Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Nov 2009 21:34

well in a james bond movie as the struggling C130 roars over the afpak border, he does sit inside the jeep, trail out its parachute and lands safely as the jeep gets pulled back. he then drives to peshawar or karachi per a road sign.

very tfta and stiff upper lip onlee.

prasadha · Post by **prasadha** » 05 Nov 2009 21:38

Hi

Can somebody ID whether this is tank-ex? If so, are the sloping armour a new addition. Is this a new version by any chance?

http://www.picturesindia.com/media/occa ... 000093.jpg

Thanks

Prasad

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 05 Nov 2009 22:25

^^^^^ It is indeed. I have already posted its pic in the misc. pic thread.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 05 Nov 2009 22:32

tejas wrote:^^^^^ It is indeed. I have already posted its pic in the misc. pic thread.

nice pic... was there an article along with it??? If so could you post it too???

neeraj · Post by **neeraj** » 05 Nov 2009 22:46

Does the full tech transfer for T90 include engines as well.
Is the tech transfer enough for making T-90 from raw materials or do we still end up relying for parts from Russia.
Thanks

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 05 Nov 2009 22:56

Sorry Bala, no article with the pic.

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 05 Nov 2009 23:27

Is is Arjun formation during Yuddhabhyas 2009?
look at 1.53

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 06 Nov 2009 00:19

sameer_shelavale wrote:Is is Arjun formation during Yuddhabhyas 2009?
look at 1.53

Those look like BMPs to me. Definitely not Arjuns.

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 06 Nov 2009 00:38

nachiket wrote:Those look like BMPs to me. Definitely not Arjuns.

Looks BMP to me too, does not look like even any tank. Barrel looks thine.

Ankit

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 06 Nov 2009 08:03

rakall wrote:
AdityaM wrote:RayC, When a vehicle like a bmp/tank is paradropped, are the vehicle operators sitting inside, or do they jump separately and join the vehicle once on ground?

Not so fast saar..Soviets did precisely that (Low level airdrop, crewed BMP)! Please google 'REACTAVR'

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 06 Nov 2009 23:06

sameer_shelavale wrote:Is is Arjun formation during Yuddhabhyas 2009?
look at 1.53

That's definitely BMP's... no doubts about it...

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 07 Nov 2009 01:25

BMP

Arjun

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Nov 2009 01:34

most APCs/tanks look similar from a distance, not talking of this picture where the profile is clear.
one way to be sure is counting the number of wheels.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 07 Nov 2009 01:47

Only the arjun has 7, the T-55s, T-72, PT-76 and the BMPs have 6.

PS I've used this formula in the early days, now of course there are so many more things one can recognize.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Nov 2009 01:52

Gagan wrote: PS I've used this formula in the early days, now of course there are so many more things one can recognize.

usually not from a distance.

if it's close enough it's usually obvious, you don't even know which particular feature did the identification. you just look and know.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 07 Nov 2009 10:22

A Quick Guide for Differentiation.

The following should be seen:

(a) Size and shape. The APC will be smaller than the tank and will have a flat rear in the hull. The turret will also be small.

(b) Turret. Tanks will normally have a overhang at the rear of the turret.

(c) Number of bogey wheels.

(d) Length of the gun.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 07 Nov 2009 20:47

Gagan wrote:Arjun

Gagan Sir,
Where did you get this image??? Its great..

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Nov 2009 22:11

how about this one ??

negi · Post by **negi** » 08 Nov 2009 04:42

Thats pretty neat work; whoever did this please do the orthographic projections as well as a wire frame model based on the above drawing (may be these were inputs for the above drawing but I then I could be wrong) .We can then use the same technique for most of the indigenous platforms and use them on BR webpages.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 11 Nov 2009 23:45

http://www.thehindu.com/2009/07/20/stor ... 160400.htm

...

This was disclosed to reporters here on Sunday by Saroj Vinayek, Director-General, Ordnance Factories, and Chairperson, Ordnance Factory Board, after inaugurating the factory’s silver jubilee celebrations here. She said the factory was annually producing 125 ICVs, also called as BMP-IIs. Their number would be enhanced as the Army sought 200 ICVs each year.

...

We are in some good shape viz-a-viz Armour today due to local production of T-72 and BMP-II. IMHO this production run was not under license from Russia. Thank fully mine protected vehicles are also being produced locally.

Though this production could easily have been Abhay.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Nov 2009 00:03

Aditya G wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/2009/07/20/stor ... 160400.htm

...

This was disclosed to reporters here on Sunday by Saroj Vinayek, Director-General, Ordnance Factories, and Chairperson, Ordnance Factory Board, after inaugurating the factory’s silver jubilee celebrations here. She said the factory was annually producing 125 ICVs, also called as BMP-IIs. Their number would be enhanced as the Army sought 200 ICVs each year.

...
We are in some good shape viz-a-viz Armour today due to local production of T-72 and BMP-II. IMHO this production run was not under license from Russia. Thank fully mine protected vehicles are also being produced locally.

Though this production could easily have been Abhay.

That increase in BMP-II production is likely to be in line with news of raising of new Mechanized Regiment Units and conversion of more Infantry Divisions to RAPID modification.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Nov 2009 04:15

X-posted..

gandharva wrote:Indian Army to deploy more troops along Arunachal border

India is quietly beefing up its defences along the China border in Arunachal Pradesh, even as it publicly downplays the growing diplomatic spat with Beijing over the Dalai Lama’s visit to the state.

The Indian Army will deploy its new 15,000-strong 56 Division in Arunachal, which China claims as its own, within four weeks, a senior defence official told HT, requesting anonymity.

Simultaneously, it has put out a Request for Information (RFI) for acquiring 300 lightweight tanks that can be deployed in the North East and Jammu & Kashmir.

The purpose is to leave nothing to chance, notwithstanding the show of bonhomie between Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and his Chinese counterpart Wen Jiabao at their October 25 meeting in Thailand.

A second division will be deployed in Arunachal Pradesh in the next 12-18 months, the official added.

The army’s RFI states the light tanks should be capable of destroying bunkers and soft-skin vehicles up to 3,000m away and should have armour-piercing anti-tank guided missiles and anti-aircraft machine guns.

The RFI, which is in HT’s possession, also stipulates these tanks should “have protection against nuclear, chemical and biological warfare”.

In recent months, India activated three airfields along the 646 km Line of Actual Control (LAC) with China, last used during the 1962 war with China. The army and the Indo-Tibetan Border Police have also stepped up patrolling along the

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Indian-Ar ... 75434.aspx

is there such an animal that can already do all those things or is theis a way to throw a RFP and say waiting for reply?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Nov 2009 04:28

they are not asking for the moon in this case. ability to work in NBC environment is standard capability these days. all the IA's current armoured vehicles can do that.

the other requirement is more interesting. note that it doesn't mention APFSDS rounds as a requirement.
to fire bunker busting rounds (HESH rounds) would require rifled main gun like the arjun, while the technology is not unachievable, I wonder how many designs are in production today.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 12 Nov 2009 04:33

Rahul M wrote: to fire bunker busting rounds (HESH rounds) would require rifled main gun like the arjun,

I always didnt quite get that.

It is logical that to fire HEAT or APFSDS, we *need* a smoothbore (HEAT case because rotation will disrupt the shaped charge and APFSDS because of velocity and fin stabilization--ofcourse slip rings were successfully used), but why does HESH *need* a rifled gun ? It cant be just accuracy, because then does it imply that APFSDS and HEAT can be "less accurate" ?

The Q is simple, with computerized FCS, why cant HESH be fired from a smoothbore ?

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 12 Nov 2009 04:54

rahulm,

weren't you gonna post something about arjun's firing comment from your recent trip ?

negi · Post by **negi** » 12 Nov 2009 05:17

As per Wiki

1.

HESH rounds are thin metal shells filled with plastic explosive and a delayed-action base fuse. On impact, the plastic explosive is "squashed" against the surface of the target, and spreads out to form a disc or "pat" of explosive. A tiny fraction of a second later, the base fuse detonates the explosive, creating a shock wave that, owing to its large surface area and direct contact with the target, is conducted very effectively through the material.

later

2.

The round has good general purpose use being effective against most targets, though the round is generally used at relatively lower velocities because high velocity excessively disperses the pat of explosive

Probably the spin imparted by a rifled barrel helps to achieve '1' (i.e. uniform spread of the the plastic explosive under centrifugal forces) and '2' is again better achieved by employing a rifled barrel (smooth bores impart a high muzzle velocity for same amount of charge propellant).

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Nov 2009 05:20

cy, that's senior rahulm, not me. (in case you mixed up)

anujan, I don't know, may be it can be done with current tech. as for the sabot rounds, I guess
/guesswork alert
the high velocity means that even in case of inaccuracies, the spread at point of impact due to external factors (crosswind etc) won't be appreciable.
/guesswork alert

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 12 Nov 2009 05:48

May be Indian desire for light tanks is for equal footing in N and NE sector wrt Chinese.
PTL02

The main armament is a 100mm high-pressure, low-recoil smoothbore gun developed from the Type 86 towed anti-tank gun. The gun can fire armour piercing fin stabilised discarding sabot (APFSDS) with tungsten core, as well as HEAT and HE rounds, with 30 rounds carried onboard the vehicle. Fire accuracy is attained by a primitive Type 37A light-spot fire control system with night vision and laser rangefinder input.

Another reason for the declining use of HESH rounds is the switch by most armies to smoothbore cannon, since a HESH shell relies upon spin for accuracy.

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 12 Nov 2009 09:25

Regarding the Arjun:

- Noted a change for the better in attitudes towards the Arjun. The sample is the same as 11 months ago. Something has happened since then which is great.

- The suspension is acknowledged as superb.

- The gun accuracy was also spot on. This from a guy who fired the Arjun main gun at Mahajan during trials.

- TI is also up to the mark as also satisfaction with the fire control.

- Crew comfort is best among all tanks in the IA fleet.

Other points. Since I know these people very well, I challenged them (pre-fixed by an "*").

- Width was listed as impediment for carriage on IR. (* We are lucky TSP does not have the Abrams. And if it did, I suspect this would have been solved by now). Response: OK.

- Its not an indigenous tank. (* Which is more indigenous the Arjun or T-90? and the Abrams also is not 100% American). Response:if you think about it this way its pretty good. (* What other way is there to think about it?). Response:Smile.

- DRDO regularly failed on timelines and specifications (* I agree but DRDO is what we got and the question is how do we make it better. Other countries have built their military industrial complexes the hard way over decades. Did the IA partner with DRDO or adopt a stand off user approach. How come the IN is having successes with DRDO?). Response: Deep thought and some nodding. No words.

Some other points:

- The Army wants a western style heavy tank, revise the GSQR at will and all this at TATA - Nano prices. Response: a cheery laugh

- Queried why there were comparative trials for the Arjun but none for the T-90. Response: Nodding and "I see".

- Asked how it was acceptable for the original T-90 with defective TI to be accepted and progressively fixed while Arjun had to be perfect from day 1. Response: same as previous

All in all, it would appear, from my limited interaction, the Arjun is gaining (slow) acceptance The feeling I get is aside from the specificaitions (GSQR) its a leadership issue more then an Arjun per se issue.

On another note, without exception, so far, all the fauji's I have interacted with have been surprised and bewildered at the interest a non fauji is taking and more importantly on the (limited) knowledge during interactions.

Most expect interaction at a very superficial leveland get visibly taken aback as the conversation progresses. Most are happy that a non fauji is taking such interest. A few get upset. Which brings us nicely to the larger issue of fauji- civilian relationships and the expectations from the civilians. I will post later in the Army thread.

Please note: Nothing I I post anywhere is the official view.

negi · Post by **negi** » 12 Nov 2009 09:53

rahulm ji if you don't mind how many IA officers did you question ? Just curious about the sample size.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 12 Nov 2009 09:57

Yahoo says it is APC's, what happened to Abhay then ?

http://www.newkerala.com/nkfullnews-1-148937.html

Indian Army to acquire 100 Armoured Personnel Carriers

Over a period of five years, the Indian Army is looking to add over 500 new APCs to its existing fleet of around 1,500 Russian-origin BMP-I and BMP-Iis, Defence Ministry sources said.

Currently, the Indian Army has 26 mechanised infantry battalions with its APCs having the capability to carry around 10 soldiers each.

Some of the APCs are equipped with missile launchers for firing Anti-Tank Guided Missile (ATGM).

The Army wants its new APCs to be capable of being air-lifted in IAF heavylift aircraft such as the IL-76 and C-130Js to be procured from US in the near future.

The new APCs should also be capable of being carried in Navy's amphibious warships such as the INS Jalashwa and the INS Airavat.

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 12 Nov 2009 09:58

I hope they place order for more Arjuns. At least for Mark II.
Anyway it is nice to read the good change of attitude towards desi products.

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 12 Nov 2009 10:29

A few.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 12 Nov 2009 10:45

This current crop of old fogies from IA needs to retire..

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 12 Nov 2009 11:15

Cybaru wrote:This current crop of old fogies from IA needs to retire..

And replaced by another set who become old fogies in their turn?

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 12 Nov 2009 11:19

Cybaru wrote:This current crop of old fogies from IA needs to retire..

why dont you Join ?

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 12 Nov 2009 12:22

RayC wrote:
Cybaru wrote:This current crop of old fogies from IA needs to retire..
And replaced by another set who become old fogies in their turn?

Absolutely.. Its a broad brush, but what the heck. The old set is too foreign-goodies enamored.. Buy this that and everything else.

Until the new crop of people who have played and nurtured Arjun don't take over, t-90's will continue to be the main MBT's and buy foreign will remain the only mantra.

jai · Post by **jai** » 12 Nov 2009 12:32

On another note, without exception, so far, all the fauji's I have interacted with have been surprised and bewildered at the interest a non fauji is taking and more importantly on the (limited) knowledge during interactions.

This is very common. Youngsters appreciate your taking interest and having some knowledge, older & more senior guys get quiter, till you get them extremely comfortable. All service men are encouraged not to talk or comment on anything defence. In India, everyone takes the official secrets act way too seriously.....including some who should not be.

I have also noticed that many of the IA folks I have interacted with do not seem to have a lot of information on systems in use in other parts of the world. Not sure if this was co-incidental, or in keeping with the "keep quite" ethos of services. Not sure if comparative weapons and equipment is covered in internal training - Seniors can enlighten...RayC sir ?

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 12 Nov 2009 12:36

Nayak wrote:Yahoo says it is APC's, what happened to Abhay then ?

As per reports it was a TD

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 12 Nov 2009 13:42

Absolutely.. Its a broad brush, but what the heck. The old set is too foreign-goodies enamored.. Buy this that and everything else.

Until the new crop of people who have played and nurtured Arjun don't take over, t-90's will continue to be the main MBT's and buy foreign will remain the only mantra.

Noted how the young folks on this forum are all ga ga over foreign weapons and how they should be immediately bought?

Jai,

I agree that many are not concerned about the world military equipment, but those who are assigned to do so, do and it not confined to AHQ!