know. And until my country is recognized as the best in the world, I want to keep on being born to an Indian mother on Indian soil as an Indian. I am perfectly happy not to attain personal moksha in that case!

Umrao Das · Post by **Umrao Das** » 19 Oct 2009 05:02

Ok that Vasana is called Prarabdha when you are born again!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 19 Oct 2009 05:08

I do have some involved questions about reincarnation - but this is not a place for it! However, Umrao Das garu, I really expressed my wish seriously. I do mean it.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Oct 2009 07:30

brihaspati wrote: This is a true story. Please keep this image in mind when the next time the culture of begging comes up for bashing.

I think you have put up a story of an extremely common situation in India but have done the usual Indic thing of moving emotions towards asking for empathy with the condition of the beggar or deprived person. Bollywood survives on tear jerkers based on the theme of "Hum gareeb hai lekin insaan hain" type of stuff. Your story has all the ingredients of a new "Dosti". I saw Dosti maybe 35 years ago - and the story is still the same and people are still winning awards and congratulating themselves for telling stories like "Slumdog Millionaire" in the gareeb+insaan theme.

The point is not that the person really deserves help. That is obvious. What is lost in the discussion is the fact that Indian society is cruelly heartless when it comes to the levels of poverty and deprivation it accepts and takes for granted. Indians are an emotional bunch who will shed tears about the poverty around them. Tears are not needed. What is needed is a discarding of age old attitudes about poverty. I find the pining for the Indic core as another example of pining for a return or preservation of age old attitudes without any specific pointers towards the fact that some of those age old attitudes need to be thrown out ruthlessly. The Indic core has a lot of rubbish that needs to be discarded pronto.

The people who are poor and deprived are not poor and deprived because of any fault of their own. They are poor and deprived because the people around them have ensured that a certain percentage of people will remain at a low level and serve them or starve. It then becomes easy to tell a tear jerker story of someone who has already been screwed up. But lip service is all that the Indic gives to this even if one or two exceptional people try to help.

Let em expand a little on the Indic core tendency to accept that "Work needs to be done every day, but when one needs time off, one just takes time off". I have already given two examples of this - the Gujarati in the UK and the laborer in India.

Now look at the example of a "wealthy man" in India (Income US $ 6000, six thousand a year plus house) who needs to have his house-work done. Typically he will employ a man or a woman whose condition might have been otherwise have been that of the woman "L" in Brihaspati's memoir. I can list at least 20 houses near where live where this is being done. This is true of million of homes across India

On the face of it the arrangement looks good. The entire family of the servant is accommodated in a "servant's quarter" - usually a single room. Since the family are getting accommodation, free water and electricity, the salary can be kept low - often below Rs 2000 a month (US $ 250 a year) . Since India ethos is that work needs to be dome every day, the woman of the servant family is available 24 x 7 to do housework. In the morning she does the cleaning and laundry and last thing at night she does the dishes.There is no "weekly day off" No Sunday holiday. The only way the family can get away is to return to their village for "festivals" - at which time their salary is cut. The husband may double up as gardener or watchman - but he may be allowed to work outside.

This situation is only a slight change from the feudal lord of rural areas with bonded labor. No Indian in his right senses will want to give other Indians perks like one day off work when he will have to wash his own dishes and do his own laundry.

This then is the comfortable "Indic" way in which the relatively wealthy will never ever allow the poor to come up, At least the domestic servant has a stable residence and her kids can go to school but let me show how mealy mouthed we all are.

Every one of us who has a house in India or relatives with houses in India are enjoying the fruits of daily wage labor who live on site while the house is being constructed. These laborers have children who never get an education. When they grow they can only do odd jobs or become laborers like their parents or join the Naxals. Indian society is totally blind to this. Nobody talks about it with the intention of correcting it. It is only useful for making a movie like "Coolie" - a lovely Anglo-Saxon spelling of an Indian word.

India society has some of the worst attitudes and practices in the world mixed up with some good things. We need to throw out the rubbish without mourning for it and imagining that the whole Indic package is good. It is not. It is only 50% good at best.

Yudhajit · Post by **Yudhajit** » 19 Oct 2009 11:14

What you have described above is the result of perfect market competition . Do you think workers in the west are treated relatively better because their employers are more generous?

Blaming an imaginary 'Indic core' for the behavior is just a wasteful exercise, typical of an Indic intellectual onlee.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Oct 2009 15:19

Yudhajit wrote:What you have described above is the result of perfect market competition . Do you think workers in the west are treated relatively better because their employers are more generous?

Blaming an imaginary 'Indic core' for the behavior is just a wasteful exercise, typical of an Indic intellectual onlee.

"Perfect Market Competition?"

This can't be serious

You mean India's crap is because the Indic core is all gone, or is "Perfect" market competition the result of 5000 years of the Indic core perfecting the art of market competition? I haven't heard such perfect rubbish in my life.

If the Indic core leads to "Perfect Market Competition" and gets a country into the sort of rut India is in - the first thing that need to be dumped is this ludicrous "Indic core".

Or is this comment a way to introduce the following theme

"Oh you know the Indic core was very good. No market competition. All happiness. Then Islam came and then the British. And now we have Perfect Market Competition" and 40% of people below the poverty line. 400 million onlee.

That way we can resolve to remove all competition and return to the uncompetitive Indic core.

Please tell me which one you mean? Or whatever else it is your non Indic intellectualism tells you about the rubbish dump that India is for hundreds of millions of people.

I am glad you used the words "imaginary Indic core". As long as you recognize it is imaginary - it cannot be blamed. If it is real - it has a lot of rubbish that needs to be thrown out.

Yudhajit · Post by **Yudhajit** » 19 Oct 2009 16:46

Perfect market competition was with reference to the wealthy man example you gave. I'm only sorry if you misunderstood, I should have specified. Servants are paid and treated as per their demand and supply. There will be many people who will be willing to work for the same conditions. They can come and go at will, nobody is forcing them. All of them already have a fair idea how much they can be paid, and they can change their employers as and when they like. Employers can change the servants whenever they like, whenever they find someone willing to work for a lower cost or with minimum no of holidays. Yes, that is not good, agreed, but that has nothing to do with some core Indic values. Given the situation, the behavior will be the same anywhere, whether India or Sri Lanka. (and pliss, perfect competition does not mean everything is perfect form anyone's pov, it's a commonly used economic term)

Can this be changed? perhaps yes. But inventing some nasty Indic core that is allegedly responsible for poverty and exploitation would be the wrong approach. That's where I differ fundamentally. It's tempting to think the problem must be some culture/core/moral values/behavior or whatever, but it's not. Such opinions only emerge out of mental lethargy and frustration. And to clarify - "Indic core comprises of poverty and exploitation" is an imaginary statement as far as I am concerned.

And I hope you aren't trying to say poverty has been widespread in India for the last 5000 years. Frankly, I didn't understand what you were trying to convey. It seemed a bit too sarcastic for me to comprehend. I always thought poverty became widespread during the British rule (I don't profess to be an expert, but that's a known fact). Please tell us what was the Indic core before that period when India was prosperous? Was it different or same as today? If it was same, then how come India was prosperous despite such a rotten core (as you claim)? If it was good and then it changed, then the question is whether the change in core preceded the change in overall economic conditions, or was it the other way around. If it was the other way around, that what good are your claims of discarding the Indic core (your definition) as a prerequisite for improving the economic conditions of citizens?

My position on the issue - Claims of rotten Indic core as responsible for poverty and deprivation are red herrings.

Yudhajit · Post by **Yudhajit** » 19 Oct 2009 17:00

BTW Shiv saar, how do you reconcile the repulsive poverty glorifying Indic core values with the widely practiced Lakshmi Puja during Diwali (worship of Goddess of wealth and prosperity).

What about the culture of honoring Saraswati (goddess of knowledge). Is that core or periphery?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Oct 2009 18:19

Yudhajit wrote: And to clarify - "Indic core comprises of poverty and exploitation" is an imaginary statement as far as I am concerned.

And I hope you aren't trying to say poverty has been widespread in India for the last 5000 years. Frankly, I didn't understand what you were trying to convey.

My position on the issue - Claims of rotten Indic core as responsible for poverty and deprivation are red herrings.

OK I will accept your beliefs on face value.

But let me state my case again.

If there is an an imaginary or real entity called the "Indic core" it needs to be defined with a degree of clarity.

If it is sought to define the "Indic core" as some utopian ideal two things come to mind right away:
1) A utopian ideal does not exist now
2) The utopian ideal (if it ever existed) did not have the ability to survive uncorrupted and is either gone now or is corrupted

A third possibility exists - and that is that the "Indic core" was not a utopian ideal at all and was a mix of good and bad.

As long a one fails to properly define an "Indic core' it is possible to eternally beat about the bush and use a series of rhetorical "hints and nudges" to explain away the bad/negative aspects of Indian society as not part of the Indic core and the good/positive aspects of Indian society as "the real Indic core"

I started by asking, on an earlier page "What is Indic?" Only one response came from one person.. Based on that response it was clear to me that one could make either a positive construct of "Indic core" or a negative construct based on what I observe of Indian society. From here I started listing all that might be negative about the Indic core until it evoked a reaction from you - which is exactly where we are and the reason I am making this post.

There is a certain tolerance level - beyond which criticism of India using existing and demonstrable facts leads to pain. Perhaps it is love for India that causes this pain. When that pain occurs a complaint or accusation is is made against the critic and the criticism may be sought to be softened by some means. I believe that is what you did. I don't blame you for doing that but it only leads to more questions:

Even if the India of today is the result of "Perfect Market Forces" there is perfect misery for millions who would opt for more money and a more comfortable life if they could get it. A person who is unable to give his child healthcare or education is certainly a statistic of "perfect market forces". A society that accepts this is hardly a great society. Is this society an example of the "Indic core"?

Is the inability to countenance criticism of this imperfect society also a characteristic of the "Indic core" ? Perhaps a widespread inability to accept that there are serious problems in India actually compounds and perpetuates the problems of Indian society?

I am just asking difficult questions because the answers I have reached are a mixed bag. I have my own answers and I ask because I want to know if anyone else has asked himself these questions and what answers he has found. When no specific answers come i usually proceed to put down my own answers.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 19 Oct 2009 19:18

Shivji,
if you read my narrative carefully - you will see that I was not describing a beggar. I categorically stated that she refused money, so the only way I could help her was by buying her stuff. My tears were not for her miserable condition but recognizing the futility of my efforts and my "akshamata" in being able to intervene in proper time.

My story was more to self-flagellate and remind that we ourselves could intervene in a lot of places but we fail to intervene in time. Moreover, the failures of sustaining such individual interventions is that what convinced me that "mere charity" and "social work" does not help and does not achive anything lasting. It has to be a clear-cut society wide, rashtra backed and imposed initiative. Where certain of our core values have to be re-established as compulsory.

I firmly rejected individual "moksha" in my two relevant posts. I said fundamental core value and aim was attainment of gnana, and it can only be sustained if it becomes a social project not an individual one.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Oct 2009 19:51

Yudhajit wrote:BTW Shiv saar, how do you reconcile the repulsive poverty glorifying Indic core values with the widely practiced Lakshmi Puja during Diwali (worship of Goddess of wealth and prosperity).

What about the culture of honoring Saraswati (goddess of knowledge). Is that core or periphery?

This is actually hypocrisy. The same bunch of people who spend, for example Rs 80,000 on a vulgar and garish image of Tirupati Venkataramana festooned with LEDs flashing and a monotonous eletronic voice repeating the Gayatri mantra is also the person who employs a 13 year old girl from "his village" as 24X7 servant who cleans the floors, does the dishes and acts as "ayah" for little baba the grandson. A pooja or a function in a temple may cost them 2 lakh, but they are never going to offer the standard minimum salary to any servant or give them a day off in a week.

It is, as you said "Perfection" in market forces, demand and supply. The only problem is that the commodity that is in plentiful supply and cheap are human beings.

I have never met any fellow desi who is not indignant about how white people had black slaves. On the other hand we have you on here clearly admitting that humans are a commodity whose price is determined by market forces. You have chosen to explain away exploitation of humans as "Perfect Market Forces"

If this anomaly is not hypocrisy, what is it? And more to the point is this type of hypocrisy an Indic characteristic

Umrao Das · Post by **Umrao Das** » 19 Oct 2009 20:16

India is not a por country its poorly goverened country.

Poverty is a state of mind.

Change in economic status requires hard work physical or mental sometimes both.

As long as its free market and no bonded labour, optimizing utility is built into human nature.

Once upon a time in India when cycle rickshaws were common like now in NYC, people used to bragain for a ride

Traveller: Chelte kya?
Rickshaw puller: Kidar ko?
Traveller: Bhashher bag?
Rickshaw puller: Kitte logan?
Traveller: Ek Aadmi Ek Aurat aur ek Bachhi.
Rickshaw puller: DO rupiah de do.
Traveller: Kay ji rastha pura utar hai ek rupiah lelo
Rickshaw puller: Isa kisa bolteji aadha chadav hai aadha utar hai mehnat to karna padega.
Traveller: Agar akela hota my paidal chelejatha magar aurath aur bachhi lag gaye mere saath.
Rickshaw: Kya saab mehengaye bad gayee, chawal ka daam dekho chai pani ka daam dekho.
Traveller: Waajbi dam ek rupiah aathane deyunga chalo.
Now the utility calculations enter into Rickshaw wallahs mind, if its first customer better make a deal and earn something or if its 7th or 8th customer then calculate marginal utility of of two Rs versus some rest, A risk return computation is done
and
Rickshaw puller: Saab kuch soch samaj kar dedo chaipani

Now its time for traveller to do same calculation on utility, risk return and a bargain is stuck.

There is no dharma here, only the dharma or compasion if you are from other community (like the way they report on AIR during roits) kicks in when you pay hime extra or tip for the effort, some who cant pay get down the rickshaw when up gradient comes in and hop on during down gradient thats Humanity.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 19 Oct 2009 21:37

Yudhajit wrote:
Blaming an imaginary 'Indic core' for the behavior is just a wasteful exercise, typical of an Indic intellectual onlee.

Favorite topic of marxist and leftist. Many hidden leftists in BRF

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 19 Oct 2009 22:13

shiv wrote: Is the inability to countenance criticism of this imperfect society also a characteristic of the "Indic core" ? Perhaps a widespread inability to accept that there are serious problems in India actually compounds and perpetuates the problems of Indian society?

I don't think Indians hold any monopoly when it comes to the inability to accept our imperfections. Being humans, we consider the messenger and the delivery style of the criticisms. When delivered correctly, most of us accept the imperfections. Only a select few would come under the bucket who can not accept valid criticisms because it is so hurtful.

When my home team wins in the games, it pleasures me immensely. I spend hours and hours reading the analysts and pour through the score. When they are defeated, I just don't want to read or listen to anything. It is very painful. But I am just an emotional fan. There is no benefit to the actual if I turn into a rational person and analyse the games. I might become a well-informed fan.

When it comes to society or country, it is as painful if not more. And some of us just can take it. And it is helpful if the messenger measures the delivery & the message; and the receiver to analyse the issue pushing the hurt aside for a moment or two.

No society has been perfect, and when someone of our own points out issues it is good to hear it out.

And shiv, I don't think our culture encourages a person to beg. Consider how emotional people are in our culture and the pride (including false pride) that we carry on our shoulders.

Yudhajit · Post by **Yudhajit** » 19 Oct 2009 22:18

Shiv sir, you have coined the term Indic core, you define it.

As far as I am concerned, there is no such Indic core (the kind you are trying to define). Indians are as dishonest, honest, miserly, generous, foolish, wise, selfish, altruistic as anybody else on this earth. I think India just needs better governance, better democracy. We need to first exhaust these options before we start blaming culture.

Nobody denies the existence of problems. The question is where do you put the blame and what solutions you offer.

I have never met any fellow desi who is not indignant about how white people had black slaves. On the other hand we have you on here clearly admitting that humans are a commodity whose price is determined by market forces. You have chosen to explain away exploitation of humans as "Perfect Market Forces"

Well, if your diagnosis is wrong, your prescription too would be of no use.

If a certain skill is available in plenty, it's value will go down. With too many people eager to take up the same kind of job, exploitation will eventually creep in. That is inevitable, unless the govt enforces certain minimum standards. Why do you think minimum wages exist in the US. They do not suffer from any Indic core syndrome, or do they? Why do you think employers there honor the laws, and here they don't?

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 19 Oct 2009 22:25

brihaspati wrote:I firmly rejected individual "moksha" in my two relevant posts. I said fundamental core value and aim was attainment of gnana, and it can only be sustained if it becomes a social project not an individual one.

And what is the 'gnana' really for? Is the 'gnana' (jnana) just for its sake? Wasn't there a goal for gaining this knowledge?

Our ancient philosophers and rishis had good opportunity to study the humans and reflect upon their behavior. Hence, they provided multiple margas for people to achieve 'moksha'. This 'moksha' could be right here on this earth. It could be deliverance from the cycle of 'poverty' (a subject that this thread has now veered towards).

Suffering of humans was a subject that was pondered a lot about by Hindus, Buddhists and Jaina rishis. Overcoming this suffering formed the basis for several thoughts, resulting in the scriptures we have now.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 19 Oct 2009 23:11

SwamyG wrote:
brihaspati wrote:I firmly rejected individual "moksha" in my two relevant posts. I said fundamental core value and aim was attainment of gnana, and it can only be sustained if it becomes a social project not an individual one.
And what is the 'gnana' really for? Is the 'gnana' (jnana) just for its sake? Wasn't there a goal for gaining this knowledge?

Our ancient philosophers and rishis had good opportunity to study the humans and reflect upon their behavior. Hence, they provided multiple margas for people to achieve 'moksha'. This 'moksha' could be right here on this earth. It could be deliverance from the cycle of 'poverty' (a subject that this thread has now veered towards).

Suffering of humans was a subject that was pondered a lot about by Hindus, Buddhists and Jaina rishis. Overcoming this suffering formed the basis for several thoughts, resulting in the scriptures we have now.

I am curious to know Moskha from what and whom and for who ? Is it not true that in Upanishads quest for Moksha arrises out of Ignorance as In the ultimate game , Moskha matters little . Even Avatars dont want Moskha the why do we human need it. IMH understanding We are destined or we should aim at something much higher than this much sought after target . In fact Moskha should be refused as it is high scale selfish act , proof of lacking in power to renounce personal achievement.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 20 Oct 2009 00:36

India of today is a country full of hypocrisy and symbolism.

Even posts here suggest so.

Friends and relative who do occasional charity are taken to be doing selfless. Not true. That is pure symbolism to salve the conscience.

There is no sustained effort.

Of course, there are organisations that are devoted to society, but they are not the 'millions' that is being suggested.

All this Indic core and all that is for the superficial 'intellectualism' that all Indians (who are otherwise comfortable to face life) to gloat on and have a 'warm glow' of having done something for society.

I would say that if they really care for society, let them donate all the riches, live in ash and sack cloth and off on penance to the Himalayas and not be on their expensive PCs pontificating on the Internet!

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 20 Oct 2009 00:48

Prem wrote: I am curious to know Moskha from what and whom and for who ? Is it not true that in Upanishads quest for Moksha arrises out of Ignorance as In the ultimate game , Moskha matters little . Even Avatars dont want Moskha the why do we human need it. IMH understanding We are destined or we should aim at something much higher than this much sought after target . In fact Moskha should be refused as it is high scale selfish act , proof of lacking in power to renounce personal achievement.

Hopefully nobody discredits the sources/rishis because of my interpretations/misunderstandings. I am just learning. Commonly moksham is from samsaram - the cycle of birth and death. Different sutras and bhasyams talk about the eventual union with the Supreme. I do not know if anything can be greater than the union with the Supreme.

To me, a person who cannot wrap my head around the concept of Supreme, Divinity, Gods, Force ithayadi, I consider moksham as being equivalent to a good understanding of life on earth. I do not get into paranormal because my head hurts when I think about these, I can neither understand nor explain those to myself or others. So I restrict my interpretation to my experiences on this earth. Our culture & tradition gives, me and us, the freedom to explore and find things out for ourselves. I do not use the Bhakti margam, but the jnana and karma margam are fine. It is my belief that if I continue to understand life better and and do my best for my family, my society & my country then I have done something in life. That is my moksham.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 20 Oct 2009 02:15

SwamyG,
"Gnana" in my interpretation is taken to be "awareness" of "union with supreme" or more accurately, becoming aware of being part of the "supreme". That will need complete awareness of "supreme" or more accurately, the "all-encompassing". I also take that, part of the process of becoming aware is also through the "senses" - which gives rise to formal research, science and education to understand the world around us. Therefore in the chain of logic I gave in my earlier post, pursuit of knowledge in the formal sense as we understand it today also becomes a legitimate portion of the fundamental aim. Moreover, by other parts of my logic, such practical knowledge also becomes important in the health and progress of biological life and society.

As a living society is important for gaining and sustaining knowledge, it becomes an integral task to see to it that society flourishes also. Thus pursuit of individual "moksha" in the sense I have elaorated becomes integrally linked to preservation and enhancements of the capacity of the society also. Both go together.

Umrao Das · Post by **Umrao Das** » 20 Oct 2009 03:28

Shiv is the personification of Indic core

He is beyond hate
He is beyond bondage
He is beyond comprehension most of the time