Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

[Jarita]

A couple of years before while travelling through train I had a chat with a very learned gentleman, who talked in detail about the population game being played, he was very impressed with the theories of Mr. K.R. Malkani. He said that Nawaz Sharif in last 10 years has started a theory of having a soft border with India.

MMS also wants a soft border

[Manish_Sharma]

^^Thanks for the explanation Sanku, but isn't the low voter turnout in mumbai, return of congress to power and lack of reaction + criticism in media/public about recent Besharam-al-shiekh + recent overtures to TSP regarding unconditional talks an evidence that pacifist tendencies are still very much their. Other than this, I was thinking exactly like you that war is the only solution. Sanku I have made a map on Deterrence thread regarding this scenario with TSP, would be great if you can visit and see if there are some mistakes in it.

Abhi_G Thanks for the correction, I am very grateful!

[ashkrishna]

A couple of years before while travelling through train I had a chat with a very learned gentleman, who talked in detail about the population game being played, he was very impressed with the theories of Mr. K.R. Malkani. He said that Nawaz Sharif in last 10 years has started a theory of having a soft border with India.

MMS also wants a soft border

How I wish PVNR was active today....

[RayC]

One must understand war in all its facets to go to war!

[Manish_Sharma]

One must understand war in all its facets to go to war!

Ray my question was regarding a certain move of "population expansion" by expansionist religion. Now what could be the countermove to prevent it? Personally if the people keeping alive tradition of Ashtavakra, Bhagatgeeta or aryabhat are forced to convert some outside culture + religion then I would prefer that we don't exist. It is my personal opinion that our lineage of meditation, enlightenment from Parsvnath, Gautam Budh to J Krishnamurti and Mahrishi Raman has to convert just to survive than it is not worth living just as a different composition of DNA and pigmentation of the skin.
But problem is I can only sit and fantasize, while you have had first hand experience of the war. So would be grateful if you can either show the facets of war or an ALTERNATIVE COUNTERMOVE.
Since the time of Usman's attack from 700 AD we have been only defending or containing somehow, but never taken the war to the enemy camp.

[RayC]

One must understand war in all its facets to go to war!

Ray my question was regarding a certain move of "population expansion" by expansionist religion. Now what could be the countermove to prevent it? Personally if the people keeping alive tradition of Ashtavakra, Bhagatgeeta or aryabhat are forced to convert some outside culture + religion then I would prefer that we don't exist. It is my personal opinion that our lineage of meditation, enlightenment from Parsvnath, Gautam Budh to J Krishnamurti and Mahrishi Raman has to convert just to survive than it is not worth living just as a different composition of DNA and pigmentation of the skin.
But problem is I can only sit and fantasize, while you have had first hand experience of the war. So would be grateful if you can either show the facets of war or an ALTERNATIVE COUNTERMOVE.
Since the time of Usman's attack from 700 AD we have been only defending or containing somehow, but never taken the war to the enemy camp.

That is too intellectual for poor me.

[Jarita]

[quote="ashkrishna
How I wish PVNR was active today....[/quote]


He would have been much more effective if he had a chandragupta to his Chanakya. The italian would not have been able to come to power.
However, in the absence of that he did a great service to the nation.
This country needs the chandragupta-chanakya model (as do most others I guess - Nixon-Kissinger, Obama-Brez et al)
A leader who is attempting to go solo is double trouble e.g., Narendra Modi (at the expense of roars from people)

[ashkrishna]

He would have been much more effective if he had a chandragupta to his Chanakya. The italian would not have been able to come to power.
However, in the absence of that he did a great service to the nation.
This country needs the chandragupta-chanakya model (as do most others I guess - Nixon-Kissinger, Obama-Brez et al)
A leader who is attempting to go solo is double trouble e.g., Narendra Modi (at the expense of roars from people)

But who will fill the "chandraguptan vaccumm" . when has india in recent times even come close to having a chandragupta-chanakya analogue. The notion of MMS-manio coming anywhere close is laughable.

The future indian strategic thinking must be one of superficial idealism coupled with hardcore pragmatism....(aka Shri JJ singh's iron hand-velvet glove thingy)

We have too much of the former and have forgotten that the latter even exists...

[ashkrishna]

Regarding the bangladeshi immigration question here is a small taste of the current GOI thinking....

Some time ago, after the jaipur blasts , when fingers were being pointed at bangladeshi immigrant concentrations, a kangress leader on a popular talk shoe had the gall to say that india cannot hold the 'moral' high ground on questions of illegal immigration as many indian citizens abroad are themsleves illegal immigrants. Thus , we must not forcefully send bangladeshi illegals back [QED]. These descendants of euclid are formulating policy today...

Another talker promptly asked him if indian illegal immigrants were planting bombs in popular tourist spots too...He was remided of the gujarat 'pogrom' and the debate whirlpooled to complete irrelevance.

Such is the nature of our thinking today.

[svinayak]

Regarding the bangladeshi immigration question here is a small taste of the current GOI thinking....

Some time ago, after the jaipur blasts , when fingers were being pointed at bangladeshi immigrant concentrations, a kangress leader on a popular talk shoe had the gall to say that india cannot hold the 'moral' high ground on questions of illegal immigration as many indian citizens abroad are themsleves illegal immigrants. Thus , we must not forcefully send bangladeshi illegals back [QED]. These descendants of euclid are formulating policy today...

Another talker promptly asked him if indian illegal immigrants were planting bombs in popular tourist spots too...He was remided of the gujarat 'pogrom' and the debate whirlpooled to complete irrelevance.

Such is the nature of our thinking today.

Media control and manufactured consent has created false sense of entitlement and false world view.
National awareness, national thought process are deliberately being eroded with news media and education dampening the concept of nationalism. This is part of the social engineering and the above examples are perfect ones.

[ashkrishna]

yes...agreed. Intellectuals peddle their theories as if they were a fruit of perfect logical reasoning. By banging on the table and pointing their fingers after they have finished with their verbal dysentry, they even manage to get applause from the audience. All signs of a concerted effort to manage public opinion. One can see this strategy bearing fruit, where many of my colleagues ( 22-25 yrs) quote rajdeep sardesai as if he were the ultimate authority, fawn over barkha dutt as if she were epitome of fearless inquiry and revere the chindu.

On a side note, my family is closely connected to the hindu news paper (grandpa was former chief reporter), we read that paper only out of emotional attachment and lack of an alternative...utterly compromised.

To quote from a famous tamil movie ...enna koduma da ithu .... (what sort of an atrocity is this!)

[ramana]

He would have been much more effective if he had a chandragupta to his Chanakya. The italian would not have been able to come to power.
However, in the absence of that he did a great service to the nation.
This country needs the chandragupta-chanakya model (as do most others I guess - Nixon-Kissinger, Obama-Brez et al)
A leader who is attempting to go solo is double trouble e.g., Narendra Modi (at the expense of roars from people)

But who will fill the "chandraguptan vaccumm" . when has india in recent times even come close to having a chandragupta-chanakya analogue. The notion of MMS-manio coming anywhere close is laughable.

The future indian strategic thinking must be one of superficial idealism coupled with hardcore pragmatism....(aka Shri JJ singh's iron hand-velvet glove thingy)

We have too much of the former and have forgotten that the latter even exists...

We have to be clear as to how the duo operated. Chanakya was very clear in his goals: Roll back the Greek invasion and Create a strong political center in India. He did this both with Chandragupta. Yet he was unable to prevent future Greco-Indian kings from invading the heartland after the death of Ashoka for the goals got blurred and weakness in the dynasty.

In modern times we had Gandhiji have graduated clear goal of getting the British colonial rule. He chose Nehru to be the Chandragupta and that created stable political center, that saw the largest India that ever was. However he had to make trade-offs and we lost a lot of people and land. And again the goals are gettng blurred and we face incremental decay of state power.

We need to understand that the seeds of decay are sown with the creation of the stable political power as power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. We need checks and balances to ensure the stability survives for very long periods.

Instead of looking at Maurayn model we should look at Satavahana, Chalukyan and other dynasties with long rules of over 450 years. How did they do that inspite of many difficulties and challenges. Its that long stability that is need to rejuvenate the Indian civilization.

[brihaspati]

The BD immigration problem has two sides to it which are never ever allowed to be discussed in public or in the media. The first of which is that BD immgration into India happened for two completely different reasons. There was a Hindu migration out of East Pakistan post Partition, continuing and intensifying during the '71 war and coming in certain well-recognized waves as post "independence" increasingly fundamentalist Islamist groups began to control BD. Some of the early Hindu refugees who were settled in Dandakaranya had quite negative experiences. A later phase moved part of them to the Andamans. We had discussed in the "Partition thread" what the attitudes of the sole towering deliverers of Independence to India - were towards those Hindus desperate to escape the organized genocide and rape in East Pakistan. I was always tempted to accept the naive version of the Karma theory of sins of ancestors having to be paid for by descendants when I thought of the fate and treatment of Partition non-Muslim refugees into India.

The other BD immigration is from BD poor Muslims (and some criminals) driven primarily by economic deprivation in BD, and a very small minority driven by ideological reasons and connections to Islamic Jihad on the subcontinent. To be fair, a part of this Muslim economic migration is also a result of trafficing for sex trade - where a mixture of volunteer and coerced/abducted women/girls are moved to supply the demand in the fleshpots of economic/financial wonders primarily in western India.

When we bash up BD immigrants without thinking of this fundamental divide between Hindu and Muslim immigration, we tend to lend wind to the sails of regionalism that seeks to marginalize people within India simply because of their language or culture.

The problem comes from a total confusion about the cultural identity of the nation, and a deliberate or criminal negligence of the non-Abrahamic as a core aspect of our nationhood. This meant that GOI and early Congress leadership felt ashamed of providing strong support to not only those who became refugees but also see to it that - conditions in Pakistan were "corrected" so that they wouldny have to become refugees in the first place.

The subcontinent is the natural homeland for Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, and various non-Abrahamic belief systems that have flourished in India. Their holiest sites and cultural centres are firmly placed on the subcontinent and they do not dream of their life's crowning glory to make some pilgrimage to distant rocks in the near East. But the foundation of modern India post 1947, did not recognize this sense of a natural homeland. Therefore escaping Hindus or Sikhs from planned and classical Islamic patterns of genocide, were more an embarassment. Just as now, any such aspect has to be quickly turned into "equal equal" discussions that suppress the differences in the nature of the migrations - for it will portray the "Abrahamic" in bad light.

The subcontinent is a natural homeland for the faith groups mentioned above. In the future, we should restore and re-establish this sense of a natural homeland for these communities. Those whose affiliations give far more importance and supremacy to differnt "homelands" as the iconic focus and orbital centres of their cultural existence - should either leave for their natural homeland or disconnect from that affiliation and become at least a new community that has its centre on the subcontinent only.

Non-Muslims everywhere on the subcontinent should be able to feel that this is their natural home and that they can live and flourish without fear of Abrahamic arbitrainess and genocide. We cannot treat all refugees equally atrociously.

[ashkrishna]

We need to understand that the seeds of decay are sown with the creation of the stable political power as power corrupts and ablsoute power corrupts absloutely. We need checks and balances to ensure the stability survives for very long periods.

Sir, i did not get the bolded part and does 'stabilty' equate to the existence of an ever looming alternative power center? a kind of quasi-equilibrium where polarization of political power is impossible, something which hasn't happened in post-independent india?

Or is my understanding wrong?

[brihaspati]

Chanakya's failure could be exactly because of the reasons of "dynasty". When authroity becomes hereditary - and an individuals hold on state power has to be made unchallenged, that makes it necessary to remove societal features that can give society an independent set of criteria to judge the autocrat with. The extreme centralization based on a individual ruler, was perhaps the only option in the situation that Chanakya faced (my pet theory of fundamental transitions in society being inevitably of dictatorial nature). However we see that when that individual ruler takes a fancy to a new ideology (maybe extending his personal sense of guilt to the whole society) without thinking of the consequences for the society in the long run - it can unravel everything.

I see the same trends now. The overwhelming obsession to concentrate all authority in a single individual and dynasty makes it necessary to enforce an ideological vacuum on society. A vacuum that will force the society to look to the dynasty/individual for all answers and not derive answers on its own.

[ramana]

We need to understand that the seeds of decay are sown with the creation of the stable political power as power corrupts and ablsoute power corrupts absloutely. We need checks and balances to ensure the stability survives for very long periods.

Sir, i did not get the bolded part and does 'stabilty' equate to the existence of an ever looming alternative power center? a kind of quasi-equilibrium where polarization of political power is impossible, something which hasn't happened in post-independent india?

Or is my understanding wrong?

If you read Caroll Quigley" Evolution of Civlizations" and any long history, what was new, becomes old and entrenched and a vested interest which will cause decay and ruin. So a peaceful way to change the rulers has been the most successful method to ensure continuity while changing. Hindus had their methods through marriages to gain legitimacy for the change. Modern West has adopted democracy. Alternate power center creates paralysis.

[ashkrishna]

extremely enlightening.

Why doesnt this western formula for ideological transition work in the indian context? Is it an intrinsic intellectual inertia or external forces or maybe both?

So, it means that , for long term civilizational survival , it must either embrace change voluntarily or divert attention by inventing threats to the present status quo- which will ultimately fail and weaken the very edifice it was meant to strengthen.

[ramana]

It will be OT if we want to go into Western civilization. Gandhiji was in favor of it.


Embracing change is best option. But do read Quigley's book. The link is in the wiki article on him.

BTW, you done with Guindy?

[Jarita]

It will be OT if we want to go into Western civilization. Gandhiji was in favor of it.


Embracing change is best option. But do read Quigley's book. The link is in the wiki article on him.

BTW, you done with Guindy?

Gandhi set out an order to dissolve the INC. Probably driven from the theory you have explained

[ashkrishna]

yes. I will surely read it , once I can get my hands on it. Thanks a lot.

Guindy over followed by a stint in the indian oil industry, currently in massa land (MS). Hope to go back and look for shale gas in the gondwana region! (huge potential IMHO)

[ramana]

Thanks for update.

I ment Gandhiji was in favor of Western Civlization! i.e. civilization coming to West.

I do know about his wanting to dissolve the INC to reduce its USP and level the playing field for all but he didn't live to see it. And JLN and crew cashed in on the marquee value.

[Sanku]

^^Thanks for the explanation Sanku, but isn't the low voter turnout in mumbai, return of congress to power and lack of reaction + criticism in media/public about recent Besharam-al-shiekh + recent overtures to TSP regarding unconditional talks an evidence that pacifist tendencies are still very much their. Other than this, I was thinking exactly like you that war is the only solution. Sanku I have made a map on Deterrence thread regarding this scenario with TSP, would be great if you can visit and see if there are some mistakes in it.

Thanks Manish, I will address the points separately

1) SeS has had a huge back lash, probably the worst ever. It is very very rare for the Parthsarathy's of the world to come on national TV and call the PM a "sellout" of national interests (almost in so many words) I believe something did change post S e S, as I see the complete home + external affairs portfolio seem to have shifted to Pranab + Chidambaram post S e S. They are actually setting and driving the GoI agenda while MMS and MSK go out and mouth feeble platitudes. Even during the S e S time frame Chidambaram was publicly contradicting MMS on national TV. Antoy seems to be more with the Group 2 now too (he had a fairly different take on the EUMA, was not even in Delhi when MSK was shaking hands with Hillary and announcing EUMA -- unbelievable)

2) The victory of Congress is more a testimony of the complete failure of BJP to get its act together and behave like a right of center nationalist party, as Arnab Goswamy said on Times NOW, Congress become nationalist when opportunity arises, but BJP turned Nationalism to opportunism. A severe but true criticism that BJP deserves in quest to be me too to congress. (note I voted BJP and will vote them again despite everthing)

3) The feeling of quite rage I talk about will not get any notice in the English media which is busy white washing, for example post the Godhara massacre and carnage of Kar Sevaks by burning, for two day ToIlet and HT were celebrating "these goons had it coming, good" and then Gujarat erupted in fury.

4) I did look at the deterrence thread -- however the reason I did not comment on it was because Nuclear deterrence is never for Pakistan. Pakistan we can lick without Nukes anyway if needed. Pakistan's strength is not its arms or Nukes, its strength comes from its 3 and 1/2 friends backing it.

[Pranav]

2) The victory of Congress is more a testimony of the complete failure of BJP to get its act together and behave like a right of center nationalist party, as Arnab Goswamy said on Times NOW, Congress become nationalist when opportunity arises, but BJP turned Nationalism to opportunism. A severe but true criticism that BJP deserves in quest to be me too to congress. (note I voted BJP and will vote them again despite everthing)

What is happening in the BJP is interesting. As per Arun Shourie, the party is in control of a gang of scoundrels who are seeking a modus vivendi with the scoundrels of the Congress. Both sets of scoundrels are corrupt and are amenable to arm-twisting by the West.

It appears entrenched clique in the BJP will try to make sure that the leadership is passed to people like Sushma Swaraj or Arun Jaitley.

As you say, you will vote for the BJP despite everything. A hypothesis is that the BJP exists for precisely that purpose - to maintain a facade of nationalism to channel the rage of nationalists into a harmless direction, while doing absolutely nothing that is fundamentally different.

[Atri]

2) The victory of Congress is more a testimony of the complete failure of BJP to get its act together and behave like a right of center nationalist party, as Arnab Goswamy said on Times NOW, Congress become nationalist when opportunity arises, but BJP turned Nationalism to opportunism. A severe but true criticism that BJP deserves in quest to be me too to congress. (note I voted BJP and will vote them again despite everthing)

What is happening in the BJP is interesting. As per Arun Shourie, the party is in control of a gang of scoundrels who are seeking a modus vivendi with the scoundrels of the Congress. Both sets of scoundrels are corrupt and are amenable to arm-twisting by the West.

It appears entrenched clique in the BJP will try to make sure that the leadership is passed to people like Sushma Swaraj or Arun Jaitley.

As you say, you will vote for the BJP despite everything. A hypothesis is that the BJP exists for precisely that purpose - to maintain a facade of nationalism to channel the rage of nationalists into a harmless direction, while doing absolutely nothing that is fundamentally different.

Nice observation, Pranav ji...

Reminds me of the movie Matrix.. The city of Zion which is originally thought of one comprised freedom-fighters against the world of machines in the end of the series turns out to be just another control-mechanism of the machines to channelize the energy of rebels without hampering the system.. BJP probably works in similar fashion.. Rather tragic implication for those who consider themselves free and nationalist. The true freedom is achieved only when the machine main-frame is threatened of total failure by a virus (Agent Smith) who is destroyed by Neo in exchange of Zion's sovereignty and peace.

[JwalaMukhi]

As you say, you will vote for the BJP despite everything. A hypothesis is that the BJP exists for precisely that purpose - to maintain a facade of nationalism to channel the rage of nationalists into a harmless direction, while doing absolutely nothing that is fundamentally different.

Excellent diagnosis of the issue currently facing Bharat. Further Prognosis, also looks extremely pathetic. i.e., the facade shall continue as many a status quo personalities don the mantle. It is not going to change, not by a long chalk. Only change that can be expected as of now is just the faces and names, while the problem will further fester and grow.
(For example: If there were any question about acceptance of Crown prince in the elections, by the mass due to the distance between the royal aristocracy and the commoners; the threshold was eased because Ba Ja Pa fielded VG as its candidate. If commoners are asked to accept VG, then automatically commoners will also forego any hesitation in accepting his cousin, the crown prince. no difference between detective thomson and detective thompson. Everything is hunky dory in the power circles as long as status quo of milking the gravy train is concerned)
From the diagnosis and prognsis; treatment has to be very radical. The amount of time that the pseudo-nationalists have is none to very little to rectify. The approach will be to actually render the BJP irrelevant. Because without the destruction of the existing status quo, the chance for nationalists who would like not just the facade but the real deal is remote. It is like a Dog guarding a haystack, while it is useless for itself, but also will not let others to actually utilize it. The dog just is interested in sitting on the haystack. If Carol Quigely's process is to occur, then the pseudo-nationalists have to disintegrate, for which they are well on their way.

[brihaspati]

Some pages back I raised the idea of a possible encirclement of the northern plains stretching from Gujarat/Maharashtra through Rajasthan/Punjab/UP/Bihar/WB. This can be done by activating Jihadis in J&K, PRC in Sinkiang, Communists in Nepal, Maoists in Bihar/WB/Orissa, Jihadis in BD, EJ+Maoists in Andhra, and eastern Maharashtra. The gaps are in the western coast. The eastern half was gradually starved off so that the most resourceful and economically powerful segment of the northern plains would trade and transact through the "western" mouth only. This means however that any encirclement of this entire economic and population belt remains incomplete until Karnataka, western Maharashtra and Gujarat can be firmly put under "terror" or political regimes that may not be as active against Jihad+external interests for various misconceptions/considerations.

Western Maharashtra has been economically successful as a result of closing off of the traditional other transactional end of the northern arc - Bengal. Therefore it is likely to be more risk averse before terror, and would gradually evolve towards trying to "buying off" of "terror" and compromise and concede to extremists. Gujarat is tricky - and so far terror has not succeeded.

Karnataka was showing trends of becoming a potential source of resistance to the encirclement. I was waiting for some classical sign of the attempt at weakening such tendencies. It appears to be tried out now.

There seems to be some kind of sense of urgency in whoever is activating or coordinating the activations of the encirclement. It could be self-delusion or some belief in a "prophetic" "apocalypse" around 2012 in certain circles - which would presuupose even destructive advances by the Islamists as a necessary precursor to their "waited for Messiah" who would confront the "evil Islamists". Many such literature froth at the mouth about "India" being overrun by "revolutionaries" who destabilize the country and hastens the "endtimes". It could be a clever "self-fulfilling prophecy" started by ineterested parties as part of general psy-ops that prepare public imagination towards uncercover actual military-political strategy.

On the other hand, even without these CT - it is also possible that the productive lands and multitude of populations concentrated in the northern half of India are pawns and bargaining items in negotiations that concern a much larger area than India itself. Here, PRC needs to keep India at a disadvantage economically, separate India from CAR and Russian access, and separate Indis from Tibet and eastern Asia. TSP cannot survive on the long term without American and British help in expanding into the production powers of India. USA and UK need a handle in the subcontinent to stall the expansion of Russian and Chinese interests into IOR and Gulf.

From their racial and religious viewpoint, India is not a strong and reliable "servant".

So all these groups could have subtle bargianing over the bartering of India - and in this TSP can play the advantage, by nagging for the plum of northern India, and leaning over to whoever guarantees that infantile disorder.

[brihaspati]

A very long time back, and many pages back, I think I proposed the line that we should not pin all our hopes on the BJP. The BJP may or may not be the long term solution. There can be new forms as and when they are required. In fact I also consider the possibility that both Congress and BJP can split within and realign with parts of Congress joing with parts of BJP and form two new opposing groups.

A future crisis that can threaten the north will be the real trigger. I would not see such an eventuality as necessarily destructive and irreversibly damaging the nation.

[Jarita]

Brihaspati,
Such a macabre scenario - unfortunately accurate for the most ancient living civilization in the world.
Is there no sleight of hand, no mantra, no group of nationalists who can recoup our lost territories, strengthen our core to sustain this civilization!

[vera_k]

Is their a countermove to this POPULATION MOVE?

Three things.

1) Control the borders.
2) No one should have less than 4 children.
3) Work to repeal the polygamy restriction in the Hindu and Special marriage acts.

[Jarita]

Is their a countermove to this POPULATION MOVE?

Three things.

1) Control the borders.
2) No one should have less than 4 children.
3) Work to repeal the polygamy restriction in the Hindu and Special marriage acts.

????
The earth will collapse and Indian civilization will definitely go the way of the Romans and Aymaras due to denudation and environmental destrutcion. Having 4 kids is not sustainable.
Also, never understood how having multiple wives gives you more kids - Males and females are in roughly 50:50 ratio. The population is constrained due to female reproduction, not male. One man marrying 4 women produces 8 kids from those 4. At the same time 3 other men don't have women to marry (simplistic view and which is why they become jihadis ). Unless you are talking about a Chand Fiza scenario.
The more funadamental aspects of a uniform civil law is age of marriage. Some religious groups in India can marry at 14 years of age. Surely you don't want Hindus and Sikhs to marry 14 year olds '(or 9 year olds). It's most adharmic
What will bring about a sustainable impact is
- Control borders
- Have a uniform personal law (includes 4 wives, age of marriage etc) - we';ll have major riots but if we don't do this now, it will be too late
- Convert folks (why don't we)
- Adopt (If you want to go from 2 to 4 simply adopt - god knows there are enough orphans going around)
- Mandatory female education (most powerful)

[svinayak]

A very long time back, and many pages back, I think I proposed the line that we should not pin all our hopes on the BJP. The BJP may or may not be the long term solution. There can be new forms as and when they are required. In fact I also consider the possibility that both Congress and BJP can split within and realign with parts of Congress joing with parts of BJP and form two new opposing groups.

Nationalistic elements are also in every party but have been dormant due to money making groups have taken over.
Nationalistic elements have to group together and work no matter what party is in power.

[vera_k]

Also, never understood how having multiple wives gives you more kids - Males and females are in roughly 50:50 ratio. The population is constrained due to female reproduction, not male.

Women are seen as undesirables and killed off as indicated by the adverse sex ratios in India. And the constraint these days is due to the inability or lack of desire by many males to have a large family.

One man marrying 4 women produces 8 kids from those 4.

Wouldn't this be 16 (4x4)

Have a uniform personal law (includes 4 wives, age of marriage etc) - we';ll have major riots but if we don't do this now, it will be too late

Yes, yes. But this can as well be achieved by demodernising all personal laws. The liberal case for this is based on state sponsored repression of those who are perfectly capable and willing to have polygamous and polyamorous unions.

[Pranav]

Mr. Bhagwat categorically said that a new BJP president at the end of Rajnath Singh’s current tenure would be “someone other” than the four central leaders — Arun Jaitley, Sushma Swaraj, Venkaiah Naidu and Ananth Kumar. To a pointed question naming these leaders, Mr. Bhagwat said: “Yes, the new leadership will be someone other than these four.”

http://www.hindu.com/2009/11/07/stories ... 281000.htm

[Jarita]

Yes, yes. But this can as well be achieved by demodernising all personal laws. The liberal case for this is based on state sponsored repression of those who are perfectly capable and willing to have polygamous and polyamorous unions.

Errr no. Why on earth would Hindu/Sikh women be willing to settle for that? Why would the so called love jihad not become more effective?

Till the Hindu personal law was instituted Hindu women were worse off than an average Muslim woman (not talking about vedic times - talking abt the middle ages) - not only could the male have multiple spouses but the females had no recourse to divorce (unlike Sharia), widow marriage was frowned upon (unlike Sharia) and female infanticide was rampant (unlike Sharia). I am not including Sati etc which are not practised today. And of course the dowry system - the Muslim woman gets Mehr however meagre.
Only since the Hindu personal law was instituted has the situation turned around and the Hindu woman is now in a better position than a Muslim woman. Given where society is now, introducing polygamy makes the social structure very unattractive to Hindu/Sikh women.
For those who want to practise polygamy and procreate feel free to follow the Karunanidhis and other TN politicians. As long as spouse does not complain, it is all good.

[RayC]

Though one cannot see the co-relation of polygamy and reproduction prowess with the future strategic scenario for the sub continent, one cannot help but comment that one should visualise the fallout of such an idea on the food and water scarcity it will cause and the upheaval thereof.

It will be as catastrophic as the Climate Change issue portends!

[vera_k]

Those who feel that adopting permissive features from the Muslim personal law like polygamy and reduction of marriageable age is not necessary should explain how they propose to implement their suggestions in Pakistan and Bangladesh.

[RayC]

Those who feel that adopting permissive features from the Muslim personal law like polygamy and reduction of marriageable age is not necessary should explain how they propose to implement their suggestions in Pakistan and Bangladesh.

Since one does not stay in Pakistan or Bangladesh, it is difficult to say what they would do.

Yet this is worth check:

PAKISTAN is one of the few countries of the world whose government has adopted and is actively implementing a
national program of family planning.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... 5-0048.pdf

In Bangladesh.

The massive family planning program in Bangladesh has taken into account women's isolation and dependence. It employs a vast force of female field workers to visit women in their homes and provides contraceptive methods free of charge.

http://www.fhi.org/en/RH/Pubs/wsp/fctsh ... adesh1.htm

Indian Muslims have also got wise!

[RayC]

xposting:

Pulikeshi wrote:


RayC wrote:
Religion and politics is a dangerous combination!

I have come across some whoppers on this forum, but it is hard to get better than this one!
The state needs to keep them separated or that is the wisdom we have at this time acquired.... but
Keep the fuel away from the engine, because if you put them together they can explode!
Time to take the pure fuel of Religions and make it run dirty engine called Politics!


Perhaps, RayC should respectfully heed his own advice and stick to soldiering
Yes, geopolitics will fall into the Indic types that squirm to bring Hindu political thought into consideration.
However, there are others opposing that game as well... thankfully it is a democracy which this forum is not!

PS: I hope we can all meditate on the fact that Indian nationalism is like muscle (there are different kinds) and together they solve a purpose. And micro breaks and tears heal to strengthen the overall. What Indian nationalism does not have is strong (back)bones.
Whereas countries like China, nationalism is a brittle bone - hard to reset if it breaks and if it shatters real hard may never heal. What it has is plenty of raw muscle, but that by itself is stilling on a brittle frame.
What is the point of one muscle group going on making fun of another - both are required.
Neither want to exercise and get stronger, but hey criticism is cheap (this note included!)

By the way, why are we discussing althu, palthu stuff in a thread devoted to thinking about strategic leadership -
the quacking is getting unbearable!

It is a matter of opinion.

Pakistan is an ideal example of the dangerous mix of religion and Statecraft. Now, Pakistan is exploding.

To take a leaf of your muscle and brittle bone allegory. China has not only muscle but also fine bone. That is why they show a high nationalism. One has to observe them on the Internet. That apart, the manner in which they tenaciously pushed through the Olympic Flame in spite of opposition in many countries, showcased the Olympics as also were the top medal winners does indicate the inherent strength of their nationalism. It is where there is religion at the forefront is where they are having problems – Tibet and Xinjiang. Hence, religion and Statecraft is indeed an explosive mix.

The head must rule supreme and not the heart!

That is the sum total of leadership. Tactical or strategic!

Therefore, one wonders who is having the last laugh!

Strategic leadership is also an adjunct to soldiering. Forgive me for pointing this out to a learned soul as you! Strategic leadership is not evolved in a void.

The common usage of the term strategic is related to the concept of strategy—simply a plan of action for accomplishing a goal. One finds both broad and narrow senses of the adjective strategic. Narrowly, the term denotes operating directly against military or industrial installations of an enemy during the conduct of war with the intent of destroying his military potential. Today, strategic is used more often in its broader sense (e.g., strategic planning, decisions, bombing, and even leadership). Thus, we use it to relate something’s primary importance or its quintessential aspect—for instance, the most advantageous, complex, difficult, or potentially damaging challenge to a nation, organization, culture, people, place, or object. When we recognize and use strategic in this broad sense, we append such meanings as the most important long-range planning, the most complex and profound decisions, and the most advantageous effects from a bombing campaign—as well as leaders with the highest conceptual ability to make decisions.

As mentioned earlier, strategy is a plan whose aim is to link ends, ways, and means. The difficult part involves the thinking required to develop the plan based on uncertain, ambiguous, complex, or volatile knowledge, information, and data. Strategic leadership entails making decisions across different cultures, agencies, agendas, personalities, and desires. It requires the devising of plans that are feasible, desirable, and acceptable to one’s organization and partners—whether joint, inter¬agency, or multinational. Strategic leadership demands the ability to make sound, reasoned decisions—specifically, consequential decisions with grave implications. Since the aim of strategy is to link ends, ways, and means, the aim of strategic leadership is to determine the ends, choose the best ways, and apply the most effective means. The strategy is the plan; strategic leadership is the thinking and decision making required to develop and effect the plan. Skills for leading at the strategic level are more complex than those for leading at the tactical and operational levels, with skills blurring at the seams between those levels. In short, one may define strategic leadership as the ability of an experienced, senior leader who has the wisdom and vision to create and execute plans and make consequential decisions in the volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous strategic environment.

One has thus to first understand what is strategic leadership rather than meander into nooks and cranny and into the irrelevant.

Indian nationalism is indeed weak, as you so correctly opine. It is because of fractures in the India polity and erupting sub nationalism, apart from the religious schism in the social fabric, the latter instead of providing ‘body’ to nationalism is in actuality being given undue prominence and is but fracturing the nation. The latest being the fatwa on Vande Mataram!

I might add from an Indian example where religion and politics did not mix and thus did not become an explosive situation. The Golden Temple episode. Since the Army is apolitical and religion is not a major issue, Sikh officers and soldiers obeyed the order to take on the terrorists in the Golden Temple, knowing fully well that there would be damage to the Temple to some extent and it would hurt the Sikh psyche! It must have been heart wrenching for them, but they showed that they were made of sterner stuff! It is but a salute to the fact that religion is not mixed with one's duty and responsibility to the Nation! This is why the Army still continues to be the 'firefighting' organisation to keep the Nation together. They now want to deploy the Army against the Maoists, as if there is not enough of policemen or para military forces, whose primary job is internal security! Religion, national integrity and Statecraft does not mix! Or so my experience indicates. Ethos or being beyond religion, caste and community! It is a great experience and it is sad that you all have not experienced it!

During the Naxalite problem in Bengal, Bengali officers and men were to be watched! My CO had no qualms of showing me that letter! I had no qualms of being loyal to my Nation! That is nationalism if I may most politely inform. India comes first and then other issues. Indian Moslems also die for their nation in wars aaisnt their fellow religionist across the border. Please think of their loyalty. Please note we don't have Fort Hood massacres! The Army and the armed forces is what is True India! Proud of it!

My request, please don't use religion to divide us even further!

The future of this Nation depends on narrowing the schisms and that should be the political strategy that the leadership has to evolve.

We have to sink our differences, before the differences sink us!

It might be an aide mémoire that soldiers can think beyond soldiering since many a great world leader and statesman have had the proud privilege to wear the uniform of their Nation's armed forces!

If I may suggest with due regards to all, let us discuss leadership in the strategic concept and not boil everything down to the religious realm being the sole panacea to the issue of leadership of a Nation.

The point that this forum is not a democracy and that criticism is cheap is well taken. We are all governed (everyone) by those who pay for and own the Forum. Yet, there is some democracy - in that no one has coerced us to come to this forum and we are free to quit it without taking anyone's leave!


[/quote]

[Sanku]

quote="Sanku"
2) The victory of Congress is more a testimony of the complete failure of BJP to get its act together and behave like a right of center nationalist party, as Arnab Goswamy said on Times NOW, Congress become nationalist when opportunity arises, but BJP turned Nationalism to opportunism. A severe but true criticism that BJP deserves in quest to be me too to congress. (note I voted BJP and will vote them again despite everthing)


What is happening in the BJP is interesting. As per Arun Shourie, the party is in control of a gang of scoundrels who are seeking a modus vivendi with the scoundrels of the Congress. Both sets of scoundrels are corrupt and are amenable to arm-twisting by the West.

It appears entrenched clique in the BJP will try to make sure that the leadership is passed to people like Sushma Swaraj or Arun Jaitley.

As you say, you will vote for the BJP despite everything. A hypothesis is that the BJP exists for precisely that purpose - to maintain a facade of nationalism to channel the rage of nationalists into a harmless direction, while doing absolutely nothing that is fundamentally different.

Nice observation, Pranav ji...

Reminds me of the movie Matrix.. The city of Zion which is originally thought of one comprised freedom-fighters against the world of machines in the end of the series turns out to be just another control-mechanism of the machines to channelize the energy of rebels without hampering the system.. BJP probably works in similar fashion.. Rather tragic implication for those who consider themselves free and nationalist. The true freedom is achieved only when the machine main-frame is threatened of total failure by a virus (Agent Smith) who is destroyed by Neo in exchange of Zion's sovereignty and peace.

Err do not over extrapolate, when I say I will still vote for BJP no matter what, I am only speaking in terms of its current status, since I have to vote, I will vote for a choice which at least is closer even if by a little to my thinking.

Using this to craft theories of Zion types is a little far fetched. (note I am only saying you can not use MY example for the extrapolation, if you want to do the same based on other data thats fine with me)

I do agree that BJP is more than a little rotten right now and too much like congress. Some one described BJP as congress of the 60s. That I believe is pretty accurate.

[brihaspati]

Jarita wrote
Till the Hindu personal law was instituted Hindu women were worse off than an average Muslim woman (not talking about vedic times - talking abt the middle ages) - not only could the male have multiple spouses but the females had no recourse to divorce (unlike Sharia), widow marriage was frowned upon (unlike Sharia) and female infanticide was rampant (unlike Sharia). I am not including Sati etc which are not practised today. And of course the dowry system - the Muslim woman gets Mehr however meagre.

No, this is a pretty wide statement and will be difficult to prove historically. Hindu practices varied very widely - and almost all the "worse off' conditions for Hindu women you are mentioning appear to coincide exactly with long standing areas of established Islamic dominance. Even in Muslim law, divorce was and is not automatically recognized for the woman as a right. It can only be opted for if the right to divorce had been included in the kabulnama/nikahnama (contract of marriage) - not otherwise. Then again this right is not recognized in all branches/schools of Sharia. Moreover, all schools of sharia formally recognize the right for any Muslim man to keep and sexually enjoy concubines who can therefore exceed in number the alotted maximum of four wives. The significant difference between the medieval Hindu law and Islamic law was about slavery - which was formally recognized and sanctioned religiously in the Islamic texts and actually carried out in practice.

Try to find actual refrences for all the "obnoxious" practices you mention on the medieval "Hindu" women - you will not be able to find a lot of contemporary evidence that also staisfies the typical criterion for acceptability as claimed by "professional historians". It has to be contemporary, it has to be from the "victim" side, and after that it has to be vetted for neutraility and hidden political propaganda/agenda.