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harbans wrote:
The biggest problem the GOI faces in tackling Pakis is not the shortage of knee jerk anti-Pak haters, but the severe shortage of people who understand the ideological pinnings of Pakistans intense hatred to India. Lack of that understanding causes LKA to praise Jinnah, ABV to fall for NS, IKG to hug NS, MMS to capitulate in SeS. So by focussing on ' A good Paki is a dead one' or shock on 'only 2 teenage animals killed', in reality depicts a change of focus from the real causes we should be battling against. And when the ideological reasons we should be fighting against are lost, at the critical juncture there will be a dilemna to fight, because they've lost the reason/ raison-de-etre why we were fighting them in the first place itself. Thats the moral dilemna in the GOI vis a vis Pakistan and China too. Thats why PSJ and AP Venketesan say we succumb to the Chinese and bend over. Thats why an LKA who ranted knee jerk hatred against Muslims and Pakistan galore in the 90's, meekly became a WKK on his trip to Pakistan and hence forth. Hitting out at core ideology even subtly or unkowingly is very unnerving. Thats why China is rankled on AP and the GOI is still unsure why China is rankled.
Excellent observations, truly the melody of the Hari Bansuri.
Everything you say about the Paks is true. But it is not sufficient to understand the ideological pinnings of the Paks. We also need to understand the modus operandi of those who use the Paks' insanity for their own ends.
I heard this a long time back, but it seems Paki word started off in UK. It was Indians who objected when they were casually called Paki's and there were brawls. It was insulting for Indians to be called Paki. When it became insulting for Paki's to be called Paki's is unknown. My guess is Paki's did an == on Indians feeling bad about a term, thats if the Indians feel bad about being called a Paki, so do we.
But it is not sufficient to understand the ideological pinnings of the Paks. We also need to understand the modus operandi of those who use the Paks' insanity for their own ends.
Indeed. But only when one understands say Ghazwa E Hind that PA mandates on itself as holy duty, does one understand why they will use Terror as an acceptable state instrument. When one fathoms that, one can visualize the strategies they will use including Taqiyya. Every one of our PMs till date has fallen for Taqiyya. And that includes Prithvi Raj Chauhan of yonder. Failure to understand the ideology was the reason India was conquered in the first place.
harbans wrote:It makes little sense hating individuals in all this. Like i said before, will one gloat at Saudi 5-10 year old school girls burning to death because the authorities sent them in because they were not covered, since they would've become big and joined the rotten Saudi Barbarian system anyways. I would attack the ideology that seeks to cover women in shuttlecock tents than laugh at the women who have to bear the plight.
The biggest problem the GOI faces in tackling Pakis is not the shortage of knee jerk anti-Pak haters, but the severe shortage of people who understand the ideological pinnings of Pakistans intense hatred to India. Lack of that understanding causes LKA to praise Jinnah, ABV to fall for NS, IKG to hug NS, MMS to capitulate in SeS.
Hari:
It is not about crying. It is about expressing happiness or glee, no? We belong to a desh in which our soldiers performed anthim sanskar to the enemy soldiers with respect.
Shall delete my stoopid prose from the last few pages. And this thread is best left to experts like Sri Sridhar. Peace!
So the logic is: Pukis would have done it so we will also do it. Some kind of equal-equal, hainji?
Nope. It only says should push come to shove, be prepared to kill them the way they would have killed you and me. equal-equal, perhaps, in some lofty noble dharmic discourse somewhere.
ISLAMABAD: Interior Minister Rehman Malik has said that there is clear evidence of Indian involvement in Balochistan and that New Delhi should not be pointing fingers at Islamabad.
The interior minister said that India must be prepared to come to the table and discuss their concerns. He added that Pakistan is well aware of the Indian involvement in Balochistan and if given the opportunity, they will present officials in New Delhi with concrete evidence.
He was responding to Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s statements, when the federal minister warned that India should not hurl accusations at Pakistan as it is fighting a war on terror and is also holding trials of the Mumbai attack suspects. He said that India should respect Pakistan’s judicial system.
This is yet another TSP tactic i.e. to bring in out of context issues which in first place are completely false and based on hallucinations of GOP's think tank .
Last edited by negi on 21 Oct 2009 20:37, edited 2 times in total.
Meanwhile the government has failed to win over the Mehsud tribes in an effort to isolate the Taliban, according to McClatchy . Yesterday, Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Pervez Kiyani wrote a letter to the Mehsuds attempting to explain the operation and assure the leader that the tribe was not the target.
“The aim of the ongoing operation is not to target the respectable and patriot Mehsud tribes but its purpose is to liberate the Mehsud tribes from the clutches of cruel terrorists, who have already destroyed the peace of entire area,” Kiyani wrote in a letter that was later published in the Associated Press of Pakistan. “The main targets of the operation are Uzbek terrorists, foreigners as well as local terrorists.”
“I am hopeful that the Mehsud tribes will extend all possible support to Pakistan Army and will stand up against the brute forces, so that the national flag once again flutter over the homeland of Mehsuds with all its dignity,” Kiyani continued.
The Mehsuds answered the letter, saying they would not take up arms against the Taliban. "In the current hazardous situation, it is not possible for us to support you," the tribal leaders told the governor of the Northwest Frontier Province, according to McClatchy .
The Taliban have killed hundreds of tribal leaders in South Waziristan since taking control in 2004. The current tribal leaders either outwardly support the Taliban or are too fearful to act against them.
While the Taliban scored their two victories in South Waziristan, their suicide bombers conducted a successful strike in the heart of Pakistan. Two bombers, one of them possibly a female, detonated their suicide vests at the Islamic International University of Islamabad. Five students were killed when the bomber attacked a women's cafeteria and a men's sharia, or Islamic law, program.
I hope that Hafeez Gul Bahadur (North Waziristan) and Maulvi Nazeer (South Waziristan), whom the TSPA claims have decided to be neutral and allowed the TSPA to pass through their Wazirir territories without let or hindrance, strike at the TSPA at the most appropriate time after drawing them deep inside. That would be fun. The TSPA is going by the deep relationships that exist between Jalaluddin Haqqani and the TSPA/ISI. But, I wish that these warlords exhibit their notorious fickle mindedness when the world needs it. Or, the TSPA does something silly that angers them. All said and done, TSPA is not on solid grounds here.They have to constantly be looking over their shoulders.
^ Sir what are the chances of ISI/PA having coughed up some money ( we know the AID is on its way )or reached an understanding with these factions about informing the latter about DRONE strikes and NATO troop movement.
ISLAMABAD: Interior Minister Rehman Malik has said that there is clear evidence of Indian involvement in Balochistan and that New Delhi should not be pointing fingers at Islamabad.
.
They were born intelligent, but they use the gift rarely. Rehman malik recently had quite a bad publicity in paki media,Its probably an attempt by him to win back some goodwill. and only one issue can get him that..India!
All these are being done just before Winter, quickly after a few bouts of victory here and there both (should I say all or one) will claim Great Victory and retire for the Winter.
Am sure Don Rumsfield is a mighty unpopular figure in papistan but there was something indeed to what he was saying when he was talking about 'unknown unknowns' onlee.
The same unknown unknowns did the mighty khanian mideast reconquista project in. Of sorts. Who knows what it'll do the even more mighty and tfta TSP, eh?
People are getting a little bit too senti here about a minor vacumn explosion in an allegedly islamic looniversity. I can only wonder what sort of advanced scientific/humanitarian studies were being taught there as part of the curriculum, especially, in the sharia block. Let's see... introduction to jihad; intermediate jihad - practical applications; advanced jihad and taqiya techniques; martial conquests of arab ancestors; supreme race - sunnius muslimus maximus; global conquest – an unfinished business; YYY conspiracies against islam – past, present and future; heaven – houries and eternal priapism; shahadat – why not?; Chemistry – instantaneous exothermic reactions…
Every single one of those faith-fool ghazi brothers and kendostyx sistas was overflowing with hatred for everything non-sunni and uncircumcised. By default, that includes me (and my Rottweiler). But there is one thing they forgot – they are not the only students of Islamic ideology and sciences. There are many more schools of islamic thought in the remote regions of the Islamic Emirates in NWFP/FATA which draw their inspiration from a quote kafir Elvis borrowed from the grand poobah, “A little less conversation, a little more action”. The uber faith-fool graduates of these advanced institutions see haram conduct being practiced by RAPE and their kin in an expressly declared islamic republic – in addition to – violent jihad being waged on their villages on behalf of war on islam declared by YYY. So now, per instructions of the poobah, they have an obligation to settle the score and set straight these non-believing believers…
Therefore, just because the faith-fool students of the islamic looniversity in islam-bad were born muslims does not mean they were “true muslims”. Therefore, arab mujahids have every right to come after their musharraf and only allah is hafiz. If those students were truly pious and prayed on schedule with their arse inclined at the precise angle as prescribed by the al-kitab, allah would have been pleased and saved them from being wall-paint, no? Well, he did not! Who the f*** are we to question his judgement?
Meanwhile Nightwatch 10/19.09 analyses the Rahe na- ijjat....
Operation Rah-e-Hijat in South Waziristan Update. The army killed 20 Taliban on the fourth day of Operation Rah-e-Nijat against the Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan in South Waziristan, the military said on Tuesday, as troops intensified the battle for control of Kotkai.
An exceptionally reputable and well informed McClatchy correspondent, a native Pakistani, provided a very different version of the fighting at Kotkai in South Waziristan. As reported in the Miami Herald. Saeed Shah reported,
Taliban guerrillas recaptured the birthplace of the Pakistani Taliban leader( Hakimullah Mehsud) from the Pakistan Army Tuesday, inflicting the heaviest military losses so far in Pakistan's high-stakes offensive in South Waziristan….Taliban militants attacked Pakistani forces and recaptured the strategic town of Kotkai, Reuters reported Oct. 20. Security officials said government forces captured Kotkai but militants struck back to retake it. An intelligence official said seven soldiers including a major and several Taliban were killed in the fighting. Another intelligence official said jets bombed Taliban positions in and around Kotkai after the militant counterattack.
This report suggests that one of the three prongs of the Pakistan Army offensive got sucked into an ambush. Shah’s report and the Army statement are the first credible and congruent reports of a serious engagement. The Army got bested today, reminiscent of Musharraf’s campaign in North Waziristan.
McClatchy’s Shah also reported that government attempts to enlist the aid of Mahsud tribesmen were rejected by the tribal elders. The Mahsuds understand this is a punitive campaign. In other words, the deeper the Pakistan Army units move into South Waziristan, the greater is their danger of massacre, but for over-watch by the Pakistan Air Force. This “all out campaign” is faltering after four days, probably because it is far from an all out campaign.
Maybe we will see the revenge of the First Afghan War and SSridhar turns out right as usual.
and on 10/20/09
Comment: This is typical of the kinds of deals that Musharraf made repeatedly: tactically sound, potentially strategically foolish. It is premature to be cynical, but this begins to look like another Pakistani good show, but not a serious effort to suppress militant terrorism. The Army does not appear to sense a threat to national survival. Rather, it appears to be punishing the Mehsuds for anti-government bombings and attacks, rather in British colonial style. But stay tuned.
Footnote: The Pakistan Army issued a statement through the local press that it was tired of getting criticized.
harbans wrote:So by focussing on ' A good Paki is a dead one' or shock on 'only 2 teenage animals killed', in reality depicts a change of focus from the real causes we should be battling against.
Because of course, it is impossible to harbour clear, unsentimental convictions about Pakistan while simultaneously using one's powers of observation, intellection and analysis to battle against the "real causes".
Just as it is impossible to walk and chew gum at the same time.
While the so-called operation is underway in South Waziristan, it is important to keep an eye on North Waziristan. Is this 'operation' a ruse to divert attention from the northern part of that #$%^hole? If so, what does the TSPA want to achieve there.
TSPA is hiding its Haqqani "assets" in N. Waziristan. Read the NY Times series by escaped reporter David Rohde this week. In addition, TSPA sends LeT pigs to work in Afghanistan from there.
Scratching my head. Can gurus please enlighten me how a jet can be an asset in such counter terrorist operation? Is it being used as a surveillance tool for its radar? Otherwise I am tired of imagining f16 relentlessly bombarding waziristan.
US must be very stupid then for not using its inventory in afghanistan.
The limits are in a 680-billion-dollar US Defense Department spending measure for 2010 that the Senate will take up after the bill cleared the House of Representatives in a 281-146 vote on October 8.
The fresh limits include efforts to track where US military hardware sent to Pakistan ends up, as well as a warning that US aid to Pakistan must not upset "the balance of power in the region" - a reference to tensions with India.
The legislation also calls for the White House to send lawmakers a report every 180 days on progress toward long-term security and stability in Pakistan.
Democratic Senator Robert Menendez and Republican Senator Bob Corker crafted the new restrictions.
David Rohde is milking the incident. Good story telling for the Western audience. We should not be surprised if there is a book or movie deal in the next couple of years. It will be in the genre of books that Tom Clancy or Vince Flynn write.
Scratching my head. Can gurus please enlighten me how a jet can be an asset in such counter terrorist operation? Is it being used as a surveillance tool for its radar? Otherwise I am tired of imagining f16 relentlessly bombarding waziristan.
US must be very stupid then for not using its inventory in afghanistan.
F-16s are effective when you know the target location. For TTP army, its easy to locate their yesterday's brother in arms.
Sridhar wrote:While the so-called operation is underway in South Waziristan, it is important to keep an eye on North Waziristan. Is this 'operation' a ruse to divert attention from the northern part of that #$%^hole? If so, what does the TSPA want to achieve there.
At the best this operation is to clean up the foreign fighters who are opposing/resisting TSPAs ambitions and hijacking of Jihad. They are mostly SW based and once they are neutralized TSPA will have the full control of the Taliban through Haqqani and similar other strategic assets who are/control the so called good taliban. Any other factions/tribes opposing them will be neutralized too through this operation.
US will gain as foreign fighters are great mentors and form the inner core which is sustaining the whole resistance in afghanistan. TSPA will gain as they will get control back on their strategic assets which they can use as per the need and convenience. Expect more attacks on Indias interest in Afghanistan if the operations are successful in SW.
David Rohde is milking the incident. Good story telling for the Western audience. We should not be surprised if there is a book or movie deal in the next couple of years. It will be in the genre of books that Tom Clancy or Vince Flynn write.
PARACHINAR, Pakistan — Soldiers fought for the Pakistani Taliban chief's hometown Wednesday as they pressed an offensive along the Afghan border, while intelligence officials said U.S. missiles hit territory controlled by another insurgent, threatening to undermine deals that keep some militants out of the battle.
The missile strike Wednesday targeted Spalaga, a village with at least 1,000 homes in the North Waziristan tribal region. Two intelligence officials said at least two suspected insurgents were killed. Their identities were not immediately known
The U.S. has launched scores of missiles in South and North Waziristan over the past year, including one that killed former Pakistani Taliban chief Baitullah Mehsud in August. But the latest strike was especially sensitive.
It hit territory controlled by Hafiz Gul Bahadur, a militant leader the army has coaxed into remaining neutral during the offensive against the Mehsud faction in South Waziristan. Pakistan considers Bahadur, along with militant leader Maulvi Nazir of South Waziristan, lesser priorities because they focus on battling U.S. and NATO troops in Afghanistan, not targets inside Pakistan.
Analysts said the missile strikes, which have long angered ordinary Pakistanis and motivated militant fighters, could stir fury among Bahadur's insurgents, straining the deals with the army.
"This has the potential of messing up the calculus of the Pakistanis," said Kamran Bokhari, an analyst with Stratfor, a U.S.-based global intelligence firm. "It could broaden the scope of the war for the Pakistanis, which they're not prepared for at this time."
Those who are born in the territories occupied by the GOTSP and TSPA, do not probably have a special terrorist gene. So by birth they are not liable to be treated as animals for slaughter. But the main problem is that for whatever historical reasons (acceptance of Islam), they are born into an Islamist society. Therefore they are brainwashed into whatever format the GOTSP and the backbone elite of TSP want them to live and think as. These are people who are never given access to alternative ideologies to Jihadi Islam, never given access to real history of their peoples and their lands, never allowed to challenge the Mullahs and theologians.
While we cannot blame them for what they do, neither can we tolerate their actions when they join the elite and factions within the government and army against India and non-Muslims. We have to model them as pests for whom biting or destroying human interests or fruits of labour has become part of their nature. It is not a question of sympathy or hatred. It is an unemotional aspect of dealing with trauma for a people - Indians - not really repsonsible for what Pakistan's elite with western support has created for its people. If we do not want this trauma, we have to finish off the very structure that maintains the driving motivation and ideological justification for this trauma. As long as TSP exists, various versions of the massacres, rapes, loots, destructions, that has been the hallmark of Islamic regimes on the subcontinent from the time of their advent, will continue through the state of Pakistan. In that continuation the common Pakistani also plays a role.
The only way to ensure that this ever-repeating trauma from the Islamic core ideal of jihad and ghazwa, is obliterated forever, is to ensure that Islamism cannot have any independent existence and association with rashtryia power. This means at some point in the future, TSP has to be destroyed as an independent political entity. As long as it exists, even in non-functional terrorist state form, there will be international elements who will help it exercise its rashtryia claims and privileges.
As and when TSP needs to e destroyed, if the commons of Pakistan come forward in support of their terrorist rashtra, and oppose the liquidation of their terrorist government and army - they will have to accept collateral damage. We can offer them an escape route, if they voluntarily overthrow their terrorist rashtryia machinery and agree to merge with Bharat. But otherwise, we have to calmly and unemotionally get through the business of the liquidation of all potential resistance to the liquidation of the terrorist rashtra itself.
The Islamists have a consistent practice in their historical wars. They do this by their claim of sunna or whatever was done by the prophet serves as compulsorily imitable and implementable practice forever into the future. In almost all wars, waged by predominantly Muslim armies, the tendency has been to try and liquidate the adult male population of non-Muslim enemies, but preserve the pre-puberty males and all females - for conversion and enslavement. This is usually represented as offering the honour of "marriage" to "widows" (the concept of "right-hand-possessions" or captive of war as booty is usually glossed over) and shelter to "orphans".
I am sure some even among us will see that such tactics by Islamists are justified because they are "effective" and suits the objectives of "survival/expansion" for Islamists. By removing adult males from the population - either by enslavement or execution, they are ensuring that military resistance from the society has no chance of recovering within one or two generations. While others will be petrified with abhorrence for what will appear to be obviously an "adharmic" way of waging war.
I do not see why we cannot learn the essential lessons of Islamic Jihad and Ghazwa as an effective means of absorbing a resisting society. Jihad is a motto of the TSPA, and by declaring itself formally as an Islamic state, TSP has firmly identified itself in the classic Islamic viewpoint - as a state that exists for expansion of Islam though Jihad and ghazwas. As such they do not recognize the rights of other peoples to be shielded from jihad. Which frees us from applying the essential tactics that they apply whenever they have the chance.
To break TSP's backbone, the Jihadi tactic of elimination of adult male potential fighting portion of the population should be considered. Afterwards, "widows" should be honoured with offers of "marriage", and orphans given shelter and brought up in "proper life philosophy" (which Islamics claimed to do by educating in their faith). If people can find justification in Islamist strategy as an effective strategy benefiting Islamists, hopefully we can extend that logic to any strategy that benefits Indics.
Aaah - aapke mooh mein ghee shakkar