Indian Education System

SriniY · Post by **SriniY** » 07 Nov 2009 11:38

Singha sir,

Most massa universities are more interested in minting money from indian/chinese students and dont really care much whether you do a MS thesis or not and if you do its quality. My above post was in reference to graduate study in India

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Nov 2009 10:57

impressive....one of the core strengths of khan .... initiative and tinkering
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125798004542744219.html

negi · Post by **negi** » 12 Nov 2009 11:04

^ Wow very encouraging indeed. I really liked the idea of a CNC Milling machine in the backyard one can literally repair or even make some of the simple house hold machines at home.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 12 Nov 2009 12:31

negi wrote:^ Wow very encouraging indeed. I really liked the idea of a CNC Milling machine in the backyard one can literally repair or even make some of the simple house hold machines at home.

A lot of ITvity only engineers forget today what engineering really is. It certainly ain't writing java code in a GUI editor.

Small DMitis in the article though...Arduino is not a microcontroller!

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 12 Nov 2009 13:40

^^^^
Why isn't it one? An arduino board is at Atmel chip mounted on a board with a bunch of input and output pins and maybe a USB port. They use different atmel chips depending on the board model.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 12 Nov 2009 23:13

^^^ coz the Atmegas they use are microcontrollers - the Arduino itself is a microcontroller board (that microcontroller+mucho more (FTDI usb etc. etc.)) Otherwise it would be like calling the laptop computer a microprocessor

.

I use something called the Ariane now - better specs on the MCU, much smaller form factor and pretty good sensor config (though all soldered on the board) though dont think its been released publicly yet.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 13 Nov 2009 02:31

Securing India’s science future ----- N. R. Narayana Murthy
http://beta.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/a ... epage=true

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 19 Nov 2009 20:18

Web-site of National Innovation Foundation
http://www.nif.org.in/

if you search around many people also do final year engineering and diploma projects for similar problems (i saw arecanut dehusker, one person i know had built something of the kind). i wonder what happens to all of those. i think the NIF should also pick up those innovations too and sort of tabulate them so that other people can benefit from them.

also hope it is somehow made worthwhile for these innovators.

oh! dont forget to go through the list of innvations and innovators
to get started. use previous and next at the bottom

http://www.nif.org.in/?q=Petromax_based_film_projector

all sorts of things

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 25 Nov 2009 17:55

Tamil Nadu announces new Rs. 70 cr. building for Madras Medical College
http://beta.thehindu.com/news/states/ta ... epage=true

http://beta.thehindu.com/education/article54309.ece
Universities must fall in step with research institutes: Venkatraman

Asked whether the government’s expansion of the IIT network would help Indian scientists make a global mark, he felt it was as important to set up more institutes for the basic sciences, modelled on the Indian Institute of Science, Tata Institute of Fundamental Research and the National Centre for Biological Sciences, preferably located within university campuses.

Even at an individual salary level, scientists and even PhD students need to be paid much better, said Dr. Ramakrishnan. "I don’t think scientists care a lot about money. I took a 40 per cent pay cut to move to England. However, it is important to pay scientists well enough so they don’t have to constantly worry about money and are secure, because this frees them to think about their research," he said.

Inventor prize for school dropout -- Honour for sparking hygiene revolution

Last week, school dropout A. Muruganantham, who sparked a hygiene revolution in Indian villages through a machine that churns out cheap sanitary napkins, won a National Innovation Foundation award for his invention. But the 43-year-old from Coimbatore, who received the prize from the President, is more excited that his invention has freed poor women from the tyranny of unhygienic menstrual periods.

“Whereas napkins made by MNCs cost at least Rs 100 for a pack of five, the napkin made by my machine costs just 50 paise per piece. The semiautomatic machine that I invented makes 1,000 napkins in eight hours, runs on 5 amp power connections and costs just Rs 85,000,” says Muruganantham, who couldn’t complete schooling after his father died in an accident.

http://telegraphindia.com/1091125/jsp/n ... 783178.jsp

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 28 Nov 2009 12:37

http://portal.unesco.org/en/ev.php-URL_ ... N=201.html
The number of researchers, on the rise world-wide, jumped by 56% in developing countries between 2002 and 2007, according to a new study published by the UNESCO Institute for Statistics (UIS). In comparison, their number increased by only 8.6% in developed countries during the same period*.

In 2007, 1.74% of the world’s GDP was devoted to R&D (1.71% in 2002). While most developing countries invest less than 1% of their GDP in R&D, there are certain exceptions such as China (1.5%) and Tunisia (1%).

The average rate of expenditure in Asia reached 1.6% in 2007, influenced by the top investors: Japan (3.4%), the Republic of Korea (3.5%) and Singapore (2.6%). In contrast, India invested only 0.8% of its GDP in R&D in 2007.

Expenditure in R&D remains concentrated in industrialized countries: the European Union, the United States and Japan represented almost 70% of global R&D expenditure.

Posting an internal email to the "concerned folks"... Reproduced below is a message from the Director, drafted on the occasion of our Golden Jubilee inaugural.

LOOKING AHEAD
Professor M.S. Ananth, Director, I.I.T. Madras

The word IIT today represents a brand name that India is proud of. The IIT system represents the realization of a vision that Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru articulated of providing scientists and technologists of the highest calibre to help building a self-reliant nation. The Golden Jubilee is therefore an occasion for celebration as well as the time for us to look forward to the next fifty years - it would be wise to introspect and to identify lessons that we have learnt and not learnt from the global best practices in higher education. India today is an India full of youth and promise and it is incumbent on her higher educational institutions to guide the country to a position of leadership in the world while preserving her age-old cultural and spiritual identity.

There are lessons (C.M. Vest, Pursuing the endless frontier, MIT Press 2005) that IITs have learnt and internalised rather well:

1. Young faculty, given academic freedom enrich the system with a flow of new ideas
2. Combining teaching and research brings passion and constant rejuvenation
3. Open competition for faculty and students drives excellence
4. The faculty's commitment to service leads to strong interactions with business, industry, and Government
5. Funding flows from government funding agencies to the researchers based on their merit in a competitive marketplace of ideas.

There are other important lessons that we have yet to internalise and we should resolve to do so with the enlightened support of all stakeholders:

1. Science is the search to discover unity in the wild variety of the universe. So are the Arts. As a technological institution that aspires to be among the best in the world we will expand to include education in the arts and in medicine.
2. Innovation and competitiveness are the main drivers of economic growth in today's globalised world. The major sources of both are the University-Centred Research Parks which are very generously supported by the governments in the developed countries. We will work with the government to evolve a national policy to support such Research Parks.
3. Government funding all over the world comes with a caveat of equity in its distribution. Private funding from industry or from philanthropic individuals is important for pushing the frontiers of excellence in specially chosen areas of research. We will strive to make this happen in India in the near future.
4. The value system of the IITs is not the same as that of the market place. We have articulated our values and will forever guard against bureaucracy upsetting the balance between trust and accountability by introducing undesirable 'incentives'.
5. Good graduate schools in the West are enriched by a mix of students and faculty from other countries. While science is universal, scientists carry cultural prejudices and a mix of diverse cultural backgrounds helps overcome many of them. We are aware that many faculty in the USA who received Nobel Prizes in recent decades are non-natives. We resolve to make it easy for foreign students to study and for foreign scientists to hold permanent faculty positions in our institutions.
6. Until the turn of the century, the IITs which were made autonomous by an Act of Parliament were, like all government supported institutions, funded conservatively and by and large left to govern themselves - a benign neglect that augured well for educational institutions. The IITs shot into fame in the last decade, as a result of the entrepreneurial success of their alumni in the USA. Public and political attention have since then been heaped on the IITs in India. Such attention is indeed a double-edged sword and we will guard against erosion of our values by such unwarranted attention!

IITs have reached the stage of adolescence as it were after a childhood of fifty years. They have the intellectual wherewithal, the youthful zest and the wisdom to fashion a brilliant yet sustainable future for themselves. The first Indian Governor General of free India, Bharat Ratna Rajagopalachari said, "If the scientists of India make up their minds, they can raise India's prestige to a degree which will more than make up for any failures or defects in other fields" On the occasion of our Golden Jubilee it is but appropriate that we in IITM resolve to live up to the words of the "wisest son of India" in the years to come.

A Nandy · Post by **A Nandy** » 28 Nov 2009 23:38

In other news...

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 279608.cms

For the first time, conduct of CAT has been entrusted to American firm Prometric, which was organising the test over a period of 10 days. A total of 2,41,582 students have registered for CAT this year.

Was very happy to read the first few lines...until the last part....agreed that Prometric has been organizing such tests over a long period of time....but surely one of the big 3 IT companies can be entrusted with the infrastructure for such a test too.

Also I wonder if more such national level tests can be brought online.

derkonig · Post by **derkonig** » 29 Nov 2009 00:18

^^^
Only specialized cos. like Prometric will have the kind of nationwide infra and the experience in administering tests that CAT needs. Indian IT cos. can may be develop the software for the tests but certainly not provide the physical test centres.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 30 Nov 2009 04:25

Science faces ethics dilemma --- IIT professor charged with misconduct but opinion differs
http://telegraphindia.com/1091130/jsp/f ... 802135.jsp

Legislation to Allow Foreign Universities Into India May Face New Delay
http://chronicle.com/article/Legislatio ... _medium=en

Worried that a proposed law to allow foreign universities to set up shop in India still isn't attractive enough to appeal to the world's best universities, the prime minister's office has referred the bill to a panel of top government officials for possible revisions, The Telegraph, a newspaper in Calcutta, reported. The bill, which was supposed to have been introduced in Parliament in 2007, has faced numerous delays.

Kapil Sibal, India's minister in charge of higher education, told The Chronicle in October that he expected the bill to be passed before July. But the decision by the prime minister's office may mean the legislation could undergo significant changes and be delayed again, the newspaper said. Typically, review panels take several months to complete their work. The bill, as recently revised by Mr. Sibal, would allow foreign universities to set their own tuition rates and would exempt them from the admissions quotas that India's public universities must observe. Many observers had thought the prime minister's office might find those provisions too lenient, but, in its response, it appears to have taken the opposite view.

During a visit to the United States last week, India's prime minister, Manmohan Singh, and President Obama announced plans to strengthen their countries' ties in higher education, and American universities reaffirmed their interest in India. However, The Telegraph said that officials of Harvard and Yale Universities and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology told Mr. Sibal last month that they were waiting for the bill to be passed before finalizing their plans.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 02 Dec 2009 19:31

IITs, IIMs face 25% faculty shortage
http://business.rediff.com/report/2009/ ... ortage.htm

Giving details of the vacancies, he said the faculty position in the IITs stands at 2,983 against the sanctioned strength of 4,267. Similarly, there are 388 faculty members against the sanctioned strength of 468 in the IIMs. The situation is no different in National Institutes of Technology (NITs) where the faculty position stands at 2603 against the sanctioned strength of 3747. The scenario is critical in Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore where there are only 210 faculty members while the sanctioned strength is 478.

The vacancy is over 50 per cent in Schools of Planning and Architecture. Against the sanctioned positions for 127 teachers, there are only 62 faculty members in these institutes. There are 54 vacant posts in Indian School of Mines, which has sanctioned strength for 192 faculty members.

Solution to all the above problems: We need more Indic-ness instilled in us as our friends will have us believe from the relevant threads.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 02 Dec 2009 19:53

^^^And why not, eh?

What would you rather have as the solution - Pakiness?

Chale aatey hain...

negi · Post by **negi** » 02 Dec 2009 21:27

Giving details of the vacancies, he said the faculty position in the IITs stands at 2,983 against the sanctioned strength of 4,267. Similarly, there are 388 faculty members against the sanctioned strength of 468 in the IIMs. The situation is no different in National Institutes of Technology (NITs) where the faculty position stands at 2603 against the sanctioned strength of 3747. The scenario is critical in Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore where there are only 210 faculty members while the sanctioned strength is 478.

Ah this should explain the reason for lack of emphasis on R&D in IITs , seems faculty would be too busy preparing for classes and other administrative chores to devote decent time to research .

I wonder if IITs or even IISc rope in Post graduate students for teaching positions , specially for freshers or generic courses ? I know that NITs and Govt Engg colleges do absorb post graduate students on an adhoc basis for filling teaching positions.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 02 Dec 2009 21:53

negi wrote: Ah this should explain the reason for lack of emphasis on R&D in IITs ,

From what I have seen, there is a contest of two ideas. One group says "We will serve India by doing what is needed on the ground, whatever that may be, even if it has nothing to do with research or education." The other group says "Our job is to research and educate, so we will focus on just that, the rest we wont spend too much time." I was clearly batting for the latter side, but a good mix of the former and a large fraction of the latter is good for health of any institution. Things will get there slowly but steadily, we need more arms and legs to support what is there, let alone dream of diverse aspirations.

seems faculty would be too busy preparing for classes and other administrative chores to devote decent time to research

I happened to have the chance to take a look at the quality of papers from Indian institutions for a conference meant primarily for that purposes. I see IISc is a cut above the rest, in fact paper quality was akin to the international premier conferences in my field, just that I did nt like the problems the guys were studying. Personal mismatch of interests. The IITs were here and there, you could see a separating line in terms of paper quality. My personal assessment, so it brings the biases. I had a sample set of 4 from IISc and 7 from IITs. Contributions from IISc were reasonable, not too deep or too fundamental, but with enough depth to merit acceptance in an international stage.

I wonder if IITs or even IISc rope in Post graduate students for teaching positions , specially for freshers or generic courses ?

I dont think this can be done in a lecture-ship position unless GoI rules are changed. Teaching assistants may be possible. Lectureship positions go by the rule, cannot hire people just like that. A system of checks and balances, and a necessary one, as long as it enables things get done quickly. But therein lies the trouble in the Indian context.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 04 Dec 2009 23:06

REVIVING GLORY

There is much in a name, whatever Juliet may say, and changing the name of Presidency College to Presidency University trails promises of great things to come. That is to happen in the future, of course; so far the change in status boded forth by the change in name is still contained in a bill. The bill is yet to be tabled, and its provisions yet to become public knowledge. It is good to think that West Bengal will have a university that will have as its basis an institution once known for its excellence. It is still rich in the tools and materials of learning, as its extraordinary library demonstrates. For those who feel that tradition would be a positive input in the process of turning a college into a university, Presidency has a brilliant tradition of remarkable teachers, students and researchers close to incomparable among undergraduate colleges, and so may be expected to revive that again. There might be magic in its walls.

Presidency as university will have to acquire the human content necessary to be true to its label: it will have to make offers the best cannot refuse. Given the present state of the college, deeply mired as it is in the self-destructive politicking and tyranny of vested interests normal in the rest of West Bengal, all this may seem a tall order. But it can be done. If the chief minister has taken such a bold step — after even autonomy was denied the college — he must also be confident of keeping politics out as the institution is reborn.

Will it be able to manage to do that, when the ambience in WB is otherwise. Best wishes.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 05 Dec 2009 10:11

If this is of any help,
Doctorate Recipients from U.S. Universities: Summary Report 2007–08
http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf10309/
around 33% of doctorates were earned by furrin-citizens

TABLE 12. Top 40 countries/economies of origin of temporary visa holders earning doctorates at U.S. colleges and universities, ranked by number of doctorate recipients: 2008

Doctorate recipients
1. China --- 4,526
2. India --- 2,316

A response to why there is fac shortfall in Indian institutions:

There is such an enormous wealth of reasons why this is so and will remain: corruption; enormous teaching overload (5 classes a day); tremendous brain drain of qualified faculty out to better-paying privates or foreign schools; the massive swelling of the college-going population in the last twenty years; competition from private-sector jobs with no countermanding academic freedom, intellectual opportunity, or social prestige to compensate for lower pay; ityadi [etc].

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 08 Dec 2009 03:45

I remember seeing a report about 15 central universities somewhere, cant locate it, if anyone finds it please post here.

IIT-Gandhinagar draws top NRI brains

It is reverse brain drain and how! Nearly half of the 700-odd applications received by the newly opened IIT-Gandhinagar for faculty positions are from NRIs, teaching in premiere universities all over the world. Director of IIT-Gandhinagar Sudhir Kumar Jain said at least three NRIs teaching in prestigious universities in the US and Singapore will join them by the end of December.

Why they did nt put this in the first line though, beats me.

"To attract more talent from abroad, we are also offering them option to go abroad twice a year to pursue research and academics," says Jain.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 312330.cms
This is exactly what is missing in other IITs, dont know if thats a state govt offer or how the IIT-Gandhinagar found the economic muscle to lure people with such offers, other IITs, especially the oldies, should figure some ways for that.

Parliament approves Bill to split J&K Central varsity
http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article61586.ece

Nobel pitch for talent flow --- Laureates juggle ideas and jokes before prize ceremony
http://telegraphindia.com/1091208/jsp/f ... 835987.jsp

Against all odds: From potato fields to IIT
http://getahead.rediff.com/slide-show/2 ... to-iit.htm

IIMs to review Prometric CAT contract
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 312443.cms

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 08 Dec 2009 22:54

So the new IITs are entering into early collaborations with foreign institutes. The Hyderabad one with Georgia Tech and Patna with Univ of Houston.

http://www.iith.ac.in/index.php?id=mous-moug-imag

http://www.iitp.ac.in/iitp_mou.htm

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Dec 2009 08:44

here is where the well established indic profs in bideshi univs can help out.

decades back, foreign profs from places like germany (iitm) etc came down to teach for a while...now we must help ourselves.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 09 Dec 2009 11:15

Regarding the IIT-Gandhinagar news report in ToI, this is what someone inside had to say:

This is mostly hype; yes, there are hundreds of applicants from abroad, but a vast majority of these applicants will not even be shortlisted by any of the IITs, old or new. IITM and IITH (which IITM is mentoring) are also receving such applications, and I am familiar with these. Most of the applicants from abroad can hardly be classified as returning NRIs - they are either fresh PhD's (who are not getting jobs and are hence looking at returning) or PhD's from India who are returning after a post-doctoral stint abroad. To look at the very same article,
The three faculty members who are expected to join by December include Sameer Dalvi who specialises in solid-solid reaction and phase equilibrium. Dalvi, who did his PhD from IIT-Bombay, currently teaches in Columbia University.
As per the Columbia University web site, Sameer is a post doc. and so on.
Apart from the NRIs, a large number of senior faculties, who have retired from IIT-Bombay are also expected to join IIT-Gandhinagar.
As I see it, this is something that is happening in Gandhinagar and not in any of the other new IIT's and maybe worthy of hyping up.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 10 Dec 2009 00:43

Singha wrote:here is where the well established indic profs in bideshi univs can help out.

decades back, foreign profs from places like germany (iitm) etc came down to teach for a while...now we must help ourselves.

This will remain just a wish. Times have changed and even the bideshi indics would want to offload mundane teaching at their own universities to others and concentrate more on research or writing research proposals for self advancement. Only the almost retired old fellas might want to do a vacation stint teaching hungry young minds in the turd world.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 15 Dec 2009 13:57

This will remain just a wish. Times have changed and even the bideshi indics would want to offload mundane teaching at their own universities to others and concentrate more on research or writing research proposals for self advancement. Only the almost retired old fellas might want to do a vacation stint teaching hungry young minds in the turd world.

Quite possible, my experience though is that if the semester/quarter is broken up into modules of a few weeks each - NRI/PIO profs are often happy to come down to teach a few weeks here, spent the time in Des meeting up relatives etc and then head back. Semester long commitments are kinda tough to keep up.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Dec 2009 10:22

assamtribune.com

Govt to give laptops to 1st div holders
Staff Reporter
GUWAHATI, Dec 18 – The State government has announced to give laptops to the students securing first division in the HSLC, High Madrassa and Madrassa Board (F.M.) examinations from the coming year. Distributing computers to the meritorious students at the Anundoram Borooah Award ceremony today at Khanapara Veterinary field, Chief Minister Tarun Gogoi mentioned that the State government is focusing on providing the best possible education tools to the students, and laptops would be the latest addition of the list.

The additional cost of laptops would be borne by the State government. The award was instituted at the cost Rs 25 crore, which has now gone up to Rs 34 crore.

A total of 17,362 students, securing first division in the above mentioned examination, received the awards today.

The Chief Minister, in his speech, mentioned that it is not possible for the students to carry the desktops, wherever they go for study. Therefore, laptops would be more convenient for them.

Gogoi termed the Anundoram Awards as one of the biggest achievements of his government and added that the award, instituted in the year 2005, has provided impetus to the students to do well in their examinations.

“The award has boosted competitiveness among the students and created a conducive environment for education,” he said.

In the year 2005, a total of 12,756 secured first division in the HSLC and High Madrassa examinations while the total pass percentage was 53.07. In the next year in 2006, a total of 13,493 students got first division while 53.54 per cent students passed the examinations. In the year 2007, the number of awardees was 12,708, while the pass per cent was 54.93. In 2008, the number of students securing first division was 17,331 with an overall pass percentage of 58.68. This year the pass percentage was 61.95.

Health Minister Himanta Biswa Sarma, while speaking on the occasion, said that Assam is the only State in the country distributing computers among students at such large scale. “Though we are a poor State, we do not compromise on the educational needs of our students,” he mentioned.

MK Yadav, MD, Amtron also said that every year the students are being provided with the upgraded version of the computers.

State Education Minister Gautam Bora and Social Welfare Minister Akan Bora were also present on the occasion.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 21 Dec 2009 17:56

http://getahead.rediff.com/report/2009/ ... dustry.htm

Preparing students for tests is now a Rs 7,500 crore industry

Sad. And a sign of failure for our education system me thinks.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 23 Dec 2009 07:30

Tanaji wrote:http://getahead.rediff.com/report/2009/ ... dustry.htm

Preparing students for tests is now a Rs 7,500 crore industry

Sad. And a sign of failure for our education system me thinks.

So what legislations do you propose to fix the system?

.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 23 Dec 2009 07:57

^^^ Not everything gets fixed with a legislation. The basic mindset of students that exams are the end-all be-all must also change.

Not related to this topic completely, but during my last semester as a favor I TA'ed my advisor's class which was aimed at MS and early stage Pee Yech Dee students. The class was run in a fairly free form manner with no prescribed texts and instead students being encouraged to research and read conference and journal publications. The class only had 1 project (and no exam) where the students had to conceptualize, design and implement a cool mobile application (and backend if required) - they were told that they were free to do as they pleased as long as the app didnt involve p0rn. Throughout that semester, I had a ton of desi students from the class come during the office hours (each student multiple times) asking me as to exactly what app I had in mind and what kind of features they should implement?!

Every time I told them that I had no set app in mind and they would be graded on how innovative they were in coming up with an app. But they refused to believe that it was the case and kept insisting that I must have some app in mind with some specific features and if I could just tell them what it was, they would do a good job in implementing it. And quite a few of them were from really good engg. schools (incld. some from Eye Eye Teas). But they could not fathom the fact that I wanted them to figure out an unsolved problem, develop and innovate a solution themselves rather than give them a problem for which they knew there was a solution all along and all they have to do is find a path to the solution. They could not wrap their heads around the fact that their projects would be graded on their own merit onlee and there was no clear reference solution available for them to use as a guideline.

This is what our education system lacks - we churn out implementers but not innovators. We focus on taking exams and solving 100s of book problems whose solutions we know already exist but rarely encourage the fresh thinking and innovation.

munna · Post by **munna** » 23 Dec 2009 08:19

Rahul Mehta wrote: So what legislations do you propose to fix the system?

Rahul Mehtaji I will attempt a solution based on a "Points Criteria" system:

A legislation should comprise of the following broad thrusts

1) Any entrance test should not account for more than 25% of the admission criteria for the admission to any of the Universities of India (Tax funded).

2) NCC and NSS volunteering services and the laurels earned therein shall account for at least 10% of the admission criteria of a university.

3) The marks earned in relevant subjects at high school level (11th and 12th) should be standardized (across all boards) by a transparent formula.

4) The given standardized score should be multiplied by an index that gives weightage to factors like an individual's location, gender, parental income, handicaps and other backwardness indicators.

5) The standardized marks multiplied with index shall give us a true merit indicator that shall factor in not only the absolute marks earned but also the difficulties incurred in doing so. This factor can account for upto 50% of the criteria of admission.

After this a shortlist may be prepared of suitable candidates within zone of selection

6) 15 % shall be reserved for interviews (to be conducted in English, Hindi or one's mother tongue as preferred) to analyze the suitability of candidates towards institutions established using tax-payers's money. For example candidates seeking admission at Indian Institutes of Technology may be graded for initiatives, innovation and ideas regarding solutions to India's challenges in the fields of science or tech and not only their commitment to books/self.

This is just a rudimentary attempt at a law that may ensure better candidates for our tax payer funded institutes (I do not speak for or on behalf of private institutes as most of them seem dodgy to me).

sugriva · Post by **sugriva** » 23 Dec 2009 09:13

Raja Bose wrote: but during my last semester as a favor I TA'ed

Hakim Bose, Did the desis finally get a passing grade in the course

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 23 Dec 2009 12:55

^^^ Some did, some didn't (C is considered a fail for a grad course) - there was mucho

and some talibs in true desi style even threatened to escalate it and take up matters with my higher-ups (namely, advisor) since I was so anal/evil/unhelpful (last one from a PYT). I sweetly told them to be my guest since I knew that my advisor was even more pi$$ed off (and had initially wanted to fail more of them worthies).

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 23 Dec 2009 20:27

^^^^
There's this tech forum I frequent and there was a flood of posts from newbies a little while ago requesting for project ideas for mobile devices (in one case, it was a "please send me the codez" type request

), claiming that the prof wasn't helping and neither was the TA and so on. I wonder if these were from students of your class?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Dec 2009 20:48

its common. everyone wants a shortcut to the soln and name & fame. the internet is the great facilitator of this. back in our days we couldnt produce big stuff but whatever we did, was produced through real labour not google searches. nor did we have fancy ppts just typewriter for final report.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 24 Dec 2009 00:16

ArmenT wrote:^^^^
There's this tech forum I frequent and there was a flood of posts from newbies a little while ago requesting for project ideas for mobile devices (in one case, it was a "please send me the codez" type request ), claiming that the prof wasn't helping and neither was the TA and so on. I wonder if these were from students of your class?

hmm...could be.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 24 Dec 2009 00:19

Singha wrote:its common. everyone wants a shortcut to the soln and name & fame. the internet is the great facilitator of this. back in our days we couldnt produce big stuff but whatever we did, was produced through real labour not google searches. nor did we have fancy ppts just typewriter for final report.

It is not even about the shortcut - what amazed me that they were unable to comprehend that there was nobody to tell them what to do and they had to decide by themselves

If we have such people in the workforce whose mentality is to only follow, is it any wonder why we are still the back office of the world, slaving our guts off so that the front office in Khan gets the kudos?

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 24 Dec 2009 08:53

Tanaji: http://getahead.rediff.com/report/2009/ ... dustry.htm

Preparing students for tests is now a Rs 7,500 crore industry. Sad. And a sign of failure for our education system me thinks. So what legislations do you propose to fix the system?

Rahul Mehta: So what legislations do you propose to fix the system?

Raja Bose: Not everything gets fixed with a legislation.

The basic mindset of students that exams are the end-all be-all must also change. [/Quote]

Pls do read Tanaji's post, to which my question was referring to. Tanaji is cursing the "system". The system by definition is creation of legislations, Govt Orders and other administrative decisions. So if one is cursing system, then he is making statement that legislations, GOs etc that created the system is flawed. So if one curses that "system has failed", then burden to point out which GOs are bad is on him.

Raja Bose: This is what our education system lacks - we churn out implementers but not innovators. We focus on taking exams and solving 100s of book problems whose solutions we know already exist but rarely encourage the fresh thinking and innovation.

So how do you say that fault is of system? It may be that market wants implementers more than innovators and so students prefer to become implementers than innovators.

In India, a large number of positions in industry is filled with nepotism and not by merit. So pie is small, and pie available for meritorious is even smaller, and so merit has to work hard to prove itself in exams to get top slot. In US, a mediocre student knows that even if he cant prove himself in exam, he can still can get opportunity in field where he can prove himself and ascend. So US student focuses on his interests more than exams. IOW, in India, given the administration promotes nepotism in Govt as well as private sectors, the race to excel in exams (for those who dont have uncles at high places) is intense. But all these factors are fairy tales to you, and only think you can curse is manasikta of us bad bad people.

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Munna: Rahul Mehtaji I will attempt a solution based on a "Points Criteria" system: {no jee pls, all non-admin BRites are equal}

A legislation should comprise of the following broad thrusts

1. Any entrance test should not account for more than 25% of the admission criteria for the admission to any of the Universities of India (Tax funded).

2. NCC and NSS volunteering services and the laurels earned therein shall account for at least 10% of the admission criteria of a university.

3. The marks earned in relevant subjects at high school level (11th and 12th) should be standardized (across all boards) by a transparent formula.

4. The given standardized score should be multiplied by an index that gives weightage to factors like an individual's location, gender, parental income, handicaps and other backwardness indicators.

5. The standardized marks multiplied with index shall give us a true merit indicator that shall factor in not only the absolute marks earned but also the difficulties incurred in doing so. This factor can account for upto 50% of the criteria of admission.

After this a shortlist may be prepared of suitable candidates within zone of selection

6. 15 % shall be reserved for interviews (to be conducted in English, Hindi or one's mother tongue as preferred) to analyze the suitability of candidates towards institutions established using tax-payers's money. For example candidates seeking admission at Indian Institutes of Technology may be graded for initiatives, innovation and ideas regarding solutions to India's challenges in the fields of science or tech and not only their commitment to books/self.

This is just a rudimentary attempt at a law that may ensure better candidates for our tax payer funded institutes (I do not speak for or on behalf of private institutes as most of them seem dodgy to me).

2. If NCC and NSS marks start taking so much weightage, the corruption in those two marking schemes will cross all limits

3. Pls propose the forumla for standardizing across the board. UP board makes tough Maths paper and grading is also tough, where as in MH board busload of people get 100 marks. How do you standardize across the boards?

6. Interview = corruption + Nepotism only. Bad idea

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 24 Dec 2009 09:31

Rahul Mehta wrote: Pls do read Tanaji's post, to which my question was referring to. Tanaji is cursing the "system". The system by definition is creation of legislations, Govt Orders and other administrative decisions. So if one is cursing system, then he is making statement that legislations, GOs etc that created the system is flawed. So if one curses that "system has failed", then burden to point out which GOs are bad is on him.

Mehta ji, The system also includes the mindset and attitude of the people who are in it - we are talking of a system made of humans, not of computer microprocessors. Legislation does not change that.

Rahul Mehta wrote: So how do you say that fault is of system? It may be that market wants implementers more than innovators and so students prefer to become implementers than innovators.

wow! Fascinating logic. The market will always wants more labourers than designers - does that mean we should stop educating architects and focus on coolie-giri? The people I am talking about in my post above are not abduls with mango-level education who are looking to fill a cubicle after getting a NIIT diploma. They come armed with all sorts of hoity-toity resumes and degrees from top Indian universities - Make no mistake, they are looking to rise high and become mighty. Yet they lack the very thing which will allow them to have a better than average shot at doing so namely, Thinking Independently.

Rahul Mehta wrote: In India, a large number of positions in industry is filled with nepotism and not by merit. So pie is small, and pie available for meritorious is even smaller, and so merit has to work hard to prove itself in exams to get top slot. In US, a mediocre student knows that even if he cant prove himself in exam, he can still can get opportunity in field where he can prove himself and ascend. So US student focuses on his interests more than exams. IOW, in India, given the administration promotes nepotism in Govt as well as private sectors, the race to excel in exams (for those who dont have uncles at high places) is intense.

hmm....so by your logic, we should either slog for exams or think independently/innovate - but not do both at the same time. Please explain this wonderful logic to me? Also, if you feel that being solely an implementer is what you are entitled to after the Govt. has spent crores educating you, please discourage people who think like you from applying to IITs coz our country is quite poor and would be better off not providing such top notch education and wasting precious money on folks whose goal in life is to be a coder of the same skill level as an NIIT diploma holder. High quality education is completely wasted on such folks.

BTW the students I mentioned are all in US with access to the same "luxurious" pie as the US student - what prevents them from doing the same as your US student? It is the mindset which has to change. Blaming the industry, government etc. is just a sorry excuse.

Rahul Mehta wrote: But all these factors are fairy tales to you, and only think you can curse is manasikta of us bad bad people.

Your manasikta has been exposed time and again on this forum. Someone who claims to be a product of India's top school and one of US's top universities but is not only ignorant of technical facts that he debates but refuses to educate himself - if that is the manasikta that is being inculcated then it is something to curse (luckily I dont think the situation is that bad!).

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 24 Dec 2009 13:35

Teaching people to innovate can be done at the undergrad level. It does not need elaborate rejiggering of qualifying criteria for exams, rather students should be required to turn in one ambiguous and open ended project every year. Some fields of studies may have to become more inter-disciplinary to enable students to tackle the really interesting problems.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 24 Dec 2009 13:47

Exactly. Nobody is suggesting that do away with all exams - that is not possible. However, the teaching and learning must look beyond exams. In some ways we are still stuck in the days of the British Raj when the purpose of higher education in India was to merely turn out hordes of English speaking clerks to serve the British.