Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

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pgbhat
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by pgbhat »

Acharya wrote: Good points to discuss but lot of incorrect facts of the social history of Indian populations.
There are now studies which says that Indian IQ with high number will reach 200-300M in 20-30 years.

The narration is a good example of fractal recursivity.
Acharya thanks for the reply. :)
RayC
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by RayC »

Religion is said to be for the good of mankind and bring Peace to the world.

What does history indicate?

Brihaspati,

Sieg Heil = "Victory Hail"

Something like ''Jai Hind".

The Swastika too was usurped by the Nazis, but then it still remains scared to Indians!

Life is but a merry go round!

One must have belief in oneself and not proselytise. Strength in numbers can be overcome by the strength and power in belief!

Everything is a Maya.

Ehyeh asher ehyeh
ramana
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by ramana »

Correction. The Nazi symbol was the haken cruz and not the Hindu Swastika.
RayC
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by RayC »

ramana wrote:Correction. The Nazi symbol was the haken cruz and not the Hindu Swastika.
The Swastika has an interesting history.

It is not that it is just an Indian symbol.

It is UNIVERSAL.

Swastika

One should read this.

The Finnish Air Force still uses it.

It may interest the Indic posters that The "Friday" Mosque in Iran has a lot of beautiful mosaic symbols in various places, and many of them have the image of swastikas.
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by RayC »

Another interesting site on the Swastika

Hakenkreuz

It is a great symbol that has been defamed by the Nazis!

We should not care about what the western world feels!

Even if Brihsapati does not like it - I will say Seig Heil!

Proud to be an Indian (without the baggage)!

Unity in Diversity!

My men have served me well and MY COUNTRY in war and peace!

I cannot abandon them on their religion! Can I?
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by RayC »

Image

According to some sources, the building is part of the training facilities for Navy Seals, and is perhaps their barracks. It's nicknamed "The Seals Lair".
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by svinayak »

4/4

Never searched a German version of "Mein Kampf"; anyone know a link? Have always wanted to run a search over it for the word "Swastika"/"Svastika". I could be wrong, but I have a feeling it will not occur in there...

So far in my experience, wartime Nazis/Germans - German language materials - did not use the word "Swastika". It was only "Hakenkreuz" (Cross-of-Hooks) in all the German language texts, including post-war materials, that I have seen covering nazism.


1. In the following German site on the Holocaust (Shoah), look at the number of times they mention "Hakenkreuz" (= the name of the nazi symbol). I've made the word Hakenkreuz bold each time.
Since the article is about the Hakenkreuz, it is even there in the title itself.

2. And then note that the entire page mentions Swastika/Svastika only 3 times. Of which the first ("Svastika") refers specifically to 'the name of a similarly shaped symbol in India'.
The remaining two mentions (as "Swastika") is in the reference section and refers to its use in titles of ENGLISH language books. (The English language wartime press in UK and US is where the nightmare involving our sacred symbol's sacred name began.)
In the following text, I've bold, underlined the word Swastika/Svastika each time.

3. !! And the article below quotes from Hitler's Mein Kampf - in the original German. And see, even when he wrote his book he was using the actual word that all the nazis subsequently used for the symbol: "HAKENKREUZ".

In the following:
Bits translated into English are in blue
Original text in German that was translated in red
My comments in purple


http://www.shoa.de/drittes-reich/ns-ideolo...ns-symbols.html
Das Hakenkreuz - Geschichte eines NS-Symbols
The Cross-of-Hooks - History of a Nationalsozialismus (=Nazism) Symbol

Geschrieben von: Bernd Kleinhans

Das Hakenkreuz ist das bekannteste Symbol des Nationalsozialismus. Als offizielles Banner diente es der NSDAP bereits seit 1920. Adolf Hitler selbst soll nach der parteiinternen Überlieferung die charakteristische Gestaltung des schwarzen Hakenkreuzes auf weißem Grund, eingebettet in einen roten Rahmen, entworfen haben. In "Mein Kampf" schreibt er: "Denn die neue Fahne mußte ebensosehr ein Symbol unseres eigenen Kampfes sein, wie sie auch andererseits auch von großer, plakatmäßiger Wirkung sein sollte. Ein wirkungsvolles Abzeichen kann in Hunderttausenden von Fällen den ersten Anstoß zum Interesse an einer Bewegung geben."


Vorgeschichte
Emblem der Thule-Gesellschaft (Vorläuferorganisation der NSDAP)
Emblem der Thule-Gesellschaft (Völkisch - antisemitische Organisation um die Jahrhundertwende)
Das Hakenkreuz ist keine Erfindung der Nationalsozialisten. Als religiöses Symbol findet es sich beinahe weltweit in unterschiedlichsten Kulturen, in China, Indien, Griechenland, bei den Kelten, den Germanen und nordamerikanischen Indianern. Soweit es sich noch rekonstruieren lässt, symbolisierte das Hakenkreuz häufig das Sonnenrad oder stand für das Leben schlechthin. In Teilen der altindischen Mythologie galt die "Svastika", wie das Hakenkreuz dort genannt wurde, als Symbol des vollkommenen Lebens: Ausgehend vom Lebenszentrum symbolisierten die vier Arme die Möglichkeiten menschlicher Entwicklung: Gott werden, in die Hölle verdammt werden, Wiederkehr als menschliches Wesen oder als niederes Tier. In der jüdisch-christlichen Überlieferung dagegen spielte das Hakenkreuz keine Rolle.
"In old-Indian mythology, the Swastika - as the cross of hooks is called there (note they are only referring to the *similarly shaped* symbol which is why they mention the "cross of hooks" in this context) - counts as the symbol of complete life: radiating out of the life centre, the 4 arms symbolise the possibilities of human development/evolution: to become God, to become damned in hell, to return as a human being or as lower animal."
Note how the only time the word Swastika/Svastika is used in the actual German text it refers only to the Indian Dharmic symbol and not the nazi symbol which is the Hakenkreuz.


Gegen Ende des 19. Jahrhunderts gab es etliche Historiker, die aus der großen Verbreitung des Hakenkreuzes auf einen gemeinsamen kulturellen Ursprung schlossen. Demnach wäre das Hakenkreuz das Symbol einer frühen im indischen Raum angesiedelten Hochkultur - der "Arier" - gewesen, die sich von dort aus fast in die ganze Welt verbreitet hätte. Diese unzutreffende These von einer "arischen" Ursprungskultur war bereits zur damaligen Zeit umstritten.

Dennoch wurde im Kaiserreich in völkisch-nationalistischen Kreisen die Theorie von einer arischen Herrenrasse populär, deren legitime Nachfolger die Germanen, und damit insbesondere auch das deutsche Volk, seien. Das Hakenkreuz wurde so zum Bekenntnissymbol für Volkstum und Kampf gegen eine vermeintlich jüdisch-christliche Überfremdung. Zahlreiche Splittergruppen und völkisch-antisemitische Zeitschriften verbreiteten ihre Ideologie unter dem Zeichen des Hakenkreuzes. Besondere Bedeutung hatte die in München nach dem 1. Weltkrieg gegründete Thule-Gesellschaft. Benannt nach einem sagenhaften Land im Norden, fanden sich hier militante Antisemiten und Gegner der Weimarer Republik zusammen. Die Thule-Gesellschaft setzte ganz auf das Hakenkreuz als Vereinssymbol. Ihre Versammlungsräume waren mit Hakenkreuzen geschmückt und jeder Versammlungsteilnehmer trug eine Bronzenadel, die auf einem Schild ein von zwei Speeren durchbrochenes Hakenkreuz zeigten. Die Mitglieder grüßten sich mit "Heil und Sieg". Zahlreiche spätere NS-Führer waren in der Thule-Gesellschaft aktiv oder waren Gäste. So Rudolf Heß, der "Stellvertreter des Führers", Alfred Rosenberg, NS-Theoretiker und Herausgeber des "Völkischen Beobachters", und Gottfried Feder, der das Wirtschaftsprogramm der frühen NSDAP formulierte. Für Hitler selbst ist keine direkte Verbindung zur Thule-Gesellschaft nachweisbar. Sicher aber war ihm das Hakenkreuz als völkisches Symbol durch seine Vertrauensleute in der Thule und durch Zeitschriften bekannt. Insbesondere Rudolf Heß dürfte hier eine herausragende Rolle gespielt haben. Als eine Art Privatsekretär Hitlers in der Frühzeit der NSDAP hatte er großen Einfluss auf den Parteivorsitzenden.


Das Hakenkreuz als NS-Kampfsymbol

Der NS-Bewegung gelang es in der Weimarer Zeit das Hakenkreuz so sehr als ihr eigenes Symbol zu vereinnahmen, daß "Hakenkreuzler" und "Nationalsozialisten" zu austauschbaren Begriffen wurden.
"The NS movement managed to make the Cross-of-Hooks so much their own symbol in the Weimar period that Hakenkreuz-ists and Nationalsocialists/Nazis became interchangeable terms."
(Note the implication: if the word that the nazis had used/popularised had been "Swastika", then the nazis would not have been called hakenkreuzler. But they *were * called hakenkreuzler, which could only be if they were named after the word they and other Germans used for their symbol: hakenkreuz.)

Dazu trug auch die plakative und einheitliche Präsentation in den Farben schwarz, weiß und rot bei. Hitler selbst beanspruchte für sich, diese Gestaltung entwickelt zu haben: "Die Frage der neuen Flagge, d.h. ihr Aussehen, beschäftigte mich damals sehr stark. (...) Ich selbst hatte unterdes nach unzähligen Versuchen eine endgültige Form niedergelegt; eine Fahne aus rotem Grundtuch mit einer weißen Scheibe und in deren Mitte ein schwarzes Hakenkreuz." So Hitler in "Mein Kampf".
(Aha, this bit actually quotes from Hitler's Mein Kampf)
'Hitler in "Mein Kampf": "The questions about the new flag, that is, its look, involved me heavily at the time. (...) I myself had, after countless requests, fixed a final form; a flag of red base-cloth with a white circle and in its centre a black HAKENKREUZ."'
(Hitler in his own German words in Mein Kampf calls it hakenkreuz.)


Die Farbgebung selbst hatte hohen Symbol- und Wiedererkennungswert: Rot war traditionell die Farbe der Arbeiterbewegung, Weiß stand für das konservativ-nationalistische Bürgertum und das Hakenkreuz war bereits als völkisches und antisemitisches Zeichen fest etabliert. Hitler war sich dessen bewusst, wie er ebenfalls in "Mein Kampf" deutlich macht: "Im Rot sehen wir den sozialen Gedanken der Bewegung, im Weiß den nationalistischen, im Hakenkreuz die Mission des Kampfes für den Sieg des arischen Menschen und (...) den Sieg des Gedankens der schaffenden Arbeit, die selbst ewig antisemitisch war und antisemitisch sein wird." Am 7. August 1920 wurde auf einer Tagung in Salzburg dieser Entwurf zum offiziellen Banner der NSDAP erklärt.
(And again - more of Hitler's own words in Mein kampf:)
'The colour-scheme itself was highly symbolic and ~recognisable: red was the traditional colour of the workers movement, white was for the conservative-nationalist middle class and the Hakenkreuz was already strongly established as a folkish and anti-semitic sign. Hitler was himself conscious of this, as he also makes clear in "Mein Kampf": "In red we see the social thought of the movement, in white the nationalists, in the HAKENKREUZ (we see) the mission of the fight for the victory of the arischen/oryan people(s) and (...) the victory of creative labour's thoughts (underlined bit: yuck translation; that's probably not it - sorry, I need more context; or better yet, ask someone else) that ever was and will be anti-semitic."'

Die Propaganda der Nationalsozialisten in der Weimarer Republik - im Jargon der Nationalsozialisten "Kampfzeit" genannt - sorgte für eine ständige Präsenz des Hakenkreuzes in der Öffentlichkeit: Veranstaltungsräume wurden mit Flaggen geschmückt, auf Straßenumzügen immer die Hakenkreuzflagge mitgeführt, Wahlplakate zeigten das Hakenkreuz und marschierende SA-Kolonnen trugen auffällige rote Hakenkreuzbinden am Arm. 1930 konnte Hitler triumphieren: "Und es ist uns das Wunder beschieden worden, daß dieses Symbol, das vor elf Jahren nur eine Handvoll Menschen kannten, heute der ganzen Nation vorangetragen wird."


Das Hakenkreuz im Dritten Reich
Hakenkreuzflagge
Zivilflagge des Dritten Reichs (1933–1945)
Mit der Machtübernahme durch die NSDAP wurde das Parteisymbol im Einparteienstaat nach und nach zum Staatssymbol. Zunächst gegen den Willen vieler Gemeinden wurden bereits Anfang 1933 öffentliche Gebäude und Rathäuser mit Hakenkreuzen beflaggt. Vor allem in Süddeutschland war man nur ungern bereit, regionalspezifische Flaggen, etwa bei Maifeiern, aufzugeben. Die Hakenkreuzbeflaggung wurde jedoch vielfach gewaltsam durch den Einsatz der SA durchgesetzt. Offiziell wurde das Hakenkreuz zunächst nur zur gleichberechtigen Staatsflagge neben der schwarz-weiß-roten des Kaiserreiches. Die schwarz-rot-goldene Fahne, die für die demokratische Bewegung in Deutschland seit 1848 stand, wurde verboten. In der öffentlichen Präsenz dominierte das Hakenkreuz aber bald. Am 15. September 1935 wurde mit dem "Reichsflaggengesetz" das Hakenkreuz die alleinige Reichsflagge. Der traditionelle Reichsadler wurde mit einem Hakenkreuz ergänzt. Nicht nur Parteistellen, sondern alle staatlichen und kommunalen Gebäude waren jetzt durch das Hakenkreuz gekennzeichnet, amtlicher Schriftverkehr trug grundsätzlich das NS-Symbol. Zusätzlich war die Bevölkerung an nationalen Feiertagen verpflichtet, Häuser und Geschäfte mit dem Hakenkreuz zu schmücken.


Besonders bei großen Parteiveranstaltungen, wie den Reichsparteitagen in Nürnberg wurden Aufmarschplätze und Gebäude aufwändig mit Hakenkreuzen beflaggt. Auch in den Alltag der "Volksgenossen" drang das Hakenkreuz immer weiter vor: Kinos wurden bei vielen Filmveranstaltungen mit Hakenkreuzen beflaggt, Volkstheater und Vergnügungen aller Art, die häufig von NS-Organisationen durchgeführt wurden, zeigten das Hakenkreuz und in vielen Schulen begann der Tag mit dem Hissen des Hakenkreuzbanners. Selbst Alltagsgegenstände bis hin zu Lampions, Weihnachtsbaumspitzen, Medaillien und sogar Spielzeug für Kinder trugen das Hakenkreuz. Kitschpostkarten aus Ferienorten zeigten das Hakenkreuz als aufgehende Sonne.

Anhänger wie Gegner des Nationalsozialismus sollten durch diese optische Überwältigung den Eindruck von unbesiegbarer Stärke des Nationalsozialismus bekommen.


Das Hakenkreuz als Weltanschauungssymbol

Der Nationalsozialismus war seinem Selbstverständnis nach nicht nur eine politische Organisation. Man verstand sich als "Weltanschauung", die das Denken und Handeln der Menschen von Grund auf umgestalten wollte. Nationalsozialismus war in diesem Sinne eine Idee, ein Glaube, eine neue Form der Religion. Hitler und die NS-Führer wurden zu Repräsentanten und Verkünder eines neuen Glaubens, der über Generationen weiter getragen werden sollte. Das Hakenkreuz wurde dadurch in seiner Bedeutung weiter überhöht. Es stand jetzt nach NS-Verständnis als Symbol für diesen höheren Glauben.Partei, Staat und selbst Hitler wurden in ihrem Machtanspruch dadurch legitimiert, dass sie sich als Diener dieser vermeintlich höheren Idee präsentierten: In den Worten von Robert Ley, Führer der "Deutschen Arbeitsfront" (DAF): "Wir vertreten das Licht und die Sonne, das Hakenkreuz. Das Hakenkreuz ist die Sonne. Alles andere, das sind Mächte der Finsternis und der Dunkelheit".
Another primary source of the time:
'In the words of Robert Ley, Leader of the German Workers Front (DAF): "We represent the light and the sun, the Hakenkreuz. The Hakenkreuz is the sun. Everything else - those are powers of darkness and gloom."'

Symbolisch kommt dies im propagandistischen Bild des Bannerträgers zum Ausdruck, das im Dritten Reich in immer neuen Variationen von der Propaganda verbreitet wird. In Propagandafilmen wie "Hans Westmar - einer von vielen", "SA-Mann Brand" oder "Hitlerjunge Quex" werden NS-Aktivisten als Verkünder der neuen Idee gezeigt, die für ihre Flagge notfalls auch bereit sind zu sterben. Im Refrain des offiziellen HJ-Liedes heißt es: "Unsere Fahne flattert uns voran, die Fahne ist mehr als der Tod." In gleichem Sinn heißt es im Refrain des Arbeitsdienstliedes "Heil Deutschland": "Hakenkreuzfahnen / schwarz, weiß und rot / grüßen und mahnen / seid getreu bis in den Tod." Auch Hitler selbst wird auf Postkarten und Plakaten immer wieder als Bannerträger gezeigt, der die Hakenkreuzflagge seiner Bewegung voranträgt.
(About the propaganda films that were spreading the nonsense about. Has words of OFFICIAL song in German - mentioning Hakenkreuz.)
'... the Nazi activists ... were shown as being willing to die for their flag if necessary. The chorus of the official Hitler Youth song goes: "Our flag flutters before us, the flag is (worth) more than death." Similar in meaning is the chorus of the Labour Services (?) song "Hail Germany": "HAKENKREUZ flags; black, white and red; greet/salute (it) and remember; be true until death."'

Verbot des Hakenkreuzes

Nach der Besetzung Deutschlands verbot 1945 der Alliierte Kontrollrat mit der NSDAP und ihren Organisationen auch die Verwendung von Hakenkreuz und anderen NS-Symbolen. In der Bundesrepublik Deutschland verbietet § 86 des Strafgesetzbuches die "Verwendung von Kennzeichen verfassungsfeindlicher Organe", darunter auch das Hakenkreuz. Ausgenommen sind lediglich Darstellungen im wissenschaftlichen Bereich und zur verfassungsgemäßen politischen Aufklärungsarbeit, also beispielsweise in wissenschaftlichen Buchpublikationen.

Von neonazistischen Organisationen wird jedoch immer wieder versucht, dieses Verbot zu ignorieren oder zu umgehen, indem das Hakenkreuz in verfremdeter oder nur angedeuteter Form gezeigt wird.

Autor: Bernd Kleinhans Diese E-Mail-Adresse ist gegen Spambots geschützt! Sie müssen JavaScript aktivieren, damit Sie sie sehen können.


Literatur

Goodrick-Clarke, Nicholas: Die okkulten Wurzeln des Nationalsozialismus, 2. Aufl. Graz 2000

Gilbhard, Hermann: Die Thule-Gesellschaft - Vom okkulten Mummenschanz zum Hakenkreuz, München 1994
(Note: German book, German title. Uses Hakenkreuz for the oryanist Thule Society's symbol.)

Heller, Steven: The Swastika. Symbol beyond Redemption, New York 2000
(English book, English title.
And note the title: instead of using the German word Hakenkreuz for the nazi symbol being referred to, they are using "Swastika" - the Dharmic term in Samskritam - for the shape and then they speak of it being beyond redemption.)


Puschner, Uwe: Die völkische Bewegung im wilhelminischen Kaiserreich. Sprache, Rasse, Religion, Darmstadt 2001

Quinn, Malcolm: The Swastika. Constructing the Symbol, London und New York 1994
(English book, English title again.
Hindus constructed the Swastika symbol.
In another part of the world, removed from Hindu mental space,

nazis and the christoconditioned Oryan "Thule Society" used a symbol called the Hakenkreuz.
Look how the English language title once more ties the two to each other. On purpose)
Would request all Hindus here in future to refer to the nazi symbol as "Hakenkreuz", until we find any exception to the indications given above (that is, if and until we find that it was called something other than "Hakenkreuz" in nazi Germany).

Pronunciation is easy:
0. Das in Das Hakenkreuz as in the English verb does. (Now, it's an 's' at the end, don't be all American and say doezzzz.)

1. Ha in Das Hakenkreuz as in hat

2. The en in Das Hakenkreuz as in "an" in "an apple". It's not like in "Anne apple", but the unstressed "There's an apple".

Now prefix the k to it, to get: Das Hakenkreuz

3. The eu in German is pronounced as "oi". E.g. like when you go "Oi, you there." It's a very short o in "oi".

4. And the z in German is generally "ts". (Stress the ssss so they know you are speaking German and not saying the English z.)

5. So now the kreuz in Das Hakenkreuz sounds like kroitss.

And this is important: it's a throaty 'r' in modern German. (60s and 70s German rolled it closer to the front/middle of the mouth - this can be your back-up plan.)
- Don't roll it like the Irish with their "girrrrrrl".
- Don't ignore it like many Australians do, who say something closer to "sista" than "sister".
- Don't soften it into invisibility like the English "r" (who tend to pronounce "it's a girl" like "It's a guhl" and say "forget it" as "fuh-get it").
- Americans have no real 'r' either but unlike the Brits who have close to nothing there, Americans insert a special sound in place of what we read on paper as an 'r'. Don't make that sound either.
The German "kr" is like clearing your throat, it's guttural here. Like you just tore something. Sounds pretty unattractive until you get used to it and then forget about it.


Keep practising the dreadful words "Das Hakenkreuz", until it rolls off your tongue like you're a native German-speaker.

So now, when some twat calls it a Swastika, you say:
"Get it right. It is called das *Hakenkreuz*. That's what the nazis and other Germans called it."

And, if you want, you can memorise those idiot nazi nationalist song lines and quotes from mein kampf and then rattle it off to them as proof. (I wouldn't. But you might want to.)

And if they give excuses like "Swastika is the *English* name for it", just tell them that you weren't aware that the English were also nazis flying the nazi symbol - else why do they have a separate word for it?

Then: say that Swastika is Samskritam and the name of a Dharmic (Hindu, Buddhist) symbol that is unrelated to the Hakenkreuz except for being of a similar basic shape.
And that since Swastika is NOT an English word either, and since English is a Germanic language, they should sooner opt for the German word "Hakenkreuz" itself, than reach for a word in distant Samskritam, if they're going to be using foreign terms anyway. Especially since the item being referred to is the *German* nazi symbol and not the Dharmic Religious Symbol in Samskritam.
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brihaspati
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by brihaspati »

RayC,
I neither said I "liked" it, nor that "I did not like it". I simply asked if you were ready to be identified with "Hindu fanatics" as they are the only group recognized by established and "prefessional" intellectuals to be "Nazis" in the context of India. The "Sieg Heil" and "Heil Hitler" is universally recognized now to be unique part of the Nazi repertoire.
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by brihaspati »

Shiv wrote
Brihaspati - I shall now use the term fractal recursivity in its original sense and not in the sense that it has generally been used on this forum (primarily by ME!!) - i.e as a way of showing how the colonized acquires the mind of the colonizer.

The "original" fractal recursivity refers to the phenomenon in which macroscopic differences fade as one enters the microscopic arena where details are mirrored and mimicked in a process that is repeated yet again as you dig deeper into sub-details and sub-sub details.

The "macroscopic" Indic characteristics that we like to talk about appear to be in stark contrast to macroscopic appearance of the Abrahamic faiths and the cultures they fostered. And because of the vast gulf between the macroscopic appearances, there is a tendency for us to think that if we use reductionism and try and dig microscopically into "core principles" one might find that the Indic practices arose from superior core principles and superior ideals while the Abrahamic faiths arose from faulty premises.
Shivji,
I think you are only looking at one half of the process and therefore finding it inadequate. You are looking at "going down" into ever finer combing of grades and microscopic appearances. If you look at the example I used from Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, my reasoning goes down to the microscopic not to model it as a perfect miniaturization of the macro. It goes down to that level, keeping the possiility all the time behind in the background that the "macro" could essentially be completely distinct from the "micro". The macro - as the principle, in my framework is not equivalent to the "micro" up to scale invariance. They are simply not taken to be identical.

Even in the narrower framework of that example, we can see the difficulty in making the macro and micro fractally "identical". If I use the rescaling of the situation between husband and wife into society as a whole - the closest analogue will be a leadership capable of enforcing its will on society. Unwillingness of the woman to conceive will be paralleled into society's reluctance to repoduce the next generation subscribing to the parent generation society's characteristics.

If you think carefully, in this micro-macro pair, the same dilemmas and decision problems exist. Whether the leader should or can "coerce" or not! It still in itself does not give any rule to decide one way or the other. This is why for me the "macro" was the rule - the decision-making principle that breaks the dilemma and gives a possibly axiomatic basis indepndent of the phenomenon on which that principle is going to be applied. Thus for me, if I accept "quest for and preservation of knowledge" as the fundamental aim - then everything that helps to achieve that aim in the given context and situation is to be undertaken in priority over others that do not help.

Thus when I am searching for the core in the form of fundamental decision making rules and concepts, I am looking at "microscopic" to derive the "macro" that was used to derive the "micro" - but not modelling them as fractally identical.
I believe that this is wrong. All ancient faiths rose out of the need to explain or cope with the same problems that all humans face - sorrow, disease, death, natural calamity, hunger, disability, infidelity, deceit, subjugation, fear, loneliness and the power of incompetents over others.

If we "cut the crap" and look down to the very origins of the Abrahamic faiths - they were solutions that were mooted for a particular society at a particular time in history. No more. What we see today as the powerful structure of the Abrahamic faiths is merely a mindless historic extrapolation of those rules imposed by military victories on huge areas of the world.
This can get very complex and not so straightforward. The problem is that such solutions do also depend on "values". The very same physical, geographical, historical experience and situation can give rise to different "solutions" depending what is considered "optimal" and desirable. For early Abrahamic movements, any element that did not provide them with immediate biological wealth as they understood such wealth to be, and knowledge that helped in coercive measures - weapons and technology of war - was valueless. So they went out and systematically destroyed libraries of pre-Islamics or their educational and research apparatus. Of course there are also indications that they preserved parts of such libraries for their own use - but which they most likely thought would be useful for war. For Christian missionaries who burnt Meso-american manuscripts or tortured to death native "intellectuals", the potential value of "native" knowledge was zero - or perhaps even negative.

Sometimes solutions can get trapped into a local optimum - which by its very definition lead to a static equilibrium. Once the system gets trapped into such a local optimum, it will not of itself go out to find the global optimum which would have yielded a higher potential value given the same situation and starting point. Just because Abrahamics have trapped large parts of the world in a low-level equilibrium (low level if we accept the criteria of ever increasing knowledge and control over environment) does not mean that we have to allow large parts of the world to remain trapped there.

Indic cultures too developed initially as explanations or solutions to those same human problems. But there was no imposition of "one size fits all" solutions but a continuous exploration of all possible solutions.

That is why going back to the core will ultimately get us nowhere - because at the core everyone claims that it all came out of good intentions. The problem is not the core differences but the macroscopic manifestations that we see today.
You have identified the essential feature of the "Indic" - but probaly drawn a different conclusion from mine. I would rather recognize that this "continuous" exploration of all possible solutions is a way that mathematicians will immediately recognize as the process of small "perturbations" to shake the system out from getting trapped in local "optima". This is a robust method in difficult optimization processes with unpredictable or dynamically changing "optimizing function".

But recognizing the dynamics of the method of arriving at the solution does not mean accepting that there is no optimizing function at all. In our case this means erasing the reality that optimizing functions have been based on "values" - which we sought to maximize through our explorations. You are equating the apparent flexibility shown in the search for the optimum with the non-existence of the function to be optimized - which in turn must have been based on values and criteria.
In some ways the Western solution appears to be good. The Western solution is to downgrade religion - even the Abrahamic religions and bring them under the control of a common law. That common law constitutes the "core ideas" of the Western nation in question. The downside of such abrogation of religion is the mindless pursuit of personal happiness in the absence of religion leading to suicidal societies whose numbers go down as people seek material wealth over the sacrifices and sorrow that family life inevitably brings.
The west needed to downgrade religion because the Abrahamic religion it inherited was an obstruction towards free exploration of knowledge - the key towards further expansion of western society at the end of the medieval. The common law aspect is a transitional aspect - needed to crossover from tribal societies into empires. But the fact remains that when the Arahamic values were trashed out of tactical necessity to weaken the hold of the overall religious power bases - only the observable results of the quest for knowledge were pursued. No corresponding "principle" or "core" appropriate for this free exploration of knowledge was identified or created. This was why, material and concrete knowledge could not create "values" or decision making rules in choice of action by humans.

We can see the particular sterility of "science" in producing "decision making rules" when it comes to society. Mere flexibility of exploration does not yield an optimum or a solution. We need an optimizing function, a "surface" denoting highs and lows of desirable "values" upheld by that society.

In the absence of non-material "value", science will move towards fashioning an optimizing function that is observable and quantifiable - just like entities it deals with. This typically becomes money - the most freely exchangeable commodity concretely observable and quantifiable. This is what you are pointing out in the case of western societies.

The fundamental thing that we should recognize is that no society can function without such "optimizing" functions that produces rules of engagement and behaviour and actions. The very fact that the general low level of "culture" (taken from human potential viewpoint - the free utilization of the birthrights of all humans - power to think and express) in the Islamic persists, and the "west" has been forced to opt for a "money" based social optimizer, shows that human societies cannot do without such fundamental "principles" that assign values to be optimized.

India is in a dilemma - and is sitting up RayC's gum tree. India has tried to replace religion with a common law but has done a half and half job of that. Once again, the modern Indian state, faced with the need to make a firm "this way or that way" decision, has behaved in the Indic fashion and has tried to reach a compromise in which nothing is thrown away and nothing is taken up fully. Modern Indian laws are just one more set of laws that you have the option of following. The behavior of Indians reflects that.
The modern Indian state is in a dilemma is because it has tried to mimic the "west" but did not have sufficient "money" until very recently to serve as the potential "optimizer".
I do not want to thwart you in your quest for a core and for that reason I will (attempt to) leave this thread now. My thought process sees things in such a different way that I will only be destructive I apologise for any hurt feelings I may have caused to anyone. I think my own thoughts about what India looks like to me need to go in a book that I have been threatening to write for over a decade. Only problem is - India is so big that I am spending my entire life learning.
Your thoughts are most valuable. The more you disagree with me, the greater is the chance for me subject my own thoughts to the "sharpener". Please do continue, if you can!
RayC
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by RayC »

brihaspati wrote:RayC,
I neither said I "liked" it, nor that "I did not like it". I simply asked if you were ready to be identified with "Hindu fanatics" as they are the only group recognized by established and "prefessional" intellectuals to be "Nazis" in the context of India. The "Sieg Heil" and "Heil Hitler" is universally recognized now to be unique part of the Nazi repertoire.
I am neither a Hindu fanatic since I have no truck with the religion or any religion since all religions only divide humanity, nor am I a votary for Germans.

I also do not care what is 'universally recognised'. That is agenda driven! It does not impress me the least! I am what I am!

I analyse the basics!

The only area where I may appear irrational is when it is about but my nation!

I would still say victory to my Nation, whatever the language it require me to say so!

If that is incorrect, then I am guilty.


Bande Mataram!

Jai Hind!

Is that wrong?

I don't care a damn of all this Hinduvta nonsense.

I see life and what is good for my nation!

We are all ONE!!

I do agree my syntax is not what I would have liked to use in polite company and may appear barrack worthy. I am sorry if it hurts you all. I, however, am deeply disturbed by the religious divide that has crept into our country as also the social divides.

My people (yes, those who I commanded, are dying by the day. It pains me!)
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by rkirankr »

Is religion a major factor in forming a core?
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by Hari Seldon »

rkirankr wrote:Is religion a major factor in forming a core?
Depends on the worldview underlying the religions in question, IMO.

The "One and only one G_d, one book, one path" orthodoxies do not mix well with the Indic, the native Eastern or other Nature-heavy belief systems.

Faiths can be different but as long as the universalist message is subscribed to (on the basis of which no one can be denied heaven/successful afterlife solely due to religion), they do not IMHO impede the nation forming core.

Again, strictly IMHO and all that.
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by Sanku »

Shiv's posts are a nice collection of "what is thought to be Indic core, but on examination is not really the Indic core"
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by SwamyG »

Brihaspati ji: Your posts draws me to the concepts of Sruti & Smriti. Plus Dharma. How certain things stand the test of time, and how certain things (have to) change as per time.
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by rkirankr »

Hari Seldon wrote:
rkirankr wrote:Is religion a major factor in forming a core?
Depends on the worldview underlying the religions in question, IMO.

The "One and only one G_d, one book, one path" orthodoxies do not mix well with the Indic, the native Eastern or other Nature-heavy belief systems.

Faiths can be different but as long as the universalist message is subscribed to (on the basis of which no one can be denied heaven/successful afterlife solely due to religion), they do not IMHO impede the nation forming core.

Again, strictly IMHO and all that.
Ok. Here goes one more, Can an Indian core be defined without religion as is being attempted currently by so called secularism?
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by svinayak »

rkirankr wrote: Ok. Here goes one more, Can an Indian core be defined without religion as is being attempted currently by so called secularism?
Impossible!
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by Prem »

Can we recognize India Core as trait/phenomenon/doctrine to preserve , sustain and promotion of the cultural,social and spiritual experiences, values and principles discoverd and practiced in Geographical India since ancient time? The ones working against opposing the efforts are adversaries and belong not to the core.
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by SwamyG »

rkirankr wrote: Ok. Here goes one more, Can an Indian core be defined without religion as is being attempted currently by so called secularism?
Yes. Because the concept of religion from the Western perspective is different the concept of Dharma that is talked about in the sub-continent. Dharma has many components; and it can be sliced and diced for investigations from various angles. The Socio-religious angle is one such. The gamut of thoughts in our history spans vast subjects - divinity is just one of them.
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by Umrao Das »

Secular has different meaning in Indian and western context.

Secular in in Indian interpretation means all religions are on equal footing.
In the west Secular means Atheist.

Religion is like Party manifesto
Dharma is like constitution of the country
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by bell »

Very good points about the hakenkreuz in Germany called a swastika. Another distinction that will assist is to point out that, although an ancient symbol, the German Hakenkreuz (hooked cross) was turned 45 degrees from the horizontal and was always pointed in the S-direction, and it was done deliberately to use it as crossed S-letters for "socialism" by the National Socialist German Workers Party, as shown in the work of the symbologist Dr. Rex Curry. Similar alphabetical symbolism was used under the NSDAP for the "SS" division, the "SA," the "NSV," et cetera and is still visible on the streets today in the Volkswagen VW logo. The use of the term swastika for the German symbol is, in a sense, a racist cover-up, where another "race" is tarnished for the German symbol in an effort to cover-up the fact that it was a German cross symbol and to cover up its use for the political dogma of socialism.
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by Umrao Das »

symbologist Dr. Rex Curry
Any symbolism in that Name? Rex Curry is King Curry?
or is it
Rx Curry ----> take curry

{The symbol "Rx" is usually said to stand for the Latin word "recipe" meaning "to take."}
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by RayC »

bell wrote:Very good points about the hakenkreuz in Germany called a swastika. Another distinction that will assist is to point out that, although an ancient symbol, the German Hakenkreuz (hooked cross) was turned 45 degrees from the horizontal and was always pointed in the S-direction, and it was done deliberately to use it as crossed S-letters for "socialism" by the National Socialist German Workers Party, as shown in the work of the symbologist Dr. Rex Curry. Similar alphabetical symbolism was used under the NSDAP for the "SS" division, the "SA," the "NSV," et cetera and is still visible on the streets today in the Volkswagen VW logo. The use of the term swastika for the German symbol is, in a sense, a racist cover-up, where another "race" is tarnished for the German symbol in an effort to cover-up the fact that it was a German cross symbol and to cover up its use for the political dogma of socialism.
Thanks Bell.

The VW is interesting note!

I am educated!
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Re: Indian Core: Ideas and descriptions-I

Post by Umrao Das »

not yet, its continous process some say WIP
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